WEBVTT

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you

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what's up? Not too much. How are you? Good. Good. Then guys getting ready for the holidays.

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Yes, we're, we're trying the kids, the youngest just got sick. So he's trying to pass it to

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everybody. So we're, we're in that fun little phase. Yeah, it's the you get sick the most,

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the more kids. I just noticed. It's insane. Yeah, it's insane. They have no way. So again,

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I'm trying to, I found some good mechanisms for all to start elderberry tea, like all the vitamin

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C that I can just trying to prevent it. It's like I was, it's gotten better. They get sick

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less frequently, and your immune system starts to build up. But yeah, not always fun.

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It's that time of year for sure. It is. That's good. Hello. Hello. Hello. Good morning.

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I'll let everybody get on here. Well, and so Chris is Chris, Chris is like our, I guess I'd say like

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helping me run all of our agency. Like he's kind of head of product or maybe like chief product

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officer. If there was, I think it's the title we gave him. And, and then Zan just jumped on

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Zan's one of our product people has helped works with our developers. And we've got two or three

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other people that will jump on. But we thought we would just get as many people on as possible.

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And then kind of all learn it and upgrade at the same time. So excited about it. Yeah.

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For sure. All right. So you let me know first once. I think this is close to everybody.

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Yeah. Six. I think it was six total. What's up, Carolina? Well, I think Janata is coming.

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Yeah. He's most important person. Luchin. I'm just kidding. No. You've got a beautiful beard.

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Got a beautiful beard. Love that beard. Luchin is in from Canada and has, he's our lead developer,

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all these things. So good to get. And then Janata also have, he's,

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Janata has been helping us work with Chris Monely on a lot of our custom mobile apps and some of our

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platforms as well from Brazil. So it kind of all spread out all over the place.

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Very nice. Are you in? You're not in Texas. Drew, are you? Me? No, I'm in Orlando, Florida.

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Orlando. That's right. I know you're, you're East Coast. Chris in Atlanta. I'm in Nashville.

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Carolina's in Texas. So we're all spread out. I grew up in Lakeland, though. Drew. Okay,

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nice. Where I grew up from. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. No, it's not far at all. Yeah. My mother-in-law,

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she lives out there over like winter havens, like close, close to that area.

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Very cool. Okay, I'm gonna. Yeah, you can jump into whatever you want. I'll just say like,

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guys, thanks for showing up. I know this is like, we're going to do a nice,

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we're very light meetings. So doing a three hour intensive, this is like the most we'll

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be hanging out together in a long time. That's great. And then, yeah, I'm really excited. I've

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been following, if you guys aren't following Drew on X, obviously go do that. Sign up for his

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newsletter, some awesome content. There's a few people that are, you know, that are

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some awesome content. There's a few people that are taking shape up and also combining it with

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like agency world as well. So we've been kind of in that weird spot. And so when I saw what Drew

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was doing, I was like, this is exactly kind of the niche we're trying to figure out. So

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appreciate you guys all taking time, but I'm excited to learn from Drew. And you can take

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it away however you guys want to go through it. Drew, we're ready to learn. So sweet.

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Okay. Awesome. Yeah, I put so you can see there's a link in chat. I threw that for just

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the FigJam board. This will kind of guide us through it. I'm thinking, so we'll start with

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just kind of high level. I'll give a little background on myself. I'd love to hear just

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like short interest from everybody that we just kind of talked a little bit, but just sort of

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what your role is, kind of what you focus on. The thing I want to talk about here is like,

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this is three hours. It's a long time. We're going to go deep on stuff. I don't want to stay in like

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a lot of theory. I'd love to see your process, like the more context that I can understand around,

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like, what does a pitch document look like? How do you take something from trying to find what

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the problem is up front to creating this pitch document, handing it off, going through this

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process. So the thing about me that you'll learn is like, I'm very.

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big on principles first, because as you know, it's like shape up is great, but it also applies

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to a product company that operates in a very specific way.

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So as I've had to implement this over the past five years, and that can get into a little

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bit of my background, because that might help here.

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So I've been building software for almost 18 years now at this point, started in design,

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moved into software engineering, and then got into more leading teams.

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I still write code, I still design, I still like to do strategic work, been working at

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Currentplace, which is an agency called Differential, I'm chief product officer there.

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I've worked in startups and enterprises, our agency builds for clients, but we also have

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our own side of the business where we try and turn those into ventures.

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So we have SaaS products.

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So over the past five years, I've had to implement shape up, kind of find our expression of the

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framework across our software agency, client product teams, as well as on the SaaS side.

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So this is where I really believe heavily in principles, because those are more timeless,

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they're evergreen, they're things that we can apply more broadly.

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So that's mostly what I think about when I think about shape up is kind of the larger

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zoomed out area of these key principles to go through.

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And when I got all of your survey feedback, which thanks for taking the time to fill that

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out, they fit into those buckets too.

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So I'll kind of walk through what that looks like before we get into each of the sections

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and kind of talk about it as an overview.

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But in general, really interested in going deep on things like, I don't want to just

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sit up here and just present and talk.

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I want to learn, listen, like, let's look at some things that you're actually going

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through, projects you've actually worked on.

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Because the best way to understand the process is to understand decisions that were made,

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the trade-offs that were made, the pain points.

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And you guys had a lot of examples in your survey that you called out that I think we

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can go deep on.

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So before I get into that, we'll get this kind of all situated, but I would love to

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get just like even just 30 second kind of elevator, hello, and give me a little quick

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run through of like what you do kind of in the day to day would be super helpful for

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me.

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And Bruce just gave me a little flyover, but I'd love to hear that from everybody.

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I'll just call out who I see in order on my list.

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So Chris, if you could kick us off, that'd be great.

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Yeah.

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So as Bruce said, I guess, chief product officer, mainly just trying to go from project

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to project, implement our process, make sure that things are running smoothly.

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And I'm just lucky to work with so many talented people.

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So it makes my job a lot easier.

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But I think for me, what I'm interested in getting out of today is, you know, I'm

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always reading about best practices, different things from Substack or from Twitter or

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whatever.

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And it's hard to kind of make sure that we do it the right way, do it our way.

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Right.

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It's not just, you know, copy, paste, lift, shift, we're done.

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Right.

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Making sure that we follow up, we measure.

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I think Caroline and I work very closely together.

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Well, when we meet, when we can meet on trying to talk about, hey, how does this actually

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work when the rubber meets the road?

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And sometimes it works great.

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And sometimes like, well, we got to rethink this.

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And how do we kind of recover and get back to that instead of just being ruled by the

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tyranny of daily?

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So I guess that's kind of kind of where I sit.

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I've got a background just briefly in consulting.

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I have a law degree, which is kind of weird, just out there.

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So I like to write stuff.

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Right.

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But also I've got a lot of experience in startups and just kind of just starting things,

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instigating things.

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So that's kind of where I take things, just being autonomous, moving quickly and just

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running rapid experiments.

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So thanks.

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Awesome.

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Love it.

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Appreciate that.

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Giannola?

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Hey, so I'm a fan of the shape of method.

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Since I've discovered, I like kind of dive right in because after like a few years running

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with the overall general Scrum method, it felt like refreshing.

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And I think the most important part is that it feels a lot more adaptive.

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So you can adapt it easier.

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And I think probably that's what I would like to kind of learn the most to like understand

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how can we adapt and what are the parts that shouldn't be adapted?

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Like what are the parts that we should avoid changing and what are the parts that are more

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flexible and that we should look into changing and adapt to our scenarios?

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Because I think in terms of mastery, first you have to master the process as is.

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And then you are able to make the adaptations that you need for your personal scenario.

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So that's what I'm most curious about how you think about it.

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I'm also a follower of your newsletter.

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I was just reading the last issue.

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I believe it was 14.

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about like design thinking and first principles thinking.

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And it's just it, like, it's just what you said.

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It's like, we can like get to focus on like methodology

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without looking at what's the essence

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of what's being done there.

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Because if you understand the essence,

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then it becomes a lot easier to move further.

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So my goal is basically to kind of download

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a little bit of how you think to understand that

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and to be able to adapt to how we approach things as well.

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So I believe that that's the, my view about it.

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Yeah.

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That's awesome.

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No, I love that.

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And I've actually, I've had a lot of experiences

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with teams at Differential where they've told me

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they don't, they feel a lot of pressure

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that they are not following the process.

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But then when I just started asking them questions

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about what they're fundamentally doing,

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I'm like, you are following the process.

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You're just little nuances that are different,

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but it's like, fundamentally,

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are you bubbling up to follow this principle?

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Like that's what matters.

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And I think that's hopefully what we all come

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through with today.

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It's finding, I would say, find your expression.

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Tape up's a way of thinking it's a mental model,

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but we have to apply it uniquely to your team

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so that matches what you're trying to do.

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And I think that's huge.

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Perfect, perfect.

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Thank you.

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Awesome.

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Appreciate it.

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All right, Zan.

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Hey, yeah.

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So yeah, my name is Zan.

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So I'm coming from more of a startup environment.

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So I started there and went through accelerators

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like Techstars and similar stuff,

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which they, it's not so much about how they teach you

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about managing project.

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It's more about, okay, here's the problem

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through everything at it, right?

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So I'm now more in the, and for example,

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shape up for me is like trying to get somewhere

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in the middle, right?

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So from this hardcore startup,

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everything has to be done by yesterday

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to some of the hardcore management,

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which is also slow, right?

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So this is where it's like somewhere in the middle,

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which is where I'm currently at also in the mindset.

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And that's, I think where, yeah,

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this is something I think that this tool as a shape up

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or like methodology coming in my space.

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I don't know.

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I'm just like, as I joined, I think Bruce,

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we started working, I don't know,

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probably now eight months ago.

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So I've been here in that mindset set,

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like slowly, slowly adapting it with that, but yeah.

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And yeah, I'm coming here as a role.

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I don't have directly,

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I don't communicate directly with customers.

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I'm more as a bridge between like when project

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is shaped up, I don't know, 80, 90%,

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we, me and the developer that I work with

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or two, we finish it up, prototype last things,

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and then we take it from there.

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So that's currently where we're at.

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So I'm not directly with the customer.

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I'm more with the product manager in that case, Carolina.

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So yeah.

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Awesome.

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Cool.

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Appreciate it.

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Carolina.

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Hi, I'm Carolina.

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I work as the product person

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for the tribe social side of the business.

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So work closely with Zahn

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and getting new features out the door

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getting, you know, taking the brainchild ideas from Bruce

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and getting them shaped and making some of those decisions

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on where things go, how they work, things like that.

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So.

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Awesome.

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Thank you.

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All right, Lurchin, wrap us up.

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What's up, what's up, what's up?

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Great to be here.

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I'm the lead developer.

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I've been with the tribe social for like a few years

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before that I was doing freelance development

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and like some of the background of like,

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I really love a shape up.

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And to me, it's connected to a big influence for me

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was a Tiago Forte, like building a second brain,

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knowledge management, all of that kind of stuff.

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So, cause like we're at the end of the day,

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knowledge workers.

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So having a good skillset around like managing the knowledge

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makes it like really feel like less rushed

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and like we're in control

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and like we understand what needs to be done

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and just we're getting shit done consistently.

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So, what I'm looking for today is just to like expand on like feeling really open to

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like learn as much as I can.

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And I think we do pretty good.

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But like, I'm very curious, like free up blind spots or like how we can improve.

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So really looking forward to, to what we can learn and what we can share.

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Awesome.

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Actually, Bruce, I mean, I skipped you, but I've heard that you can do it again, get your

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The only thing I would say just for context is we, we kind of have organized ourselves

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into two teams.

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So we have like our Innovo developers, that's doing customer agency world.

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And that's what Chris is kind of helping run and oversee all those projects.

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And then we have tribe, which is a smaller team, Zan, Lurch and Carolina are really the

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focusing on that.

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And then we're kind of leveraging like, Chris is helping Carolina stuff, I'm like, we're

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kind of cross sharing resources across those teams.

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But that's we've kind of got to two sides of the business together today.

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For this, we're all using the same processes, just kind of in different places.

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So the only we just kind of turned tribe social to where like, I kind of play the client role.

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And then instead of having an external client, but it's still kind of the same process.

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So

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Okay.

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Okay, then tell me, so you mentioned, so with Chris on the Innovo side for agency, who else

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is involved, like from a development perspective with that side?

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So Janata, mainly, and Lurch is kind of helping on the tech side.

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And then we've got other contractors and stuff we work with.

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But this is kind of our core team that as far as the shaping and product management

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side goes, this is everybody touches that.

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Okay, awesome.

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Yeah.

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So those those nuances are super helpful.

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So I'll ask a bunch of questions to get clarifying, just context on those pieces.

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I fully understand the managing resources and client projects and all that stuff.

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This totally can work there.

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But they're obviously, again, these are the nuances that we have to wrestle with.

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So before I get into some of those questions, I want to call out and I'm just gonna share

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my screen make it easy, but everybody looks like they're in here too.

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So when I went through the survey, I was trying to figure out kind of groupings and what things

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look like.

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And when I think about like, this product development in general, and shape up specifically how it

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applies to that.

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It's really these three core phases of framing, shaping and building.

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Framing is an interesting one that I think Ryan senior sort of discovered later on, because

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a lot of people kept saying, well, shaping is cool, but like, how do you know you're

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shaping the right thing?

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Or how do you pick the right thing to shape?

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And the thing I always say is that all the stuff downstream relies on that upfront problem

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context, the better the problem context, the better the product decisions, those things

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are intrinsically linked, like you have to have deep context in order to make good, straight

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off decisions downstream.

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So you'll see a lot of problems where you're having trouble potentially hammering scope,

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changing scope, if you don't have a clear context problem.

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So I wouldn't say like the solution space is great, but as the team gets better at delivering

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on the work, taking those pitches, really the problem context is what's most important.

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And I found that like on zero to one products, which is what I spend most of my time on with

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new team members, like we can't really shape a lot because of the brand new code base,

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which is difficult.

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But what I spend a lot of time on is like, how much can I pull and get a problem there

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and just hand them a problem statement, and we'll kind of shape the solution rapidly while

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they're actually building the work.

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So you can think about it like you're in the problem space, you're in the solution space,

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or you're in sort of the delivery space.

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So each of these I pulled out, and if you haven't heard my spiel on this, and I can

305
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send stuff before, but I kind of abstract these five key principles of shape up.

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It's appetites, not estimates, projects, not tasks, make bets, work in cycles, uninterrupted

307
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focused work and fixed time variable scope.

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Like the whole book of kind of like Cliff's notes version, it's sort of those five key

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things.

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And those are the principles that I pull out and everything kind of bubbled up to those.

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So when I thought about on the framing side, this is where you're in the appetites, not

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estimates.

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You're thinking about reversing this problem that software development has, where we're

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trying to focus exclusively on how much time is this going to take, but you don't really

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know anything until you actually do the work, no matter how many times you do development

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work, even if it feels like it's the same thing, there's enough complexity that you

317
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just never really know until you do that work.

318
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So you just have to lean into that and scope becomes that lever.

319
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So appetites are constraints.

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They force those creative solutions.

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So you have to understand those root causes.

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And some of the survey talked about like, how do we translate customer problems, understanding

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actual root cause so that we can shape the right thing or going deeper into kind of a

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user research customer space.

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So that's a good spot for us that we'll start there, but I kind of want to walk through

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these, but I think that's a good place.

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So I think, you know, deeply understand the root causes of customer pain points before

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shaping.

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So like framing work, setting constraints, reducing the service area, having like a very

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clear problem definition.

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There's a lot of tactics and techniques there.

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So we can dig into that side.

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That's problem space.

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Then we shift into, okay, we're shaping.

335
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We know we have an opportunity here.

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We know there's a problem that needs to be solved that we're now in projects, not tasks.

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We're not cutting up tasks for developers ahead of time because that's all just imagined

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work.

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know that what it looks like until we do it.

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341
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So you have to create the consistency and clarity

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and pitches so that work can be handed off effectively.

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And I think there was a lot of some of the feedback

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talked about there being,

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depending on what the boundaries look like,

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knowing when something's fully shaped,

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which, you know, a lot of this is more art than science,

348
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but that doesn't mean that there aren't tactics

349
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and techniques that we can apply

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to make that a little bit more clear.

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So I think that's kind of the shaping area.

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Then we're moving into delivery.

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We're shifting things over into this building phase.

354
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So we're in kind of,

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we're making some bets on work to be done.

356
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We're working in these iterative cycles.

357
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And this is another great example

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of the whole shape up thing.

359
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You know, they're big, big batches, six weeks,

360
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and a small batch is one to two.

361
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It doesn't, you can pick whatever you want.

362
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I mean, even Brian Singer,

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like I've even seen him lately say this.

364
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It's just like, yeah, some teams want to do four weeks.

365
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Like, okay, that's fine.

366
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Like it doesn't, ultimately it doesn't matter

367
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because the principle is,

368
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are you working in some iterative cycle

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where that gives you enough time to do meaningful work

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on a cadence that works for your team

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and you're betting that time.

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Like that's what really matters.

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So making sure that time and resources are being managed,

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which this was definitely some feedback in the survey,

375
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obviously with agency work,

376
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with sharing resources across teams and across a product,

377
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that's kind of a space we could talk about.

378
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And then uninterrupted focus work.

379
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So obviously like the requirement

380
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is making sure that there's focus there.

381
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So I think this bleeds a little bit into resources

382
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and making sure that there's focused time.

383
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And another thing you'll hear from me a lot too,

384
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is like, I'm a big believer,

385
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.040
and Alucian, you kind of said it just about,

386
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you know, personal knowledge management.

387
00:21:25.560 --> 00:21:27.520
I'm also a big believer in like the personal development,

388
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like individually, you have to operate well

389
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and manage your time well,

390
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and track your time and write things down

391
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in order to work collectively as a team well.

392
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So like, I believe in that a lot too.

393
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So that really feeds into it.

394
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And then last piece is obviously fixed time,

395
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variable scope.

396
00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:41.760
That's the ultimate control point.

397
00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:45.800
That's the main lever inside of ShapeUp is,

398
00:21:45.800 --> 00:21:46.760
hey, we're fixing the time.

399
00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:48.600
You only have X amount of weeks to do this work,

400
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but you can change the scope.

401
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:51.680
You can make decisions.

402
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.560
All of that's predicated on this work that preceded it.

403
00:21:54.560 --> 00:21:56.600
So this is really where the empowerment comes from

404
00:21:56.600 --> 00:21:57.960
and those trade-off decisions.

405
00:21:57.960 --> 00:21:58.800
This is the fun part,

406
00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:00.840
but it takes the team really working together,

407
00:22:00.840 --> 00:22:03.120
thinking out loud, a lot of those different principles.

408
00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:05.160
And I have some other stuff we can jump into there.

409
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.040
So just wanted to zoom out, Elise,

410
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and say from a survey perspective,

411
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.400
this is kind of how I bucketed it out.

412
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And then you can see over on the side here,

413
00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:17.160
I just put those in the same kind of pipeline,

414
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:18.200
because when I went through all of,

415
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:19.960
what I did originally is I took all the feedback,

416
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.040
stickied it out, put it in all these buckets

417
00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:24.120
because they kind of fit in there neatly, which was good.

418
00:22:24.120 --> 00:22:25.240
So we can flow through this,

419
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.040
kind of thinking it from the beginning to end

420
00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:28.440
and we'll kind of hit it along the way.

421
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:33.160
So let's start in sort of the framing space.

422
00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.000
So like we're in problem space here.

423
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.880
So my question would be,

424
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:38.240
and this is just open question to everybody,

425
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.920
just kind of like, how do things start?

426
00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:43.120
Like what's the genesis of a lot of projects,

427
00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:45.400
whether it's, and we can kind of treat it on both sides

428
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:47.600
or just kind of talk holistically.

429
00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:51.520
What does that look like in terms of framing up problems,

430
00:22:51.520 --> 00:22:52.920
how you're obviously on the tribe side,

431
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:53.760
it sounds like, you know,

432
00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:55.720
sort of the typical product work of user research

433
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:57.960
on the Innovo agency side, it's more of like a client,

434
00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:59.520
but I'd love to hear just like,

435
00:22:59.520 --> 00:23:01.760
kind of walk me through some of those nuances.

436
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.400
Oh, I can start a little bit.

437
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.440
So it's funny because it's a spectrum, right?

438
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.600
So sometimes we're very fortunate

439
00:23:12.600 --> 00:23:16.400
and I would say this has happened maybe twice in my life.

440
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.000
And first was here in Innovo,

441
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.360
but we had a client come to us and there's this massive,

442
00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:23.360
it's like 78 page document.

443
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:25.600
And it was literally written out like,

444
00:23:25.600 --> 00:23:27.760
kind of like a blueprint of how to build it.

445
00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:31.040
And it's tempting in that respect

446
00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:32.760
to just kind of lift and shift and just, all right,

447
00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:33.760
we're done, we don't need a shape,

448
00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:36.880
just spit stuff onto the page and we're good, you know?

449
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.840
Maybe it gets chat GPT to kind of, you know,

450
00:23:38.840 --> 00:23:42.120
shape it up a little bit from a verbiage perspective,

451
00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:44.360
but really thinking through, it's like, it's not just,

452
00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:47.360
hey, the client gave me this, we're already a leg up,

453
00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:48.520
but how do we actually make this

454
00:23:48.520 --> 00:23:51.280
so that it's functional and thoughtful?

455
00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:52.560
And just because they gave it to us

456
00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:56.120
doesn't mean they're actually good at shaping, right?

457
00:23:56.120 --> 00:23:58.600
So it's kind of like an old product requirements document,

458
00:23:58.600 --> 00:23:59.440
if you will.

459
00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:02.520
So I think there's that, and on the other end,

460
00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:03.600
there are folks who are just saying,

461
00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:06.800
well, I've got an idea, I want this to be a result

462
00:24:06.800 --> 00:24:08.960
and we get to be more maybe creative, right?

463
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.000
And they kind of have a little bit more,

464
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:11.880
I don't wanna say autonomy,

465
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.640
but we are looked to as the experts to do this, right?

466
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.720
And so there's of course stuff in between,

467
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.760
but I think that's where a lot of ideas come in

468
00:24:21.760 --> 00:24:24.480
and then at least in my world,

469
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:29.360
getting from concept to that first prototype

470
00:24:29.360 --> 00:24:31.040
is really exciting for me,

471
00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:32.800
working with someone like Janata

472
00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:34.880
or I've worked with that in the past too,

473
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:36.160
and of course Lucian,

474
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.680
just getting their feedback on things, right?

475
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.200
Saying feasibility and what's that first step

476
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:44.120
in prioritizing really helps sharpen my thinking.

477
00:24:44.120 --> 00:24:47.480
So from my end of things, that's kind of what I see.

478
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.360
So would you say that like typically

479
00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:53.840
things are coming in with a more fixed scope,

480
00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:56.240
fixed requirements from the client side?

481
00:24:57.560 --> 00:24:59.000
I think that's fair to say.

482
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.400
Yeah, we definitely have a.

483
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.640
timeline for delivery, and I think we've gotten better

484
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:06.480
at saying no, right, and making things smaller

485
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:08.120
so they fit the appetite better.

486
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:10.680
Okay, yeah, no, that's helpful.

487
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.040
Yeah, I mean, that's what my experience has been.

488
00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:14.840
It's typically, it's fixed time, fixed scope

489
00:25:14.840 --> 00:25:17.280
is pretty common is what it comes in as,

490
00:25:17.280 --> 00:25:19.120
and then it just takes a lot of coaching

491
00:25:19.120 --> 00:25:22.040
and understanding that that's just not how software works,

492
00:25:22.040 --> 00:25:24.520
so let's get this delivered on time.

493
00:25:24.520 --> 00:25:26.320
And the thing that's difficult is a lot of people

494
00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.160
realize any idea anybody has,

495
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.680
it naturally goes through an evolution.

496
00:25:30.360 --> 00:25:32.560
It never ends up the end the way that you thought it would.

497
00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:34.080
Like, that's just not how anything works.

498
00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:37.000
Like, the analogy I always use is like concept cars,

499
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.320
like in the auto industry,

500
00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:39.400
they always roll out a concept car.

501
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:41.040
It never quite looks like the end product,

502
00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:43.120
but it gives you a sense of like visual aesthetics

503
00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:46.320
and feel that can tell you what that would look like.

504
00:25:46.320 --> 00:25:48.160
So even if you do high fidelity type work,

505
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:49.280
it's more just concepting,

506
00:25:49.280 --> 00:25:50.760
like this is what it could look like,

507
00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:52.160
but understand that's gonna come out different.

508
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.880
I mean, they do it in movies too, concept art,

509
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.040
like it doesn't end up looking exactly like that.

510
00:25:56.040 --> 00:25:58.120
They tweak it once they get in there.

511
00:25:58.120 --> 00:25:58.960
So I think it's like,

512
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.480
you have to reframe that thinking a little bit.

513
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:05.360
So is there a tension with getting them towards,

514
00:26:05.360 --> 00:26:06.680
okay, well now we have all this stuff,

515
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:08.160
but now we actually need to shape it

516
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:10.000
and approach it in a different way.

517
00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:13.640
I think just from a recent project,

518
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:18.360
there were a lot of different connected parts

519
00:26:18.360 --> 00:26:20.120
to make the whole thing.

520
00:26:20.120 --> 00:26:21.920
You're trying to build a Tesla, right?

521
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.040
You can't start at Tesla.

522
00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:25.560
You start with skateboard, like just that analogy.

523
00:26:25.560 --> 00:26:29.680
And so I think educating, working with that client

524
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:30.520
to understand that,

525
00:26:30.520 --> 00:26:32.680
hey, we got to build this little piece first

526
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:34.200
and ask to work as a complete system

527
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.000
before we can expand and add other things.

528
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.400
And as we've gone along and we've built that rapport

529
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.280
and that confidence with that customer,

530
00:26:42.280 --> 00:26:43.320
they've kind of said, okay, great.

531
00:26:43.320 --> 00:26:45.280
I'm gonna not hold and grip so tightly

532
00:26:45.280 --> 00:26:46.720
and just kind of let you do your thing.

533
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.520
And that's been super helpful to do that

534
00:26:49.520 --> 00:26:52.520
and cut things out that don't need to be in place on day one.

535
00:26:52.520 --> 00:26:54.680
And I think I've learned a lot from Bruce actually

536
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.400
in how he kind of finesses that point too.

537
00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:58.440
So, yeah.

538
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.160
How to say no to the client.

539
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.240
Exactly.

540
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:02.080
And-

541
00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:02.920
There's an art.

542
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:04.280
Or not yet, right?

543
00:27:04.280 --> 00:27:05.240
Or not yet.

544
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:07.400
And I'll just say for that particular project,

545
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.560
for some other context is like,

546
00:27:09.560 --> 00:27:12.240
clients come to us for a discovery project.

547
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.480
And so we spent two weeks kind of looking

548
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:15.760
at like everything they want to do.

549
00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.840
And we sort of just sketch out blueprints.

550
00:27:18.840 --> 00:27:21.480
So like, hey, there's probably two projects here

551
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:22.320
that are six weeks.

552
00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:24.600
There's probably a project here that's a few weeks.

553
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.520
They sent us this like, I don't know, 30, 40 page document.

554
00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:29.920
I can't remember how extensive it was.

555
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.680
And we turned that into about 80 weeks worth

556
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.400
of shaped stuff.

557
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.000
So we kind of shaped everything about 30, 40%

558
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:38.920
enough to be like, I think this is six weeks.

559
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.000
I think this is, you know, instead of two.

560
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:43.360
So we kind of could go to them and be like,

561
00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:45.360
cool, we can do everything you want.

562
00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:48.640
It's gonna take 80 weeks and cost X.

563
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:51.480
And so they wanted us to just go

564
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:52.560
and start chipping away at it.

565
00:27:52.560 --> 00:27:53.400
So we're like, no, no, no.

566
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:55.640
We have to put it in an order where it makes sense.

567
00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:58.640
So we can like, we can have something usable at each stage.

568
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:01.840
And so then what we do is we just pick like a velocity

569
00:28:01.840 --> 00:28:03.840
of like, cool, they want to go at four weeks a month

570
00:28:03.840 --> 00:28:05.400
or eight weeks a month.

571
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.520
And we just roll, you know, on that and kind of chip away,

572
00:28:08.520 --> 00:28:10.280
kind of figuring out what we're gonna do the next month.

573
00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:13.560
So we're constantly like in discussions with the client

574
00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:15.640
for each month that's coming up.

575
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:17.280
But like Chris said, like in the beginning,

576
00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:19.800
it was like, they wanted us to do, you know,

577
00:28:19.800 --> 00:28:21.440
just go build it for a year

578
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:23.080
and then come back when it's finished.

579
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:26.120
And then our version is like, let's build it slowly

580
00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:28.600
and iterative like throughout the whole process, so.

581
00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:30.800
Okay, now that's interesting.

582
00:28:30.800 --> 00:28:34.000
Yes, it sounds like there's,

583
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.440
so then when you start new projects,

584
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:38.280
so this is something I'll just call it, we have,

585
00:28:38.280 --> 00:28:41.440
is like, I have some teams that are standard iterative.

586
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:43.440
Like I set a cycle calendar for the year.

587
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.880
So it's like six full cycles and a year

588
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:46.880
basically is how it lines up.

589
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.880
If you do a six week cycle, a two week cool down.

590
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.000
And then there's always like right now,

591
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:51.560
they're all in the end of year cycle,

592
00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:53.760
which is usually like a four week end of the year

593
00:28:53.760 --> 00:28:55.240
before we kick off next year.

594
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:56.520
But I always work on the new projects.

595
00:28:56.520 --> 00:28:57.920
They are never on this timeline.

596
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.120
Cause like, we can't say we don't delay clients

597
00:29:00.120 --> 00:29:02.040
to start to line up neatly with those

598
00:29:02.040 --> 00:29:03.680
if we're in the middle of a current cycle.

599
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.360
So I guess that was my question with

600
00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:07.840
like kind of how between Anovo and Tribe,

601
00:29:07.840 --> 00:29:09.960
like, is there any like cycle,

602
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:11.120
are the cycles lined up at all?

603
00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:12.080
Are the cadences lined up?

604
00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:12.920
Or is it unique?

605
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:13.920
What does that look like?

606
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.600
Everything is kind of on a monthly cadence, I would say.

607
00:29:16.600 --> 00:29:20.920
So there's not any gaps, which is probably a problem,

608
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.160
but it's just really like calendar months

609
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:26.840
has been the easiest way to just keep the billing recurring

610
00:29:26.840 --> 00:29:28.920
and everything kind of from a business standpoint

611
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:29.760
has been easier.

612
00:29:31.280 --> 00:29:32.120
Okay.

613
00:29:32.120 --> 00:29:32.960
So when you said there's no gaps,

614
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.800
like, you know, there's no like a,

615
00:29:33.800 --> 00:29:35.960
like a dedicated cool down period between,

616
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:37.400
it just goes month to month?

617
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:38.240
Just.

618
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:39.720
Okay.

619
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:40.640
Just keep running the race.

620
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:41.720
No, no breaks.

621
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.400
Yep.

622
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:45.240
Now I get it.

623
00:29:48.600 --> 00:29:49.440
Okay.

624
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:52.760
Okay.

625
00:29:52.760 --> 00:29:53.600
That's good to know.

626
00:29:53.600 --> 00:29:55.600
And one thing on the Tribe,

627
00:29:55.600 --> 00:29:58.040
like we do have clients in Tribe

628
00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:00.240
who are kind of our partner level clients.

629
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:06.320
clients. So they are sponsoring and paying for specific features. So I wouldn't worry too much

630
00:30:06.320 --> 00:30:10.560
about the distinction between the two. They're just, there is slightly subtle differences, but

631
00:30:10.560 --> 00:30:15.760
they're still clients who are like asking for features in Tribe like they would, you know,

632
00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:20.240
on their own projects. So it's kind of the similar problems on both sides, I would say.

633
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:29.120
Okay. So I don't know if it's helpful. Typically what I'll do is like if there's new,

634
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:36.400
if I'm working on a new project, I kind of, it operates under the same principles. I don't do

635
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.520
like a neat, like clean, sort of here it's following an exact six weeks and it's just

636
00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:45.920
milestones. So I kind of time box it to releases. So like when we just did a zero to one, it's like,

637
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:51.200
okay, let's do a core build and it's eight weeks in total. And then I kind of just break out little

638
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:56.640
projects that'll map on that timeline on sort of a Gantt chart. Then do, so I create a project plan

639
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:01.120
for the whole thing. So it's a six month project. What are the three milestones that map to releases?

640
00:31:01.120 --> 00:31:04.400
And then I kind of back in small features. So it sounds like you're kind of getting in that

641
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.160
same place. You're taking their big thing and showing them, let's break it down into smaller

642
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.920
individual projects that have some constraints, some appetite on it, that map. And then, so would

643
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:19.840
you never go longer than four weeks on an individual project or feature? Yeah. We're

644
00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:25.760
kind of stuck in the one to two week hell at the moment. Like everything's just short little bursts

645
00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:32.880
of quick fixes. We've done, we started to add, I think for the project Chris

646
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.840
and John are working on, they're in kind of more four weeks, but yeah, it's kind of stuck around

647
00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:44.640
that. Or if it's a six week and from a billing standpoint, we have to keep it in a monthly cadence.

648
00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:51.120
Then we'll do like a part one of the six for three weeks and then a part two for the other

649
00:31:51.120 --> 00:31:58.720
three week, like break it up like that. But we kind of having them put money or like the payment

650
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:04.000
using that as a, has been a massively helpful tool because everybody wants everything when it's all

651
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.200
free. But as soon as you start putting dollar signs by it, clients get much more clarity on

652
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:15.120
like what actually they want and how fast they want to go. So that's been a, we've used that

653
00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:22.800
as a tool to help keep them like focused and kind of in the flow of it. And they're kind of

654
00:32:22.800 --> 00:32:29.680
all running their businesses monthly. So it made sense for us to kind of shift to that. So anyway,

655
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:34.320
and I'm not against like switching to a six week or changing up the cadence. Like we're open to

656
00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:41.680
ideas. So we definitely, I know for a fact we need to cool down of some kind. So for sure.

657
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.400
Yeah. Yeah. The cool down, the cool down is interesting too. Cause we kind of, we found

658
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.320
like we do them, but then we had early on, a lot of it was bleeding into the cool down. So then

659
00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:54.000
that had to, we had to learn, okay, you got to tighten things up a little bit more in the

660
00:32:55.440 --> 00:33:00.640
actual cycle itself. We are. So we also started shifting like all of the like process things.

661
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.400
It was like nothing happened in those six weeks, shove it all into the cool down. But then that

662
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.320
also starts to balloon it too. And then you shrink the amount of time developers actually get to

663
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.160
the reason it's important is like, well, fixed improvements are part of it, but it's like,

664
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.840
if you're going to shave scope off and feel good about that, throwing it into a cool down that you

665
00:33:15.840 --> 00:33:19.920
can immediately tackle that on. It feels good. It's a lot better. It's not saying like, Hey,

666
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:23.520
it's on this backlog that we're just never going to get to. It's saying, Hey, it's on the list that

667
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:29.680
we're going to get to in this time walked period following, but you could always experiment with,

668
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:34.480
you know, is it like getting things to like a three week in one week, you know, like finding

669
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.160
some middle ground. And this is the thing I always say too. It's like, just experiment with

670
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.960
it. You don't have, this is the perfect way to do it. It's like finding the expression that works

671
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:46.480
for you. See if there's a way to just incorporate that. Cause that, that part is hard. I think

672
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:50.480
building new features and balancing like maintenance and fixed improvements. So that's

673
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:54.800
kind of another question I have just with sharing resources across products. I got some sense from

674
00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:58.480
survey that that would be definitely a pain point, but like with some of the fixes and improvements

675
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:03.520
type work, is that something that's just sort of got to be reactive and you get pulled off the

676
00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:17.840
feature to go tackle or what does that look like? Again, I guess I'll speak up. So yes and no. I'm

677
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:23.280
fortunate that I can kind of multitask and kind of go from just kind of cataloging features to

678
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.719
some of the reactive work on other projects that I have to look into. I will say it is sort of a,

679
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:34.880
you're shifting your brain. So the shifting focus takes a little bit of time, right? To kind of get

680
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:40.000
back in that ecosystem for that customer and think, Oh yeah, I did this before like three months ago

681
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.239
or whatever, right? As a feature. And now it's coming back as a, Hey, let's tweak this a little

682
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:48.960
bit. Right. So it does take a little bit of time to kind of get back in that mode of, Oh, okay.

683
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:53.040
This is a reactive project for this other client that I'm, I haven't been working on day in day

684
00:34:53.040 --> 00:34:57.360
out and just kind of diving back into it. Right. And kind of reconnecting with that. So it's a bit

685
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.000
of a mind shift. And that's.

686
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.040
been the hardest part, I guess, just for me to reframe that.

687
00:35:06.040 --> 00:35:07.160
OK, that's helpful.

688
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.960
Yeah, I think I'd love to hear from the developers

689
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:24.640
as well on that, because it's a constant tug of war

690
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:27.200
between like, let's do deep work and focus stuff.

691
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:29.320
Oh, wait, this thing is broken, and it's

692
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.640
affecting thousands of users.

693
00:35:31.640 --> 00:35:35.160
So that's been a, we've tried to experiment

694
00:35:35.160 --> 00:35:39.280
with having one developer who's kind of on call for the day.

695
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:41.640
We've not really kept up with that super well.

696
00:35:41.640 --> 00:35:43.560
But that way, like, OK, if one person

697
00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:46.440
is going to get interrupted, it's Lucian on Fridays,

698
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:47.600
it's Bruce on Wednesdays.

699
00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:50.200
Like, we kind of have, we experimented with that.

700
00:35:50.200 --> 00:35:52.560
Something like that would be good, because then we know,

701
00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:56.280
like, OK, one of us has got it.

702
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.040
So I'd be curious about support as well,

703
00:35:58.080 --> 00:36:00.680
how you guys deal with that and having critical bugs come in.

704
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:06.200
Yeah, no, for sure.

705
00:36:06.200 --> 00:36:08.360
Yeah, definitely balancing React work and feature work

706
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.360
is difficult. If we have the capacity,

707
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:13.200
I've always said that the real solve to it, which is just,

708
00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:14.960
it's an easy way to say this is the solve,

709
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.320
but it's have somebody who's dedicated to steady state fixes

710
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.120
and improvements, and they're dealing with it.

711
00:36:20.120 --> 00:36:21.840
Every team that has had the product

712
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.800
get to a state at which there's enough Reactive work happening,

713
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:29.040
we have to have someone reserved to just pay attention to that.

714
00:36:29.040 --> 00:36:32.240
So I think there's strategies you can use where it's,

715
00:36:32.240 --> 00:36:34.640
you have somebody that's on specific feature,

716
00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:36.880
like, if you can't pull, like, a dedicated resource to do it,

717
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.320
it's taking one of those features and identifying one

718
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:42.000
where it's like, this one, like, there's some development work

719
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:44.040
that you really need to break it down deep.

720
00:36:44.040 --> 00:36:46.160
It goes a little bit further, but maybe it's a one-week thing

721
00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:49.440
that's sort of like a two-day fixes and improvement type deal

722
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.560
that you're putting a little bit of extra time into.

723
00:36:51.560 --> 00:36:53.840
So maybe they could, they're doing kind of like

724
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:55.360
the batch fixes and improvements work.

725
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.840
So an example I have is I'll take,

726
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.440
if there's an area of the code base,

727
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.560
and like, I know we will archive the backlogs.

728
00:37:01.560 --> 00:37:02.640
We try and follow that.

729
00:37:02.640 --> 00:37:05.040
It's like, just clear them out cycle to cycle,

730
00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:06.200
get through what we can.

731
00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:08.120
But typically there's like, here are 10 issues

732
00:37:08.120 --> 00:37:10.840
around this specific part of the code base or product.

733
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:12.640
Let's, I'll, like, call them just batches.

734
00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:13.960
So I'll take, like, here are the 10

735
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:14.880
little fixes and improvements.

736
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.720
They're all a day or less of development work

737
00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:18.760
just in terms of how we're constraining it.

738
00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:20.560
Put that in a pitch, essentially,

739
00:37:20.560 --> 00:37:22.920
and that is a feature you can bet on.

740
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.160
So it's one way to do it where you almost like,

741
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:27.920
turn that work into pitches that are feature work.

742
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:29.480
And then that also allows that same person

743
00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:31.520
to deal with the reactive work, potentially.

744
00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:32.680
Just trying to think through, like,

745
00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:34.240
if you can't get somebody dedicated to it

746
00:37:34.240 --> 00:37:35.360
or have a dedicated support,

747
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:38.440
it's just being strategic with which person

748
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:40.680
is working on which feature that allows them

749
00:37:40.680 --> 00:37:43.200
to maybe context switch a little bit.

750
00:37:43.200 --> 00:37:44.560
You just have to be more strategic with it,

751
00:37:44.560 --> 00:37:46.520
but it's really hard.

752
00:37:46.520 --> 00:37:48.080
Cause I mean, it's, this is where like,

753
00:37:48.080 --> 00:37:50.440
the uninterrupted focus work is critical to it.

754
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.880
But I will say, if you're working on smaller sized features

755
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:54.800
from a development perspective,

756
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.920
like if you go to six weeks,

757
00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:00.680
those require a lot of breaking down, more diligence,

758
00:38:00.680 --> 00:38:01.960
but you can also solve some of that

759
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.560
by you go deeper on shaping.

760
00:38:03.560 --> 00:38:06.000
You bring more engineering into the shaping process

761
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.680
to maybe get it a little bit further along,

762
00:38:07.680 --> 00:38:09.200
do some of the uphill work

763
00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:11.360
so that it's a little bit easier once you get downstream.

764
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:13.520
So there's some techniques there,

765
00:38:13.520 --> 00:38:16.160
but that one is just, it's sort of a very difficult one.

766
00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:17.920
Cause even if we, on small teams,

767
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.240
like I always just do it with two developers,

768
00:38:19.240 --> 00:38:20.960
whatever new project that we have.

769
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:23.360
And, you know, we're feature after feature after feature.

770
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:25.080
I have to just start building,

771
00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:28.680
like kind of buckets into the timeline or adding,

772
00:38:28.680 --> 00:38:30.440
like you can still pad appetites.

773
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:31.280
It's like, all right,

774
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:32.120
they're just gonna do a couple of things on this,

775
00:38:32.120 --> 00:38:33.360
but I'm gonna give them a week

776
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.440
cause I know we need to clean up some things

777
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.400
or things end earlier than we thought.

778
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:38.600
And that's your opportunity.

779
00:38:38.600 --> 00:38:40.000
So that one's kind of tricky,

780
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:42.000
especially if you're sharing across

781
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.240
kind of two distinct areas.

782
00:38:43.240 --> 00:38:45.920
My guess would be, would Innovo,

783
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:47.960
like agency side issues would probably take precedence

784
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:50.520
over tribe because you're kind of in the, you know,

785
00:38:50.520 --> 00:38:53.680
paying clients versus customers are still there,

786
00:38:53.680 --> 00:38:55.280
but how does that work?

787
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:56.560
Probably equal.

788
00:38:56.560 --> 00:38:58.560
They're both paying clients

789
00:38:58.560 --> 00:39:01.400
cause we have people who are like licensing tribe

790
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:03.920
and then they're sponsoring features as well.

791
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.760
So we've tried to keep,

792
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.400
so Looch and Carolina and myself and Zan

793
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:10.680
are kind of on tribe mostly.

794
00:39:10.680 --> 00:39:12.320
And then we've kind of split the team,

795
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:13.760
even just in the last month or two,

796
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.320
we've got more clarity on that.

797
00:39:16.560 --> 00:39:17.800
Because it was, I mean,

798
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:19.720
like, you know,

799
00:39:19.720 --> 00:39:21.720
or else people just pulled in every direction.

800
00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:23.120
So that way it's just one,

801
00:39:23.120 --> 00:39:26.360
one kind of team working on one project

802
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.200
versus having to have, you know, multiple things running.

803
00:39:30.040 --> 00:39:30.880
Okay.

804
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:31.720
Okay. That makes sense.

805
00:39:31.720 --> 00:39:34.320
Okay. So if there's customers on tribe side

806
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:35.200
that are paying, you know,

807
00:39:35.200 --> 00:39:36.840
they're sponsoring feature work to be built

808
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.880
and they're essentially operating as a client at that level

809
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:41.080
once they're doing that.

810
00:39:42.120 --> 00:39:43.800
Okay. That makes sense.

811
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.440
Okay. I'm just calling out things in areas that I'm hearing

812
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:48.480
just to get a better sense of things.

813
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:49.320
I would love.

814
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:51.000
I was thinking about that question.

815
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.720
I'm noticing something about like our team.

816
00:39:53.720 --> 00:39:55.600
Cause we did have like that support system

817
00:39:55.600 --> 00:39:58.720
that we're like one person dedicated per day.

818
00:39:58.720 --> 00:39:59.560
So.

819
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.460
I thought that was like a really good system

820
00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:05.860
because that person, if like a critical issue happens,

821
00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:09.180
then like that person is like interruptible.

822
00:40:09.180 --> 00:40:11.380
Plus like that person, we had like a backlog

823
00:40:11.380 --> 00:40:13.900
of like miscellaneous issues come in.

824
00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:16.800
So they're expected to like kind of chip away slowly at it.

825
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:20.540
So I thought it was good, but like we didn't keep up

826
00:40:20.540 --> 00:40:23.340
and it's kind of like, hmm.

827
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:24.660
I just prefer having Lucian on call all the time.

828
00:40:24.660 --> 00:40:27.020
It's not a specific reason you didn't keep up.

829
00:40:27.020 --> 00:40:29.340
You're just on call all the time, I prefer that.

830
00:40:30.060 --> 00:40:31.340
Right, that's much better.

831
00:40:33.020 --> 00:40:34.260
So I thought that was really good.

832
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:37.660
And yeah, so I'm noticing this thing of like,

833
00:40:37.660 --> 00:40:38.600
you know, we have a good thing

834
00:40:38.600 --> 00:40:41.580
and then it just kind of gets neglected and stops working.

835
00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:44.940
And we had a similar thing with like a deep work

836
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:47.020
because it's like a more like a personal habit.

837
00:40:47.020 --> 00:40:50.660
And we were trying to establish that like for each person.

838
00:40:50.660 --> 00:40:52.660
And I remember like me and Carolina,

839
00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:54.260
we're like cheering each other on,

840
00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:56.340
like, okay, I did my deep work session this week,

841
00:40:56.340 --> 00:40:58.300
you know, like getting the habit down.

842
00:40:58.300 --> 00:41:00.900
And we just kind of stopped doing that.

843
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:03.500
So I'm like, sometimes we have like really good thing doing

844
00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:08.100
and we stopped doing it with like, there's no reason for it.

845
00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:10.060
So I just thought that was interesting.

846
00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:12.220
Okay, that's good to know.

847
00:41:12.220 --> 00:41:13.380
Yeah, so I mean, so you felt like,

848
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:15.380
so when you were doing this one,

849
00:41:15.380 --> 00:41:18.020
so basically it's one developer is dedicated to covering

850
00:41:18.020 --> 00:41:19.700
per each day, it's a different developer.

851
00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:21.340
So you have like one day per week

852
00:41:21.340 --> 00:41:23.420
where you're dedicated to dealing

853
00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:26.020
with just reactive work essentially.

854
00:41:26.020 --> 00:41:27.080
Yep.

855
00:41:27.120 --> 00:41:28.720
Okay, so I mean, that's interesting

856
00:41:28.720 --> 00:41:31.040
because I think the equation that I found

857
00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:32.800
with a lot of the reactive work is you have to find much

858
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:36.840
like we can just take the apathize on estimates principle.

859
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:39.720
It's like, well, we know it's difficult.

860
00:41:39.720 --> 00:41:40.920
So we've been trying to just estimate,

861
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:41.760
well, what if we didn't?

862
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.560
What if we just said, we're only gonna spend this much time?

863
00:41:43.560 --> 00:41:44.680
What can we control?

864
00:41:44.680 --> 00:41:46.080
So you have to kind of reverse the equation.

865
00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:47.320
And I think reactive work, it's like, well,

866
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:49.320
how can you make it a little less reactive?

867
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.040
Because this is happening in the development world.

868
00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:54.400
Like the customer, the stake, whoever the stakeholder is,

869
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:56.280
customers, clients, whatever,

870
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:57.720
they're always gonna think it's a fire.

871
00:41:57.720 --> 00:41:59.520
But like, there are very few and far

872
00:41:59.520 --> 00:42:01.440
between actual fires that are happening.

873
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:02.520
We're like, you know, this,

874
00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:04.360
depending on what your software is, you know,

875
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:06.000
it depends on what it's actually doing.

876
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.080
You know, is it a medical something?

877
00:42:08.080 --> 00:42:09.640
And, you know, it requires, you know,

878
00:42:09.640 --> 00:42:11.560
all this on-call work or the reliance there.

879
00:42:11.560 --> 00:42:14.040
But typically it might be like, can it wait a day?

880
00:42:14.040 --> 00:42:15.520
Cause it is very different for you as a developer.

881
00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:17.840
If you can go, I'm still staying focused today.

882
00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:20.280
I know I have reactive work tomorrow,

883
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.400
but it's like planned reactive work.

884
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.280
So I think there is something to trying to shift

885
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:26.960
to that way of thinking at least,

886
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.160
where you can sort of plan your own reactive work

887
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:30.680
because it does help you when you plan your week.

888
00:42:30.680 --> 00:42:33.080
It's like, all right, well, I know every Wednesday

889
00:42:33.080 --> 00:42:34.520
I'm gonna be kind of reactive there.

890
00:42:34.520 --> 00:42:36.760
So I'm bucketing out my time Monday, Tuesday,

891
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:38.520
and I'll get back to it Thursday, Friday.

892
00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:39.560
And that helps.

893
00:42:39.560 --> 00:42:42.000
And I will add, I think we were doing a pretty good job

894
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.960
of separating out, like we did some like customer education

895
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.160
of yes, like they do always think that it's a fire.

896
00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:50.600
And we said like, no, no, no, actually it's not like

897
00:42:50.600 --> 00:42:52.760
totally unusable for like half of the people.

898
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.040
It's not an actual fire.

899
00:42:54.040 --> 00:42:56.280
It's like not critical, it's high.

900
00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.120
So we had like a list like that.

901
00:42:58.120 --> 00:43:01.480
And for developers are like the expectation of like,

902
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:03.920
okay, critical, you need to do as soon as it comes in.

903
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.000
High, like do it when you can.

904
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.920
Medium and low, like you could just like not do it.

905
00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:09.760
It's okay.

906
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:11.040
You can like spend the rest of the day

907
00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:12.560
doing like your project work.

908
00:43:12.560 --> 00:43:15.040
So I think we had that part of the process,

909
00:43:15.040 --> 00:43:15.920
like pretty good.

910
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:19.880
Okay, nice.

911
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:20.720
I like that.

912
00:43:21.120 --> 00:43:25.440
On the, so I'm trying to think with framing,

913
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:26.600
like where to start at least here.

914
00:43:26.600 --> 00:43:28.200
So I would love to, like, that's where I mentioned,

915
00:43:28.200 --> 00:43:30.000
like I'm sharing my screen just for this,

916
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:30.880
but we're all on this board.

917
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.000
I'd love to more specifically look at stuff too.

918
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.400
Like, I mean, if it's like, let's get into,

919
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.000
you know, from a framing perspective,

920
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:38.160
since we're kind of still in that spot,

921
00:43:38.160 --> 00:43:40.320
like even if it's like, what is a,

922
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:41.920
like we're in the problem space.

923
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.320
Like what do those things look like?

924
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:44.400
I know we talked about this, you know,

925
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.760
massive, you know, multi-page PDFs

926
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:48.480
that we get on the requirement side.

927
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:50.120
Also on the tribe side, like what does that look like?

928
00:43:50.520 --> 00:43:52.080
So like, Bruce, are you the one giving the inputs there

929
00:43:52.080 --> 00:43:53.560
and like, hey, here's the problem.

930
00:43:53.560 --> 00:43:56.360
How is that being like mined from customers

931
00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:57.280
and customer feedback?

932
00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:59.480
Some of that stuff would be helpful to get into.

933
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:02.840
Cool, yeah.

934
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:03.680
I'm trying to think of,

935
00:44:03.680 --> 00:44:05.840
if you guys have ideas on sample projects,

936
00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:09.840
we have, I have a couple ideas of projects

937
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:10.720
we could even pull up.

938
00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:12.000
We have everything in Notion.

939
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:14.120
So it's where all our pitches are.

940
00:44:14.120 --> 00:44:15.880
It's like one massive database,

941
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.640
just filtered by clients and dates and stuff.

942
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.600
So some of them have worked great.

943
00:44:22.600 --> 00:44:24.520
We had one project, the courses,

944
00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:25.720
which everybody will laugh at,

945
00:44:25.720 --> 00:44:26.920
like was like, oh cool.

946
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:29.240
Like this is a four week or eight week project.

947
00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:32.160
And we shaped that in February

948
00:44:32.160 --> 00:44:34.000
and we just released it last month.

949
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:38.080
So it was just, it was a very long four weeks,

950
00:44:38.080 --> 00:44:39.400
but we did get it done.

951
00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:42.520
And we learned a lot as far as like processes

952
00:44:42.520 --> 00:44:45.600
and we had different people work on it

953
00:44:45.600 --> 00:44:46.560
and then start again.

954
00:44:46.560 --> 00:44:47.960
And it was just a kind of a mess.

955
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:51.280
And so we, what was good about it was we,

956
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:52.600
from a tribes, this is for tribe,

957
00:44:52.600 --> 00:44:54.880
like we ended up on a great solution

958
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:56.280
because it was kind of the third time

959
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.800
we were building it for whatever reason.

960
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:00.640
And so.

961
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.280
So it did end up with a really slick process,

962
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:06.080
which we ended up only spending really two to four weeks

963
00:45:06.080 --> 00:45:08.920
at the end to build the final version.

964
00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:11.400
So it was definitely, we were accurate,

965
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:13.520
but we kind of went in this meandering,

966
00:45:13.520 --> 00:45:16.840
like exploratory thing that try a bunch of different ideas

967
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:19.440
and then ended up throwing a bunch of stuff away.

968
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:23.520
So there's more flexibility on that side to,

969
00:45:23.520 --> 00:45:25.000
we don't have to have like a deadline,

970
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.560
like this thing has to be done on this date.

971
00:45:27.560 --> 00:45:29.600
Whereas the agency world is a little bit,

972
00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:31.400
they're planning things around that.

973
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.800
And we, you know, if we take an extra month on tribe,

974
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:37.200
it's not the end of the world.

975
00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:40.960
And so there's the courses example.

976
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:43.160
Obviously we can show Extech stuff, Chris,

977
00:45:43.160 --> 00:45:45.380
if there's good examples there,

978
00:45:45.380 --> 00:45:47.880
but we're finding that like,

979
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.860
it's kind of getting into like the very tactical things.

980
00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:52.700
I think is where like,

981
00:45:52.700 --> 00:45:54.400
I've had good conversations with Zan,

982
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.620
where like we'll shape something

983
00:45:56.620 --> 00:45:59.240
and then we'll start the, let's say two week project,

984
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:02.440
but then it's really only like 60% shaped.

985
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:03.680
And so we're still like,

986
00:46:03.680 --> 00:46:06.660
do we spend the first few days of the two weeks,

987
00:46:06.660 --> 00:46:10.040
like shaping, you know, specifically,

988
00:46:10.040 --> 00:46:14.440
like getting it to maybe an 80 or 90% fleshed out?

989
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.680
Because some of that work requires a developer to go in

990
00:46:16.680 --> 00:46:18.220
and be like, what is actually possible?

991
00:46:18.220 --> 00:46:19.440
Like, which way should we go?

992
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:21.500
What is the solution we want to propose?

993
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:24.900
Or is that all done like ahead of time?

994
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.120
And then the two weeks is like,

995
00:46:26.120 --> 00:46:27.920
start working on like implementing.

996
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.120
So there's just,

997
00:46:29.120 --> 00:46:30.680
those are kind of the little nuance things

998
00:46:30.680 --> 00:46:32.360
that we're getting hung up on.

999
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:34.000
And it's, you know,

1000
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.560
either way we're like margin would be great

1001
00:46:36.560 --> 00:46:38.600
across the board on everything

1002
00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:39.840
that solves a lot of problems,

1003
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:41.320
but that's where we're kind of bumping in.

1004
00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:43.280
So like now the project feels behind

1005
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.240
because like we're on week two

1006
00:46:45.240 --> 00:46:46.480
and we just finished shaping it,

1007
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:48.520
but now we've got like seven days left

1008
00:46:48.520 --> 00:46:51.520
or five working days to get this thing done.

1009
00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:53.380
So Zan probably has thoughts on that.

1010
00:46:54.380 --> 00:46:56.180
Yeah, exactly.

1011
00:46:56.180 --> 00:46:57.500
Like for example,

1012
00:46:57.500 --> 00:47:01.820
the Go Live project was also similar one,

1013
00:47:01.820 --> 00:47:04.100
which was, there was a lot of things.

1014
00:47:04.100 --> 00:47:07.700
So I think it was like four weeks project,

1015
00:47:07.700 --> 00:47:10.860
but then let's say one week it was just about shaping up.

1016
00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:13.380
But then the second week that we went into,

1017
00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:16.780
we actually had to have like a developer come in

1018
00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:21.780
and then try like actually prototyping technical part of it

1019
00:47:22.300 --> 00:47:24.180
more or less,

1020
00:47:24.180 --> 00:47:26.620
which could like this second week,

1021
00:47:26.620 --> 00:47:30.740
then actually like it delayed stuff,

1022
00:47:30.740 --> 00:47:33.980
but this part could also be already a part

1023
00:47:33.980 --> 00:47:36.540
of the development cycle,

1024
00:47:36.540 --> 00:47:38.120
let's say like that.

1025
00:47:38.120 --> 00:47:39.620
So for example, it could,

1026
00:47:41.740 --> 00:47:44.060
it was part of the still the shaping up process.

1027
00:47:44.060 --> 00:47:47.180
Let's say it was 80% or 90% results, right?

1028
00:47:47.180 --> 00:47:49.300
But for those last 10%,

1029
00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:52.660
it actually needed like five weeks of the developer

1030
00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:56.140
to actually try different technical parts there.

1031
00:47:56.140 --> 00:47:58.420
So I think in these scenarios,

1032
00:47:58.420 --> 00:48:01.460
it will be helpful of actually how to think about that,

1033
00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:02.920
where it's like, okay,

1034
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:05.720
the developer would have to go in to,

1035
00:48:05.720 --> 00:48:08.100
let's say we complete the shape up 100%

1036
00:48:08.100 --> 00:48:13.060
or we can already get started with the development of it,

1037
00:48:13.060 --> 00:48:15.380
let's say in 80, 90% shape,

1038
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:19.340
but then actually adapt that as we go, right?

1039
00:48:19.340 --> 00:48:22.340
So I don't know if that makes sense,

1040
00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:24.500
but it's more like shaping solution

1041
00:48:24.500 --> 00:48:27.820
and building at the same time for the last 10%,

1042
00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:29.620
let's say something like that, right?

1043
00:48:31.020 --> 00:48:35.060
I think that was one of the thing that we ran into.

1044
00:48:35.060 --> 00:48:36.220
Yeah.

1045
00:48:36.220 --> 00:48:39.380
And I know we're going a little deep on this project,

1046
00:48:39.380 --> 00:48:41.900
but maybe it's helpful to use it as an example,

1047
00:48:41.900 --> 00:48:44.900
cause this, just so you can see kind of how we track stuff.

1048
00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:48.180
Everything is, we track the hours on everything.

1049
00:48:48.180 --> 00:48:50.700
So it was, I think four weeks,

1050
00:48:50.700 --> 00:48:55.180
and I think there's a reason this is that way

1051
00:48:55.180 --> 00:48:56.420
for billing standpoint,

1052
00:48:56.420 --> 00:48:59.220
but we can track like the actual hours we spent.

1053
00:48:59.220 --> 00:49:03.980
So I'm not too worried if we go 10, 20% over budget,

1054
00:49:03.980 --> 00:49:06.980
we've kind of built that in knowing that's gonna happen.

1055
00:49:06.980 --> 00:49:09.820
And we break stuff down into tasks here.

1056
00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:12.180
So you can see like there's 31 things,

1057
00:49:12.180 --> 00:49:15.340
like we kind of broke these into little bite-sized pieces

1058
00:49:15.340 --> 00:49:16.860
of kind of how each of these flows.

1059
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:18.260
And every time a bug came in,

1060
00:49:18.260 --> 00:49:21.060
we would track it in its own little board here.

1061
00:49:21.060 --> 00:49:23.660
But then the usual, shape up structure,

1062
00:49:23.660 --> 00:49:25.060
which is like the problem,

1063
00:49:25.060 --> 00:49:26.980
talked about like what was not working

1064
00:49:26.980 --> 00:49:28.380
with the current version.

1065
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:31.420
And this maybe could have been more fleshed out.

1066
00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:33.220
And then once we got into solution,

1067
00:49:34.220 --> 00:49:35.740
you can see like this was,

1068
00:49:35.740 --> 00:49:37.340
we like to keep notes on stuff.

1069
00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:39.100
So like, hey, we think this could happen.

1070
00:49:39.100 --> 00:49:40.740
That's version one is like,

1071
00:49:40.740 --> 00:49:42.140
we get something live out the door.

1072
00:49:42.980 --> 00:49:43.820
This was actually to Zan's credit,

1073
00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:46.180
came up with this like very iterative version.

1074
00:49:46.180 --> 00:49:49.220
Like, okay, we'll get one version, which works this way.

1075
00:49:49.220 --> 00:49:51.220
Version two, we'll have this extra little feature.

1076
00:49:51.220 --> 00:49:53.260
Version three is gonna have this extra thing.

1077
00:49:53.260 --> 00:49:54.580
And so by the time we get there,

1078
00:49:54.580 --> 00:49:57.700
we've like solved all the hard things.

1079
00:49:57.700 --> 00:49:59.620
First leaving, you know, testing the whole,

1080
00:49:59.620 --> 00:50:00.460
like trying to.

1081
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.880
build it all for two weeks, and then try to test it for a week.

1082
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:04.840
Build a little piece, make sure it's solid,

1083
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:07.560
and build upon that.

1084
00:50:07.560 --> 00:50:11.160
And so this was just us thinking through how

1085
00:50:11.160 --> 00:50:14.240
we would define each one of these things, what

1086
00:50:14.240 --> 00:50:15.520
tools we would use.

1087
00:50:15.520 --> 00:50:17.120
Got a little bit technical here on how

1088
00:50:17.120 --> 00:50:19.360
we use webhooks, some of the settings for each

1089
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.520
of these different roles.

1090
00:50:22.520 --> 00:50:24.920
So this one's pretty extensive.

1091
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:25.920
It's a lot.

1092
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:30.120
And maybe we put too much in the document here.

1093
00:50:30.120 --> 00:50:33.360
We had examples from the app of how it would look, and so forth.

1094
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:37.080
So I don't know if that gives a better idea of what

1095
00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:38.760
all went into this.

1096
00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:42.320
And so this is still going.

1097
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.960
And then we do talk to rabbit holes, of course,

1098
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:48.640
like where we could get stuck, technical stuff,

1099
00:50:48.640 --> 00:50:52.120
questions we had along the way, decisions we had to make.

1100
00:50:52.120 --> 00:50:54.480
And then out of bounds was like, we

1101
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.120
didn't want to change the UX too much.

1102
00:50:56.120 --> 00:50:59.280
We didn't want to spend a ton of time replacing any UI stuff.

1103
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:04.160
We don't need to share links outside of the app right now,

1104
00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:04.880
things like that.

1105
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:09.160
So that's kind of how we split it up.

1106
00:51:09.160 --> 00:51:09.680
OK.

1107
00:51:09.680 --> 00:51:10.720
No, that's super helpful.

1108
00:51:10.720 --> 00:51:14.920
And even if it's like the project that did not

1109
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.240
go the way you expected, or one that didn't go well,

1110
00:51:17.240 --> 00:51:19.200
and one that went really well, there's

1111
00:51:19.200 --> 00:51:22.120
a gap between those two things that we could talk about

1112
00:51:22.120 --> 00:51:22.920
and go deeper on.

1113
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:25.600
But I think what I'm seeing is very similar to what

1114
00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:29.320
I've seen before, which is there's

1115
00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:32.240
more time spent down on the solution space

1116
00:51:32.240 --> 00:51:34.320
than the problem space being there.

1117
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:35.400
And it's very common.

1118
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:36.880
I've seen every team do this.

1119
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:37.600
It's really hard.

1120
00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:39.200
And I think, Carolina, you had a couple of questions

1121
00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:42.680
around that, just like, how do we get that data out?

1122
00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:45.160
It takes a lot of digging to get there.

1123
00:51:45.160 --> 00:51:48.480
But ultimately, you're going to make better decisions down here

1124
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.800
if you have more clarity of the problem up front.

1125
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:53.880
So we can get into some of that, too, if it's like,

1126
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:55.840
what's some of the problem definition

1127
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:58.040
side in the problem space, and what that looks like,

1128
00:51:58.040 --> 00:52:00.200
and root causes, and going through that.

1129
00:52:00.200 --> 00:52:03.040
And I shared it in my newsletter this week as an actual example.

1130
00:52:03.040 --> 00:52:05.840
But one of the products we're building currently

1131
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:07.960
just had an Algolia search.

1132
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.000
The client wanted the highlighting

1133
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:12.360
when you search for a keyword to show up in every result.

1134
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.640
But Algolia's got this weird character limit

1135
00:52:14.640 --> 00:52:16.040
where it's like 50,000 characters.

1136
00:52:16.040 --> 00:52:18.480
So it didn't go through the full result set, yada, yada, yada.

1137
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:20.800
So we went through this whole thing where they're like,

1138
00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:23.640
it's a developer on the client side that knows some of it.

1139
00:52:23.640 --> 00:52:26.560
So they suggested, well, you could chunk the data out

1140
00:52:26.560 --> 00:52:27.400
and do this or that.

1141
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.080
We kind of explored it and looked at those options.

1142
00:52:30.080 --> 00:52:31.640
But when we talked it through,

1143
00:52:31.640 --> 00:52:33.320
we were just getting back to like, what's the problem?

1144
00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:34.880
And actually, one of the developers on my team said this.

1145
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:36.760
He was like, well, if we can get a better sense of the problem,

1146
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:38.400
we can probably come up with more solutions here.

1147
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:39.800
And I was like, that's the best way to think.

1148
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:41.640
Like, when you think that way, like, that's what you want to think.

1149
00:52:41.640 --> 00:52:44.000
It's like, I can't, I'm wrestling with the problem down here.

1150
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:45.760
I need to know, like, what's the core problem?

1151
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:47.120
So when we got to it, it's like,

1152
00:52:47.120 --> 00:52:49.040
ultimately, they just wanted the results to be highlighted.

1153
00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:51.640
So our simple solve was just do it on the front end.

1154
00:52:51.640 --> 00:52:52.800
Like, we don't need to deal with Algolia

1155
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:53.960
and chunking all this data out.

1156
00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:56.120
We can just manage the results ourselves.

1157
00:52:56.120 --> 00:52:57.520
Let's just highlight them on the front end.

1158
00:52:57.520 --> 00:52:59.160
Works way better. It's way faster.

1159
00:52:59.160 --> 00:53:00.480
Took us way less time.

1160
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:01.800
So you just have to get into that space.

1161
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:04.120
But the only way you can operate more creatively down there

1162
00:53:04.120 --> 00:53:06.400
is when the problem is like,

1163
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:08.520
you've really explored the problem space.

1164
00:53:08.520 --> 00:53:10.160
And I think that's the part in shaping

1165
00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:11.000
that gets really tricky

1166
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:14.280
because that part is very fuzzy a lot of times.

1167
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:15.560
And sometimes you do have to operate

1168
00:53:15.560 --> 00:53:16.720
with a little bit more fuzzy.

1169
00:53:16.720 --> 00:53:17.680
And we can talk about,

1170
00:53:17.680 --> 00:53:20.040
I can give some techniques at least around

1171
00:53:20.040 --> 00:53:22.600
like the technical de-risking side.

1172
00:53:22.600 --> 00:53:24.440
I will say like, I reshaped them myself,

1173
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:27.320
but I'm a designer and an engineer and I've been built.

1174
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:30.400
So like, I can do, I can view it from all three lenses.

1175
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:31.400
But when you have different people

1176
00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:32.440
that have different skill sets,

1177
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:33.520
you have to bring them to the process.

1178
00:53:33.520 --> 00:53:35.880
Everybody's got to view it from a specific lens,

1179
00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:36.720
which I can talk about,

1180
00:53:36.720 --> 00:53:37.640
because that can help where it's like,

1181
00:53:37.640 --> 00:53:39.400
I'm writing the pitch this way.

1182
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:41.000
I have a second perspective that's writing it

1183
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:42.440
and thinking about it this way.

1184
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:44.120
And they're identifying specific things.

1185
00:53:44.120 --> 00:53:46.040
So when you get those for your team,

1186
00:53:46.040 --> 00:53:46.880
that'll be what will help.

1187
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:47.880
Like Chris writes it here.

1188
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:48.720
Okay.

1189
00:53:48.720 --> 00:53:51.200
Then Lucian comes in and he looks at it and he does it.

1190
00:53:51.200 --> 00:53:53.800
Like you can figure out what each person's role is

1191
00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:55.400
and how they should be thinking about the pitch.

1192
00:53:55.400 --> 00:53:58.640
Cause it's very much a design focused exercise.

1193
00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:00.920
But the big part that you're trying to figure out

1194
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:03.040
is like, what's going to trip us up

1195
00:54:03.040 --> 00:54:04.760
from this shipping this on time.

1196
00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:07.880
It's like, there are always rabbit holes lurking somewhere

1197
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:09.560
and you're not going to catch all of them.

1198
00:54:09.560 --> 00:54:11.080
And a lot of times, and I can show examples,

1199
00:54:11.080 --> 00:54:13.320
I'll try and dig up some around pitches I've written

1200
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:16.480
where I probably do have it 90% shaped.

1201
00:54:17.240 --> 00:54:18.120
There's an unknown here,

1202
00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:20.280
but it falls into the territory of like uphill work.

1203
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:21.520
And I feel confident in that.

1204
00:54:21.520 --> 00:54:23.800
The team can, let's figure it out in the first week

1205
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:25.360
of going up the hill

1206
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:26.800
and they'll be able to figure that out.

1207
00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:28.240
And I think that's where the hill chart does help.

1208
00:54:28.240 --> 00:54:29.320
And you guys are using notion.

1209
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:31.280
We moved away from base camp and into linear.

1210
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:33.280
So we're kind of out of hill chart territory.

1211
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:34.120
I still like it.

1212
00:54:34.120 --> 00:54:35.000
I still think it's a good visual.

1213
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.320
Even if you just draw it on like a fig jam board,

1214
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.360
I've done that before and just put little dots

1215
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:40.720
and kind of have a conversation about it.

1216
00:54:40.720 --> 00:54:42.920
It's helpful just to think about things that way.

1217
00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:45.080
But yeah, no, I totally understand that.

1218
00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:48.360
If we could go on that project specifically,

1219
00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:49.240
that would be really helpful.

1220
00:54:49.240 --> 00:54:51.800
And I would say like even just the kind of thinking

1221
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.000
about like what's an outcome we need to hit

1222
00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:56.040
for each of these things

1223
00:54:56.040 --> 00:54:58.000
and that pitch document helps a lot.

1224
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.040
So is there like a standard pitch?

1225
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.600
format or template you're using in Notion,

1226
00:55:02.600 --> 00:55:04.960
or is it kind of the general problem solution

1227
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:06.460
and kind of changes per?

1228
00:55:08.200 --> 00:55:11.180
We have like a template that we'll start.

1229
00:55:12.120 --> 00:55:14.440
So for here, we just start a new template

1230
00:55:17.020 --> 00:55:20.440
and everything kind of starts with this template

1231
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:22.080
and we leave everything in Inbox.

1232
00:55:22.080 --> 00:55:23.560
And so this is like just an idea,

1233
00:55:23.560 --> 00:55:26.560
like stuff where we one day look at,

1234
00:55:26.560 --> 00:55:29.140
then we kind of go through a process of shaping.

1235
00:55:30.040 --> 00:55:33.640
We've recently tried to add this waiting for client,

1236
00:55:33.640 --> 00:55:34.800
sometimes we're finished shaping it,

1237
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.960
we're just waiting for them to approve it.

1238
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:38.200
And then we call it dev ready.

1239
00:55:38.200 --> 00:55:40.800
So this means like people can go and start on it.

1240
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:42.360
So we're trying to get to this point

1241
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:43.360
where it's pretty shaped,

1242
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:44.200
but typically what happens

1243
00:55:44.200 --> 00:55:45.800
as soon as you flip it to in progress,

1244
00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:46.920
then it's like, oh, wait,

1245
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:49.800
this is only partially way shaped

1246
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.720
and then in review completed or we discard stuff.

1247
00:55:52.720 --> 00:55:54.040
So we try to keep it clean,

1248
00:55:54.040 --> 00:55:55.600
but same thing like problem solution,

1249
00:55:55.600 --> 00:55:57.240
rabbit holes out of bounds.

1250
00:55:57.240 --> 00:55:59.280
And this is what would success look like.

1251
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:02.560
And that's kind of our template for now.

1252
00:56:04.240 --> 00:56:05.080
Okay.

1253
00:56:05.080 --> 00:56:05.900
Now that's helpful.

1254
00:56:05.900 --> 00:56:07.560
Yeah, so you treat it as like it's an ocean project.

1255
00:56:07.560 --> 00:56:10.800
It has the pitch embedded alongside the actual tasks

1256
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:12.480
that are going through the process.

1257
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:14.360
And the tasks are just like a different database

1258
00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.720
called tasks that link everything together.

1259
00:56:16.720 --> 00:56:21.720
So I would love to hear how linear I've been exploring it,

1260
00:56:22.560 --> 00:56:24.920
but I'm trying not to be like,

1261
00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:26.400
jump on the next cool thing

1262
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:28.320
and just totally derail,

1263
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:29.920
throw a grenade into everything we're doing.

1264
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:33.440
But yeah, I've been tempted with linear.

1265
00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:34.280
It looks good.

1266
00:56:35.200 --> 00:56:36.040
Okay.

1267
00:56:36.040 --> 00:56:36.880
Yeah.

1268
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.760
I mean, I'll say like I've used Notion since like 2017.

1269
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:41.680
Like personally, I have a crazy Notion system.

1270
00:56:41.680 --> 00:56:42.680
I love Notion.

1271
00:56:42.680 --> 00:56:44.000
We toyed with taking it,

1272
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:45.360
taking us there at some point,

1273
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:47.120
but it was gonna require a lot of my time

1274
00:56:47.120 --> 00:56:48.520
to teach people how to Notion.

1275
00:56:48.520 --> 00:56:50.720
And I would spend all my time just cleaning up our Notion.

1276
00:56:50.720 --> 00:56:52.280
So we shifted a little bit.

1277
00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:54.040
So we use Basecamp for a long time.

1278
00:56:54.040 --> 00:56:55.400
Basecamp was getting a little rough.

1279
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:56.680
Like it's almost too simplified.

1280
00:56:56.680 --> 00:56:59.040
We couldn't get a lot of like data and metrics out of it

1281
00:56:59.040 --> 00:57:01.440
that we wanted when we were doing more support work.

1282
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:04.800
So we've been doing linear since March of this year,

1283
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:05.640
I think.

1284
00:57:05.640 --> 00:57:06.920
And I've had a lot of success in it.

1285
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:08.080
It is a very good product.

1286
00:57:08.080 --> 00:57:10.320
So I'll say that it's probably worth it

1287
00:57:11.200 --> 00:57:12.200
from that perspective,

1288
00:57:12.200 --> 00:57:13.360
depending on like,

1289
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:14.760
I don't know how much clients get involved

1290
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:16.200
with any of the Notion projects.

1291
00:57:16.200 --> 00:57:18.800
Like, do you add them to any of the projects?

1292
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:20.920
We'll typically like publish it to the website

1293
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:22.040
and then they can share it.

1294
00:57:22.040 --> 00:57:26.240
But our clients are not technical at all.

1295
00:57:26.240 --> 00:57:28.040
Like their founders,

1296
00:57:28.040 --> 00:57:29.960
they're running a electrical business.

1297
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:31.600
They're running like a coaching business.

1298
00:57:31.600 --> 00:57:33.320
Like they just need stuff done.

1299
00:57:33.320 --> 00:57:34.720
You know, they don't,

1300
00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:36.120
that they get bothered

1301
00:57:36.120 --> 00:57:38.120
when we show them that level of detail.

1302
00:57:39.040 --> 00:57:39.880
Which is a great thing.

1303
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:40.720
Yeah, that's fair.

1304
00:57:40.720 --> 00:57:41.560
Yeah, no, that's good.

1305
00:57:41.560 --> 00:57:43.120
I mean, I try and I always coach our teams.

1306
00:57:43.120 --> 00:57:44.920
It's like, I use the analogy of,

1307
00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:47.040
it's like a kitchen almost.

1308
00:57:47.040 --> 00:57:47.880
Like you don't,

1309
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.120
there's some stuff happening in the kitchen.

1310
00:57:49.120 --> 00:57:50.040
You don't want to come back there.

1311
00:57:50.040 --> 00:57:51.240
People might be screaming at each other.

1312
00:57:51.240 --> 00:57:52.200
It's a little chaotic.

1313
00:57:52.200 --> 00:57:53.400
It's part of the creative process.

1314
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:54.480
It's fine.

1315
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:55.840
But then there's the front of house where it's like,

1316
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.720
hey, here's the menu and here's what's on it.

1317
00:57:58.400 --> 00:57:59.240
And it's very nice.

1318
00:57:59.240 --> 00:58:00.080
And so like, you kind of have to curate it.

1319
00:58:00.080 --> 00:58:00.920
So I always say like,

1320
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:02.320
it's in general when you're doing client work,

1321
00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:03.800
it's like kind of keeping them out of it's good.

1322
00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:05.520
You want to like strategically show them

1323
00:58:05.520 --> 00:58:06.960
some of those spots,

1324
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:10.000
but they'd rather have the menu that shows them,

1325
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:11.240
you know, Gantt chart.

1326
00:58:11.240 --> 00:58:12.720
That's pretty instead of, you know,

1327
00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:15.360
all of the potential messiness that's coming in.

1328
00:58:17.720 --> 00:58:18.600
So we can, I'm trying to make,

1329
00:58:18.600 --> 00:58:21.040
this one was close to some of the,

1330
00:58:21.040 --> 00:58:22.680
I know this one was a little bit later downstream,

1331
00:58:22.680 --> 00:58:23.720
but are there standard questions

1332
00:58:23.720 --> 00:58:25.560
to ask to nail down the real problem with a client?

1333
00:58:25.560 --> 00:58:26.640
Or how can I get better at learning?

1334
00:58:26.640 --> 00:58:29.320
What questions to ask to guide them?

1335
00:58:30.680 --> 00:58:32.320
Yeah, I mean, this one's, like I said,

1336
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:33.840
this one's very more art than science.

1337
00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:35.520
Like you can always come up with a list of questions.

1338
00:58:35.520 --> 00:58:39.680
I think for me, like when you think of any problem,

1339
00:58:39.680 --> 00:58:42.760
there's always so many different angles to it.

1340
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:43.600
So like the goal,

1341
00:58:43.600 --> 00:58:45.960
I think when you're to set something up to shape it well,

1342
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:48.280
is like, it's narrowing the problem down

1343
00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:51.000
to like the lowest amount of surface area that you can.

1344
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:52.640
Cause like the problem in software is like,

1345
00:58:52.640 --> 00:58:53.680
where do bugs come from?

1346
00:58:53.680 --> 00:58:55.680
It's like increased surface area of code base,

1347
00:58:55.680 --> 00:58:57.200
more code, more things.

1348
00:58:57.200 --> 00:58:58.840
So if you can start from the space of like,

1349
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:00.760
I always talk about like with my teams,

1350
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:02.160
I'm like, I'm always just doing this all the time.

1351
00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:03.800
I'm like, nope, let's avoid that.

1352
00:59:03.800 --> 00:59:04.880
Just keep, let's go.

1353
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:06.040
We got to keep narrowing it down.

1354
00:59:06.040 --> 00:59:08.040
And that might happen as we get into it further.

1355
00:59:08.040 --> 00:59:09.480
It's like, what is the real,

1356
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:10.360
it's like, you just want to know like,

1357
00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:11.680
what's the crux of the problem?

1358
00:59:11.680 --> 00:59:14.000
And a lot of it is just kind of like first principles,

1359
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:15.720
asking foundational questions,

1360
00:59:15.720 --> 00:59:17.080
challenging some of those assumptions,

1361
00:59:17.080 --> 00:59:19.080
like getting towards the root thing.

1362
00:59:19.080 --> 00:59:21.600
I mean, it's the, you know, Steve Jobs thing, nobody,

1363
00:59:21.600 --> 00:59:23.400
or I guess the better quote was the,

1364
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:25.640
it's the, if Henry Ford asked what people wanted,

1365
00:59:26.600 --> 00:59:27.440
they would have said a faster horse, you know,

1366
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:28.360
instead of a car.

1367
00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:30.280
So it's like, you do have to get to a place where like,

1368
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:31.600
they don't, they're going to give you something,

1369
00:59:31.600 --> 00:59:32.440
but you have to get behind it.

1370
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:35.480
So I can call out like specific techniques that like,

1371
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:38.400
like I do like, like jobs to be done as a good framework

1372
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.480
for some of this thinking, if you haven't looked into it,

1373
00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:44.240
it's a good one because it does get into a lot of like user

1374
00:59:44.240 --> 00:59:46.640
kind of like struggled and context outside of it.

1375
00:59:46.640 --> 00:59:49.280
Like, what are they hiring this product to do?

1376
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:50.840
And if you get more into that space,

1377
00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:52.800
you can start getting a better understanding

1378
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.320
of what they're actually trying to do.

1379
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:55.760
So it's a lot of that's just kind of digging

1380
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:57.280
and user research.

1381
00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:58.480
So I think what I'll do on this one,

1382
00:59:58.480 --> 00:59:59.680
because like there's specific questions

1383
00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:00.520
that could be.

1384
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:03.320
ask, but I will provide like specific resources that I found to be helpful.

1385
01:00:03.640 --> 01:00:07.040
Um, there's two, so I think jobs to be done and I have some books that I've

1386
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:08.720
can recommend on that, that are really good.

1387
01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:09.280
And then.

1388
01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:14.180
Um, there's a book by Teresa Torres called continuous discovery habits, and

1389
01:00:14.180 --> 01:00:17.080
she has a technique called opportunity solution trees, but this would probably

1390
01:00:17.080 --> 01:00:18.760
operate more in the product space.

1391
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:22.000
Um, but she has some very interesting techniques just for, for how you do user

1392
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:26.080
interviews, talk to people, uh, have those conversations I have, like, I can

1393
01:00:26.080 --> 01:00:28.800
provide a bunch of different books and links on that one, because this one.

1394
01:00:29.200 --> 01:00:32.840
Like, I never have, like, even when you ask if there are standard questions, I

1395
01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:37.380
feel like I probably have like a bank of them, but it tends to be, it tends to be

1396
01:00:37.380 --> 01:00:40.320
more of kind of like a user interview kind of thing, where it's like sort of

1397
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:42.560
the five wise, it's like, okay, well, why do you need that?

1398
01:00:42.620 --> 01:00:43.280
Why do you need that?

1399
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:46.940
Why do you like going deeper to get your goal is to try and get to like, what's

1400
01:00:46.940 --> 01:00:49.680
the smallest atomic unit of this problem?

1401
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:51.000
Cause that's going to help you shape.

1402
01:00:51.200 --> 01:00:54.480
It's way clearer to shape then it's way easier to see all the lines of the words.

1403
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:56.040
Like that's really where you're trying to get to.

1404
01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:59.480
I hate when these answers are sort of just like, it depends, but this is one of

1405
01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:01.840
those where like, there are tactics, there are ways to go about it and I'll

1406
01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:03.040
provide some of those resources.

1407
01:01:03.040 --> 01:01:05.400
Cause I think that'd be worth looking into on those.

1408
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:09.480
Um, and from those, you could probably come up with like a set of, I, I, I

1409
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:12.320
probably haven't written mine down, but I tend to ask the same questions, but

1410
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:13.620
each problem is a little bit unique.

1411
01:01:13.620 --> 01:01:16.520
So I tend to go to it from that perspective.

1412
01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:19.120
Yeah.

1413
01:01:19.120 --> 01:01:22.160
And just trying to shift people into thinking about the problem, right?

1414
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:28.120
These things come to us, not in the form of like a nice organized meeting or an

1415
01:01:28.120 --> 01:01:32.320
email, it's a Slack message with directly from our client to our team.

1416
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:34.760
Like this thing is not doing what it should.

1417
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:35.720
And you're like, great.

1418
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:40.200
Like my first question, my first question has generally been like, can you explain

1419
01:01:40.200 --> 01:01:41.560
like, what, what is the problem?

1420
01:01:41.560 --> 01:01:43.360
Cause they're like, oh, it needs to do this, this and this.

1421
01:01:43.680 --> 01:01:44.160
Okay.

1422
01:01:44.200 --> 01:01:45.360
That's one solution.

1423
01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:48.680
Like, tell me like what the actual problem is like, oh, well we need, you

1424
01:01:48.680 --> 01:01:49.880
know, and then I kind of back up for it.

1425
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:54.520
Once they explain it a little bit, it starts to get a little bit clear, but

1426
01:01:54.520 --> 01:01:58.800
um, that's typically, you know, we're not really working with our client.

1427
01:01:58.800 --> 01:02:03.000
We're looking, working only with like our clients team, like where there could be

1428
01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:07.160
five to 10 people that are all giving us input on a particular app.

1429
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:07.640
So.

1430
01:02:09.680 --> 01:02:09.880
Yeah.

1431
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:12.600
I mean, when you say it really makes me think, I think the lesson I learned is

1432
01:02:12.600 --> 01:02:14.720
like, he's now six, but he still does it.

1433
01:02:14.720 --> 01:02:18.960
My son, my older one, he, I mean, it's like the classic kid, why thing?

1434
01:02:19.080 --> 01:02:21.880
I mean, it is like when they say, well, I want it to do this.

1435
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:23.360
Why do you want it to do that?

1436
01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:25.640
Like there, there, there is a problem behind that.

1437
01:02:25.640 --> 01:02:27.880
Like there's always some motivation behind it.

1438
01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:30.400
You have to, and I think like you have to get to like, what

1439
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:31.960
is the motivation behind this?

1440
01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:33.640
They're going to keep telling you the solution.

1441
01:02:33.680 --> 01:02:34.880
Cause that's human brains.

1442
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:36.400
Don't like, we don't like gaps.

1443
01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:37.600
We don't like open loops.

1444
01:02:37.600 --> 01:02:39.880
So for them, I have this problem.

1445
01:02:39.880 --> 01:02:41.520
I'd rather just tell you, here's how you'll solve it.

1446
01:02:41.560 --> 01:02:43.120
And the problem you're going to be right.

1447
01:02:43.120 --> 01:02:44.680
But their brains was trying to close that.

1448
01:02:44.680 --> 01:02:47.640
So you have to like figure out what's the open loop for them.

1449
01:02:47.720 --> 01:02:48.520
Keep asking them why.

1450
01:02:48.520 --> 01:02:49.240
So it really is.

1451
01:02:49.520 --> 01:02:52.760
So a couple of things that like the five wise exercise with one, that's a common

1452
01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:56.040
one, and I'll dig up some resources I have on this one too, but I want to

1453
01:02:56.040 --> 01:02:57.440
at least create a list around that.

1454
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:01.320
Cause that's like in the problem space, that's incredibly important

1455
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:02.440
is to try and get towards that.

1456
01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:04.960
Especially if you're on the client side where a lot of it is, you're

1457
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.480
getting fixed requirements, you're getting prescriptions, you have

1458
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:10.560
to find the problems behind that.

1459
01:03:11.120 --> 01:03:13.840
Cause then that'll, that'll help you because it is true.

1460
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:16.080
Like even, and a lot of this is trust building too.

1461
01:03:16.080 --> 01:03:18.880
Like when I mentioned that Algolia solution, when I brought that back to

1462
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:22.680
the client, the response was like, well, we trust you it's like, yeah, because

1463
01:03:22.680 --> 01:03:25.800
I'm giving you the exact same, I'm giving you the solution, I'm solving

1464
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.960
the core problem and we're not going to do, we're doing half the development

1465
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:30.840
work to get there and it'll get done on time.

1466
01:03:30.840 --> 01:03:31.880
It's way less complex.

1467
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.080
The code base will be simpler.

1468
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:34.400
The product will be better.

1469
01:03:34.640 --> 01:03:36.480
We can test it and make sure it solves the problem.

1470
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:38.120
And if it doesn't, then we go down that path.

1471
01:03:38.120 --> 01:03:40.960
So you just have to, it's like that's on the client side.

1472
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:41.800
I always see it as that way.

1473
01:03:41.800 --> 01:03:45.640
Like we'll take you through this process and then you'll see that the way that

1474
01:03:45.640 --> 01:03:48.680
you build things is by making trade-offs and you can only do that effectively if

1475
01:03:48.680 --> 01:03:51.320
you understand the problem space upfront.

1476
01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:53.440
So I'll put this here for now.

1477
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:55.480
I don't want to do it in a second, but I have a few on top of my head.

1478
01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:58.080
So I'll, I'll provide some links on that because I think we'll attach

1479
01:03:58.080 --> 01:04:00.760
that to, to this one on that side.

1480
01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:06.960
Um, is there any others like with that specific project when you

1481
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:08.240
talked about some of the courses?

1482
01:04:08.240 --> 01:04:11.920
So that first, the one you showed was the courses project, correct?

1483
01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:14.680
Uh, it was the, it was go live.

1484
01:04:14.680 --> 01:04:19.720
It's like basically like a live stream, starting a live stream in the, in tribe.

1485
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:23.600
Uh, that one, that was just a very recent one.

1486
01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:25.440
Um, it's a more real example.

1487
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:28.920
Cause we were spending a lot of time also pausing in the middle of it

1488
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:30.360
to try to figure out our process.

1489
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:35.960
Um, and why stuff like how, cause we obviously, and again, it was just kind

1490
01:04:35.960 --> 01:04:42.080
of too, too tight of a deadline for too much work, and so we did in the process

1491
01:04:42.080 --> 01:04:43.960
end up simplifying it quite dramatically.

1492
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:48.160
Um, but I feel like I actually, to be honest, like I didn't even see how

1493
01:04:48.200 --> 01:04:51.680
quite how long this whole pitch was until right now when I'm like scrolling

1494
01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:56.120
it through, it was that we may have like over overdone the notes and the feedback.

1495
01:04:56.120 --> 01:04:58.640
Cause I, I'm a huge fan.

1496
01:04:58.640 --> 01:05:00.040
Like we've either like say too little.

1497
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.800
like some of our projects can say like, hey, we need to add courses to the app, right? Like,

1498
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:10.560
it's way too vague. But I do think there's the right amount of this, like, precision language

1499
01:05:10.560 --> 01:05:16.080
that goes into a pitch that's very, it helps, like, it's precise in that it cuts through,

1500
01:05:16.080 --> 01:05:20.000
like, where it's not this, but it's this. Like, your example of the Algolia is like,

1501
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:23.680
I want it to highlight, and so when the results come back from Algolia, I want them all, like,

1502
01:05:23.680 --> 01:05:27.760
and so, like, immediately in that sentence, they've already thrown in, like, oh, this has

1503
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:32.240
to come from Algolia's problem, it can't, like, oh, no, hey, I'd love to, hey, when someone

1504
01:05:32.240 --> 01:05:36.960
searches, I'd love to see the text highlighted, the search term, like, highlighted, like, you

1505
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:40.240
know, that's the problem, but they immediately want to, like, throw it into the solution.

1506
01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:48.400
So, trying to get very specific on the language of, like, spending a little extra time, I think,

1507
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:54.240
shaping on the front end, and I'm happy for our team to, like, spend more time up front on that,

1508
01:05:54.800 --> 01:06:01.440
whether we count it as part of the project or not, that's totally fine, but I think just iterating

1509
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:05.760
on, like, cool, like, we've recently, like, gotten to the habit of, like, cool, I think this is,

1510
01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:10.720
like, 30% shaped, I think it's, like, 80% shaped, like, just give it, like, or even out of 10,

1511
01:06:10.720 --> 01:06:16.240
like, how far do we think this is? Because just because there's a lot of text and there's a lot

1512
01:06:16.240 --> 01:06:21.520
of notes and to-dos, like, doesn't mean that it's actually really shaped well. In fact, taking it

1513
01:06:21.520 --> 01:06:24.800
and editing it one more time, like, okay, I don't think we need to include all this, I don't, you

1514
01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:28.880
know, we can delete all this, we can say this with one sentence, we don't need three paragraphs,

1515
01:06:30.240 --> 01:06:35.040
just being very clear and precise, it helps us communicate to the client, to the team,

1516
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:40.320
so, and then it comes back, I know, you know, Basecamp Anthro Signals, super

1517
01:06:41.520 --> 01:06:46.560
important to, like, have great writing skills and communication, so it's, we're all having to,

1518
01:06:46.560 --> 01:06:54.320
like, level up our writing abilities for this to write very well, short, you know, to the point

1519
01:06:55.680 --> 01:07:02.800
stuff, so anyway, just a few thoughts on that. Yeah, no, I know, like, there's, I'm trying to,

1520
01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:06.080
like, experiment too, it's just, like, I mean, I enjoy writing, it's a huge part of it, I think,

1521
01:07:06.080 --> 01:07:09.600
like, it helps clarify thinking, you're having to write the problem out, go through the solution,

1522
01:07:09.600 --> 01:07:13.520
like, there's a lot of benefit in that, but even, like, everything I shape, it always comes from

1523
01:07:13.520 --> 01:07:18.480
different, like, places, I start at different places, sometimes it's, I know enough that I

1524
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:24.080
need to write this out and just get a framing for it, I don't really know enough there, so it's,

1525
01:07:24.080 --> 01:07:28.720
like, you're just in, like, rough sketching kind of world, ideating more from a user interface

1526
01:07:28.720 --> 01:07:33.440
perspective, or, like, the breadboarding technique that they talk about is a really helpful one to

1527
01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:37.280
get you out of, like, to get you into a sense of flows and, like, what you expect from screen to

1528
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:44.000
screen, I might be able to actually, let me, I can show, might be helpful since I'm in R,

1529
01:07:45.520 --> 01:07:48.880
showing you some behind the scenes, this, I just threw this together in here, so I was actually

1530
01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:52.560
shaping this, this feature, like, they have this, in this product, it's, like, a whole subscriptions

1531
01:07:52.560 --> 01:07:56.800
thing that they want to build out, it's, like, an onboarding flow, but this is, like, how I

1532
01:07:56.800 --> 01:08:01.360
started shaping, I didn't start from anything else, it was trying to just wire these things up,

1533
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:05.520
so really it was essentially what you're doing, like, it's the same breadboarding technique that

1534
01:08:05.520 --> 01:08:10.880
they talk about, but it's just doing it, like, a sticky form works the same way, it's screen,

1535
01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:15.760
it's what they would call affordances, text, link, buttons, whatever's on that page that you would

1536
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:20.880
expect, and then you have arrows to signify, are you, those things flowing between each other,

1537
01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:25.840
so, you know, they, authentication gives them a signup link, they create an account, it has

1538
01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:30.720
these affordances, they, when they submit, they enter a code, it auto-submits, so this is kind

1539
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:34.720
of, like, creating an organization, has different elements here, and I kind of went through this,

1540
01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:38.240
and the reason I was exploring this is because it's, like, this whole onboarding flow to creating

1541
01:08:38.240 --> 01:08:44.240
a subscription, so do they upload a video and do this, like, nice uploading flow here, or can I

1542
01:08:44.240 --> 01:08:49.680
just do a more streamlined version of it, where it's just letting them create an organization,

1543
01:08:49.680 --> 01:08:53.680
do the subscription, and go to a message screen, and just kind of getting a sense for it here,

1544
01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:56.399
so, like, this is a bit more about the specifics, it's just, like, saying from a

1545
01:08:57.279 --> 01:09:02.000
shaping space, it's, like, I started here, it's, like, you can start from, each problem can be a

1546
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:04.800
little different, so you start from, like, you just need to get clarity on the problem, like, can you

1547
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:10.160
just write a really clear problem definition, then, based on that problem definition, you start at the

1548
01:09:10.160 --> 01:09:15.200
right place you want, whether it's, I need to sketch, I need to get a sense for, like, overall

1549
01:09:15.200 --> 01:09:19.040
flows, which you can do in sketching, too, this is just, the reason the breadboarding technique works

1550
01:09:19.040 --> 01:09:22.479
is because it's a lot faster for me to just go, like, oh, actually, what if we didn't have this

1551
01:09:22.479 --> 01:09:26.800
screen, what if we moved it over here, I can do it more lightweight and easier in this format than I

1552
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:33.040
could do in a, you know, actual sketched version of something, it's just a little bit more lightweight

1553
01:09:33.040 --> 01:09:37.200
to move things around, but one thing I've been exploring is, like, you know, we all have to

1554
01:09:37.200 --> 01:09:41.439
understand, like, AI is rapidly changing, too, so, like, how can it help in that process, and, you

1555
01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:45.920
know, through this, as I was shaping this one, I'm, like, can I just, like, screenshot different

1556
01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:50.640
things that I've shaped, like, this, and give it to ChatGPT, or give it to, like, a custom GPT I

1557
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:56.400
created that does a pitch that I like, and just feed it that, and kind of get me more 80% of the

1558
01:09:56.400 --> 01:09:59.920
way there, so just want to call out, like, I know, I think Carolyn or somebody mentioned, like,

1559
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.260
Chappy RD, you know, there are other tools that are out there, uh, to those

1560
01:10:03.260 --> 01:10:06.420
ones do get like, sometimes you have to QBT where there's give you, you know,

1561
01:10:06.480 --> 01:10:09.260
it's the AI slop thing where it might give you too much.

1562
01:10:09.260 --> 01:10:11.300
So again, you gotta give it good inputs to get there.

1563
01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:14.700
Um, but just calling that out, if that's helpful, at least to like, when

1564
01:10:14.700 --> 01:10:18.300
you're thinking about approaching these things, there's different ways to do it.

1565
01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:20.060
So like, this is a good place to start.

1566
01:10:20.060 --> 01:10:22.500
Cause actually even with the developers, I had good

1567
01:10:22.500 --> 01:10:23.720
conversations with them around this.

1568
01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:26.700
I showed the client, this is part of just to kind of understand like, Hey,

1569
01:10:26.700 --> 01:10:28.820
here's the thought process behind, like how we're thinking about this.

1570
01:10:29.160 --> 01:10:33.980
And this helped me understand, okay, we have all these authentication

1571
01:10:33.980 --> 01:10:35.640
screens in place already.

1572
01:10:35.740 --> 01:10:37.680
The new thing is creating an organization.

1573
01:10:37.840 --> 01:10:41.860
So we know that that's the scope of work they need to tackle.

1574
01:10:42.100 --> 01:10:45.560
We know that Stripe and subscription model, and that's a scope

1575
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:46.660
of work that you need to tackle.

1576
01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:48.780
And then we talked about this whole upload video thing,

1577
01:10:48.780 --> 01:10:50.060
and maybe that's a scope.

1578
01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:52.460
So that's identifying those in the pitches kind of helped too.

1579
01:10:52.460 --> 01:10:53.540
But, um,

1580
01:10:53.660 --> 01:10:58.300
one project that you just hear, is this the entire app, like on this board?

1581
01:10:59.140 --> 01:11:00.100
This is one.

1582
01:11:00.140 --> 01:11:02.340
So this is the features called subscriptions.

1583
01:11:02.360 --> 01:11:03.180
It's one.

1584
01:11:03.200 --> 01:11:04.860
So here I show whatever I'll show you guys.

1585
01:11:05.380 --> 01:11:10.860
Um, So you can see here, like this was, and this is not how it looked at first,

1586
01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:15.220
but this was kind of like, we're in this public release, this is how I kind of

1587
01:11:15.220 --> 01:11:17.180
blocked out this, this chunk of work.

1588
01:11:17.440 --> 01:11:19.100
And I kind of mapping them on here.

1589
01:11:19.100 --> 01:11:21.820
So like this data migration was actually supposed to be a week, but then we had

1590
01:11:21.820 --> 01:11:25.060
all these permissions issues kind of blocked on their side, it got extended.

1591
01:11:25.060 --> 01:11:27.260
So this is where like, I was, it's fine.

1592
01:11:27.300 --> 01:11:29.100
Things got, this was supposed to happen later.

1593
01:11:29.100 --> 01:11:30.140
This was supposed to happen later.

1594
01:11:30.140 --> 01:11:31.100
They got done sooner.

1595
01:11:31.380 --> 01:11:32.580
These were extended a little bit.

1596
01:11:32.820 --> 01:11:36.620
So this thing I'm showing you is this whole feature, the subscriptions one.

1597
01:11:36.620 --> 01:11:39.580
So it's much bigger than all the other ones within this project.

1598
01:11:39.580 --> 01:11:41.980
So it was about a six week project.

1599
01:11:42.540 --> 01:11:42.780
Yeah.

1600
01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:46.140
So this would be like a more typical, like as big as you can go feature size,

1601
01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:50.860
which I like shape of has the, there's a six week version of any feature.

1602
01:11:51.500 --> 01:11:54.540
In theory, if you break that down, you could actually do, I mean, like I,

1603
01:11:54.620 --> 01:11:56.340
then you don't have to follow shape up at all.

1604
01:11:56.340 --> 01:12:00.420
Apparently, but I mean, honestly, like, even if I thought I started thinking

1605
01:12:00.420 --> 01:12:02.940
about this recently too, where I'm like, I'm going to give them a full pitch

1606
01:12:03.180 --> 01:12:04.860
that has about create organization.

1607
01:12:04.940 --> 01:12:08.460
I could also give them a one week pitch to make create organization.

1608
01:12:08.460 --> 01:12:11.860
Like I could take that whole block of subscriptions that's across six

1609
01:12:11.860 --> 01:12:13.780
weeks and I could break it down further.

1610
01:12:13.780 --> 01:12:17.340
So I guess where I say like the appetite size, it's just really how far you want

1611
01:12:17.340 --> 01:12:20.380
to break it down for your team that fits your cadence, that's totally fine.

1612
01:12:20.380 --> 01:12:22.060
Like you can change it however you want.

1613
01:12:22.060 --> 01:12:25.660
This just happened to be a bigger one, which I will say like, this is probably

1614
01:12:25.660 --> 01:12:29.060
the first time I've done a six week feature in a while, like a lot of our

1615
01:12:29.060 --> 01:12:32.020
teams do, but I tend to think that that's just like, you can always

1616
01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:32.660
break it down further.

1617
01:12:32.660 --> 01:12:35.300
You get, the goal is to get tighter feedback loops.

1618
01:12:35.300 --> 01:12:37.500
So if you're just doing a one week feature, you can get tighter.

1619
01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:39.660
I think you build the muscle a lot better when you actually go through that

1620
01:12:39.660 --> 01:12:42.460
process and do it faster over time.

1621
01:12:42.460 --> 01:12:46.300
But, you know, this was, I'm sharing this cause I think this is the cool, like

1622
01:12:46.540 --> 01:12:47.980
it's, this helped me a lot.

1623
01:12:48.060 --> 01:12:49.340
And this is a good place to maybe start.

1624
01:12:49.340 --> 01:12:52.980
You can have different conversations looking at this than a pitch document.

1625
01:12:53.020 --> 01:12:55.060
Cause you know, the documents like somebody wrote it.

1626
01:12:55.220 --> 01:12:58.380
I see the pitch documents kind of like the artifact that's like wrapping up all

1627
01:12:58.380 --> 01:13:01.220
the thinking at the end, almost is kind of how I view it.

1628
01:13:01.220 --> 01:13:01.860
If that makes sense.

1629
01:13:01.860 --> 01:13:04.940
It's like the formalized, like we're viewing this as like, is this good to go

1630
01:13:04.940 --> 01:13:05.660
into development?

1631
01:13:05.940 --> 01:13:09.540
This is the problem space here where it's like, like this is more solution space,

1632
01:13:09.540 --> 01:13:12.260
but it's like, all right, we're kind of experimenting here.

1633
01:13:12.300 --> 01:13:13.020
So good.

1634
01:13:14.140 --> 01:13:17.300
Does this get, I'm just kind of thinking of the process, like practically, like

1635
01:13:17.780 --> 01:13:21.780
you use this for yourself before you write the pitch, or do you include links

1636
01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:23.540
to this in the pitch when it's done?

1637
01:13:24.540 --> 01:13:27.020
Um, it kind of depends.

1638
01:13:27.020 --> 01:13:30.740
So I, I did this, I did this one by itself.

1639
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:32.100
I have not included links to it.

1640
01:13:32.100 --> 01:13:34.860
So what it gave me was for each of the scopes.

1641
01:13:34.860 --> 01:13:39.540
So I basically broke this out into like, they need to create an organization and

1642
01:13:39.540 --> 01:13:43.580
the developers would build this as like, they can sign up, they can create an

1643
01:13:43.580 --> 01:13:48.140
organization and then they get to this, like the root screen of the app basically.

1644
01:13:48.540 --> 01:13:49.700
So I had it set up this way.

1645
01:13:49.700 --> 01:13:50.580
Let me zoom in here.

1646
01:13:51.060 --> 01:13:52.700
And then I was like, okay, well, there's a second.

1647
01:13:52.940 --> 01:13:54.380
And I try and just pick three scopes.

1648
01:13:54.380 --> 01:13:55.900
It's just sort of three is a good magic number.

1649
01:13:55.900 --> 01:13:56.700
Start with three.

1650
01:13:57.060 --> 01:13:59.460
And they're kind of like, they need to be validated once they start building,

1651
01:13:59.460 --> 01:14:01.180
but okay, you can create organization.

1652
01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:05.020
Uh, you can like, I think I had managed subscription or start subscription.

1653
01:14:05.020 --> 01:14:05.660
I can't remember what it was.

1654
01:14:06.740 --> 01:14:08.100
So then it was like, start subscription.

1655
01:14:08.100 --> 01:14:08.300
Okay.

1656
01:14:08.300 --> 01:14:10.860
This goes a little bit further and you create the org.

1657
01:14:11.220 --> 01:14:14.900
Then you start the subscription and then you get to the root screen.

1658
01:14:15.980 --> 01:14:20.380
And then the third one was the like more full flow was if, if we're trying to do

1659
01:14:20.620 --> 01:14:24.140
kind of product led onboarding kind of product growth, like let them go through

1660
01:14:24.140 --> 01:14:27.620
the app, realize the value of the app faster than it was like this, most of the

1661
01:14:27.620 --> 01:14:30.580
app is basically like uploading a video and being able to like search a lot of

1662
01:14:30.580 --> 01:14:31.300
video content.

1663
01:14:31.660 --> 01:14:35.540
So then you would get to this and it's like, well, can we upload the video here?

1664
01:14:36.700 --> 01:14:37.220
And then have it.

1665
01:14:37.220 --> 01:14:39.660
So this is just showing, like, I broke it out this way.

1666
01:14:39.660 --> 01:14:42.980
Cause the way I think about it when I'm shaping it is I'm thinking about from

1667
01:14:42.980 --> 01:14:46.300
like a flows perspective, like these independent scopes that could be built.

1668
01:14:46.340 --> 01:14:49.940
Cause like I, even if it's a six week thing, I'm saying like the developers

1669
01:14:49.940 --> 01:14:50.860
can start on this.

1670
01:14:50.860 --> 01:14:52.180
Actually, we have a lot of questions on this.

1671
01:14:52.180 --> 01:14:54.380
This goes into like pricing strategy.

1672
01:14:54.380 --> 01:14:57.420
Like we got to really clean up the uploading UX for this to actually work

1673
01:14:57.420 --> 01:14:59.940
effectively, but they can actually start building this.

1674
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:01.600
Like they actually finished some stuff early.

1675
01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:03.520
So they started this week on, on this.

1676
01:15:03.520 --> 01:15:05.360
I'm like, yeah, you can clean up some of the authentication

1677
01:15:05.360 --> 01:15:07.280
stuff before ahead of time.

1678
01:15:07.280 --> 01:15:11.360
So I'll always rail on like the flows, like the, and I'm sure

1679
01:15:11.360 --> 01:15:12.560
every developer on here will nod.

1680
01:15:13.120 --> 01:15:16.080
This is, this is the kind of the layer cake thing they talked

1681
01:15:16.080 --> 01:15:19.280
about in, in shape up where it's like, you can, you know, the

1682
01:15:19.280 --> 01:15:21.920
backend developer goes and builds the, all of the, I wired

1683
01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:23.840
up all the API end points and did X, Y, and Z.

1684
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:25.360
And here's the database is great.

1685
01:15:25.360 --> 01:15:28.160
Frontend developer went and like made these static screens,

1686
01:15:28.160 --> 01:15:29.440
but nothing's connected.

1687
01:15:29.440 --> 01:15:32.480
Like all tension points in software happen in the overlap.

1688
01:15:32.480 --> 01:15:34.880
Like it's the integration points, like you have to make

1689
01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:36.720
sure those things are working well together.

1690
01:15:36.720 --> 01:15:39.680
So that's where I always try and figure out like blows, like

1691
01:15:39.680 --> 01:15:42.800
get to like the, the thing that'll give you progress is

1692
01:15:42.800 --> 01:15:43.680
touching all those things.

1693
01:15:43.680 --> 01:15:45.040
And I do that with early products too.

1694
01:15:45.040 --> 01:15:46.720
It's like, what are the, what are the flows that actually

1695
01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:47.520
they're going to go through?

1696
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:51.280
Like, we have another one that just started and it's like, I

1697
01:15:51.280 --> 01:15:53.680
told them do authentication, but this has been spending two

1698
01:15:53.680 --> 01:15:54.560
weeks on authentication.

1699
01:15:54.560 --> 01:15:56.960
Like you don't need to cover like, okay, we forgot password.

1700
01:15:56.960 --> 01:15:57.680
I did this.

1701
01:15:57.680 --> 01:16:00.080
And all these edge cases and authentication, can they sign

1702
01:16:00.080 --> 01:16:02.160
up and get to the next thing and then get to the next thing?

1703
01:16:02.160 --> 01:16:04.480
I get to a full flow because all those, that'll help you.

1704
01:16:04.480 --> 01:16:05.760
You'll see more parts of the system.

1705
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:08.000
You'll be able to lay out more of the code.

1706
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:10.320
That's just like, if that's helpful, that's kind of how I

1707
01:16:10.320 --> 01:16:11.920
tend to think about, about this.

1708
01:16:11.920 --> 01:16:12.960
So I started from this place.

1709
01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:13.760
You could link to it.

1710
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:15.680
We're still in a weird spot with that.

1711
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.800
Cause I use whimsical for pitch docs.

1712
01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:20.800
Cause we've kind of used whimsical as like sort of a, I

1713
01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:23.760
don't know if you've used it at all, but it's like another one

1714
01:16:23.760 --> 01:16:24.720
of those that's floating out there.

1715
01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:25.040
They're good.

1716
01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:27.040
Cause it's like a notion you use notion.

1717
01:16:27.040 --> 01:16:29.840
So it's basically, we'll have similar overlap, but it's like

1718
01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:32.560
my notion replacement that I can use to sort of help here

1719
01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:36.320
because they'll let you embed like figma boards, loom videos,

1720
01:16:36.320 --> 01:16:37.040
that sort of stuff.

1721
01:16:37.040 --> 01:16:39.360
So what I would probably do if I felt like this was

1722
01:16:39.360 --> 01:16:42.800
complicated enough that the flows needed to be shown in the

1723
01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:47.040
pitch, then I would just embed this like fig jam as a, or

1724
01:16:47.040 --> 01:16:50.000
screenshot it, or just embed the fig jam inside the pitch

1725
01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:50.320
itself.

1726
01:16:50.320 --> 01:16:53.120
But Bruce, your original question, which I went way

1727
01:16:53.120 --> 01:16:57.200
around, this was what I started with and all I did was the

1728
01:16:57.200 --> 01:16:58.880
exercise to get to the pitch.

1729
01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:00.800
So I don't actually think none of, none of this really needed

1730
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:01.600
to come forward to the pitch.

1731
01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:04.400
Cause I just needed to get to those three and like three

1732
01:17:04.400 --> 01:17:07.120
scopes and flows that I could put in the pitch.

1733
01:17:07.120 --> 01:17:07.680
Yeah.

1734
01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:08.480
Well, that's, that's helpful.

1735
01:17:08.480 --> 01:17:13.600
I think one gap for us is how do we like present the pitch?

1736
01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:15.520
Like we're, cause we're writing it for the client, but we're

1737
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:16.960
writing it really for ourselves.

1738
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:19.760
And there's this work that gets done.

1739
01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:22.400
Like the pitch is not all of our notes about the problem,

1740
01:17:22.400 --> 01:17:23.520
like about the project.

1741
01:17:23.520 --> 01:17:23.920
Right.

1742
01:17:23.920 --> 01:17:27.200
I mean, it can be, maybe you can have it in a sub page or

1743
01:17:27.200 --> 01:17:32.480
whatever, but we tend to just like use it as like a whiteboard

1744
01:17:32.480 --> 01:17:34.080
of just stuff for the project.

1745
01:17:34.080 --> 01:17:37.280
But I think there's this level of like presenting it that just

1746
01:17:37.280 --> 01:17:39.520
helps us like think through it a little bit more deeply.

1747
01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:42.880
Especially, and I think the bigger the project, obviously

1748
01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:44.560
the more shaped it needs to be.

1749
01:17:46.000 --> 01:17:49.280
So I think that that's very helpful to kind of see these

1750
01:17:49.280 --> 01:17:51.200
practical examples, super helpful to me.

1751
01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:52.880
Yeah.

1752
01:17:52.880 --> 01:17:57.040
And sometimes you'll want to like, you can, I mean, depend.

1753
01:17:57.040 --> 01:18:00.160
Like I shared, like, I just, I'll always do a loom video

1754
01:18:00.160 --> 01:18:01.040
talking through it.

1755
01:18:01.040 --> 01:18:03.200
Like, I don't just say like, Hey, here's the pitch, read it.

1756
01:18:03.200 --> 01:18:05.760
It's kind of like, there's so much nuance to it that a loom

1757
01:18:05.760 --> 01:18:08.800
video is great or, you know, whatever loom stuff I just do

1758
01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:11.520
that collectively is a video where you're talking through

1759
01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:12.560
something to get more context.

1760
01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:14.000
Like that's, that's always really helpful.

1761
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:16.160
So like if you present it that way, and it's kind of what I

1762
01:18:16.160 --> 01:18:18.640
said about the whole kitchen analogy that they want the

1763
01:18:18.640 --> 01:18:19.120
menu.

1764
01:18:19.120 --> 01:18:21.120
So sometimes you have to take, it depends on the client.

1765
01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:23.920
If they're very non-technical, it's good to say like, Hey, I'm

1766
01:18:23.920 --> 01:18:26.960
going to give you like, maybe it's like a five slide deck

1767
01:18:26.960 --> 01:18:27.600
pitch deck.

1768
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:29.680
That's just like, here's a slide that talks about the

1769
01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:30.480
problem.

1770
01:18:30.480 --> 01:18:31.920
Here's like how much time we're spending on it.

1771
01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:33.840
Reminder, this is what it looks like on a timeline.

1772
01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:36.000
And then here's like a couple of screenshots of like, Hey,

1773
01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:38.640
here's how we're going to approach the problem and just

1774
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:39.920
give them that sense.

1775
01:18:39.920 --> 01:18:41.280
There's different ways you can go about it.

1776
01:18:42.080 --> 01:18:42.960
That's, that's awesome.

1777
01:18:42.960 --> 01:18:46.080
And can you like, so this, this gets shaped into some sort

1778
01:18:46.080 --> 01:18:50.080
of document that you then give to the client, give to the

1779
01:18:50.080 --> 01:18:51.840
team through, how does that work?

1780
01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:55.280
Once you translate it into, to linear, does that all go into

1781
01:18:55.280 --> 01:18:57.120
tasks to the, does the team just come up with their own

1782
01:18:57.120 --> 01:18:57.520
tasks?

1783
01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:00.080
Like, how do you guys, what's that process look like?

1784
01:19:01.360 --> 01:19:01.600
Yeah.

1785
01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:07.440
So we can in linear, they, each project has like an overview

1786
01:19:07.440 --> 01:19:09.600
page where you can just have like kind of how notion has

1787
01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:10.880
properties on there.

1788
01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:12.480
You can just do like a link to something.

1789
01:19:12.480 --> 01:19:15.040
So I'll just put a link to the pitch outside of it.

1790
01:19:15.040 --> 01:19:16.400
So they can just link out to the pitch.

1791
01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:18.640
Then it's pretty much empty.

1792
01:19:18.640 --> 01:19:19.600
I'll sometimes fill out.

1793
01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:22.320
So like what we call like the subscopes, like, so linear

1794
01:19:22.320 --> 01:19:24.480
we'll have a project, they do milestones.

1795
01:19:24.480 --> 01:19:26.800
That would be like those three I showed you where it's create

1796
01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:29.920
onboard or whatever it is, create organization, start

1797
01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:32.000
subscription user or upload video.

1798
01:19:32.000 --> 01:19:33.440
I would take those three and just like put them as

1799
01:19:33.440 --> 01:19:36.560
milestones on that project, but everything's empty.

1800
01:19:36.560 --> 01:19:39.280
So then they would just read the pitch.

1801
01:19:39.280 --> 01:19:42.880
They're going through the code and actually like looking into

1802
01:19:42.880 --> 01:19:45.600
the project and documenting tasks along the way.

1803
01:19:45.600 --> 01:19:47.840
And this would be a call out I'd have for the team here.

1804
01:19:48.640 --> 01:19:51.040
One thing I felt too, that's really critical to this process

1805
01:19:51.040 --> 01:19:55.680
is the tasks that you create should not purely be like

1806
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:56.720
downhill execution.

1807
01:19:56.720 --> 01:19:59.360
I know what to do work like you can put a time.

1808
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:02.960
actually might be critical for your team too, if you're kind of crossing over and

1809
01:20:02.960 --> 01:20:07.500
blending, shaping into some of the development work, hauling out, like,

1810
01:20:07.900 --> 01:20:11.500
like looking up documentation, figuring out a solution, those are tasks that you

1811
01:20:11.500 --> 01:20:14.420
should put in that notion board, like questions you have, like, they'll do that

1812
01:20:14.420 --> 01:20:18.660
for me all the time is, you know, like, how do we want to handle blah, like we

1813
01:20:18.660 --> 01:20:20.140
used to call them, like, how will we question?

1814
01:20:20.140 --> 01:20:23.480
So we would put like HWW, like if you've done like the design sprint thing,

1815
01:20:23.480 --> 01:20:24.780
where it's like, how might we questions?

1816
01:20:25.020 --> 01:20:26.640
So like, how will we handle.

1817
01:20:27.280 --> 01:20:29.640
Authentication, you know, and that'll just be like a question mark.

1818
01:20:29.640 --> 01:20:31.580
That is a task that lives on that board.

1819
01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:32.600
Cause that's great.

1820
01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:36.840
Cause that's like, well, Chris has this knowledge of shaping that work ahead

1821
01:20:36.840 --> 01:20:38.700
of time, so he can inform that.

1822
01:20:38.700 --> 01:20:41.320
So it's like, that's, that's sort of like what you might have to lean into as a

1823
01:20:41.320 --> 01:20:44.680
team is surfacing uphill work as tasks.

1824
01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:48.000
And the questions you have early in the process, like the way you want to think

1825
01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:51.880
about it, like, I think this is probably true of any feature that's above, usually

1826
01:20:51.880 --> 01:20:54.600
when I think about a six week feature, it's like that first week of work is very

1827
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:58.160
much like, we know all the lines of the work we've identified the three key

1828
01:20:58.160 --> 01:21:01.200
scopes, and we know what it's going to take to get to the top of the hill.

1829
01:21:01.240 --> 01:21:04.040
Like what questions we need to answer to feel confident in our solution.

1830
01:21:04.880 --> 01:21:05.920
That's like what you have to do.

1831
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:09.560
And like, if you can make sure you're surfacing those, that's been really

1832
01:21:09.560 --> 01:21:11.880
helpful and that's something that like, I've seen some teams, the teams that

1833
01:21:11.880 --> 01:21:14.800
have struggled with it is when there's nothing on the board, the developers

1834
01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:18.400
going deep on something, they're figuring something out, but what they come out

1835
01:21:18.400 --> 01:21:21.320
with at the end is like, oh, I have all these tasks now that I know I need to do.

1836
01:21:21.320 --> 01:21:24.360
But surfacing the thing you're actively working on, which is maybe you're

1837
01:21:24.360 --> 01:21:25.960
looking at documentation that's uphill work.

1838
01:21:26.040 --> 01:21:29.440
Like if you go read some docs and, Hey, I want to use this package

1839
01:21:29.440 --> 01:21:32.360
or you're validating something like that's all part of the process.

1840
01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:33.600
So that might be something interesting.

1841
01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:35.720
I don't know if you're doing that or what level of granularity

1842
01:21:35.720 --> 01:21:39.680
you have for your tasks, but that could be helpful if it's like surfacing.

1843
01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:42.160
Some of the things you're trying to figure out as from the development

1844
01:21:42.160 --> 01:21:44.840
side can help from a shaping perspective.

1845
01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:46.560
If you're kind of blending those two things.

1846
01:21:50.920 --> 01:21:51.560
That's awesome.

1847
01:21:52.160 --> 01:21:52.920
Super helpful.

1848
01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:58.840
Any other questions from you guys as well?

1849
01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:02.360
I've like, just since we've got this example, I don't know if you had something.

1850
01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:03.200
Yeah.

1851
01:22:03.240 --> 01:22:07.480
So maybe just, just one, one more stuff, just in terms of the flows, right.

1852
01:22:07.480 --> 01:22:12.920
Where you mentioned, uh, uh, like those flows are part, are, are, are then

1853
01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:19.800
part of the pitch, which is like, uh, the pitch is then distributed in three

1854
01:22:19.800 --> 01:22:24.160
milestones, which is each, each flow is essentially one of the milestones or.

1855
01:22:24.280 --> 01:22:24.800
Correct.

1856
01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:25.520
Or today.

1857
01:22:27.200 --> 01:22:27.700
Yeah.

1858
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:32.960
Um, so it's not like it's three different, yeah, it's not like three

1859
01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:38.240
different pitches of like three different projects of, let's say one or two weeks

1860
01:22:38.240 --> 01:22:42.160
projects, but like one, six week project with three milestones, which is

1861
01:22:42.160 --> 01:22:46.520
essentially three different versions or flows within the project.

1862
01:22:47.200 --> 01:22:47.720
I should write.

1863
01:22:48.240 --> 01:22:48.760
Yes.

1864
01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:49.400
Yeah.

1865
01:22:49.440 --> 01:22:51.320
I mean, none of this stuff is proprietary.

1866
01:22:51.320 --> 01:22:52.560
I'll just show you guys a little bit.

1867
01:22:52.680 --> 01:22:56.320
I'm still like shaping this pitch, but showing in progress

1868
01:22:56.320 --> 01:22:57.160
stuff is super helpful.

1869
01:22:57.160 --> 01:22:59.280
So let me stop sharing this.

1870
01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:01.040
Actually, I think I can share both now.

1871
01:23:01.720 --> 01:23:04.720
Let's go to scare.

1872
01:23:06.320 --> 01:23:06.800
Okay.

1873
01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:11.760
So you can see at least in, um, whimsical and this is still like very halfway.

1874
01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:17.280
And typically like I've had pitches, I actually like whimsical has, um, where

1875
01:23:17.280 --> 01:23:20.640
to find it, I have like a pitch template that I've been using for a while.

1876
01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:25.040
I have like a pitch template that is published in like whimsical public thing.

1877
01:23:25.040 --> 01:23:27.000
So I have a more built out one of these, but I kind of got back to

1878
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:28.240
like early stage stuff.

1879
01:23:28.240 --> 01:23:30.600
I keep it extremely simple and it's just like problem.

1880
01:23:30.920 --> 01:23:33.840
And you can see this one doesn't have deep problem definition

1881
01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:34.920
because I don't need a ton of wise.

1882
01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:37.200
I mean, so I want to call that out to like, sometimes you're not going to

1883
01:23:37.200 --> 01:23:38.880
have this elaborate problem statements.

1884
01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:41.480
And I'm like, yeah, we just know that like in order to release this

1885
01:23:41.480 --> 01:23:43.240
product, people need to pay for it.

1886
01:23:43.240 --> 01:23:45.320
So we've got to, these are the things we know we need to do.

1887
01:23:45.320 --> 01:23:47.680
So I don't need to go deep into the problem space around that

1888
01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:49.520
one, um, for what that's worth.

1889
01:23:49.960 --> 01:23:51.800
I always put this in here and I like to highlight it this way.

1890
01:23:51.800 --> 01:23:55.440
Cause if I do share it with clients, I just like always rail against the same

1891
01:23:55.440 --> 01:23:58.880
thing, like, Hey, this six week after that, just reminder that like this,

1892
01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:00.000
we're going to make trade-offs.

1893
01:24:00.040 --> 01:24:03.240
We're going to adjust the scope so that we can stay within this timeline

1894
01:24:03.440 --> 01:24:05.480
while solving this problem we just identified up above.

1895
01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:08.400
So, um, Xander to, for your question.

1896
01:24:08.400 --> 01:24:11.040
So yeah, I took those three things like, okay, create organization.

1897
01:24:11.320 --> 01:24:14.000
These are how I'm breaking out the solution.

1898
01:24:14.400 --> 01:24:16.440
So one thing I would call it, like I always do this.

1899
01:24:16.440 --> 01:24:18.320
Cause again, I've been thinking about it from a development perspective

1900
01:24:18.320 --> 01:24:19.480
and I'm saying, okay, what are.

1901
01:24:20.120 --> 01:24:24.160
Three scopes within this larger feature that are independent.

1902
01:24:24.160 --> 01:24:26.880
Like we could ship this to production, even if it's behind a feature flag,

1903
01:24:26.920 --> 01:24:29.960
whatever you could ship this to production independent of the other

1904
01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:31.280
parts of the work and it's good.

1905
01:24:31.280 --> 01:24:33.640
Like that's the way, like that's the mental model I typically have for it.

1906
01:24:34.080 --> 01:24:34.800
I'll break that out.

1907
01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:37.880
So that might be a good kind of tactical thing for you guys to do is like, if

1908
01:24:37.880 --> 01:24:41.360
you're technically looking at the shaping work, it's like, maybe you're

1909
01:24:41.360 --> 01:24:43.520
starting to think about like, well, how would I break this out to actually

1910
01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:44.880
ship this and deliver it?

1911
01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:45.840
Like, what would I want to do?

1912
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:50.360
So like when I create the project and linear, I'm saying, here's a milestone

1913
01:24:50.920 --> 01:24:52.520
man, a subscription of the milestone.

1914
01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:56.360
And then this upload video one is a milestone, you know, and I was still

1915
01:24:56.360 --> 01:24:59.280
working through what this could look like, but I try and think about it as

1916
01:24:59.280 --> 01:25:00.000
like, how can we make.

1917
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:04.560
forward progress on each of these pieces and break the work down. And then I'm doing some

1918
01:25:04.560 --> 01:25:08.080
technical work here. So you can be like, I, we use clerk for authentication for this app,

1919
01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:11.840
they have a whole component that will be pre-built here. So I can, I'm doing some

1920
01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:15.280
technical de-risking on it and kind of looking deeper, like, well, how can we use this? Okay,

1921
01:25:15.280 --> 01:25:18.960
Stripe, we got it on that path. I know we can use like a managed Stripe page for this. I kind of

1922
01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:23.040
have enough of those pieces in place, but yeah. So you're basically, what I was showing you is

1923
01:25:23.040 --> 01:25:27.520
like, it breaks, it's still one project, but one appetite. And then those individual bodies of work

1924
01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:32.080
are what show up in between. So that could be a good collaboration standpoint. It's like,

1925
01:25:32.080 --> 01:25:36.800
you're from a technical perspective, what, what are the big, and that's actually, I haven't gotten,

1926
01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:42.000
I did my own kind of technical de-risking, but I'll send a loom to developers and have them

1927
01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:45.760
kind of think through this and just like, do you have any call-outs on anything that major

1928
01:25:45.760 --> 01:25:50.400
that would come up? But there's never, I mean, I think what I want to call for you guys is like,

1929
01:25:50.400 --> 01:25:54.000
what you're doing, like where it feels like things are blending between both is totally

1930
01:25:54.000 --> 01:25:57.840
fine. And I think that's natural. And I don't get caught up in, is this thing a hundred percent

1931
01:25:57.840 --> 01:26:02.240
shaped or not? Cause I just think there's, there's always loose ends and you can lean that into the

1932
01:26:02.240 --> 01:26:07.120
work, but it's just like, how do you collaborate to resolve those and trade and make the trade-offs.

1933
01:26:07.120 --> 01:26:12.160
And that's really where I always emphasize, like if everybody has really good context up here and

1934
01:26:12.160 --> 01:26:16.320
this problem definition, then, and you know, the constraint that you're operating under,

1935
01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:19.920
everything down here is malleable. Once you're in the process, you just want to do your best

1936
01:26:19.920 --> 01:26:23.520
job during shaping. And sometimes you'll miss, I've had somewhere I'm like, totally miss.

1937
01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:28.480
Like we had to rewrite this part of the API, totally missed it. And it's like product maturity

1938
01:26:28.480 --> 01:26:32.240
changes. So the reason I'm lighter with these is because it's a new product we started building

1939
01:26:32.240 --> 01:26:36.320
six months ago and we just got it to beta and now we've got to release it next year. So I'm

1940
01:26:36.320 --> 01:26:42.720
just, it's a little bit newer. It's can be more fluid typically. And that's kind of the use case

1941
01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:48.160
for it. But I can dig up more specific examples here, like way more built-up pitches. I have tons

1942
01:26:48.160 --> 01:26:52.720
and happy to share things. It's helpful to see it kind of in progress. Cause that's kind of where

1943
01:26:53.520 --> 01:26:59.040
like, that's where the, it's the messy middle of all the getting it from, you know, from the idea

1944
01:26:59.040 --> 01:27:04.560
to kind of in progress, then obviously it gets kind of comes out the other end nicely. But I was,

1945
01:27:04.560 --> 01:27:09.360
I like, I'm just thinking even on the payment side, like, or the stripes I've made on number

1946
01:27:09.360 --> 01:27:14.480
two there, like you've, you could easily go so much more details because I'm thinking like,

1947
01:27:14.480 --> 01:27:20.160
oh, they can choose a selection of subscription. Like that's like, what is the selection? What is

1948
01:27:20.160 --> 01:27:24.800
the pricing? Is it annual? Is it quarterly? Is it, you know, weekly? Like what's the billing?

1949
01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:29.680
So where are those decisions made or highlighted? Or is that something that goes into linear

1950
01:27:30.320 --> 01:27:35.680
later or something that we like create a list of questions for the client or like,

1951
01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:42.640
how do you deal with that kind of level of detail? Yeah, no, that's a great question. Yeah. So that,

1952
01:27:42.640 --> 01:27:46.480
this is a good example of that. So I kept thinking about it. The way I pitched this to the client was

1953
01:27:46.720 --> 01:27:49.680
we need to, like, when we talked about, and actually, I don't know, you can see there's

1954
01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:53.360
open questions here. Cause I, they talked about this idea of like, okay, they upload the video,

1955
01:27:53.360 --> 01:27:56.240
they have this giant content library. It's a church that we're working on. They have like

1956
01:27:56.240 --> 01:28:00.080
this giant content library of like 30 years. The whole product is basically built around,

1957
01:28:00.080 --> 01:28:04.880
like, can we do like AI kind of semantic search to find like specific piece of the content areas

1958
01:28:04.880 --> 01:28:10.240
in videos where you talk about content? So the benefit here is like, okay, well, if they can

1959
01:28:10.240 --> 01:28:13.200
upload a video as part of that process, cause like what you want to do in the onboarding flow

1960
01:28:13.200 --> 01:28:17.280
is try and get it to have the user realize the value of the product as quick as they can. So

1961
01:28:17.280 --> 01:28:22.640
can you get them towards that? That's kind of the product led growth movement. So I have questions

1962
01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:27.840
in here just around that. I'm like, well, you know, we could go down the path of just making

1963
01:28:27.840 --> 01:28:31.840
this like great uploading experience per video, but are the people that are going to be coming,

1964
01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:35.280
the customers are going to be coming into this product actually have a deep library already.

1965
01:28:35.280 --> 01:28:40.080
And we need the friction for them is getting all of that ported over. Then we're probably better

1966
01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:44.640
off solving this from like a data syncing. And if you've seen this with all tools, like notion,

1967
01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:48.880
we'll have a Evernote importer and a, you know, they'll build like more importers to help bring

1968
01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:54.000
you from other tools. Cause a lot of it is the inertia to get over. I need to move all my stuff.

1969
01:28:54.000 --> 01:28:58.400
So that was just sort of like, this is the problem space kind of thing. So like, I can't really solve

1970
01:28:58.400 --> 01:29:02.160
it well, you know, they, they kind of lean more towards this, which I think is fine. It was like

1971
01:29:02.160 --> 01:29:05.600
making a good experience for like, can we make it when they upload a video kind of auto pulls a lot

1972
01:29:05.600 --> 01:29:08.480
of data so they don't have to do a lot of data. So that's kind of where I'm at.

1973
01:29:09.200 --> 01:29:13.040
They don't have to do a lot of data entry. That's fine. So getting a sense there. So like,

1974
01:29:13.040 --> 01:29:19.040
where's the answer to your question? Like there are open loops here. And I, the question you have,

1975
01:29:19.040 --> 01:29:23.920
like the tension point is always, is it something that has to be solved now? Or is, can I like

1976
01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:28.880
solve it now or give more context to it? Or is it something that just needs to happen?

1977
01:29:28.880 --> 01:29:32.160
Once we start building, like, that's always going to be the question you have to ask yourself. It's

1978
01:29:32.160 --> 01:29:36.080
like, can I, can this be answered during building in such a way that it will, like it needs to be

1979
01:29:36.080 --> 01:29:41.680
answered and it will not impact timeline overall. Like, I'm not worried about that one because

1980
01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:45.600
the stripe fund, like the foundations we need to build for stripe. A lot of it's like, and that's

1981
01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:48.880
where I put it in here. We need to make sure we can create plans on the backend and stripe. And

1982
01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:52.640
then if people can select plans on the front end tag, their org, if those pieces are wired up,

1983
01:29:52.640 --> 01:29:56.880
the pricing strategy, it won't be blocking that shift. That was always how I was thinking about

1984
01:29:56.880 --> 01:29:59.920
it, but there's going to be open. I think that's the thing we should.

1985
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:03.320
Shaping is like you're 100% complete on shaping is very hard.

1986
01:30:03.320 --> 01:30:05.400
It's you're not going to have every question answered.

1987
01:30:05.400 --> 01:30:09.080
You're just trying to make sure that you have a pretty bounded and a rough

1988
01:30:09.080 --> 01:30:13.320
solution in general idea that gives the team enough that they can operate within

1989
01:30:13.360 --> 01:30:15.200
and deliver once they're actually like doing the work.

1990
01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:16.000
Yeah.

1991
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:19.080
And I, and of course, like you're working with the team who can say, okay, yeah.

1992
01:30:19.600 --> 01:30:21.920
90% of that is these are all the uphill things.

1993
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:24.240
Like how do we get them into this page?

1994
01:30:24.240 --> 01:30:25.120
How do we get out of this page?

1995
01:30:25.120 --> 01:30:26.560
How do we write that to the database?

1996
01:30:27.120 --> 01:30:27.400
Yes.

1997
01:30:27.400 --> 01:30:31.480
If we can just kind of outsource the questions, cause pricing is just one,

1998
01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:34.800
one of those things is going to change every week if they wanted to experiment

1999
01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:37.560
with sales and discounts and you know, whatever.

2000
01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.280
So that's a, I see you.

2001
01:30:40.280 --> 01:30:44.320
What you're saying is like, um, just basically make it like, cause the idea

2002
01:30:44.320 --> 01:30:47.040
was like, there is selection, meaning there's not just one, so there's

2003
01:30:47.040 --> 01:30:48.520
gotta be more than one option.

2004
01:30:48.520 --> 01:30:53.560
You've kind of used that word, um, to help define like they're making

2005
01:30:53.560 --> 01:30:54.920
a selection at this stage.

2006
01:30:55.120 --> 01:30:58.280
So all they would have to do is mock up one with maybe one or two or three.

2007
01:30:58.320 --> 01:30:58.640
Right.

2008
01:30:58.640 --> 01:31:02.000
And then make sure that there's not 10 subscriptions, right.

2009
01:31:02.360 --> 01:31:06.000
But all the edge cases, but, um, no, that's, that's helpful.

2010
01:31:06.160 --> 01:31:10.960
And I like the idea of like calling out that one question, um, in the, in the,

2011
01:31:11.040 --> 01:31:14.360
like a, what note we call a notion call out to whatever whimsical calls

2012
01:31:14.360 --> 01:31:16.000
they call one of the calls that they call it.

2013
01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:16.320
Call it.

2014
01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:18.800
Let's say whimsical and notion are basically the same thing.

2015
01:31:19.200 --> 01:31:19.680
Yeah.

2016
01:31:20.120 --> 01:31:22.840
I, um, I occasionally, I know one of the whimsical co-founders

2017
01:31:22.840 --> 01:31:23.800
and talk to him occasionally.

2018
01:31:24.080 --> 01:31:25.680
They have a good product, but yeah, they have a lot of things

2019
01:31:25.680 --> 01:31:28.280
where like, they don't like notion, but I'm like, yeah, you guys

2020
01:31:28.280 --> 01:31:29.640
also do a lot of notion things.

2021
01:31:29.640 --> 01:31:30.040
That's fine.

2022
01:31:30.080 --> 01:31:31.400
Notion kind of set the stage moves.

2023
01:31:31.440 --> 01:31:34.520
Like, I mean, if you look at all of their, it's like all of these

2024
01:31:34.520 --> 01:31:37.800
things are very familiar to anyways.

2025
01:31:39.360 --> 01:31:39.600
Yeah.

2026
01:31:40.520 --> 01:31:41.760
Um, that's great.

2027
01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:43.040
I think those types of things are helpful.

2028
01:31:43.040 --> 01:31:46.800
Cause when we get on a call with a client, they can see it in context of like,

2029
01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:50.360
okay, we're talking about this scope or this, you know, upload video section.

2030
01:31:50.360 --> 01:31:51.560
We've got this one question.

2031
01:31:52.080 --> 01:31:55.280
Obviously we could turn that question into a statement once

2032
01:31:55.280 --> 01:31:56.360
we have the answer for it.

2033
01:31:56.960 --> 01:32:00.440
Um, I imagine so I, this is very helpful to see.

2034
01:32:00.440 --> 01:32:00.680
I don't know.

2035
01:32:00.680 --> 01:32:03.560
Hopefully I think everybody else is getting some value out of that, but

2036
01:32:03.560 --> 01:32:06.440
to see, to see the level of detail.

2037
01:32:07.080 --> 01:32:10.600
Um, and is this, I know you're still working on this, but are there any other

2038
01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:12.600
sections that would still get added to this?

2039
01:32:13.880 --> 01:32:16.400
Like, um, yeah.

2040
01:32:17.400 --> 01:32:20.960
So I have like, there's a probably have a pitch template here

2041
01:32:20.960 --> 01:32:22.640
somewhere I could find it.

2042
01:32:26.280 --> 01:32:27.480
No, they're old.

2043
01:32:28.120 --> 01:32:28.320
Yeah.

2044
01:32:28.320 --> 01:32:30.680
This is, this is one that I have that I think I've used.

2045
01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:33.960
Like, so I, this is a more built out version of just like a templated one

2046
01:32:33.960 --> 01:32:38.640
that I do typically, um, or forcing kind of experience.

2047
01:32:38.640 --> 01:32:41.080
So there's another way you can do like for, if you come up with good, like,

2048
01:32:42.080 --> 01:32:44.600
like what, you know, there's a description of just like what problems

2049
01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:47.840
being solved, but then there's a deeper, like, why does it matter?

2050
01:32:47.840 --> 01:32:49.440
Like, why are we actually doing this right now?

2051
01:32:49.440 --> 01:32:51.680
Why is it so critical to be focusing on this problem?

2052
01:32:52.080 --> 01:32:53.760
Then there's also like, well, who's it for?

2053
01:32:53.760 --> 01:32:55.920
Like an understanding around like the person that you're

2054
01:32:55.920 --> 01:32:57.040
solving this problem for.

2055
01:32:57.440 --> 01:33:00.080
The how is where I kind of do like, does it zoomed out?

2056
01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:03.280
Here's like the phases of work, like some of these scopes, like, okay,

2057
01:33:03.280 --> 01:33:04.320
we need to tackle this.

2058
01:33:04.320 --> 01:33:06.280
Like these are the flows that it's going to go through.

2059
01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:09.320
Then I like, I do it this way.

2060
01:33:09.320 --> 01:33:11.880
And like, this is purely a visual thing.

2061
01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:14.680
I just like to show the scopes that I'm going to lay out here.

2062
01:33:14.840 --> 01:33:16.000
So this is the typical one I'll do.

2063
01:33:16.000 --> 01:33:18.960
It's like, okay, here's scope a, B, and C and kind of like

2064
01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:20.440
their individual points below.

2065
01:33:21.040 --> 01:33:24.800
This has, this is just again, placeholder, but you could put sketches.

2066
01:33:25.280 --> 01:33:27.440
Um, I call this area, like the swim lane.

2067
01:33:27.440 --> 01:33:32.400
So it's like no goes any risks and rabbit holes, um, open issues.

2068
01:33:32.440 --> 01:33:34.480
So this one is kind of interesting and this might be helpful for

2069
01:33:34.480 --> 01:33:35.880
you guys to like segment this out.

2070
01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:39.240
But I've, I've done this as like a, it's my working list while I'm shaping,

2071
01:33:39.240 --> 01:33:41.520
like there's still like open loops I need to figure out.

2072
01:33:41.720 --> 01:33:43.600
And these are the tension points where you need to determine.

2073
01:33:43.720 --> 01:33:47.200
Sometimes I leave them in there and it's just like, that's an open issue that

2074
01:33:47.200 --> 01:33:50.720
we need to figure out and the uphill, or it's an open issue that I need to

2075
01:33:50.720 --> 01:33:55.160
get some resolution to, or some confidence around before it gets handed over.

2076
01:33:55.360 --> 01:33:56.720
There's another way to potentially think about it.

2077
01:33:57.120 --> 01:34:00.600
Um, and then the last piece I have in this is I try to do,

2078
01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:01.480
and this was another one.

2079
01:34:01.480 --> 01:34:03.440
I don't know how you guys did this too, but it's like, it's really easy to

2080
01:34:03.440 --> 01:34:06.080
get caught in just like the, they call it like the feature factory, but it's

2081
01:34:06.080 --> 01:34:07.080
like, we're just turning things out.

2082
01:34:07.080 --> 01:34:09.040
But it's like, did that thing do well?

2083
01:34:09.040 --> 01:34:10.520
I think you guys have done a good job with it.

2084
01:34:10.560 --> 01:34:12.560
Cause you're going back and adding notes and doing it.

2085
01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:16.360
Notion keeps it a little bit more up-to-date there, but like what things

2086
01:34:16.360 --> 01:34:20.520
need to be true for this to be considered complete, a user can do this.

2087
01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:21.200
They can do that.

2088
01:34:21.200 --> 01:34:23.680
They can do this and you can go check it off and you have some measurables.

2089
01:34:23.680 --> 01:34:25.320
Like we're trying to move the needle on this.

2090
01:34:25.360 --> 01:34:28.880
So these are sort of like the flip side to the problem statement.

2091
01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:30.320
So it's like, we're trying to solve this problem.

2092
01:34:30.840 --> 01:34:33.120
Did we actually solve it based on these measurables?

2093
01:34:33.120 --> 01:34:36.400
So this is an example, which I can give a link to if you want to.

2094
01:34:36.560 --> 01:34:38.680
I actually think I haven't, I have a notion page and a notion

2095
01:34:38.680 --> 01:34:40.000
version with this exact thing.

2096
01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:43.920
So I could share that, but this is like the most built out one I've done.

2097
01:34:44.240 --> 01:34:50.040
I typically will just fall back into the one that I had previously, like

2098
01:34:50.040 --> 01:34:54.080
this very basic kind of problem outside solution, and then you can

2099
01:34:54.120 --> 01:34:55.280
build on it as much as you want.

2100
01:34:55.280 --> 01:34:57.680
But again, this is more like early product development work.

2101
01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:00.000
That's all.

2102
01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:00.500
Awesome.

2103
01:35:00.500 --> 01:35:01.920
That's helpful.

2104
01:35:01.920 --> 01:35:02.880
Sweet.

2105
01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:05.040
Very, very good.

2106
01:35:05.040 --> 01:35:07.560
I think, to me, the biggest takeaway is just like,

2107
01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:11.160
and maybe you could hear just since we're coming up

2108
01:35:11.160 --> 01:35:13.800
on an hour and a half, just some quick takeaways

2109
01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:15.600
from each person as well.

2110
01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:18.120
For me, it's just like, hey, this is really a presentation

2111
01:35:18.120 --> 01:35:19.920
tool of the finished.

2112
01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:22.400
Once we're finished shaping it and putting everything

2113
01:35:22.400 --> 01:35:25.360
together, this is, we have to do this extra few layers to clean

2114
01:35:25.360 --> 01:35:29.680
it up and present it well with clean headings, organized.

2115
01:35:30.080 --> 01:35:32.760
It needs to feel logical and clear.

2116
01:35:32.760 --> 01:35:35.280
Because I think if it's just us throwing a ton of notes

2117
01:35:35.280 --> 01:35:37.360
and stuff in there, it's not, we haven't really

2118
01:35:37.360 --> 01:35:39.640
fleshed out to that level of being

2119
01:35:39.640 --> 01:35:44.400
able to simplify it at the end down to explain it to people.

2120
01:35:44.400 --> 01:35:45.800
Yeah.

2121
01:35:45.800 --> 01:35:48.200
Yeah, so let's, yeah, Bruce, that was a good call out.

2122
01:35:48.200 --> 01:35:50.840
I'll get caught in this and enjoy it and forget the time.

2123
01:35:50.840 --> 01:35:52.640
But let's, since we've kind of gone,

2124
01:35:52.640 --> 01:35:54.680
we've pretty much gone through these top threes

2125
01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:56.160
or we're sort of in, we've stayed

2126
01:35:56.160 --> 01:35:59.560
in kind of the problem and solution space shaping world.

2127
01:36:00.120 --> 01:36:02.960
Maybe here's a good spot to kind of recap and like come up with.

2128
01:36:02.960 --> 01:36:04.120
And the way I always frame this too,

2129
01:36:04.120 --> 01:36:06.160
is like find some experiments, some small things

2130
01:36:06.160 --> 01:36:08.680
that you can test as a team, just do something

2131
01:36:08.680 --> 01:36:09.160
a little bit different.

2132
01:36:09.160 --> 01:36:10.760
Like maybe it's a new template that you test.

2133
01:36:10.760 --> 01:36:12.920
Maybe we talked about in this framing space,

2134
01:36:12.920 --> 01:36:15.400
maybe it's a set of questions that you go through

2135
01:36:15.400 --> 01:36:18.000
and make sure that you have a strategy for answering

2136
01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:19.680
those questions to try and get to the root cause

2137
01:36:19.680 --> 01:36:20.200
of the problem.

2138
01:36:20.200 --> 01:36:22.640
Like there's some different techniques there.

2139
01:36:22.640 --> 01:36:25.160
I would love to hear, yeah, if anyone has specific takeaways

2140
01:36:25.160 --> 01:36:26.920
based on what we've talked about in this problem space

2141
01:36:26.920 --> 01:36:28.880
and solution space, I think it'd be good for us

2142
01:36:29.640 --> 01:36:32.360
to get down like in those areas.

2143
01:36:32.360 --> 01:36:34.480
What are some things that you can tactically do as a team

2144
01:36:34.480 --> 01:36:36.000
to like test out, see if something works

2145
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:37.200
or any aha moments you've had?

2146
01:36:37.200 --> 01:36:39.240
Because I'm sharing things just on my experience

2147
01:36:39.240 --> 01:36:40.120
and this is how I go through it.

2148
01:36:40.120 --> 01:36:42.280
But I would love to, I want to get some tactical things

2149
01:36:42.280 --> 01:36:43.120
that you can take with you.

2150
01:36:47.400 --> 01:36:48.640
I believe we can start.

2151
01:36:51.360 --> 01:36:52.560
Are you able to hear to me?

2152
01:36:52.560 --> 01:36:54.200
I had my microphone disconnected.

2153
01:36:54.200 --> 01:36:55.080
Okay, awesome.

2154
01:36:55.280 --> 01:36:56.920
Yeah, we got you.

2155
01:36:56.920 --> 01:37:01.920
So I believe my key takeaway was like,

2156
01:37:02.080 --> 01:37:06.040
we discussed it like how customers like to think

2157
01:37:06.040 --> 01:37:09.600
about solutions instead of the problems.

2158
01:37:09.600 --> 01:37:14.000
But I think we too are a little bit guilty of that sometimes

2159
01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:19.000
like in the case that it feels like postponing things

2160
01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:25.440
if you're not like doing the work.

2161
01:37:25.440 --> 01:37:28.520
Sometimes it feels like framing and shaping

2162
01:37:28.520 --> 01:37:30.360
are not like doing the work,

2163
01:37:30.360 --> 01:37:34.440
at least for me as more like developer oriented.

2164
01:37:34.440 --> 01:37:39.440
And the more like I learn about it,

2165
01:37:39.480 --> 01:37:43.120
the more I understand that kind of developing

2166
01:37:43.120 --> 01:37:45.960
is just like a manual, not manual

2167
01:37:45.960 --> 01:37:48.920
because you have a lot of creativity involved

2168
01:37:49.840 --> 01:37:52.120
but it's like a lot more straightforward

2169
01:37:52.120 --> 01:37:53.920
if you really spend your time

2170
01:37:53.920 --> 01:37:56.760
in framing the problem properly

2171
01:37:56.760 --> 01:38:00.560
and actually understanding the situation.

2172
01:38:00.560 --> 01:38:04.680
And it's like the example you give about Algolia

2173
01:38:04.680 --> 01:38:06.400
on the mail is just perfect.

2174
01:38:06.400 --> 01:38:11.240
It's like by just like looking at the situation deeply,

2175
01:38:11.240 --> 01:38:16.160
you are able to think better ways to approach the solution.

2176
01:38:16.160 --> 01:38:20.520
And I think this is at least on my side,

2177
01:38:20.520 --> 01:38:24.280
the most frequent error.

2178
01:38:24.280 --> 01:38:28.080
I believe I can like do a quick look and think,

2179
01:38:28.080 --> 01:38:30.160
oh my God, I understood everything.

2180
01:38:30.160 --> 01:38:33.760
I can just get to coding and open the ADA and let's go.

2181
01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:38.760
But I believe it's good to have like a second thought

2182
01:38:40.440 --> 01:38:43.200
about it and like properly reviewing.

2183
01:38:43.200 --> 01:38:46.680
And I think the document you just showed

2184
01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:49.360
is like beautiful constructed.

2185
01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:53.720
And I believe that's something we should aim for on the end

2186
01:38:53.720 --> 01:38:57.160
because if you can present your ideas clearly

2187
01:38:57.160 --> 01:39:01.240
on a document that's well constructed

2188
01:39:01.240 --> 01:39:03.680
and like easy to read,

2189
01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:07.320
usually that means that you have understood things properly

2190
01:39:07.320 --> 01:39:10.360
because if there are like too many gaps

2191
01:39:10.360 --> 01:39:14.720
and if there are too many like open ended questions,

2192
01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.080
this will reflect on the document itself.

2193
01:39:17.080 --> 01:39:20.000
Like the document will look like too open

2194
01:39:20.000 --> 01:39:23.600
and not like the funnel like you described it.

2195
01:39:23.600 --> 01:39:27.440
I feel like the shaping document must feel like a funnel

2196
01:39:27.440 --> 01:39:31.520
that start like with this broad thing

2197
01:39:31.520 --> 01:39:35.040
that we are approaching and it goes like tunneling down

2198
01:39:35.040 --> 01:39:38.360
until we've got this like this starting point

2199
01:39:38.360 --> 01:39:40.920
that we will use as leverage

2200
01:39:40.920 --> 01:39:43.920
for the next phase of the product building.

2201
01:39:43.920 --> 01:39:48.920
So I believe my key takeaways are around that area.

2202
01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:52.720
Love it.

2203
01:39:58.280 --> 01:40:00.080
Anyone else, any call outs in there?

2204
01:40:00.000 --> 01:40:03.360
like I think of them kind of documenting here is like spend more time in a problem space. I think

2205
01:40:03.360 --> 01:40:08.560
like some potential tactics could be updating the pitch templates include a checklist of questions

2206
01:40:08.560 --> 01:40:11.920
that you need to answer. So like that'll help like make sure these things are answered,

2207
01:40:11.920 --> 01:40:16.640
creates consistency across them. I think it sounded like I heard some thoughts around like

2208
01:40:16.640 --> 01:40:20.240
this is the pitch document. It's sort of the presented state. You know, it's hard to,

2209
01:40:21.040 --> 01:40:24.240
if somebody wrote a pitch document, it's hard for somebody else to come into it and understand

2210
01:40:24.240 --> 01:40:28.640
where it's at. You know, so you have to like understand where, where it is in its life cycle.

2211
01:40:28.640 --> 01:40:32.560
But a lot of the thinking lives outside of that. So there's other artifacts that need to be called

2212
01:40:32.560 --> 01:40:36.320
out and that can be updated in the template. But, and then I had another one, but I think it's

2213
01:40:36.320 --> 01:40:41.200
actually related more to what you're not, I said just about, I think the scopes and kind of like

2214
01:40:41.200 --> 01:40:44.560
the funnel. I like the idea of the funnels. Like you're starting with a big, the appetite is the

2215
01:40:44.560 --> 01:40:48.880
big part, but you're trying to create a good funnel in the pitch document itself. That makes

2216
01:40:48.880 --> 01:40:56.320
a lot of sense. Hey, I want to go next for like takeaways. I really like the thing about like

2217
01:40:56.320 --> 01:41:02.640
presented state, like make it presentable because that gives a like what to work towards.

2218
01:41:03.200 --> 01:41:09.040
Cause sometimes like if I'm shaping, it's a bit, I go with like developer perspective, like, okay,

2219
01:41:09.040 --> 01:41:15.760
like how technically should it work? And I like the idea of like figuring out how it should work,

2220
01:41:15.760 --> 01:41:21.600
should be like in a task that way it can like neatly separated. Like I can like do all the

2221
01:41:21.600 --> 01:41:28.640
research and cause I finally put too many notes in the shaping. Like I go too detailed, but that's

2222
01:41:28.640 --> 01:41:34.800
like really nice that I can just put the technical details and like basically the architecture

2223
01:41:35.600 --> 01:41:40.240
outline. And I could like link from like the shaping. Like if you want to see technical

2224
01:41:40.240 --> 01:41:45.920
notes, go to this page. So that makes it pretty neat. And I think I had another takeaway.

2225
01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:53.680
I like what you put, like the issues and the scorecard in your like template,

2226
01:41:54.240 --> 01:41:59.840
because I find like what, what do we, the way we do, it's like kind of like the work before,

2227
01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:07.440
but you keep updating your shape to like your pitch as you're working on it. It's like, it's

2228
01:42:07.440 --> 01:42:12.800
more of like living documents, like what happened as we were building, just be aware of these issues,

2229
01:42:12.800 --> 01:42:18.640
still like front-facing, be aware of these limitations and like what we ended up being

2230
01:42:18.640 --> 01:42:22.960
building a bit differently, but we think it's still addresses your problem. So like

2231
01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:29.840
all of that is like still surfaced. And I like the idea of like Loon videos to be like more

2232
01:42:30.640 --> 01:42:35.680
accessible to clients. So, so a few good takeaways, feeling good about it.

2233
01:42:36.320 --> 01:42:42.480
Hmm. All right. That's awesome. Yeah, exactly. But just on that note, like

2234
01:42:43.120 --> 01:42:48.720
it, it relates to my question before, right? So it's more of like this perspective of a living

2235
01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:55.840
thing as a, as a, as, as a, as the project goes on, right. In terms of solution, but actually,

2236
01:42:55.840 --> 01:43:02.000
so the problem part is the one that actually has to be more or less fixed before starting,

2237
01:43:02.000 --> 01:43:07.920
but actually the solution part is a living, is a living creature as, as you go by. Right. So yeah.

2238
01:43:07.920 --> 01:43:16.240
And I think I had one, one more. Oh yeah. By the way. Yeah. On that note. So for the problem part,

2239
01:43:16.240 --> 01:43:22.640
right. I know in our template, we have just like a simple, simple problem section and that's it.

2240
01:43:22.640 --> 01:43:29.200
Right. I think your template, the, the, the robust one, right. The, the, the, the longer

2241
01:43:29.200 --> 01:43:36.480
template that you showed, like you had the first three sections actually focusing on the, on two

2242
01:43:36.480 --> 01:43:42.640
of them on the specific, specific of, of the problem. And then actually for whom we are solving

2243
01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:48.480
that problem. Right. Right. So I think this could be, this could be helpful to add maybe to our

2244
01:43:48.480 --> 01:43:56.800
process, like try it out just for, for maybe because that, that helps us then maybe also

2245
01:43:57.520 --> 01:44:02.720
think more in terms of flow, because if you're not, who are you solving it for?

2246
01:44:02.720 --> 01:44:08.240
That's easier than when you are imagining the flow essentially, as you go by what's the important

2247
01:44:08.240 --> 01:44:12.640
thing to solve first and things like that. So yeah, it was those two things mainly.

2248
01:44:14.640 --> 01:44:15.140
Love it.

2249
01:44:17.680 --> 01:44:24.560
As I was reading through your, well, reading through, you showed your template for that.

2250
01:44:24.560 --> 01:44:30.320
And it reminded me a lot of what we did for Bruce, for X tech, for that kind of encyclopedia

2251
01:44:30.320 --> 01:44:37.120
approach. And I remember the feeling, the glossary. Yes. Yes. And so what I like to do was kind of

2252
01:44:37.120 --> 01:44:40.640
linked, right. And notion, you can link different things just by clicking on them, like hyperlinks,

2253
01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:45.840
right. And just going back and forth and quickly seeing, okay, I see how these pieces relate.

2254
01:44:45.840 --> 01:44:50.560
That's kind of reminds me of how this is written. It's written almost like a, I don't want to say a

2255
01:44:50.560 --> 01:44:56.240
product description or manual, but pseudo, right. Saying like, this is calling this thing into

2256
01:44:56.240 --> 01:44:59.920
existence. Like it's actually working this way. The user should be able to do this, this, this.

2257
01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:05.000
And I think that I remember when I was putting that together

2258
01:45:05.000 --> 01:45:08.760
with Bruce and with Anna, it was very much of a,

2259
01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:10.420
your brain sort of said, oh yeah,

2260
01:45:10.420 --> 01:45:11.820
I didn't even think of that,

2261
01:45:11.820 --> 01:45:14.260
but because I'm actually writing it out in long form,

2262
01:45:14.260 --> 01:45:16.660
like the Jeff Bezos kind of Amazon approach,

2263
01:45:16.660 --> 01:45:18.100
it's triggering these thoughts,

2264
01:45:18.100 --> 01:45:20.300
and it spawns other things for me to think about,

2265
01:45:20.300 --> 01:45:21.500
other things to link to,

2266
01:45:21.500 --> 01:45:26.100
and kind of making those kind of linkages in your brain.

2267
01:45:26.100 --> 01:45:28.060
So I think writing out long form,

2268
01:45:28.060 --> 01:45:30.900
spending more time with it, sitting with it,

2269
01:45:30.900 --> 01:45:33.680
and even breadboarding a lot of it, right?

2270
01:45:33.680 --> 01:45:35.600
Because I don't think we do a lot of that,

2271
01:45:35.600 --> 01:45:37.700
at least on the agency side.

2272
01:45:37.700 --> 01:45:39.660
We might make some short sketches,

2273
01:45:39.660 --> 01:45:44.140
but I really like how you use the sticky note kind of thing.

2274
01:45:44.140 --> 01:45:45.260
It's so simple, right?

2275
01:45:45.260 --> 01:45:46.980
Just kind of put it together and, oh, this links to that.

2276
01:45:46.980 --> 01:45:48.580
It just makes more sense, right?

2277
01:45:48.580 --> 01:45:50.620
And not just one breadboard,

2278
01:45:50.620 --> 01:45:52.500
but different competing versions saying,

2279
01:45:52.500 --> 01:45:54.000
well, okay, this is good, better, best,

2280
01:45:54.000 --> 01:45:56.580
or this is one way of doing it, here's another approach.

2281
01:45:56.580 --> 01:45:58.220
Gennano might say, why are we doing it this way?

2282
01:45:58.220 --> 01:45:59.540
We could do it this way, it's more streamlined.

2283
01:45:59.540 --> 01:46:01.540
So I think having it more visual,

2284
01:46:01.540 --> 01:46:03.340
spending more time with it,

2285
01:46:03.340 --> 01:46:06.180
and writing long form really helps, right?

2286
01:46:06.180 --> 01:46:07.520
It takes more time,

2287
01:46:07.520 --> 01:46:09.140
but obviously you get better at something,

2288
01:46:09.140 --> 01:46:11.620
it takes less time, and it's still got the value.

2289
01:46:13.300 --> 01:46:14.140
Yeah.

2290
01:46:15.580 --> 01:46:17.140
Sorry, I didn't want to, go ahead.

2291
01:46:20.660 --> 01:46:22.180
Gennano, I don't know if you were going to add something.

2292
01:46:22.180 --> 01:46:23.300
I don't want to cut you off.

2293
01:46:23.300 --> 01:46:25.500
I was just going to say that I totally agree

2294
01:46:25.740 --> 01:46:26.940
on being more visual.

2295
01:46:26.940 --> 01:46:31.540
It's like this idea of connecting ideas

2296
01:46:31.540 --> 01:46:34.580
and having these competing versions is just awesome.

2297
01:46:34.580 --> 01:46:38.260
If we are able to implement more of this on our workflow,

2298
01:46:38.260 --> 01:46:40.340
I believe it will be very great.

2299
01:46:41.860 --> 01:46:43.020
Yeah, I love that.

2300
01:46:43.020 --> 01:46:45.660
I think that actually, now that I'm thinking about it,

2301
01:46:45.660 --> 01:46:47.540
that's something I would definitely call out.

2302
01:46:47.540 --> 01:46:49.060
Breadboards and sketches,

2303
01:46:49.060 --> 01:46:50.540
I think the pitch thing is,

2304
01:46:50.540 --> 01:46:52.500
there is a lot of, somebody wrote it,

2305
01:46:52.500 --> 01:46:55.340
you've got to read between the lines a little bit.

2306
01:46:56.060 --> 01:46:58.140
You have to try and infer a lot of meaning,

2307
01:46:58.140 --> 01:46:59.740
but when you get into breadboards or sketches,

2308
01:46:59.740 --> 01:47:01.140
when it's more visual like that,

2309
01:47:01.140 --> 01:47:02.980
you were kind of all on the same page.

2310
01:47:02.980 --> 01:47:04.660
You're looking at it like, it forces,

2311
01:47:04.660 --> 01:47:07.180
when I show that flow, it forces me to think,

2312
01:47:07.180 --> 01:47:09.100
this is the screen, these are the things on it.

2313
01:47:09.100 --> 01:47:11.180
It goes to this when I click on this button.

2314
01:47:11.180 --> 01:47:13.220
It really gets you out of the pitch.

2315
01:47:13.220 --> 01:47:15.540
So I think this presented state idea

2316
01:47:15.540 --> 01:47:16.540
feels like it might fit better

2317
01:47:16.540 --> 01:47:18.820
with how you guys are more collaborative with one another

2318
01:47:18.820 --> 01:47:20.700
and all viewing across,

2319
01:47:20.700 --> 01:47:21.860
getting more into that breadboarding.

2320
01:47:21.860 --> 01:47:23.460
And the breadboards, they mentioned it,

2321
01:47:23.500 --> 01:47:26.620
but it's just, find a technique where you can just lay it out

2322
01:47:26.620 --> 01:47:28.300
and kind of see things more visually.

2323
01:47:28.300 --> 01:47:29.180
And that's a great example,

2324
01:47:29.180 --> 01:47:31.300
because I tend to show with the developers,

2325
01:47:31.300 --> 01:47:33.340
I'll always, I'll give them the pitch at the end

2326
01:47:33.340 --> 01:47:34.180
of like the presented thing,

2327
01:47:34.180 --> 01:47:35.860
but if I'm working through some nuances

2328
01:47:35.860 --> 01:47:37.260
that I can't solve technically,

2329
01:47:37.260 --> 01:47:39.060
or I need their input on,

2330
01:47:39.060 --> 01:47:42.140
it's a sketch or a loom video walking through a flow,

2331
01:47:42.140 --> 01:47:43.580
it's flow charts or sketches.

2332
01:47:43.580 --> 01:47:46.180
So I do really believe that's a good place to start from.

2333
01:47:46.180 --> 01:47:49.140
It's just, can you get into more visual work?

2334
01:47:49.140 --> 01:47:50.260
And that's a fun process.

2335
01:47:50.260 --> 01:47:51.460
I come together and like,

2336
01:47:51.460 --> 01:47:53.100
hey, read this doc versus like,

2337
01:47:53.100 --> 01:47:55.980
let's look at this visual together in a FigJam board.

2338
01:47:55.980 --> 01:47:58.300
You can have a good like shaping session around it.

2339
01:47:58.300 --> 01:47:59.140
That can be a lot better.

2340
01:47:59.140 --> 01:48:01.260
So I definitely think that's worth experimenting with.

2341
01:48:01.260 --> 01:48:02.980
And toward the visual perspective,

2342
01:48:02.980 --> 01:48:04.660
this is something I noticed I was doing

2343
01:48:04.660 --> 01:48:06.620
more in the reactive work about bug fixes

2344
01:48:06.620 --> 01:48:07.460
and hey, it shouldn't be like this,

2345
01:48:07.460 --> 01:48:08.660
it should be like that.

2346
01:48:08.660 --> 01:48:11.540
I'm trying to put more of those things

2347
01:48:11.540 --> 01:48:13.260
into the actual feature work.

2348
01:48:13.260 --> 01:48:14.980
So for instance,

2349
01:48:14.980 --> 01:48:16.700
we were just having this discussion the other day,

2350
01:48:16.700 --> 01:48:20.100
Janata, about how do we make this profile section

2351
01:48:20.100 --> 01:48:21.420
of the app work better?

2352
01:48:22.260 --> 01:48:24.580
And look better and be more functional and more streamlined.

2353
01:48:24.580 --> 01:48:26.060
And I literally just went to Twitter.

2354
01:48:26.060 --> 01:48:29.180
I went to, I think, Instagram, other things and examples

2355
01:48:29.180 --> 01:48:31.340
and saying, hey, they got smart people working here.

2356
01:48:31.340 --> 01:48:32.220
They did this already.

2357
01:48:32.220 --> 01:48:35.020
And I would just go into Skitch or into CleanShot

2358
01:48:35.020 --> 01:48:36.980
and just like, dude, do it like this, right?

2359
01:48:36.980 --> 01:48:37.900
We don't need this button.

2360
01:48:37.900 --> 01:48:39.940
Just make it over the profile photo or whatever.

2361
01:48:39.940 --> 01:48:41.580
And it's instantly recognizable

2362
01:48:41.580 --> 01:48:43.180
because we all use these apps, right?

2363
01:48:43.180 --> 01:48:44.620
Instead of being like typing it out

2364
01:48:44.620 --> 01:48:46.580
and it's like a three bullet list.

2365
01:48:46.580 --> 01:48:48.820
It's just, it doesn't, it's not as evocative, right?

2366
01:48:48.860 --> 01:48:52.540
So call outs and kind of not just sketches,

2367
01:48:52.540 --> 01:48:55.060
but screen grabs beg, borrow, steal

2368
01:48:55.060 --> 01:48:56.900
from other successful applications

2369
01:48:56.900 --> 01:48:58.380
that accomplish our objective.

2370
01:48:59.340 --> 01:49:01.940
It's like a picture's worth a thousand words, right?

2371
01:49:02.980 --> 01:49:03.820
Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about,

2372
01:49:03.820 --> 01:49:04.660
it's a mental model too.

2373
01:49:04.660 --> 01:49:06.060
It's like, if you show somebody,

2374
01:49:06.060 --> 01:49:07.060
that's why I always say,

2375
01:49:07.060 --> 01:49:08.860
when people describe like new products,

2376
01:49:08.860 --> 01:49:10.060
it's like, it's like Airbnb,

2377
01:49:10.060 --> 01:49:12.620
but for, they'll pick some other org.

2378
01:49:12.620 --> 01:49:14.140
It's because you just take a mental model

2379
01:49:14.140 --> 01:49:15.340
people know about and you apply it.

2380
01:49:15.340 --> 01:49:17.060
So I do think in this process it works too,

2381
01:49:17.060 --> 01:49:18.620
because you're trying to take something

2382
01:49:18.620 --> 01:49:20.020
that's existing today.

2383
01:49:20.020 --> 01:49:21.900
This is all, we're all remixing stuff.

2384
01:49:21.900 --> 01:49:23.340
I'm sure as you're building products,

2385
01:49:23.340 --> 01:49:24.180
like we do it all the time.

2386
01:49:24.180 --> 01:49:26.700
It's like, all those flows are things

2387
01:49:26.700 --> 01:49:27.780
that have been done before,

2388
01:49:27.780 --> 01:49:30.260
signing into an app, creating an organization.

2389
01:49:30.260 --> 01:49:31.340
You can find the novelty

2390
01:49:31.340 --> 01:49:32.860
and some of the innovation points in there,

2391
01:49:32.860 --> 01:49:34.100
but they're still good.

2392
01:49:34.100 --> 01:49:35.900
The mental models are useful in software

2393
01:49:35.900 --> 01:49:38.460
because customers are used to those same things.

2394
01:49:38.460 --> 01:49:41.260
So that's why like, Instagram did stories

2395
01:49:41.260 --> 01:49:43.100
and then all these other products started doing it too.

2396
01:49:43.100 --> 01:49:44.780
They're all very similar UI patterns

2397
01:49:44.780 --> 01:49:46.180
because they're building off

2398
01:49:46.180 --> 01:49:48.260
of that existing mental model people have

2399
01:49:48.260 --> 01:49:49.980
and then finding their own little ways to remix it.

2400
01:49:49.980 --> 01:49:51.860
So yeah, I think more visual,

2401
01:49:51.860 --> 01:49:55.660
it sounds like more visual is definitely a big theme there.

2402
01:49:55.660 --> 01:49:56.620
And then Chris, while you were talking,

2403
01:49:56.620 --> 01:49:58.660
I wrote out, this is another one I thought about earlier

2404
01:49:58.660 --> 01:50:00.100
just too, with some of the...

2405
01:50:00.000 --> 01:50:03.920
i'm looking kind of catching up on all the chat stuff you guys been adding and like i think

2406
01:50:03.920 --> 01:50:09.200
writing those figuring things out kind of uphill to do's or trying to like how will we like the

2407
01:50:09.200 --> 01:50:13.840
thing you can do in notion that's cool too is like if you're if you could i don't know how you're

2408
01:50:13.840 --> 01:50:17.440
doing it with the task but even if you like tag something i think the thing i'm trying to call

2409
01:50:17.440 --> 01:50:21.280
like as a developer if you're documenting something it's good to flag the things that

2410
01:50:21.280 --> 01:50:25.520
the person who shaped or like still needs some thinking could kind of come in on that can help

2411
01:50:25.520 --> 01:50:29.200
a lot and that's i always call it's like raising the flag it's like all right so like what's the

2412
01:50:29.200 --> 01:50:33.360
bat signal for somebody on my team i always tell them like here's how you do it like if you create

2413
01:50:33.360 --> 01:50:37.760
a to-do for me and it's like that's the question you give me the context i can go and like okay

2414
01:50:37.760 --> 01:50:40.960
that's a great call every time it's like yeah i missed that that's a great call out but here's

2415
01:50:40.960 --> 01:50:44.880
the problem okay let's try this and then we talk through it but if you can surface those things i

2416
01:50:44.880 --> 01:50:49.600
think it'll help a lot because it is like it we our mind are very like well execute on it what's

2417
01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:55.040
the downhill work but you can you know we need to figure things out and seeing that again visually

2418
01:50:55.040 --> 01:51:02.800
seeing those to-do's might be really helpful let's see who else any other from kind of on

2419
01:51:02.800 --> 01:51:10.720
the framing shaping side any other tactics takeaways that i have not captured at least

2420
01:51:14.800 --> 01:51:21.200
i definitely this would be something for 2025 but i would love to like just mess around with linear

2421
01:51:21.280 --> 01:51:24.720
as well because it's always fun to play with the new shiny object

2422
01:51:27.360 --> 01:51:32.000
so i could show you any linear stuff too if you're just interested in that we can also do that a

2423
01:51:32.000 --> 01:51:35.840
separate time i could show there's probably some areas i've had to do because i had to onboard all

2424
01:51:35.840 --> 01:51:39.920
the teams to it i'm the tool person so i have to like onboard everybody to the tool teach them how

2425
01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:44.720
to use it make sure our process fits which again like the whole the shape of things here is just

2426
01:51:44.720 --> 01:51:49.200
like i mean fundamentally linear is no different than most other things it does the same fundamental

2427
01:51:49.200 --> 01:51:53.680
things i think the thing you might like about it that i call out that i've found useful is it does

2428
01:51:53.680 --> 01:51:58.400
a lot better job of taking it taking the thing from like it starts here and it stays all the

2429
01:51:58.400 --> 01:52:03.040
way through and it just changes hands but you see it as like one continuous flow that's been really

2430
01:52:03.040 --> 01:52:07.280
nice because it's like all have a body of work like that subscriptions is on a timeline and i'm

2431
01:52:07.280 --> 01:52:10.960
the lead shaping it right now when i'm done i'm going to just give it to a different developer

2432
01:52:10.960 --> 01:52:13.680
i'm just going to sign them to the lead and i'm going to change it to building and then it's on

2433
01:52:13.680 --> 01:52:17.280
their plate but it's all and like the pitch is there and it'll go through the whole and i have

2434
01:52:17.280 --> 01:52:21.840
you know we complete the milestones we do like a loom demo on each of them so it's a good product

2435
01:52:21.840 --> 01:52:26.720
i mean they built a really nice one but yeah i like notion too so yeah and like you're either

2436
01:52:26.720 --> 01:52:32.320
adopting some some of their workflow but then like the way that you guys are using linear is probably

2437
01:52:33.200 --> 01:52:37.200
there probably some insights there as well which could be helpful because also you're breaking it

2438
01:52:37.760 --> 01:52:42.240
you have multiple projects across maybe multiple clients it's all in the same like you know how

2439
01:52:42.240 --> 01:52:48.240
are you organizing that to kind of see it at the right level but yeah we we've definitely

2440
01:52:48.240 --> 01:52:54.240
hit some growing pains on the i think on the tech that we've got like the tasks are a lot to track

2441
01:52:54.240 --> 01:52:59.920
in notion we tried to simplify it and it kind of worked and i feel like we outgrew it at some point

2442
01:52:59.920 --> 01:53:05.920
so as far as like i think tasks could move to linear and the pitches obviously could stay

2443
01:53:05.920 --> 01:53:14.880
and the projects could stay in notion as far as like how we're doing that but sweet that's good

2444
01:53:14.880 --> 01:53:18.560
yeah and i i put i'm sorry just looking through chat and i'm also seeing some of the conversation

2445
01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:22.000
that is helpful too i think like there was a question around like bruce you said questions

2446
01:53:22.000 --> 01:53:26.800
the tasks and notions helpful clean up the pitch area and then you guys talked about decisions and

2447
01:53:26.800 --> 01:53:32.560
that was that was a very important call out too if you just focus on the execution focus tasks

2448
01:53:32.560 --> 01:53:37.520
those are the result of the trade-offs you made so like you're saying i decided we're going to go

2449
01:53:37.520 --> 01:53:42.640
this route so i created a task to represent that so if you don't document like the question you

2450
01:53:42.640 --> 01:53:47.200
were trying to answer you do lose some context so like that conversation i was talking about like

2451
01:53:47.200 --> 01:53:52.160
context is king like the thing that will save you is understanding those changes over time

2452
01:53:52.160 --> 01:53:56.000
especially if you're doing maintenance work down the line i can't tell you how many conversations

2453
01:53:56.000 --> 01:54:00.240
we had like the development teams were like i know we made this decision for a reason we had

2454
01:54:00.240 --> 01:54:04.800
a long conversation about it but it was six months ago eight months ago we cannot for the life of us

2455
01:54:04.800 --> 01:54:09.280
remember what it was so whatever your breadcrumb trail is i've even with this project i'm talking

2456
01:54:09.280 --> 01:54:14.400
about i have a spreadsheet called a project log and i write a it's either a discussion a data point

2457
01:54:14.400 --> 01:54:18.400
or decision and i just create a line every time and a lot of it's like on the client side it does

2458
01:54:18.400 --> 01:54:22.400
have kind of your cover your ass sort of thing too is helpful but i do have that in there because

2459
01:54:22.400 --> 01:54:26.400
it's like we agreed over email to do this they said the priority is this decision was made here

2460
01:54:26.400 --> 01:54:30.560
so like wherever you want to put it but i think you can naturally surface it through there and

2461
01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:33.760
that's how you'll really get better about trade-offs and you'll also get better at identifying what

2462
01:54:33.760 --> 01:54:37.520
trade-offs there might be so i think that's where shaping gets improved over time but it's like you

2463
01:54:37.520 --> 01:54:42.400
have to build that muscle i love that decisions made thing we did when i was a consultant we

2464
01:54:42.400 --> 01:54:47.360
literally had a log of that it's like a it's like a change log right it's like who proposed it who

2465
01:54:47.360 --> 01:54:53.280
approved that and what we're doing instead what was the trade-off list i like that yeah i know

2466
01:54:53.280 --> 01:54:59.760
you had like a decisions log actually in the git repo for tribe and so

2467
01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:02.100
And again, it's one of those things we're like,

2468
01:55:02.100 --> 01:55:03.440
oh, maybe we should bring that back

2469
01:55:03.440 --> 01:55:04.280
now that you're interested.

2470
01:55:04.280 --> 01:55:07.840
Yeah, I remember this was like a developer

2471
01:55:07.840 --> 01:55:09.360
really centric focus.

2472
01:55:09.360 --> 01:55:11.840
Like what we're talking about is like more on the product.

2473
01:55:11.840 --> 01:55:13.800
But yeah, it's like, what was it called?

2474
01:55:13.800 --> 01:55:18.260
Architecture Decision Record, ADR.

2475
01:55:20.480 --> 01:55:22.400
But again, it's like a good habit,

2476
01:55:22.400 --> 01:55:25.280
but neglected somehow, so we just stopped doing it.

2477
01:55:27.560 --> 01:55:29.080
Yeah.

2478
01:55:29.120 --> 01:55:30.920
Okay, there's a lot of good takeaways here

2479
01:55:30.920 --> 01:55:31.760
and tactics here.

2480
01:55:31.760 --> 01:55:33.040
I wanna, I know acknowledging time,

2481
01:55:33.040 --> 01:55:34.840
like we're coming up on almost an hour left,

2482
01:55:34.840 --> 01:55:35.680
which is fine.

2483
01:55:35.680 --> 01:55:37.160
I think we should spend time on kind of building

2484
01:55:37.160 --> 01:55:39.560
and that phase here.

2485
01:55:39.560 --> 01:55:41.120
But I do want to, we can also take,

2486
01:55:41.120 --> 01:55:42.600
if everybody wants to do like a five minute break

2487
01:55:42.600 --> 01:55:43.840
and then we can top of the hour,

2488
01:55:43.840 --> 01:55:45.000
circle back, buy a break.

2489
01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:47.520
I know we've been going strong for a while.

2490
01:55:47.520 --> 01:55:48.340
So we'll do that.

2491
01:55:48.340 --> 01:55:49.580
And then when we come back, we'll do,

2492
01:55:49.580 --> 01:55:51.280
and like, let's go through the building phases,

2493
01:55:51.280 --> 01:55:52.640
talk specifically about putting those features

2494
01:55:52.640 --> 01:55:54.880
and then try and make sure we get some of these takeaways

2495
01:55:54.880 --> 01:55:57.080
and the next steps and then like an additional Q&A stuff

2496
01:55:57.080 --> 01:55:58.400
that I can answer and help with.

2497
01:55:58.800 --> 01:55:59.640
We'll do that.

2498
01:55:59.640 --> 01:56:01.240
So just top of the hour, we'll come back.

2499
01:56:01.240 --> 01:56:02.400
Awesome, thanks Drew.

2500
01:56:02.400 --> 01:56:03.240
Thanks everybody.

2501
02:00:00.000 --> 02:00:02.060
you

2502
02:00:30.000 --> 02:00:32.060
you

2503
02:01:00.000 --> 02:01:02.060
you

2504
02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:32.060
you

2505
02:02:00.000 --> 02:02:02.060
you

2506
02:02:30.000 --> 02:02:32.000
you

2507
02:02:32.000 --> 02:03:01.840
how's it going there sorry i had my speakers turned off i don't know if you

2508
02:03:01.840 --> 02:03:08.480
are saying anything no it's been great so far so appreciate you taking us through it

2509
02:03:09.520 --> 02:03:15.200
no of course like i said this is it i didn't have like a strict like i had this like rough

2510
02:03:15.200 --> 02:03:18.960
format but it's like let's we'll go where it needs to go but hopefully everybody feels like you know

2511
02:03:18.960 --> 02:03:22.640
there's stuff to call out or i can share examples or see examples you have and get into the more

2512
02:03:22.640 --> 02:03:26.560
nitty gritty which i think in the building spot seems like we have a lot there i think in the

2513
02:03:27.120 --> 02:03:31.360
where we got to from framing and shaping so i feel like in this building this is a good space

2514
02:03:31.840 --> 02:03:35.120
maybe get into some of the details of like what does it look like a notion how do things flow

2515
02:03:35.120 --> 02:03:43.440
through and um get a sense for that and like these are you know how this happens like picking what to

2516
02:03:43.440 --> 02:03:47.840
work on who works on what make sure you know time tracking i guess will be around like the reactive

2517
02:03:47.840 --> 02:03:53.600
and maintenance work and then you know trade-off decisions and actually who decides that how that

2518
02:03:53.600 --> 02:04:00.720
process looks so got a lot to get through but we can do it yeah that's good and i think just

2519
02:04:00.720 --> 02:04:07.840
having us focus on this for you know intense time helps us just get clarity and talk about it

2520
02:04:07.840 --> 02:04:17.680
first just being uh in in the day-to-day um so it's good good exercise yep yeah no actually

2521
02:04:17.680 --> 02:04:21.200
while people are still trickling in or anybody who wants to get like the only thing i didn't

2522
02:04:21.200 --> 02:04:24.720
really cover i'd love to hear is just like in general like what are the you talked about the

2523
02:04:24.720 --> 02:04:29.920
monthly cadence but like team rhythms so it's like we like or i'll give you an example like the way

2524
02:04:29.920 --> 02:04:36.240
i think about it is you know there's got to be some sort of like betting like the idea of a

2525
02:04:36.240 --> 02:04:41.200
betting table people come together to review some work and figure out what to work on there's like

2526
02:04:41.200 --> 02:04:45.040
the plan the cycle plan it's like all right here's what we're going to work on this is who's working

2527
02:04:45.040 --> 02:04:48.560
on what and for how much time links out to the pitches or whatever the work is going to live

2528
02:04:49.120 --> 02:04:53.360
there's like the kickoff i'll do typically the team it's like let's all look at all the pitches

2529
02:04:53.360 --> 02:04:58.000
and walk through all the work um like a retro where you're like after the end of things so that's

2530
02:04:58.000 --> 02:05:00.080
like what are the rhythms because that also might actually

2531
02:05:00.000 --> 02:05:01.120
help in the building phase.

2532
02:05:01.120 --> 02:05:03.280
Like if there's, if there's something that's consistent or if it's

2533
02:05:03.280 --> 02:05:05.760
different on both sides, I'd love to hear how that works.

2534
02:05:08.720 --> 02:05:11.200
Yeah, I think, I mean, we definitely, one takeaway is like, we got to

2535
02:05:11.200 --> 02:05:14.440
figure out a good cadence, like monthly.

2536
02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:19.480
Like that's one takeaway for me was like, we, we have kind of let the

2537
02:05:19.480 --> 02:05:23.720
clients dictate that cadence because it, they worked in months and they

2538
02:05:23.720 --> 02:05:27.440
have monthly payroll and they have monthly expenses, so, and then we also

2539
02:05:27.440 --> 02:05:31.360
do, so we've kind of just set our billing and everything to match that.

2540
02:05:31.960 --> 02:05:34.880
There's probably, I mean, it's just to keep it simple, but it's not saying

2541
02:05:34.880 --> 02:05:40.000
it's impossible to do six weeks on and then two weeks cool down and then go

2542
02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:43.640
back into projects and kind of break it up that way, it's just a little bit more

2543
02:05:43.640 --> 02:05:47.720
admin on our side to maybe like, let's say build four, four weeks and then

2544
02:05:47.720 --> 02:05:49.000
build the next two weeks or so.

2545
02:05:49.000 --> 02:05:52.000
So we might have like less consistency month to month.

2546
02:05:52.520 --> 02:05:58.440
So there's some trade-offs there for us as far as like trying to keep it simple.

2547
02:05:58.480 --> 02:06:02.320
The main thing though, again, to go back to the problem of this is that we do

2548
02:06:02.320 --> 02:06:04.120
need to have some margin for sure.

2549
02:06:04.480 --> 02:06:10.400
And I think even a three, like three weeks and then a one week kind of reactive

2550
02:06:10.440 --> 02:06:13.480
stuff where things are getting ready to get shipped and then you kind of start

2551
02:06:13.480 --> 02:06:14.920
the next month again, could work.

2552
02:06:15.440 --> 02:06:19.360
That would be a lot of our projects are two in one week.

2553
02:06:19.400 --> 02:06:22.360
Like we're kind of stuck in that two to one week spot.

2554
02:06:23.080 --> 02:06:25.040
Um, so I don't know.

2555
02:06:25.120 --> 02:06:26.200
We'll, we'll have to see.

2556
02:06:28.640 --> 02:06:29.000
Yeah.

2557
02:06:29.120 --> 02:06:29.400
Okay.

2558
02:06:29.440 --> 02:06:31.680
I mean, which, and if we get into this, like I can totally help with that

2559
02:06:31.680 --> 02:06:34.240
cause I've done that with so many different random cadences and trying to

2560
02:06:34.240 --> 02:06:36.560
figure out how it lines out, like we wanted to look at it if there was like a

2561
02:06:36.560 --> 02:06:40.120
specific example, cause that could be helpful.

2562
02:06:40.120 --> 02:06:43.640
I think the, the thing I always recommend is like make a small step change.

2563
02:06:43.640 --> 02:06:47.840
So even if it is just like, you're going to try a three week, three weeks on one

2564
02:06:48.600 --> 02:06:49.280
kind of cool down.

2565
02:06:49.520 --> 02:06:51.920
And I don't know if you guys have this problem, but we keep hearing it's like

2566
02:06:51.960 --> 02:06:54.680
cool down was like an interesting language choice, like in the product

2567
02:06:54.680 --> 02:06:57.120
space, it's cool to talk about, but like with clients, like, what

2568
02:06:57.120 --> 02:06:58.240
do you mean you're cooling down?

2569
02:06:58.240 --> 02:06:58.640
What are you?

2570
02:06:59.200 --> 02:07:02.400
Yeah, that's not your, so you're not, you're not working, but you still have to

2571
02:07:02.400 --> 02:07:06.000
pay for it, but the funny part is you actually end up doing like, I always say

2572
02:07:06.000 --> 02:07:10.520
like my, my work is like the cool down is where like most of the work happens.

2573
02:07:10.520 --> 02:07:13.640
It's like, I feel like it gets a little bit calmer once the cycle starts, I'm

2574
02:07:13.640 --> 02:07:17.280
kind of looking ahead and that's, that's fine, but it's really like a ramp up.

2575
02:07:17.280 --> 02:07:18.600
So, I mean, you can just change language.

2576
02:07:18.600 --> 02:07:21.360
I tend to just say like, we work in four, you could say we work in four week cycles.

2577
02:07:21.440 --> 02:07:22.160
How you break that down.

2578
02:07:22.160 --> 02:07:22.880
It doesn't really matter.

2579
02:07:22.880 --> 02:07:24.800
It's just, you know, we're going to lay these things out this way.

2580
02:07:25.000 --> 02:07:28.640
And then fixes and improvements is your, it's like, or the product.

2581
02:07:28.640 --> 02:07:30.840
So for the features to work well, it's like, you're going to have feedback.

2582
02:07:30.840 --> 02:07:31.560
So we're going to release it.

2583
02:07:31.560 --> 02:07:33.840
And then we're gonna have a week where like, we're cleaning up those things and

2584
02:07:33.960 --> 02:07:35.800
getting ready for the next round or something.

2585
02:07:36.400 --> 02:07:40.840
We do have like a project called, it's just called reactive work, like

2586
02:07:40.840 --> 02:07:43.320
for tribe or for each client.

2587
02:07:43.360 --> 02:07:45.520
And so these things are just stuff that kind of accumulates.

2588
02:07:45.920 --> 02:07:48.320
They're just a bunch of random, small things.

2589
02:07:48.800 --> 02:07:52.040
So that's, we've kind of, we've actually talked to the clients like that.

2590
02:07:52.040 --> 02:07:54.800
Like, Hey, this is, we've got these two weeks in for the month, because

2591
02:07:54.800 --> 02:07:58.040
this is what's going to cover, you know, 50 hours over here to just

2592
02:07:58.040 --> 02:07:59.520
do a bunch of stuff that comes up.

2593
02:08:00.240 --> 02:08:01.680
So anyway.

2594
02:08:02.720 --> 02:08:02.920
No.

2595
02:08:04.920 --> 02:08:05.200
Okay.

2596
02:08:05.240 --> 02:08:06.760
So it sounds like that's, that's part of the rhythm.

2597
02:08:06.760 --> 02:08:11.240
So is there any, like before the work starts, is there any like official

2598
02:08:11.280 --> 02:08:13.480
kickoff or the team's kind of reviewing what that work looks like?

2599
02:08:16.080 --> 02:08:18.160
I mean, no, not, not really.

2600
02:08:18.760 --> 02:08:22.160
Uh, I don't think we've done, I think we've tried to get in the cadence with

2601
02:08:22.160 --> 02:08:25.240
like, Chris and Janata have the most consistency because we have like, we're

2602
02:08:25.240 --> 02:08:28.080
on a set four or five weeks with the client each month.

2603
02:08:28.640 --> 02:08:31.680
And so we're trying to get it to where like, Hey, we're already shaping stuff.

2604
02:08:32.200 --> 02:08:34.080
It's kind of set by like the middle of the month.

2605
02:08:34.520 --> 02:08:37.720
Clients like approving the work for the next month by that, you know, then that

2606
02:08:37.720 --> 02:08:42.400
way there's a good week or two of margin to talk about it, kick ideas back and

2607
02:08:42.400 --> 02:08:45.680
forth to that by the time December 1st rolls around, like we're ready

2608
02:08:45.680 --> 02:08:48.760
to rock with the, with that, that project.

2609
02:08:49.400 --> 02:08:53.800
Um, that's the most we've been like ahead of schedule.

2610
02:08:54.040 --> 02:08:59.400
The other stuff, like it tends to kind of just be, um, a little mix of

2611
02:08:59.400 --> 02:09:01.320
shaping and all that stuff together.

2612
02:09:01.320 --> 02:09:03.760
So we're still, we're not quite as disciplined on, on tribe,

2613
02:09:03.760 --> 02:09:04.720
but we're working on it.

2614
02:09:05.800 --> 02:09:06.080
Okay.

2615
02:09:06.120 --> 02:09:06.400
Yeah.

2616
02:09:06.480 --> 02:09:06.680
No.

2617
02:09:06.800 --> 02:09:09.120
So I think that might play into that.

2618
02:09:09.160 --> 02:09:11.800
If you get that little bit of margin, that's probably the spot where you'll

2619
02:09:11.800 --> 02:09:15.800
be able to do more of more of that potentially coming together.

2620
02:09:15.960 --> 02:09:19.160
The kickoff thing that's been interesting is like, if I have, if it's a bigger

2621
02:09:19.160 --> 02:09:22.760
team and everybody's working on different features, it's still a good place for

2622
02:09:22.760 --> 02:09:26.320
everyone to review all the features at once, because that happens a lot where

2623
02:09:26.320 --> 02:09:28.560
it's like, well, some developer actually worked on this part of the code base

2624
02:09:28.560 --> 02:09:31.240
previously, and they can share some knowledge or this team finishes early.

2625
02:09:31.240 --> 02:09:32.840
So like you get some synergy there.

2626
02:09:32.840 --> 02:09:35.600
At least if you share across both teams can get a sense for all the

2627
02:09:35.600 --> 02:09:37.080
work everyone's doing at once.

2628
02:09:37.080 --> 02:09:38.400
So you could probably do a combined one.

2629
02:09:39.200 --> 02:09:42.160
What does, you know, January, 2025 look like?

2630
02:09:42.160 --> 02:09:45.200
Like you kind of have like a, if you're coming up on it, like the end, last

2631
02:09:45.200 --> 02:09:48.080
week of this year going next year, however you want to line it up, looks

2632
02:09:48.080 --> 02:09:51.760
like some sort of, and you can figure out what the cadences are, but that's

2633
02:09:51.760 --> 02:09:53.120
just the example for that one.

2634
02:09:53.520 --> 02:09:57.400
And then what about with like a, is there any sort of like retros or reviews

2635
02:09:57.400 --> 02:10:00.040
that happen more officially, or is that just sort of ad hoc?

2636
02:10:00.000 --> 02:10:03.000
talk kind of when they can.

2637
02:10:03.000 --> 02:10:07.160
Yeah, we do need to do more regular check-ins.

2638
02:10:07.160 --> 02:10:09.640
We've even been talking with like Lucian and Janata,

2639
02:10:09.640 --> 02:10:12.800
doing like a tech check monthly, kind of just syncing up

2640
02:10:12.800 --> 02:10:15.840
and seeing, are we using, just from a tech standpoint,

2641
02:10:15.840 --> 02:10:20.760
are we being consistent across the tech that we're using

2642
02:10:20.760 --> 02:10:23.760
and processes and all that?

2643
02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:26.480
But yes, we do need to do some review as well.

2644
02:10:26.480 --> 02:10:28.200
So that is saying that the review and sort

2645
02:10:28.200 --> 02:10:33.800
of the prep for the next cycle would be in that cool down.

2646
02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:36.080
Yeah, so we'll typically do like,

2647
02:10:36.080 --> 02:10:37.840
I call it one's just like the team retro.

2648
02:10:37.840 --> 02:10:40.160
So we get everybody together, talk about the last cycle,

2649
02:10:40.160 --> 02:10:42.080
how it went, like learnings you had,

2650
02:10:42.080 --> 02:10:43.840
some things that you can experiment on in the next

2651
02:10:43.840 --> 02:10:44.240
cycle.

2652
02:10:44.240 --> 02:10:46.120
So that's a good way to get in a good feedback loop.

2653
02:10:46.120 --> 02:10:48.240
And it's like, you learn something cycle to cycle,

2654
02:10:48.240 --> 02:10:50.120
project to project, so you can kind of implement things

2655
02:10:50.120 --> 02:10:50.920
as you go.

2656
02:10:50.920 --> 02:10:53.040
And then you would have like a cycle kickoff,

2657
02:10:53.040 --> 02:10:53.800
is what I call it.

2658
02:10:53.800 --> 02:10:55.260
But again, you could combine those.

2659
02:10:55.260 --> 02:10:57.520
It could just be like, how did the last thing go?

2660
02:10:57.520 --> 02:10:59.720
And kind of like, let's prep for the next one,

2661
02:10:59.720 --> 02:11:01.320
like make it more lightweight.

2662
02:11:01.320 --> 02:11:02.520
Because I've also heard some of those.

2663
02:11:02.520 --> 02:11:04.520
There's lots of artifacts, lots of meetings.

2664
02:11:04.520 --> 02:11:06.280
So if you sandwich too much stuff in there,

2665
02:11:06.280 --> 02:11:09.000
it can get a little bit, be a little bit too much.

2666
02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.720
So it might be worth, again, find

2667
02:11:10.720 --> 02:11:12.000
your expression of what works.

2668
02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.540
But maybe it's a touch point, really.

2669
02:11:13.540 --> 02:11:15.800
It's like everyone can review the work

2670
02:11:15.800 --> 02:11:18.600
they're about to do together and reflect on the work

2671
02:11:18.600 --> 02:11:19.920
that you did to learn.

2672
02:11:19.920 --> 02:11:21.640
Like those are the principles that you're

2673
02:11:21.640 --> 02:11:24.160
trying to adhere to, if you can experiment with that.

2674
02:11:24.160 --> 02:11:26.280
So I think this would probably lead into that.

2675
02:11:26.280 --> 02:11:28.840
If you had more of a experiment with some sort of one-way

2676
02:11:28.840 --> 02:11:30.640
cool-down, it's like try to have some,

2677
02:11:30.640 --> 02:11:33.880
maybe just introduce like one something,

2678
02:11:33.880 --> 02:11:38.440
some one kind of rhythm for reviewing work and looking

2679
02:11:38.440 --> 02:11:41.960
ahead and retro, kind of looking ahead at the same time.

2680
02:11:41.960 --> 02:11:44.120
Let's throw that in here, at least as like an idea.

2681
02:11:47.920 --> 02:11:51.520
That's like a retro, so that was really like a review.

2682
02:11:51.520 --> 02:11:53.920
Yeah, let's not use retro.

2683
02:11:53.920 --> 02:11:56.200
You can't use too much agile language in there.

2684
02:11:56.200 --> 02:11:57.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

2685
02:11:57.720 --> 02:11:58.400
That's true.

2686
02:11:58.400 --> 02:12:01.920
Experiment with it, like it was like review meeting and that.

2687
02:12:01.920 --> 02:12:05.480
We've been traumatized, as you can tell.

2688
02:12:05.480 --> 02:12:06.600
Oh, I know, yeah.

2689
02:12:06.600 --> 02:12:09.680
Well, if somebody says sprints, I just, you know,

2690
02:12:09.680 --> 02:12:10.840
my skin starts melting.

2691
02:12:10.840 --> 02:12:13.320
So I try to avoid it as much as we can.

2692
02:12:13.320 --> 02:12:15.760
Velocity, it's OK.

2693
02:12:15.760 --> 02:12:16.680
We've all been there.

2694
02:12:16.680 --> 02:12:17.840
It's fine.

2695
02:12:17.840 --> 02:12:18.960
OK, so that's helpful.

2696
02:12:18.960 --> 02:12:20.240
So I think, yeah, that's another one I call it,

2697
02:12:20.240 --> 02:12:22.600
because I think I'm big on figuring that out, too.

2698
02:12:22.600 --> 02:12:23.320
Like what are the rhythms?

2699
02:12:23.320 --> 02:12:24.920
And you don't want it to be so overwhelming,

2700
02:12:24.920 --> 02:12:28.160
because like, you know, in the or for in this building phase,

2701
02:12:28.160 --> 02:12:30.760
too, obviously, we've talked about like the critical thing

2702
02:12:30.760 --> 02:12:32.440
here is that like this work is hard.

2703
02:12:32.440 --> 02:12:33.920
It's cognitively demanding,

2704
02:12:33.920 --> 02:12:35.760
especially if you're handing over work to developers.

2705
02:12:35.760 --> 02:12:36.800
I think about how to break it down.

2706
02:12:36.800 --> 02:12:37.720
They got to write tasks.

2707
02:12:37.720 --> 02:12:38.920
They got to make trade off decisions.

2708
02:12:38.920 --> 02:12:41.120
All these like little hundreds of tiny little decisions

2709
02:12:41.440 --> 02:12:43.400
are happening while the work's going on.

2710
02:12:43.400 --> 02:12:45.400
So focus, uninterrupted focus work matters,

2711
02:12:45.400 --> 02:12:46.680
especially if you're kind of shrinking it down.

2712
02:12:46.680 --> 02:12:48.360
It's like we got three weeks to go against it.

2713
02:12:48.360 --> 02:12:52.320
So just it's the constant tension you have to be mindful of with that.

2714
02:12:52.320 --> 02:12:55.400
And, you know, Lucian, I know you talked about like tracking deep work.

2715
02:12:55.400 --> 02:12:56.360
It's like I'm a huge fan of that.

2716
02:12:56.360 --> 02:12:58.400
Like, make sure it's a good thing to track like that.

2717
02:12:58.640 --> 02:13:01.520
Probably the best leading indicator for like development work is just,

2718
02:13:01.520 --> 02:13:05.920
you know, like, are you getting at least like three hours of like consecutive,

2719
02:13:06.000 --> 02:13:07.880
you know, unblocked, you know, pick a metric, whatever it is.

2720
02:13:07.880 --> 02:13:09.400
Obviously, it could be more way more than that.

2721
02:13:09.400 --> 02:13:11.680
It's like, you know, six hours or like whatever works for you.

2722
02:13:12.000 --> 02:13:15.000
Are you getting those stretches each day and having some metric

2723
02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.680
you can track is really helpful.

2724
02:13:16.680 --> 02:13:18.600
And that's usually where I start with most teams is if there's

2725
02:13:18.960 --> 02:13:21.720
delivery problems and it's not because of the shaping or

2726
02:13:22.600 --> 02:13:25.120
anything happening within like the technical side, then a lot of it's like,

2727
02:13:25.120 --> 02:13:28.720
well, are they like blocking their time or actually getting time to do the work

2728
02:13:28.720 --> 02:13:32.600
or maybe where the daily stand up out of the world is awful

2729
02:13:32.600 --> 02:13:34.960
because it's just you're segmenting someone's day.

2730
02:13:35.000 --> 02:13:36.000
It's like, well, I'm not going to start work

2731
02:13:36.000 --> 02:13:40.320
because at this 15 minute window at 11, we're going to come together

2732
02:13:40.320 --> 02:13:43.560
and talk about problems when they should already have been surfaced yesterday.

2733
02:13:43.960 --> 02:13:45.320
And you can work through those.

2734
02:13:45.320 --> 02:13:46.880
So just, you know, you got to find a balance,

2735
02:13:46.880 --> 02:13:48.800
especially like with remote, with async.

2736
02:13:48.800 --> 02:13:50.800
You can definitely find that right bright spot there.

2737
02:13:52.760 --> 02:13:54.640
OK, so then what about like a

2738
02:13:56.440 --> 02:13:58.680
bedding table is kind of.

2739
02:13:59.000 --> 02:14:02.840
An interesting language, but how does that come to life,

2740
02:14:02.840 --> 02:14:05.840
I guess, with like with clients and then we're just we're working off of.

2741
02:14:06.880 --> 02:14:10.160
The initial specs and kind of just aligning with them as we go,

2742
02:14:10.160 --> 02:14:12.360
is there anything official happening there where it's like, hey, here

2743
02:14:12.360 --> 02:14:15.240
they're the pitches for this next block of work, right?

2744
02:14:15.240 --> 02:14:16.920
It seems like it's a tighter window with these months,

2745
02:14:16.920 --> 02:14:21.280
so it might not happen that that specifically, but talk me through that.

2746
02:14:23.320 --> 02:14:27.560
It's good, I mean, for I can like Chris talk about the agents,

2747
02:14:27.560 --> 02:14:32.600
but for tribe side, we it's we're kind of a combination of things we want to do.

2748
02:14:32.600 --> 02:14:34.360
It's stuff that clients have sponsored.

2749
02:14:34.360 --> 02:14:37.880
So we're sort of presenting, you know, hey, here's the baseline

2750
02:14:37.880 --> 02:14:39.720
of like general reactive stuff that we're covering.

2751
02:14:39.720 --> 02:14:42.840
And here's some of the things we go into specifics like bugs

2752
02:14:42.840 --> 02:14:45.520
and things that they're needing fixed if they want to see that level.

2753
02:14:45.800 --> 02:14:49.360
And then it's just high level like features that we essentially

2754
02:14:49.880 --> 02:14:52.400
because it is kind of like from our stand, from a business standpoint,

2755
02:14:52.400 --> 02:14:55.960
it's also the sales pitch portion as well, where basically it's

2756
02:14:56.080 --> 02:14:59.920
it's basically getting them to sign up and renew for the next month.

2757
02:15:00.000 --> 02:15:02.920
what they want. And maybe there's better ways to do that.

2758
02:15:03.480 --> 02:15:06.120
But they're essentially like pitching it, we're getting them

2759
02:15:06.120 --> 02:15:09.340
to agree that they understand what they're buying, we go into

2760
02:15:09.340 --> 02:15:13.440
the next month. So that works pretty well, because we've

2761
02:15:13.480 --> 02:15:15.600
really got like one or two clients that are typically

2762
02:15:15.600 --> 02:15:18.880
sponsoring stuff on tribe. And we're just kind of their

2763
02:15:18.880 --> 02:15:21.680
sponsoring features, but we're also the product owners. So

2764
02:15:21.680 --> 02:15:24.360
we're deciding like, if those features should even be

2765
02:15:24.400 --> 02:15:26.720
presented. So we're trying not to give them like, here's a menu

2766
02:15:26.720 --> 02:15:29.520
of 10 things you could do. We're like, we really want to build

2767
02:15:29.520 --> 02:15:33.320
this one thing. Do you want to sponsor it? Or else we end up

2768
02:15:33.320 --> 02:15:35.280
with like, kind of a Frankenstein app. We're like,

2769
02:15:35.280 --> 02:15:37.520
oh, we need Salesforce integration. Now we need this

2770
02:15:37.520 --> 02:15:40.560
thing. And now we've just like built it in 17 directions. So

2771
02:15:40.760 --> 02:15:43.760
we've gotten more, we've been guilty of that in early stages

2772
02:15:43.760 --> 02:15:46.600
where it was like, this client wants it, we throw it in, like

2773
02:15:46.600 --> 02:15:49.480
we just do it. Now. It's a little bit more like, oh, we'll

2774
02:15:49.480 --> 02:15:51.560
take that under consideration and see if that's something we

2775
02:15:51.560 --> 02:15:53.480
want to do. So

2776
02:15:56.200 --> 02:15:59.160
okay, that's helpful. Any nuance on the agency side, Chris, that

2777
02:15:59.160 --> 02:15:59.640
you could add?

2778
02:16:04.920 --> 02:16:08.640
I think it's interesting, at least with one of our clients,

2779
02:16:09.360 --> 02:16:13.160
we usually get more reactive work, but sometimes it'll bubble

2780
02:16:13.160 --> 02:16:15.920
up and say, actually, this isn't reactive. This is a completely

2781
02:16:15.920 --> 02:16:19.160
new, you know, feature request that we need to think about,

2782
02:16:19.200 --> 02:16:22.360
right? And this is way bigger than just, oh, yeah, just make

2783
02:16:22.360 --> 02:16:26.400
these few changes here, this 17 small changes, you know, and

2784
02:16:26.400 --> 02:16:31.040
really, I think it goes back to us needing to be asking the

2785
02:16:31.040 --> 02:16:33.959
five why's, right? Why? Why are we doing it this way? Again,

2786
02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:37.360
you know, this is a departure from what you did before, you

2787
02:16:37.360 --> 02:16:40.559
know, and sometimes we'll get a really good, like a loom video,

2788
02:16:40.600 --> 02:16:42.840
right? And they'll say, Hey, this is why this hasn't been

2789
02:16:42.840 --> 02:16:45.440
working. You know, we tried this, we thought about that we

2790
02:16:45.440 --> 02:16:49.200
asked people in our, you know, in our cohort, and here's what

2791
02:16:49.240 --> 02:16:51.920
they're saying. And here's why we're articulating it this way.

2792
02:16:51.920 --> 02:16:54.719
So that's, that's rare, though, right? Because that's usually

2793
02:16:55.360 --> 02:16:58.400
something that we'll uncover, if we ask the questions, instead

2794
02:16:58.400 --> 02:17:01.920
of getting it to respond today. I don't know if I answered your

2795
02:17:01.920 --> 02:17:04.000
question, though. Did I touch on it?

2796
02:17:04.920 --> 02:17:06.760
Yeah, no, that's helpful. Yeah, I think I'm just trying to get a

2797
02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:09.799
sense for like, this is where this is exactly like we talked

2798
02:17:09.799 --> 02:17:12.040
about where it's, you know, make bets, work in cycles, I don't

2799
02:17:12.040 --> 02:17:14.799
say, you must have a vending table meeting that has, you

2800
02:17:14.799 --> 02:17:17.440
know, because it's, you're operating in similar nuance that

2801
02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:20.600
I am where there's a agency clients, there's SAS kind of

2802
02:17:20.600 --> 02:17:22.920
size, and there's different stakeholders involved. And it

2803
02:17:22.920 --> 02:17:26.000
sounds like it comes in different ways. But you're sort

2804
02:17:26.000 --> 02:17:29.240
of having an internal discussion just on, you know, prioritization

2805
02:17:29.280 --> 02:17:31.080
and what work should occur.

2806
02:17:31.080 --> 02:17:34.120
We are. And I think one thing I identified is I certainly need

2807
02:17:34.120 --> 02:17:38.680
to be having more regularly recurring meetings with our

2808
02:17:38.680 --> 02:17:41.360
clients to kind of not just get them up to speed, because I'm

2809
02:17:41.360 --> 02:17:43.480
talking with them directly, they know, I'm, you know, in there,

2810
02:17:43.480 --> 02:17:46.959
but, you know, kind of setting that cadence of, hey, so in this

2811
02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:48.920
meeting, here's what we're gonna get out of it. Here's what we're

2812
02:17:48.920 --> 02:17:51.080
gonna talk about. Here's the priorities, because what we've

2813
02:17:51.080 --> 02:17:53.840
been doing, at least what I've been doing, is been kind of

2814
02:17:53.840 --> 02:17:56.559
dropping into huddles, right in Slack and setting up in

2815
02:17:56.600 --> 02:18:00.240
impromptu sort of meetings to kind of put out fires and get

2816
02:18:00.240 --> 02:18:02.600
clarification, which is necessary sometimes. But I think

2817
02:18:02.760 --> 02:18:06.160
having that cadence will help us, you know, continue in the

2818
02:18:06.160 --> 02:18:08.719
future, have that expectation of, okay, here's that regular

2819
02:18:08.719 --> 02:18:11.320
rhythm, going forward on some of these things to answer the

2820
02:18:11.320 --> 02:18:14.080
questions, get the feedback. And, you know, of course, they

2821
02:18:14.080 --> 02:18:18.520
might give me something in a live meeting that they omitted

2822
02:18:18.520 --> 02:18:20.879
in an asynchronous meeting, because they were just focused

2823
02:18:20.920 --> 02:18:22.320
on getting a message out, you know?

2824
02:18:23.520 --> 02:18:26.160
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think the reason I touch on the rhythms

2825
02:18:26.160 --> 02:18:28.440
thing, I think they're so important, is because they can't

2826
02:18:28.480 --> 02:18:31.400
they become a forcing mechanism, because especially if you set

2827
02:18:31.400 --> 02:18:33.959
them as recurring, and I always tell teams to do that to them,

2828
02:18:33.959 --> 02:18:36.360
like just if it doesn't matter what the cadence is, just it's

2829
02:18:36.360 --> 02:18:39.480
set at recurring. And for us, if we're doing these like eight

2830
02:18:39.480 --> 02:18:42.920
week total cycles, it's like, well, just have at least some

2831
02:18:43.160 --> 02:18:46.680
hour, hour and a half session with clients. So like, I just do

2832
02:18:46.680 --> 02:18:49.120
a generic, I call it like product strategy workshop, like

2833
02:18:49.120 --> 02:18:51.120
because then you can just that can be whatever. So I kind of

2834
02:18:51.120 --> 02:18:53.520
just have a bucket that I'll typically do, it's like, hey,

2835
02:18:53.520 --> 02:18:55.879
let's come together. And I can kind of move them into different

2836
02:18:55.879 --> 02:18:57.440
spaces, like, all right, we're kind of pulling out more

2837
02:18:57.440 --> 02:19:00.680
problems. And for us from the client side, a lot of it is, I

2838
02:19:00.680 --> 02:19:03.920
need to, once once we know what we've gotten to the point where

2839
02:19:03.920 --> 02:19:05.639
we know what to build, and we're kind of an iterative product

2840
02:19:05.639 --> 02:19:09.879
development, we, I want to try and surface, like potential

2841
02:19:09.879 --> 02:19:12.440
opportunities, like what should we build? What do I what should

2842
02:19:12.440 --> 02:19:14.719
I start kind of framing and shaping up? So I have to like

2843
02:19:14.719 --> 02:19:16.719
surface that from these meetings. So that's kind of one

2844
02:19:16.719 --> 02:19:19.440
thing I'll call out. It's like, I call it a product strategy

2845
02:19:19.440 --> 02:19:19.959
workshop.

2846
02:19:20.520 --> 02:19:23.520
And one thing is, like, Chris, I know that you're doing in the

2847
02:19:23.520 --> 02:19:28.639
extra example is, we, we do have like a, there's a place in

2848
02:19:28.639 --> 02:19:32.080
notion that has like, basically all the projects sitting there,

2849
02:19:32.320 --> 02:19:35.760
and kind of a rough idea of when we need to do what. So we are

2850
02:19:35.760 --> 02:19:39.280
trying to like not also overwhelm the client with like a

2851
02:19:39.280 --> 02:19:42.040
bunch of options, because we're trying to, we're trying to like

2852
02:19:42.040 --> 02:19:45.760
basically do the work for them, and then just get them to give

2853
02:19:45.760 --> 02:19:48.920
us a thumbs up, unless they were like way off base, but kind

2854
02:19:48.920 --> 02:19:53.360
of, hey, if we were picking the next project, for like x tech,

2855
02:19:53.360 --> 02:19:55.640
for example, like, here's the here's the next project we would

2856
02:19:55.640 --> 02:19:58.600
like to work on. And then here it is shaped and all that. So I

2857
02:19:58.600 --> 02:19:59.040
think

2858
02:20:00.000 --> 02:20:02.000
Because I think that's kind of where Chris, you,

2859
02:20:02.000 --> 02:20:06.240
and Janata are working to shape that stuff ahead of time.

2860
02:20:06.240 --> 02:20:10.000
I think getting it to this level of presentation ready,

2861
02:20:10.000 --> 02:20:13.080
and then presenting to them in a Loom video or something

2862
02:20:13.080 --> 02:20:13.800
would be great.

2863
02:20:13.800 --> 02:20:16.920
But then there's, I think, these strategy workshops are great,

2864
02:20:16.920 --> 02:20:21.080
even internally, or with the client, whichever one.

2865
02:20:21.080 --> 02:20:22.920
Depends on the client and how involved.

2866
02:20:22.920 --> 02:20:24.720
I just know some clients, the less

2867
02:20:24.720 --> 02:20:28.720
they have to talk to us, the better, as long as it gets done.

2868
02:20:28.720 --> 02:20:30.840
So, yeah.

2869
02:20:30.840 --> 02:20:32.760
Yeah, I mean, even like, you know,

2870
02:20:32.760 --> 02:20:34.680
I just, let me draw this real quick.

2871
02:20:34.680 --> 02:20:38.320
Like, if you had something where you had,

2872
02:20:38.320 --> 02:20:41.360
like, if you're operating on those, like, four-week cadence,

2873
02:20:41.360 --> 02:20:43.160
like, that's a good way to just look at it,

2874
02:20:43.160 --> 02:20:45.640
is if you try and, you want to see,

2875
02:20:45.640 --> 02:20:47.100
you know, we have these four weeks,

2876
02:20:47.100 --> 02:20:48.560
like, how would you actually do it?

2877
02:20:48.560 --> 02:20:51.000
Like, this was, you know, so this is like a cool-down.

2878
02:20:51.000 --> 02:20:53.320
These are like a, you know, build weeks or something.

2879
02:20:53.320 --> 02:20:55.240
Like, if you zoom out, like, look at it this perspective,

2880
02:20:55.240 --> 02:20:57.000
it's like, what's the rhythm that's happening here?

2881
02:20:57.000 --> 02:20:58.240
It's like, that's why I was calling rhythms,

2882
02:20:58.240 --> 02:20:59.520
because of the gift fair, like, what's the team,

2883
02:20:59.520 --> 02:21:00.720
the checkpoints that we're going to hit

2884
02:21:00.720 --> 02:21:02.920
so that we can surface, and it helps a lot.

2885
02:21:02.920 --> 02:21:05.160
So, like, shaping sessions are another one,

2886
02:21:05.160 --> 02:21:07.280
or framing, product strategy workshops

2887
02:21:07.280 --> 02:21:08.480
sort of a good catch-all for, like,

2888
02:21:08.480 --> 02:21:09.680
bringing a large group of people together

2889
02:21:09.680 --> 02:21:11.480
to talk more holistically about the product

2890
02:21:11.480 --> 02:21:12.800
and whatever you need to.

2891
02:21:12.800 --> 02:21:14.640
You can also, I just do, like, strategy sessions,

2892
02:21:14.640 --> 02:21:17.720
could be a shaping session, a framing session, whatever.

2893
02:21:17.720 --> 02:21:19.160
That's another good one, too, where it's like,

2894
02:21:19.160 --> 02:21:20.320
if you want to get into a better rhythm,

2895
02:21:20.320 --> 02:21:23.080
where it's like, shaping happens at a certain spot,

2896
02:21:23.080 --> 02:21:24.480
it forces, you're basically, like,

2897
02:21:24.480 --> 02:21:25.880
time-blocking as a team,

2898
02:21:25.880 --> 02:21:26.840
is kind of the way I think about it.

2899
02:21:26.840 --> 02:21:28.120
Like, if you time-block your own schedule,

2900
02:21:28.120 --> 02:21:30.040
it's like, I'm going to do this for these two hours, this.

2901
02:21:30.040 --> 02:21:33.080
I'm just like, oh, the first week of every cycle

2902
02:21:33.080 --> 02:21:34.760
in this kind of monthly cadence,

2903
02:21:34.760 --> 02:21:37.920
there is a hour and a half shaping session on X,

2904
02:21:37.920 --> 02:21:40.160
and that's just, like, blocked out.

2905
02:21:40.160 --> 02:21:41.520
Because I will say, like, those,

2906
02:21:41.520 --> 02:21:42.880
it creates a forcing mechanism, then,

2907
02:21:42.880 --> 02:21:44.640
because you know, and it'll kind of keep you accountable

2908
02:21:44.640 --> 02:21:45.480
on those rhythms.

2909
02:21:45.480 --> 02:21:47.720
Otherwise, like, the fluidity can work,

2910
02:21:47.720 --> 02:21:49.600
but you guys have a lot of competing stuff,

2911
02:21:49.600 --> 02:21:50.760
so it might end up starting,

2912
02:21:50.760 --> 02:21:52.000
things can get lost in the shuffle.

2913
02:21:52.000 --> 02:21:52.840
So just calling out, like,

2914
02:21:52.840 --> 02:21:54.880
that could be a good exercise to go through.

2915
02:21:54.880 --> 02:21:56.600
I'm happy to, you know, we could go into that

2916
02:21:56.600 --> 02:21:58.920
a little bit more deeply if it was worthwhile,

2917
02:21:58.920 --> 02:22:01.800
but, like, what sort of things, like, would happen here?

2918
02:22:01.800 --> 02:22:03.560
And I can try and dig up,

2919
02:22:03.560 --> 02:22:05.920
I know I have this, like, for ours to show you as an example,

2920
02:22:05.920 --> 02:22:07.280
because we have certain things that happen

2921
02:22:07.280 --> 02:22:08.720
in those two-week cool-down periods,

2922
02:22:08.720 --> 02:22:11.080
and then it's, like, by the first two weeks,

2923
02:22:11.080 --> 02:22:12.520
it's more of, like, the discovery stage,

2924
02:22:12.520 --> 02:22:14.440
and then the next two weeks of the cycle,

2925
02:22:14.440 --> 02:22:17.040
the product leads are doing more shaping work,

2926
02:22:17.040 --> 02:22:18.200
and then it's, like, the following two weeks

2927
02:22:18.200 --> 02:22:19.240
are kind of piecing things together

2928
02:22:19.240 --> 02:22:20.360
and getting final approval

2929
02:22:20.360 --> 02:22:21.960
and moving into bedding tables.

2930
02:22:21.960 --> 02:22:24.120
So, like, everyone has their rhythms.

2931
02:22:24.120 --> 02:22:25.080
You just have to figure out, like,

2932
02:22:25.080 --> 02:22:26.560
what that can look like.

2933
02:22:26.560 --> 02:22:28.640
So I'll try and, while we're talking,

2934
02:22:28.640 --> 02:22:29.480
I'll try and dig it up if I can.

2935
02:22:29.480 --> 02:22:31.600
Yeah, I think to kind of make it real, like, yeah,

2936
02:22:31.600 --> 02:22:35.680
if you can show us this kind of four-week cycle structure

2937
02:22:35.680 --> 02:22:37.680
would be super helpful.

2938
02:22:37.680 --> 02:22:39.400
And also kind of consider, like,

2939
02:22:39.400 --> 02:22:41.840
hey, if we use this as, like, a workshop to, like,

2940
02:22:41.840 --> 02:22:45.840
hey, what should January look like here?

2941
02:22:45.840 --> 02:22:47.600
And we obviously got stuff running in December,

2942
02:22:47.600 --> 02:22:50.200
but, like, hey, let's, whatever we come up with here,

2943
02:22:50.200 --> 02:22:52.800
let's, like, experiment with it in January

2944
02:22:53.640 --> 02:22:54.640
and kind of keep that in mind

2945
02:22:54.640 --> 02:22:56.720
as we shape and prep for January.

2946
02:22:56.720 --> 02:22:57.920
I think that'd be great.

2947
02:22:58.920 --> 02:23:00.640
And I don't know, this is old,

2948
02:23:00.640 --> 02:23:02.920
so this isn't super accurate,

2949
02:23:02.920 --> 02:23:04.200
but this would be an example of, like,

2950
02:23:04.200 --> 02:23:07.320
we have a lot of things in our process that have to hit.

2951
02:23:07.320 --> 02:23:09.840
So, like, this will be more than what you would need,

2952
02:23:09.840 --> 02:23:11.400
but just to call it out, and actually this one,

2953
02:23:11.400 --> 02:23:14.320
I think I might actually change this to, like, product demos.

2954
02:23:14.320 --> 02:23:15.240
But the idea was, like, okay,

2955
02:23:15.240 --> 02:23:16.800
in this total eight weeks,

2956
02:23:16.800 --> 02:23:18.080
like, what are the things that are happening?

2957
02:23:18.080 --> 02:23:19.880
Like, in week one, we do, like, performance pulses.

2958
02:23:19.880 --> 02:23:21.280
So these are just more of, like, reviews,

2959
02:23:21.280 --> 02:23:23.480
like, feedback reviews for team members

2960
02:23:23.480 --> 02:23:24.720
from the previous cycle of work.

2961
02:23:24.720 --> 02:23:26.720
So, like, the product leads are doing this.

2962
02:23:26.720 --> 02:23:28.680
And, like, some nuance for our team is, like,

2963
02:23:28.680 --> 02:23:30.280
our product leads are senior engineers,

2964
02:23:30.280 --> 02:23:31.680
so I don't really have any typical.

2965
02:23:31.680 --> 02:23:33.240
I have one project manager currently.

2966
02:23:33.240 --> 02:23:34.760
I'm training her up to be a product manager,

2967
02:23:34.760 --> 02:23:38.120
but in general, they're all senior engineers.

2968
02:23:38.120 --> 02:23:39.840
Week two, they're kind of putting together product demos

2969
02:23:39.840 --> 02:23:40.840
of the previous cycle.

2970
02:23:40.840 --> 02:23:42.360
So for us, these are helpful,

2971
02:23:42.360 --> 02:23:43.200
because, like, internally,

2972
02:23:43.200 --> 02:23:44.280
we want to see what everybody's working on,

2973
02:23:44.280 --> 02:23:45.560
because you kind of get siloed a little bit.

2974
02:23:45.560 --> 02:23:47.280
It's like, I'm a huge fan of demos.

2975
02:23:47.280 --> 02:23:49.520
It's, like, just demos are the ultimate.

2976
02:23:49.800 --> 02:23:51.520
Getting to working software as fast as you can,

2977
02:23:51.520 --> 02:23:53.720
like, demoing it forces you to get there,

2978
02:23:53.720 --> 02:23:55.440
and having those are really helpful.

2979
02:23:55.440 --> 02:23:56.560
We can share them with stakeholders.

2980
02:23:56.560 --> 02:23:58.160
Here's what we shipped in the last cycle.

2981
02:23:58.160 --> 02:23:59.320
You know, the whole team can kind of see

2982
02:23:59.320 --> 02:24:00.960
what everybody's building.

2983
02:24:00.960 --> 02:24:03.840
I bring together, like, all of the product leads

2984
02:24:03.840 --> 02:24:05.480
across all of our teams on the SaaS side,

2985
02:24:05.480 --> 02:24:08.120
and I try just to collect what went well,

2986
02:24:08.120 --> 02:24:10.200
what didn't, some things that experiments I can run,

2987
02:24:10.200 --> 02:24:11.960
and kind of get a good bird's eye view

2988
02:24:11.960 --> 02:24:14.280
of, like, how the process is being expressed

2989
02:24:14.280 --> 02:24:17.200
across the team and, like, where there are gaps.

2990
02:24:17.200 --> 02:24:20.160
Then, really getting into, like, shaping work.

2991
02:24:20.160 --> 02:24:22.720
Ideally, you have some time blocked off for shaping work.

2992
02:24:22.720 --> 02:24:25.200
Then you have time for some sort of retro,

2993
02:24:25.200 --> 02:24:26.680
some sort of bedding table.

2994
02:24:26.680 --> 02:24:28.800
This PTHM is, like, the product team health metrics,

2995
02:24:28.800 --> 02:24:30.960
so I track metrics on each of the teams.

2996
02:24:30.960 --> 02:24:32.560
So I have to, like, collect that, get the data,

2997
02:24:32.560 --> 02:24:34.320
like, how did the features deliver?

2998
02:24:34.320 --> 02:24:36.200
Did we follow the process?

2999
02:24:36.200 --> 02:24:37.600
Team collaboration feedback,

3000
02:24:37.600 --> 02:24:39.440
so some more, like, metrics-based stuff,

3001
02:24:39.440 --> 02:24:41.760
and that's what I've started doing this year.

3002
02:24:41.760 --> 02:24:43.280
Towards the end of last year, just to get a better sense

3003
02:24:43.280 --> 02:24:45.760
for, like, how the teams are performing.

3004
02:24:45.760 --> 02:24:47.320
And again, so we didn't start from this place.

3005
02:24:47.320 --> 02:24:48.480
We got there eventually.

3006
02:24:48.480 --> 02:24:50.080
I've kind of streamlined this down to, like,

3007
02:24:50.080 --> 02:24:51.120
I just call it the cycle doc.

3008
02:24:51.120 --> 02:24:52.840
So it's, like, the things we're going to build,

3009
02:24:52.840 --> 02:24:54.680
how they went, because we like to see,

3010
02:24:54.680 --> 02:24:55.840
in the product team health metrics, like,

3011
02:24:55.840 --> 02:24:58.160
did we actually deliver that work on time?

3012
02:24:58.160 --> 02:25:00.400
Was there a big scope changes to get it there?

3013
02:25:00.000 --> 02:25:01.680
or did we not plan the plan on time?

3014
02:25:01.680 --> 02:25:03.080
Like just getting some sense for that

3015
02:25:03.080 --> 02:25:03.920
and then that kickoff.

3016
02:25:03.920 --> 02:25:05.400
So you could combine, you know,

3017
02:25:05.400 --> 02:25:06.420
these and whatever you want.

3018
02:25:06.420 --> 02:25:08.320
But this was sort of an example

3019
02:25:08.320 --> 02:25:09.720
of what I think I had previously.

3020
02:25:09.720 --> 02:25:11.320
So let me bring this.

3021
02:25:11.320 --> 02:25:15.880
And then the four, the six weeks there in gray,

3022
02:25:15.880 --> 02:25:17.520
like, cause to me that's like a cool,

3023
02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:18.920
that's what like Drew's working on,

3024
02:25:18.920 --> 02:25:20.560
but it was like, what's the rest of the team doing

3025
02:25:20.560 --> 02:25:21.760
in weeks four to six?

3026
02:25:21.760 --> 02:25:23.920
Like, are they still working?

3027
02:25:23.920 --> 02:25:24.760
Yeah.

3028
02:25:24.760 --> 02:25:26.200
So this, this one was more driven.

3029
02:25:26.200 --> 02:25:27.480
I think I was doing this specifically

3030
02:25:27.480 --> 02:25:28.320
for the product leads

3031
02:25:28.320 --> 02:25:31.200
where they were having to cover more things.

3032
02:25:31.200 --> 02:25:33.880
So like, there would probably be a version of this

3033
02:25:33.880 --> 02:25:35.480
that would look, you know,

3034
02:25:35.480 --> 02:25:36.760
they wouldn't have to do.

3035
02:25:36.760 --> 02:25:39.200
So like, if you're building the product,

3036
02:25:39.200 --> 02:25:41.680
like your, it's really your schedule essentially,

3037
02:25:41.680 --> 02:25:44.160
or whoever's leading the product,

3038
02:25:44.160 --> 02:25:46.240
not like the whole team.

3039
02:25:46.240 --> 02:25:47.080
Yeah.

3040
02:25:47.080 --> 02:25:48.200
So this looks crazy.

3041
02:25:48.200 --> 02:25:49.400
So it's like, hey, there's so much stuff.

3042
02:25:49.400 --> 02:25:51.160
But for developers, I tell them like,

3043
02:25:51.160 --> 02:25:52.620
I'm not bringing you into much.

3044
02:25:52.620 --> 02:25:53.820
They're basically gonna,

3045
02:25:53.820 --> 02:25:55.200
it'll look more like this for them.

3046
02:25:55.200 --> 02:25:56.040
They're kind of in building.

3047
02:25:56.040 --> 02:25:57.360
So one thing you could do,

3048
02:25:57.360 --> 02:25:59.680
which I've seen teams have success with is like,

3049
02:25:59.680 --> 02:26:00.760
kind of expectations around,

3050
02:26:00.760 --> 02:26:02.040
if you're working on a four-week timeline,

3051
02:26:02.040 --> 02:26:03.320
you'll have a pretty good sense,

3052
02:26:03.320 --> 02:26:04.840
or say three-week feature timeline,

3053
02:26:04.840 --> 02:26:06.040
you'll have a pretty good sense for like,

3054
02:26:06.040 --> 02:26:07.720
by the end of that first week, where should we be?

3055
02:26:07.720 --> 02:26:08.640
By the end of the second week.

3056
02:26:08.640 --> 02:26:10.720
So you can create checkpoints if you want.

3057
02:26:10.720 --> 02:26:13.520
So you guys could do like, okay, here's where we're,

3058
02:26:13.520 --> 02:26:16.240
you know, there's a shaping session that happens here.

3059
02:26:16.240 --> 02:26:18.360
If we want to, we know the review, you know,

3060
02:26:18.360 --> 02:26:20.120
this is, I'm showing the wrong example,

3061
02:26:20.120 --> 02:26:21.840
but yeah, there's different versions of this.

3062
02:26:21.840 --> 02:26:22.800
Cause you should consider like,

3063
02:26:22.800 --> 02:26:23.920
what are they like for developer?

3064
02:26:23.920 --> 02:26:25.960
Like, what are they, what are their rhythms?

3065
02:26:25.960 --> 02:26:26.800
What is the team?

3066
02:26:26.800 --> 02:26:28.080
Like the shaping level rhythms

3067
02:26:28.080 --> 02:26:29.440
that have to happen on top of that

3068
02:26:29.440 --> 02:26:32.320
could be an interesting thing to think about at least.

3069
02:26:33.600 --> 02:26:34.640
And I don't know if that's helpful.

3070
02:26:34.640 --> 02:26:37.400
I see some potential benefits to like,

3071
02:26:37.400 --> 02:26:39.520
going to that place, if it's helpful.

3072
02:26:39.520 --> 02:26:40.920
This is what you guys are currently doing

3073
02:26:40.920 --> 02:26:44.160
in the eight weeks in, for the agency?

3074
02:26:44.160 --> 02:26:45.000
Yeah.

3075
02:26:45.000 --> 02:26:46.560
We're currently doing it this way.

3076
02:26:46.560 --> 02:26:47.400
Okay.

3077
02:26:47.400 --> 02:26:48.600
I have a lot of questions,

3078
02:26:48.600 --> 02:26:50.640
but more on the business side of like,

3079
02:26:50.640 --> 02:26:51.560
yeah, that would work.

3080
02:26:51.560 --> 02:26:54.920
But the only one that's kind of getting off into the weeds,

3081
02:26:55.320 --> 02:26:56.680
and we still build monthly.

3082
02:26:56.680 --> 02:26:58.000
And so we do it a little different.

3083
02:26:58.000 --> 02:26:59.400
I mean, we're building off of like,

3084
02:26:59.400 --> 02:27:02.200
like we don't do our, like we don't bill hourly.

3085
02:27:02.200 --> 02:27:04.720
So we'll just bill off of like a bucket of hours,

3086
02:27:04.720 --> 02:27:06.320
essentially on it.

3087
02:27:06.320 --> 02:27:09.520
But we still bill monthly and operate off of this cadence.

3088
02:27:09.520 --> 02:27:11.920
So we're still just building them at the same increments,

3089
02:27:11.920 --> 02:27:14.760
but our cadence is kind of off of that.

3090
02:27:14.760 --> 02:27:15.920
Okay. Gotcha.

3091
02:27:17.760 --> 02:27:18.600
That's good.

3092
02:27:18.600 --> 02:27:19.440
Yeah. Cause that,

3093
02:27:19.440 --> 02:27:22.400
cause that is hard to explain to a client, the like,

3094
02:27:22.400 --> 02:27:24.080
oh, so we're only going to work half,

3095
02:27:24.080 --> 02:27:25.640
half of a month this month,

3096
02:27:25.640 --> 02:27:28.640
but you still owe us a whole month, right?

3097
02:27:28.640 --> 02:27:29.480
Yeah.

3098
02:27:29.480 --> 02:27:30.880
But, you know,

3099
02:27:30.880 --> 02:27:33.520
it makes sense if they're getting value for that

3100
02:27:33.520 --> 02:27:34.800
and we're cleaning things up,

3101
02:27:34.800 --> 02:27:36.680
cause there is just going to be, you know,

3102
02:27:36.680 --> 02:27:38.200
all projects start out beautifully.

3103
02:27:38.200 --> 02:27:39.880
The Extech one that Chris,

3104
02:27:39.880 --> 02:27:42.280
like we're only on month two or three, I think of that.

3105
02:27:42.280 --> 02:27:45.200
So like, there's just not a lot of reactive stuff

3106
02:27:45.200 --> 02:27:46.480
because there's not actually even any,

3107
02:27:46.480 --> 02:27:48.960
any real users in the app besides the client,

3108
02:27:48.960 --> 02:27:50.600
just kicking it around.

3109
02:27:50.600 --> 02:27:54.000
So as soon as like you add users and, you know,

3110
02:27:54.000 --> 02:27:56.400
stuff and bugs and all that stuff, it does,

3111
02:27:56.400 --> 02:27:57.760
the reactive does build up.

3112
02:27:59.720 --> 02:28:02.000
So do you, is that how you kind of present it to clients?

3113
02:28:02.000 --> 02:28:02.960
Is that, hey, this is,

3114
02:28:02.960 --> 02:28:07.200
this is where we solve like reactive or bug type things.

3115
02:28:09.480 --> 02:28:10.960
The, I mean, yes.

3116
02:28:10.960 --> 02:28:13.920
Or at least with the cool down period, like here with them.

3117
02:28:14.840 --> 02:28:15.800
Yeah. I've shifted.

3118
02:28:15.800 --> 02:28:16.960
I think that's where like the cool down language

3119
02:28:16.960 --> 02:28:19.160
is a little bit tricky to sell on,

3120
02:28:19.160 --> 02:28:20.120
even though it's really important.

3121
02:28:20.640 --> 02:28:22.120
Like most of our team, we call it like the ramp up

3122
02:28:22.120 --> 02:28:23.760
because we feel like we're not really cooling down

3123
02:28:23.760 --> 02:28:25.440
as much as we're like doing a ton of work

3124
02:28:25.440 --> 02:28:27.360
to prep for the next thing.

3125
02:28:27.360 --> 02:28:29.320
So the way I usually frame it to them is

3126
02:28:29.320 --> 02:28:30.960
I kind of got away from the cool down language

3127
02:28:30.960 --> 02:28:33.440
because it is, there's too much nuance to explain there.

3128
02:28:33.440 --> 02:28:35.800
It's kind of like saying developer experience to clients

3129
02:28:35.800 --> 02:28:37.800
and having to really explain that to them

3130
02:28:37.800 --> 02:28:39.480
so that they understand the benefits of it

3131
02:28:39.480 --> 02:28:42.480
from a business perspective, not just appeasing developers.

3132
02:28:42.480 --> 02:28:46.120
So this, I usually just say it's an eight week cycle

3133
02:28:46.120 --> 02:28:47.720
is typically what they're, they're operating on.

3134
02:28:47.720 --> 02:28:49.920
That includes we're working against features

3135
02:28:50.680 --> 02:28:51.520
to deliver value.

3136
02:28:51.520 --> 02:28:53.960
And we're doing fixes and improvements work on that.

3137
02:28:53.960 --> 02:28:56.200
Cause the worst projects I've had experience with

3138
02:28:56.200 --> 02:28:58.320
are ones like I did it early on,

3139
02:28:58.320 --> 02:29:00.400
where it's like, let's just do back-to-back cycles.

3140
02:29:00.400 --> 02:29:01.760
There's no cool down.

3141
02:29:01.760 --> 02:29:03.160
It just, it gets really hard.

3142
02:29:03.160 --> 02:29:04.640
Like you hit a, you hit a threshold

3143
02:29:04.640 --> 02:29:05.800
where like there's just a bunch of,

3144
02:29:05.800 --> 02:29:08.680
there's so much instability in the product.

3145
02:29:08.680 --> 02:29:10.360
Like you just start getting a lot of bugs.

3146
02:29:10.360 --> 02:29:12.600
You just have to build in some mechanism,

3147
02:29:12.600 --> 02:29:13.880
find the unit that works for you,

3148
02:29:13.880 --> 02:29:15.960
but just communicating at that level.

3149
02:29:15.960 --> 02:29:18.560
I think you still can do the four weeks.

3150
02:29:18.560 --> 02:29:20.280
I mean, you could think about like the eight week thing

3151
02:29:20.280 --> 02:29:21.120
kind of works too.

3152
02:29:21.120 --> 02:29:22.400
Cause it's like, if you can line it up, right.

3153
02:29:22.400 --> 02:29:24.280
I mean, you can do it on the months,

3154
02:29:24.280 --> 02:29:25.560
but I guess we're not, I mean, Bruce,

3155
02:29:25.560 --> 02:29:27.000
we could always dig into that later.

3156
02:29:27.000 --> 02:29:29.640
Cause I feel like I'm not, my brain doesn't map to,

3157
02:29:29.640 --> 02:29:31.240
like if they don't, we don't, we don't,

3158
02:29:31.240 --> 02:29:33.040
those two things don't sit together, I guess,

3159
02:29:33.040 --> 02:29:33.880
the way we think about it.

3160
02:29:33.880 --> 02:29:36.480
Like we set our cycle cadence, but it's off the months.

3161
02:29:36.480 --> 02:29:39.640
It's like not on those months, but we still just bill,

3162
02:29:39.640 --> 02:29:41.400
like they pay for, so like,

3163
02:29:41.400 --> 02:29:43.840
I guess if we're getting into the nuts and bolts of it,

3164
02:29:43.840 --> 02:29:45.600
like we call it like a DTU

3165
02:29:45.600 --> 02:29:47.280
and that's like a differential team unit

3166
02:29:47.280 --> 02:29:48.920
is like a full-time developer.

3167
02:29:48.920 --> 02:29:51.600
So like this product I was showing you some examples of,

3168
02:29:51.600 --> 02:29:53.840
it's a 2.33 DTU team.

3169
02:29:53.840 --> 02:29:55.680
So that's two full-time developers

3170
02:29:55.680 --> 02:29:58.480
and then like overhead of like product strategy leadership.

3171
02:29:58.480 --> 02:29:59.360
That's what I'm doing.

3172
02:29:59.360 --> 02:30:00.360
So I'm that point.

3173
02:30:00.000 --> 02:30:04.720
So they just get billed this rate every month for the duration of that project, and then

3174
02:30:04.720 --> 02:30:07.120
I just slice up the project into whatever.

3175
02:30:07.120 --> 02:30:11.360
So the work doesn't deliver within those like month units, it might be across two months,

3176
02:30:11.360 --> 02:30:14.360
they just kind of shifts separating the payment.

3177
02:30:14.360 --> 02:30:20.440
And we've just made it super, like, this is the project, you pay for it, and we do the

3178
02:30:20.440 --> 02:30:22.600
next project, you pay for that next one.

3179
02:30:22.600 --> 02:30:28.080
So that could be, we could probably experiment with that, I'd be curious, but we do the same

3180
02:30:28.080 --> 02:30:31.800
thing, we just build by like, the week, so like a two week project has a price, four

3181
02:30:31.800 --> 02:30:35.440
week project has a price, so forth.

3182
02:30:35.440 --> 02:30:40.640
So and also, like, yeah, there are more, it's not a one to one ratio of one developer to

3183
02:30:40.640 --> 02:30:45.200
one week, it's like, there's sometimes there's two developers or a designer or someone as

3184
02:30:45.200 --> 02:30:46.200
well.

3185
02:30:46.200 --> 02:30:51.080
So okay, okay, well, let's Yeah, that's good.

3186
02:30:51.080 --> 02:30:58.560
So we, I'd be curious, whatever, like, Chris or Lucien, specifically, like, anyone really,

3187
02:30:58.560 --> 02:31:05.480
if you have a opinion on the each between these two, like the eight, or the four week

3188
02:31:05.480 --> 02:31:29.040
I first I I mean, from the tribe side, like, I feel like our, our artists are our biggest,

3189
02:31:29.040 --> 02:31:38.480
like, lock right now is getting work delivered on the time that we set.

3190
02:31:38.480 --> 02:31:40.120
I don't have a good solve for that.

3191
02:31:40.120 --> 02:31:47.640
But I know that's something that we've consistently, like struggled with.

3192
02:31:47.640 --> 02:31:57.280
And I mean, even like looking at like a three, one cadence gives me some pauses, I'm like,

3193
02:31:57.640 --> 02:32:00.240
we're already struggling to deliver on time.

3194
02:32:00.240 --> 02:32:01.240
Are we going to continue?

3195
02:32:01.240 --> 02:32:03.240
Like, are we just gonna make that worse?

3196
02:32:03.240 --> 02:32:11.880
Yeah, I guess it depends on our like, average project size, like, I think just because we're

3197
02:32:11.880 --> 02:32:16.400
stuck in like one and two week projects, it makes sense, like, oh, you did a one week

3198
02:32:16.400 --> 02:32:22.800
and a two week, and then it's the end of the month, then go into reactive, but it like

3199
02:32:22.800 --> 02:32:26.440
I know on x tech, it's they're sitting at four weeks, right?

3200
02:32:26.600 --> 02:32:31.120
So yeah, we could we could experiment with it.

3201
02:32:36.400 --> 02:32:37.400
Yeah, that's interesting.

3202
02:32:37.400 --> 02:32:38.400
Okay.

3203
02:32:38.400 --> 02:32:39.400
And I think this is worth spending time on.

3204
02:32:39.400 --> 02:32:42.800
Because I do feel like if you if you have a good consistent cadence, and then you can

3205
02:32:42.800 --> 02:32:47.040
figure out the rhythms that you can fit within that, that would help the team, again, that

3206
02:32:47.040 --> 02:32:50.200
you're all kind of in sync, then if there's specific rhythms here, and this has helped

3207
02:32:50.200 --> 02:32:53.480
me when it's like, all right, every in this, this was a struggle, like, all right, how

3208
02:32:53.480 --> 02:32:57.960
should, especially with eight weeks, like, how should you be thinking about this work?

3209
02:32:57.960 --> 02:33:02.920
If you're leading, and you're doing more shaping work, if you're building, like, where should

3210
02:33:02.920 --> 02:33:05.920
you be spending your time and these little, like, it's like kind of internal milestones

3211
02:33:05.920 --> 02:33:06.920
for yourself.

3212
02:33:06.920 --> 02:33:09.360
And if this is true, that's like, well, Chris, you know, I'm going to schedule a product

3213
02:33:09.360 --> 02:33:12.280
strategy workshop for like, this is part of your onboarding with a customer, it's like,

3214
02:33:12.280 --> 02:33:16.320
I'm going to schedule this, and we do it week one here, which is great, because then I like

3215
02:33:16.320 --> 02:33:19.520
these two, then it forces like, well, here are the input mechanisms for clients, it's

3216
02:33:19.520 --> 02:33:22.480
like, you're going to come together in this meeting, we're going to go do some stuff,

3217
02:33:22.480 --> 02:33:25.200
you're going to get feedback, and then you have a rhythm with that.

3218
02:33:25.200 --> 02:33:29.440
So yeah, I mean, there's another way to think it's like, almost like, you know, if you get

3219
02:33:29.440 --> 02:33:34.400
into the four week thing, it's like a there, you know, month one, it's like, well, we were

3220
02:33:34.400 --> 02:33:38.040
maybe not finishing the work, but then there's, because you could, that's the way I've typically

3221
02:33:38.040 --> 02:33:41.880
thought about it, that lines up with months, because if you get into the full eight weeks,

3222
02:33:41.880 --> 02:33:46.960
then you really get into there's six weeks of features, and then the two week cool down

3223
02:33:46.960 --> 02:33:49.720
period gets you like a clean, you know, two month.

3224
02:33:49.720 --> 02:33:52.360
So like, the dyno doubles what you're currently looking at.

3225
02:33:52.360 --> 02:33:55.840
But is there a way to reconcile the billing stuff with that, potentially?

3226
02:33:55.840 --> 02:34:01.040
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I will figure out the business side of it, if it frees everybody up.

3227
02:34:01.040 --> 02:34:03.880
So I don't take that constraint off.

3228
02:34:03.880 --> 02:34:08.080
It just it was something it was one of those assumptions we've just had to simplify.

3229
02:34:08.080 --> 02:34:12.600
But that doesn't mean like, if it's, if there's a better way, I'm flexible, I'm just letting

3230
02:34:12.600 --> 02:34:17.720
the team know, like, we can, we can experiment with it next year and see, see if maybe we

3231
02:34:17.720 --> 02:34:19.080
can spread it out.

3232
02:34:19.440 --> 02:34:20.960
Basically, we know we need margin.

3233
02:34:20.960 --> 02:34:25.080
So I think that's like the decision is like, add margin either in a one month, or two month,

3234
02:34:25.080 --> 02:34:26.920
or we just try it and see how it goes.

3235
02:34:28.440 --> 02:34:29.880
But I do think we need some consistency.

3236
02:34:29.880 --> 02:34:35.280
And I think once we have the cycle decided, then yes, like Chris, you go slot, what what

3237
02:34:35.280 --> 02:34:38.760
are you doing in like, week one, two, three, and four, like, you can kind of have like

3238
02:34:38.760 --> 02:34:43.640
your general map of the month or the six weeks, if that's where we go.

3239
02:34:44.960 --> 02:34:48.680
And same for the developers, like that, you know, I'm working on feature work, and then

3240
02:34:48.680 --> 02:34:53.120
we're going to reactive on week four, or whatever the split is.

3241
02:34:53.200 --> 02:34:57.560
So that'd be, we can definitely take that offline afterwards.

3242
02:34:58.760 --> 02:34:59.760
Okay, yeah.

3243
02:35:00.000 --> 02:35:02.720
The thing I've always said too, because this came up with a couple of teams where it's like,

3244
02:35:02.720 --> 02:35:06.400
yeah, six weeks, like, I feel like they were having trouble with like six weeks and picking

3245
02:35:06.400 --> 02:35:10.960
that as like, can we do shorter time units? Like, I think we need like a four week cycle. And that

3246
02:35:10.960 --> 02:35:15.920
came up, I was like, I mean, you still sit within the same cadence, you think about it this way,

3247
02:35:15.920 --> 02:35:21.520
where it's eight weeks, just I was like, there's no reason you can't do four weeks of features and

3248
02:35:21.520 --> 02:35:25.280
four weeks of, you know, fixes and improvements kind of cool down work if you want, like,

3249
02:35:25.280 --> 02:35:29.760
you can balance it. So I always view it as it's more of just a time box. So that cadence,

3250
02:35:29.760 --> 02:35:34.800
and then you kind of fit, what's the ratio that works for you and your team and keeps it

3251
02:35:34.800 --> 02:35:40.080
consistent. But yeah, that's always something I think the call out would be, figure out what

3252
02:35:40.080 --> 02:35:44.800
cadence works that gives you some level of margin, this could be an experiment you could try. But if

3253
02:35:44.800 --> 02:35:49.280
it's not quite enough, then you know, do you extend it some way or add additional time?

3254
02:35:50.080 --> 02:35:54.720
Potentially, you know, could you do at four and four seems like not enough, you know,

3255
02:35:54.720 --> 02:35:58.800
potentially to do it that way. But you know, it's like, if this one is

3256
02:35:59.520 --> 02:36:03.600
four straight weeks, can the next month be split, you know, so then it's two and

3257
02:36:04.880 --> 02:36:07.680
that's kind of what I thought about it was, you'd still do it.

3258
02:36:08.640 --> 02:36:11.280
It would still line up. But yeah, I know, that's

3259
02:36:12.560 --> 02:36:21.920
Hey, Bruce, I think once we get more of the projects integrated for x tech, right? Because

3260
02:36:21.920 --> 02:36:25.920
as you said, there are no users right now, really, you know, and we see how the system's working,

3261
02:36:26.480 --> 02:36:30.960
it might be a good inflection point to say, okay, we've got these four core areas, right?

3262
02:36:31.600 --> 02:36:37.040
Built, they work as a complete system together, you can actually have users test them to go

3263
02:36:37.040 --> 02:36:42.960
through several workflows, which will designate almost like use case, and test cases. But then

3264
02:36:42.960 --> 02:36:46.640
we could say, Alright, we're going to integrate, since we're gonna have more users, we anticipate

3265
02:36:46.640 --> 02:36:50.560
we're going to need more time to do reactive work. And we could have sort of these firebreak

3266
02:36:50.560 --> 02:36:55.520
kind of sessions, right? So it's like, hey, we did feature development, we're going to kind of,

3267
02:36:55.520 --> 02:36:59.440
you know, go down to this different mode, and kind of work on things that users report and

3268
02:36:59.440 --> 02:37:04.480
stuff like that, instead of just keep plowing on, right, potentially increasing to more bugs

3269
02:37:04.480 --> 02:37:08.240
and things like that, because of the code base, right. So I think that would be an ideal time

3270
02:37:08.240 --> 02:37:11.760
to do it, it doesn't really make sense to do that. Now, though, where we are, because obviously,

3271
02:37:11.760 --> 02:37:16.400
we're deep in trying to make the individual components, and then, you know, we haven't

3272
02:37:16.400 --> 02:37:23.280
integrated everything yet. So it might be a good way to kind of pitch to our clients, you know, then.

3273
02:37:24.960 --> 02:37:31.440
Yeah, that's good. And one just practical question, like, this is good to talk strategy of like the

3274
02:37:31.440 --> 02:37:37.680
weeks, but how do you guys track? Is this in whimsical? Is it in the Google Calendar? Is it in

3275
02:37:37.680 --> 02:37:42.400
linear? Like, how do we know, like, if you're looking kind of zooming out of like the next

3276
02:37:42.400 --> 02:37:48.880
three months, like, okay, here's, these weeks are kind of blocked off for whichever piece or

3277
02:37:49.440 --> 02:37:55.440
feature works happening here? Is there a schedule? Or is this just kind of noted somewhere like this,

3278
02:37:55.440 --> 02:38:00.160
pretty loose? Yeah, so I just posted it ours yesterday. So what I do at the end of the year is

3279
02:38:00.160 --> 02:38:05.760
I set the whole cycle schedule for the next year. So I post them, I give like each cycle, I come up

3280
02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:10.880
with a theme, and I give it like a code name for each cycle. So there's six, pretty much every

3281
02:38:10.880 --> 02:38:14.640
calendar year, it works the same way. If you do a week cycles, there's six full cycles, you can get

3282
02:38:14.640 --> 02:38:18.000
in. And then there's an end of year, I just call it the end of year cycle, which is usually like

3283
02:38:18.000 --> 02:38:21.920
December, which works well, too, because the team can kind of do end of year cleanup, like extended

3284
02:38:21.920 --> 02:38:27.760
cool down time, heavy prep for the next year. We do this across both sides. And this tends to

3285
02:38:27.760 --> 02:38:31.840
work pretty well. But then like with new projects that are kind of off that timeline, that was the

3286
02:38:31.840 --> 02:38:36.240
one I was showing you. And that's what I typically spend time on. Those are just they're set,

3287
02:38:36.240 --> 02:38:40.560
they're on different cadences. So they have a little different rhythms than those other ones.

3288
02:38:40.640 --> 02:38:45.600
Yeah. And what tool do you use to like, communicate that, I guess, to the team?

3289
02:38:48.160 --> 02:38:52.720
I always, yes, I design like I do like a little PDF. It's like a calendar poster

3290
02:38:52.720 --> 02:38:57.600
that has like the titles. It's like themes. That's just because I like to do this. So it gives me a

3291
02:38:57.600 --> 02:39:02.240
chance to do it. And then I have a Google Calendar that's public to everybody that has all of those

3292
02:39:02.240 --> 02:39:06.960
dates listed on it. And then the third piece of linear does have cycles built. And I want to have

3293
02:39:06.960 --> 02:39:10.800
this is not me selling linear, but it does have some stuff that are useful. They have cycles built

3294
02:39:10.800 --> 02:39:17.040
into the product. If I do, if I do, they have, they have cycles built into the product. So you

3295
02:39:17.040 --> 02:39:21.280
can do the same thing in there. So basically, like you can set start what your cooldowns are.

3296
02:39:21.280 --> 02:39:24.880
So you could do what in linear, you could say, Oh, we do three weeks, and then a one week,

3297
02:39:24.880 --> 02:39:29.680
and it'll auto create that. So it'll show Oh, and how many cycles you want to do a year. So they

3298
02:39:29.680 --> 02:39:34.480
let you kind of, which is nice, then you can kind of track things cycle by cycle. So it's kind of

3299
02:39:34.480 --> 02:39:39.120
those three mechanisms technically that we go off of. So the team just works off of they know,

3300
02:39:39.760 --> 02:39:43.680
since most teams are on that, it's a little bit easier. But then the teams that I'm leading are

3301
02:39:43.680 --> 02:39:51.920
always they're off on a different schedule. Cool, that's super helpful. Okay, yeah, like,

3302
02:39:51.920 --> 02:39:55.280
that doesn't mean this might be something work to workshop. So maybe we'll just put that as a

3303
02:39:55.280 --> 02:39:57.440
takeaway. So like,

3304
02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:02.960
I think we had the experiment with adding cool down.

3305
02:40:02.960 --> 02:40:08.040
I think also like an experiment with possibly ending cyclone.

3306
02:40:10.920 --> 02:40:13.400
And I think I already caught out more team rhythms and service

3307
02:40:13.400 --> 02:40:14.840
issues and object progress.

3308
02:40:14.840 --> 02:40:16.640
I think that was kind of a key thing.

3309
02:40:16.640 --> 02:40:19.600
Like I didn't know that this has always been helpful

3310
02:40:19.600 --> 02:40:21.120
for our teams to see this.

3311
02:40:21.120 --> 02:40:23.200
It's just kind of like to whatever

3312
02:40:23.200 --> 02:40:24.320
it ends up being for you.

3313
02:40:24.320 --> 02:40:25.820
Like if you have some consistency,

3314
02:40:25.820 --> 02:40:27.280
it's like a good way to think about it

3315
02:40:27.280 --> 02:40:28.280
from project to project.

3316
02:40:28.280 --> 02:40:31.760
And you know you're scheduling this hour and a half

3317
02:40:31.760 --> 02:40:32.960
block for this workshop.

3318
02:40:32.960 --> 02:40:34.680
And it's recurring every four weeks.

3319
02:40:34.680 --> 02:40:35.880
It sits on this first week.

3320
02:40:35.880 --> 02:40:36.880
And you have that time.

3321
02:40:36.880 --> 02:40:38.960
Maybe you just the following week is like framing.

3322
02:40:38.960 --> 02:40:41.440
Or both of those could just be kind of shaping work

3323
02:40:41.440 --> 02:40:42.720
week to week.

3324
02:40:42.720 --> 02:40:44.360
And then you have this fourth week

3325
02:40:44.360 --> 02:40:45.920
where it's more of the review.

3326
02:40:45.920 --> 02:40:48.760
Reviewing the work, getting the team involved,

3327
02:40:48.760 --> 02:40:50.560
like kind of like double checking on the shaping.

3328
02:40:50.560 --> 02:40:51.760
I think if you have that checkpoint too,

3329
02:40:51.760 --> 02:40:53.680
that might help with some of your kind of 80%

3330
02:40:53.680 --> 02:40:55.760
done and something bleeding in.

3331
02:40:55.760 --> 02:40:58.840
If you have a review point, that could help potentially.

3332
02:40:58.840 --> 02:41:01.800
But the other idea I thought of like kind of top of head.

3333
02:41:01.800 --> 02:41:04.040
So I think another good place that I'd love to hear about,

3334
02:41:04.040 --> 02:41:05.080
because I know this is a pain point,

3335
02:41:05.080 --> 02:41:08.120
just the reactive kind of like maintenance work.

3336
02:41:08.120 --> 02:41:10.920
And then we talked about the daily,

3337
02:41:10.920 --> 02:41:13.840
potentially somebody's kind of on call daily.

3338
02:41:13.840 --> 02:41:16.280
I would also throw out that developers

3339
02:41:16.280 --> 02:41:18.560
being able to give like technical input to shaping

3340
02:41:18.560 --> 02:41:20.160
kind of falls in that bucket to me.

3341
02:41:20.160 --> 02:41:21.440
Where it's like, you need to account for that.

3342
02:41:21.440 --> 02:41:22.720
Like they're building work,

3343
02:41:22.720 --> 02:41:23.880
but they also have to give input.

3344
02:41:23.880 --> 02:41:25.640
And I know that came up in the survey a little bit too,

3345
02:41:26.000 --> 02:41:27.520
where it's like, well, I'm delivering features,

3346
02:41:27.520 --> 02:41:29.360
but, or like I'm shaping work,

3347
02:41:29.360 --> 02:41:31.680
but I need Lucian to come in and like review this pitch

3348
02:41:31.680 --> 02:41:32.520
and give me some feedback.

3349
02:41:32.520 --> 02:41:34.480
But that is context switching for developer.

3350
02:41:34.480 --> 02:41:36.280
Like you're going totally out of the space of the problem

3351
02:41:36.280 --> 02:41:37.520
you're actively solving,

3352
02:41:37.520 --> 02:41:40.160
moving to a totally different problem to think about it.

3353
02:41:40.160 --> 02:41:43.160
So calling out that like on call could also mean more

3354
02:41:43.160 --> 02:41:45.200
than just reactive, like the bug fixing work.

3355
02:41:45.200 --> 02:41:47.200
It also could be like input to shaping

3356
02:41:47.200 --> 02:41:49.400
could be an interesting thing to experiment with.

3357
02:41:49.400 --> 02:41:50.520
Just a thought.

3358
02:41:50.520 --> 02:41:51.360
Not like that.

3359
02:41:51.640 --> 02:41:52.480
Yes.

3360
02:41:54.800 --> 02:41:55.640
Always write that down.

3361
02:41:55.640 --> 02:41:56.480
Just a thing.

3362
02:41:56.480 --> 02:41:57.440
Is there any more like around that?

3363
02:41:57.440 --> 02:41:58.280
So like, what's the current,

3364
02:41:58.280 --> 02:41:59.840
so the currently just like that board

3365
02:41:59.840 --> 02:42:01.480
that tracks all the work, things pop up.

3366
02:42:01.480 --> 02:42:03.480
Who, how do you determine who grabs it?

3367
02:42:06.760 --> 02:42:08.640
We just slack each other and bug each other

3368
02:42:08.640 --> 02:42:09.480
till it happens.

3369
02:42:09.480 --> 02:42:10.520
That was, I don't know.

3370
02:42:10.520 --> 02:42:11.360
There's no system.

3371
02:42:12.840 --> 02:42:14.200
Okay. That's fine.

3372
02:42:14.200 --> 02:42:17.520
No, we, we do have like, for trial,

3373
02:42:17.520 --> 02:42:20.560
at least there's a reactive project where things,

3374
02:42:20.560 --> 02:42:23.360
and it is, there's a lot of backlog in there.

3375
02:42:23.360 --> 02:42:26.640
And so we've tried to be good about like clearing out that,

3376
02:42:26.640 --> 02:42:29.240
you know, November before we start December

3377
02:42:29.240 --> 02:42:30.840
and kind of cleaning it up.

3378
02:42:30.840 --> 02:42:32.640
Cause we don't, we try not to assume that like,

3379
02:42:32.640 --> 02:42:35.240
just cause a bug was there that we thought of doing

3380
02:42:35.240 --> 02:42:36.480
in November.

3381
02:42:36.480 --> 02:42:38.720
If we didn't, we went the whole month of November

3382
02:42:38.720 --> 02:42:39.760
and we still didn't have it.

3383
02:42:39.760 --> 02:42:42.440
Like, is it really that important

3384
02:42:42.440 --> 02:42:44.680
that we have to move it to December?

3385
02:42:44.680 --> 02:42:47.760
Like being more specific, like do we discard these

3386
02:42:47.760 --> 02:42:50.000
or do we, these are, no, this is like really important.

3387
02:42:50.400 --> 02:42:54.200
We want to move this forward and that it's like,

3388
02:42:54.200 --> 02:42:56.520
but that is a problem because we can, those,

3389
02:42:56.520 --> 02:42:57.960
we have to be very careful.

3390
02:42:57.960 --> 02:42:59.520
Cause we've tried it to say like,

3391
02:42:59.520 --> 02:43:02.640
those are all task level, but very easily,

3392
02:43:02.640 --> 02:43:05.360
those are very like, it's right there

3393
02:43:05.360 --> 02:43:07.840
and it can become a project really quick.

3394
02:43:07.840 --> 02:43:10.040
Sometimes it's, there's just some ideas.

3395
02:43:10.040 --> 02:43:11.360
Like we've kept these typically say,

3396
02:43:11.360 --> 02:43:14.880
if it's more than a day of work, we turn it into a project.

3397
02:43:14.880 --> 02:43:16.560
So if it's just a couple hours,

3398
02:43:16.560 --> 02:43:19.400
we think we can knock it out, you know, in a morning,

3399
02:43:20.360 --> 02:43:22.080
then we'll throw it into a task.

3400
02:43:22.080 --> 02:43:25.760
But we have had tasks that as you, like everybody does,

3401
02:43:25.760 --> 02:43:27.480
where you're like, look up and you're like,

3402
02:43:27.480 --> 02:43:29.560
we've been working on this for two weeks.

3403
02:43:29.560 --> 02:43:32.400
There's, you know, two pages of notes in this task.

3404
02:43:32.400 --> 02:43:35.280
And now like, you know, they become,

3405
02:43:35.280 --> 02:43:36.720
it just balloons into that.

3406
02:43:36.720 --> 02:43:40.200
And I'll say I'm the most guilty of that for the tribe side

3407
02:43:40.200 --> 02:43:42.000
because it's less constraints,

3408
02:43:42.000 --> 02:43:43.640
because we don't, we have not quite as tied

3409
02:43:43.640 --> 02:43:45.240
to the clients as much.

3410
02:43:45.240 --> 02:43:48.280
So, and you know, like we start a pro,

3411
02:43:48.280 --> 02:43:49.800
we like have an idea for something.

3412
02:43:50.480 --> 02:43:51.480
We add that and we're like, well, while we're here,

3413
02:43:51.480 --> 02:43:53.240
like let's add this other thing and so forth.

3414
02:43:53.240 --> 02:43:54.960
And then it does turn into a project.

3415
02:43:54.960 --> 02:43:58.880
But I think a lot of this for me is just coming back to,

3416
02:43:58.880 --> 02:44:02.160
for all anyone in product for like me, Carolina, Chris,

3417
02:44:02.160 --> 02:44:04.360
and everybody else who's involved in like the shaping,

3418
02:44:04.360 --> 02:44:06.400
like we have to spend a little bit more time

3419
02:44:06.400 --> 02:44:09.360
on the front end, really thinking deeply about this

3420
02:44:09.360 --> 02:44:11.080
and taking the time to shape the stuff.

3421
02:44:11.080 --> 02:44:12.880
Like this isn't, there's no way

3422
02:44:12.880 --> 02:44:14.480
to quickly shape stuff, right?

3423
02:44:14.480 --> 02:44:16.120
We gotta do the work, we gotta sit there,

3424
02:44:16.120 --> 02:44:19.040
we gotta think it through, iterate on it,

3425
02:44:19.040 --> 02:44:21.080
get to version three, four, five

3426
02:44:21.080 --> 02:44:22.840
before it's like ready to present.

3427
02:44:23.880 --> 02:44:26.080
And I think that's gonna help us.

3428
02:44:26.080 --> 02:44:27.520
Once we get to do the work,

3429
02:44:27.520 --> 02:44:30.120
we're gonna basically prep really, really well.

3430
02:44:30.120 --> 02:44:31.560
And then at least gives us like,

3431
02:44:31.560 --> 02:44:32.720
with the things that pop up,

3432
02:44:32.720 --> 02:44:36.000
we're like very much in control of those variables

3433
02:44:36.000 --> 02:44:38.840
or as in control as we can be,

3434
02:44:38.840 --> 02:44:41.280
because we have like sort of a mass or grasp

3435
02:44:41.280 --> 02:44:43.880
on everything that has to happen for this project.

3436
02:44:43.880 --> 02:44:45.320
And we've had technical input,

3437
02:44:45.320 --> 02:44:46.400
we've had a bunch of different things.

3438
02:44:46.400 --> 02:44:49.320
So I think that's one of my takeaways.

3439
02:44:49.320 --> 02:44:52.520
It's just been a little bit more intentionality,

3440
02:44:52.520 --> 02:44:53.360
a little more time.

3441
02:44:53.360 --> 02:44:56.520
It's not like gonna be like these three hacks

3442
02:44:56.520 --> 02:44:58.520
will cut our shaping time down in half.

3443
02:44:58.520 --> 02:45:00.000
Like that's not the goal here.

3444
02:45:00.000 --> 02:45:02.520
And we actually probably need to spend much more time

3445
02:45:02.520 --> 02:45:05.120
and exercise those muscles.

3446
02:45:05.120 --> 02:45:07.120
And then it'll get faster over time.

3447
02:45:07.120 --> 02:45:09.640
But some of it's just doing the work.

3448
02:45:14.760 --> 02:45:15.360
Yeah.

3449
02:45:15.360 --> 02:45:18.800
No, I found what I did the exact same thing

3450
02:45:18.800 --> 02:45:21.400
with fixing the impairments is just what I generically call it.

3451
02:45:21.400 --> 02:45:23.440
Anything that falls in there is a day or less.

3452
02:45:23.440 --> 02:45:24.560
And then you just give it to us.

3453
02:45:24.560 --> 02:45:26.080
It's time boxed, or they go into it,

3454
02:45:26.080 --> 02:45:27.960
like, yep, way more uphill work than I

3455
02:45:27.960 --> 02:45:30.520
thought, then it's got to bubble up into a project.

3456
02:45:30.520 --> 02:45:32.040
It's got to get some level of shape.

3457
02:45:32.040 --> 02:45:34.560
I mean, we're shaping, like, all those things are happening,

3458
02:45:34.560 --> 02:45:36.520
like, framing, shaping, building.

3459
02:45:36.520 --> 02:45:39.120
Like, that loop happens at every level.

3460
02:45:39.120 --> 02:45:40.920
So even if you're just starting that work.

3461
02:45:40.920 --> 02:45:43.240
But another thing I thought of just sharing a tactic

3462
02:45:43.240 --> 02:45:45.400
that I've liked a lot, and this is the demo thing,

3463
02:45:45.400 --> 02:45:49.320
is for developers, it's like, every week, like, so linear.

3464
02:45:49.320 --> 02:45:50.820
I feel like I'm selling linear again.

3465
02:45:50.820 --> 02:45:51.320
I'm not.

3466
02:45:51.320 --> 02:45:52.880
I'm like, there's tools.

3467
02:45:52.880 --> 02:45:54.480
You can do whatever in whatever tool.

3468
02:45:54.480 --> 02:45:55.440
I'm not selling linear.

3469
02:45:55.440 --> 02:45:57.680
But they have this built in, so it's useful.

3470
02:45:57.680 --> 02:45:59.680
Just calling out, they have like a,

3471
02:45:59.680 --> 02:46:02.520
so if you're assigned a project, so, like, the feature you're

3472
02:46:02.520 --> 02:46:04.200
working on, it's like a health check

3473
02:46:04.200 --> 02:46:05.240
you can assign every week.

3474
02:46:05.240 --> 02:46:07.280
So you do, like, a on track, off track, at risk,

3475
02:46:07.280 --> 02:46:08.880
and, like, a text update each week.

3476
02:46:08.880 --> 02:46:11.440
So that's super helpful for me, because, like, I go and see,

3477
02:46:11.440 --> 02:46:11.960
are they blocked?

3478
02:46:11.960 --> 02:46:13.000
Are they making progress?

3479
02:46:13.000 --> 02:46:14.880
But I always say, like, include, like, a loom demo.

3480
02:46:14.880 --> 02:46:16.280
So, like, show working software.

3481
02:46:16.280 --> 02:46:17.960
It's like, demo, where you're at so far?

3482
02:46:17.960 --> 02:46:19.080
Like, just talk, because, again, it's

3483
02:46:19.080 --> 02:46:22.080
that nuance and that context that a developer can provide.

3484
02:46:22.080 --> 02:46:24.680
And it's such a great little breadcrumb trail along the way.

3485
02:46:24.680 --> 02:46:26.600
That's where I'm, like, trying to get more towards,

3486
02:46:26.600 --> 02:46:28.680
like, you can write this stuff out and document it,

3487
02:46:28.680 --> 02:46:30.680
but it's, like, loom or other tools like that.

3488
02:46:30.680 --> 02:46:32.000
It's, like, just talk through it and, like,

3489
02:46:32.000 --> 02:46:33.880
have that artifact that you can share along the way.

3490
02:46:33.880 --> 02:46:34.920
So I'll just call out.

3491
02:46:34.920 --> 02:46:36.720
I think, like, weekly demos are, like,

3492
02:46:36.720 --> 02:46:38.280
the idea of a weekly update.

3493
02:46:38.280 --> 02:46:41.360
Like, that's a good checkpoint, no matter what cadence you use.

3494
02:46:41.360 --> 02:46:42.960
Something like that could be useful.

3495
02:46:52.840 --> 02:46:55.000
And also, as a formative perspective, too,

3496
02:46:55.040 --> 02:46:56.800
it prevents you from having to get pulled into, like,

3497
02:46:56.800 --> 02:46:57.720
the, hey, where's this at?

3498
02:46:57.720 --> 02:46:58.720
Or, like, oh, this nuance.

3499
02:46:58.720 --> 02:47:00.720
Like, if you just, you surface it yourself,

3500
02:47:00.720 --> 02:47:01.800
again, you can plan it.

3501
02:47:01.800 --> 02:47:02.920
You can say, every Monday morning,

3502
02:47:02.920 --> 02:47:03.920
I know I'm, like, gonna review.

3503
02:47:03.920 --> 02:47:05.560
And I'm just big on, like,

3504
02:47:05.560 --> 02:47:08.000
I think the thing that I'm zeroing in on here,

3505
02:47:08.000 --> 02:47:10.040
just as I see all these different tactics,

3506
02:47:10.040 --> 02:47:12.080
is, like, if you're gonna spend, like, the highest,

3507
02:47:12.080 --> 02:47:14.320
like, the 80-20, the highest impact you guys could have

3508
02:47:14.320 --> 02:47:17.200
is figuring out how to create margin.

3509
02:47:17.200 --> 02:47:19.120
Because I think a lot of these stem

3510
02:47:19.120 --> 02:47:21.360
from not having some small window

3511
02:47:21.360 --> 02:47:23.480
where you're getting a chance to, like, review

3512
02:47:23.480 --> 02:47:25.040
and, like, do a little bit of prep work.

3513
02:47:25.040 --> 02:47:26.440
Find what fits in your cadence,

3514
02:47:26.440 --> 02:47:28.320
but that's just my recommendation would be, like,

3515
02:47:28.320 --> 02:47:30.640
figure out, like, how can you get a little bit more margin?

3516
02:47:30.640 --> 02:47:33.280
Even if you try a little bit of extra margin right now,

3517
02:47:33.280 --> 02:47:35.440
I think you'll, a lot of these things

3518
02:47:35.440 --> 02:47:38.240
will come to life through that, potentially.

3519
02:47:41.600 --> 02:47:44.080
Bernardo, did you have something?

3520
02:47:44.080 --> 02:47:48.680
Yeah, I was going to ask about the reactive work.

3521
02:47:48.680 --> 02:47:51.320
Do you have any mental model or framework

3522
02:47:51.320 --> 02:47:55.200
that you use to think about when a customer comes

3523
02:47:55.200 --> 02:47:58.280
with something that, for them, it's a fire?

3524
02:47:58.280 --> 02:48:02.160
But how do you usually think about it to, like,

3525
02:48:02.160 --> 02:48:04.080
okay, this can wait a little bit,

3526
02:48:04.080 --> 02:48:05.840
this needs to be done now,

3527
02:48:05.840 --> 02:48:09.320
or this even can be, like, postponed to next week

3528
02:48:09.320 --> 02:48:10.520
or cool down?

3529
02:48:10.520 --> 02:48:12.000
Like, do you have any,

3530
02:48:12.000 --> 02:48:15.120
I know it's probably not a clear-cutter,

3531
02:48:15.120 --> 02:48:17.440
but how do you think about it?

3532
02:48:18.440 --> 02:48:21.400
Yeah, yeah, there's never a super clear way.

3533
02:48:21.400 --> 02:48:24.600
I say that my general strategy has always been

3534
02:48:24.600 --> 02:48:28.320
you need to force the client to confirm

3535
02:48:28.320 --> 02:48:30.600
that this is important by telling them

3536
02:48:30.600 --> 02:48:32.720
what they're going to lose as a result.

3537
02:48:32.720 --> 02:48:37.600
So usually it starts with, hey, you're, we can go do this.

3538
02:48:37.600 --> 02:48:39.480
That means this is getting deprioritized

3539
02:48:39.480 --> 02:48:40.640
and it's going to change the timeline.

3540
02:48:40.640 --> 02:48:41.680
Are you okay with that?

3541
02:48:41.680 --> 02:48:43.880
So, like, that's sort of a CYA kind of thing.

3542
02:48:43.880 --> 02:48:45.520
But also, like, I make sure that, hey,

3543
02:48:46.000 --> 02:48:47.760
we're shifting priorities from this to this,

3544
02:48:47.760 --> 02:48:49.280
so the timeline's going to change.

3545
02:48:49.280 --> 02:48:51.760
If it's super important to them,

3546
02:48:51.760 --> 02:48:53.440
then they'll say, yeah, drop that, that's fine.

3547
02:48:53.440 --> 02:48:54.880
So, and you have, you've covered yourself,

3548
02:48:54.880 --> 02:48:56.200
but you have acknowledgement there.

3549
02:48:56.200 --> 02:48:57.720
And then I think there is some level of, like,

3550
02:48:57.720 --> 02:48:59.720
coaching around, and it takes a lot of effort

3551
02:48:59.720 --> 02:49:02.440
for a developer to context switch over to this other thing.

3552
02:49:02.440 --> 02:49:03.560
We lose momentum.

3553
02:49:03.560 --> 02:49:05.920
So I think I do a lot of coaching around, like, momentum.

3554
02:49:05.920 --> 02:49:08.120
Like, that's a huge part of software development.

3555
02:49:08.120 --> 02:49:09.480
Like, you got to get moving on things.

3556
02:49:09.480 --> 02:49:11.960
So you kind of just have to create,

3557
02:49:11.960 --> 02:49:13.760
make sure there's an acknowledgement to them,

3558
02:49:13.760 --> 02:49:14.960
like, that this is not,

3559
02:49:15.320 --> 02:49:16.320
they always view it as, like,

3560
02:49:16.320 --> 02:49:17.720
oh, you can solve this bug

3561
02:49:17.720 --> 02:49:19.480
and keep the progress on the other thing.

3562
02:49:19.480 --> 02:49:21.320
Like, that they don't, there's no trade-off to them.

3563
02:49:21.320 --> 02:49:22.400
But there's, like, you have to raise it.

3564
02:49:22.400 --> 02:49:24.040
No, there is a trade, there's an inherent trade-off.

3565
02:49:24.040 --> 02:49:25.880
We may still stay on schedule,

3566
02:49:25.880 --> 02:49:27.480
but just acknowledging that,

3567
02:49:27.480 --> 02:49:29.120
that's the thing that I've had the most success with,

3568
02:49:29.120 --> 02:49:32.400
at least with keeping them with that.

3569
02:49:33.800 --> 02:49:34.960
Perfect, perfect.

3570
02:49:36.640 --> 02:49:37.800
Cool.

3571
02:49:37.800 --> 02:49:39.760
All right, so now we're coming up on 10 minutes here.

3572
02:49:39.760 --> 02:49:41.080
So I'm gonna make sure I can land the plan on things.

3573
02:49:41.080 --> 02:49:44.120
I will give, like, a lot of, like,

3574
02:49:44.120 --> 02:49:45.240
we're summarizing a lot of things.

3575
02:49:45.240 --> 02:49:46.440
I think I have a ton of things here

3576
02:49:46.440 --> 02:49:49.680
and lots of templates and things I can share afterwards.

3577
02:49:49.680 --> 02:49:52.920
Like I said, I think, which we have it,

3578
02:49:54.200 --> 02:49:56.200
I think, like, adding a cool-down the margin thing.

3579
02:49:56.200 --> 02:49:57.400
I still think, and I'll give, like,

3580
02:49:57.400 --> 02:49:58.960
kind of recommendations as I reflect on it,

3581
02:49:58.960 --> 02:49:59.800
but I feel like.

3582
02:50:00.000 --> 02:50:02.400
That has a lot of, there's a lot of leverage to that.

3583
02:50:02.400 --> 02:50:06.720
If you can get to some space where there's some space in between things, I think you'll

3584
02:50:06.720 --> 02:50:07.520
be able to figure it out.

3585
02:50:07.520 --> 02:50:11.840
And I think that will, that will help you build rhythms that you can work within that

3586
02:50:11.840 --> 02:50:16.640
are a little bit more formulaic and you're scheduled, then you have those in there.

3587
02:50:16.640 --> 02:50:18.640
And that will help you kind of predict more of your time.

3588
02:50:18.640 --> 02:50:20.560
You can manage more of the on-call work.

3589
02:50:20.560 --> 02:50:24.800
I definitely think like the technical perspectives on shaping, cause it's kind of nice that if

3590
02:50:24.800 --> 02:50:27.360
you're shaping, I heard this in some of the survey feedback, it's like, well, I'm shaping

3591
02:50:27.360 --> 02:50:29.760
this thing and I need someone's input into it.

3592
02:50:30.000 --> 02:50:33.520
And I know like from a development perspective, maybe you all can't look at everybody's thing.

3593
02:50:33.520 --> 02:50:37.440
It's like specific areas you look at, but I also like to force the knowledge sharing

3594
02:50:37.440 --> 02:50:40.400
and like just make sure everybody understands it.

3595
02:50:40.400 --> 02:50:43.520
So maybe you pull in somebody who didn't build the feature, but they can look at it

3596
02:50:43.520 --> 02:50:45.280
from a technical perspective and get up to speed.

3597
02:50:45.280 --> 02:50:50.160
Cause they're on call that day for all reactive work and all, you know, giving technical perspectives

3598
02:50:50.160 --> 02:50:51.680
on anything being shaped currently.

3599
02:50:51.680 --> 02:50:55.920
So there's always a developer handling those to protect with time if everybody else could

3600
02:50:55.920 --> 02:50:56.320
be a thing.

3601
02:50:57.360 --> 02:50:59.360
So there's a lot of tactics here, a lot of good things.

3602
02:50:59.360 --> 02:51:00.320
I will summarize all this.

3603
02:51:00.320 --> 02:51:03.920
Like I said, there's lots of templates I have and links to other resources that are, that

3604
02:51:03.920 --> 02:51:04.880
are super helpful.

3605
02:51:04.880 --> 02:51:06.400
And I'm going to share a notion page.

3606
02:51:06.400 --> 02:51:09.200
I'd love to get feedback, but I also want to create a little mechanism for all of you

3607
02:51:09.200 --> 02:51:10.000
to like, this is a lot.

3608
02:51:10.000 --> 02:51:11.120
This has been three hours.

3609
02:51:11.120 --> 02:51:14.240
I haven't done like, I've done this with teams like internally for years.

3610
02:51:14.240 --> 02:51:15.440
I've never done it like externally.

3611
02:51:15.440 --> 02:51:19.680
It's super fun for me, but there's so many different places we can go and I'm sure things

3612
02:51:19.680 --> 02:51:20.400
will surface for you.

3613
02:51:20.400 --> 02:51:21.760
And I still want to be a resource.

3614
02:51:21.760 --> 02:51:26.160
So I would love to like, as you have those questions, I'll put a little database or something

3615
02:51:26.160 --> 02:51:27.440
in notion in the page that I share.

3616
02:51:27.440 --> 02:51:28.560
So you guys can ask questions.

3617
02:51:28.560 --> 02:51:30.000
Cause I'd love to kind of follow up with this.

3618
02:51:30.000 --> 02:51:34.080
I want to give you a good writeup of all the summary of this and kind of what we landed

3619
02:51:34.080 --> 02:51:34.320
on.

3620
02:51:34.320 --> 02:51:38.640
But as specific things pop up, you know, you know, Bruce and I can figure out, I can help

3621
02:51:38.640 --> 02:51:40.000
in many different ways.

3622
02:51:40.000 --> 02:51:44.160
And I'd love to, cause this is the stuff I really enjoy because it's taking the principles

3623
02:51:44.160 --> 02:51:47.120
for God applies to your unique companies.

3624
02:51:47.120 --> 02:51:47.920
Hopefully you feel that.

3625
02:51:47.920 --> 02:51:51.200
And I think you have, you're kind of experiencing like, Hey, we want to adopt these principles,

3626
02:51:51.200 --> 02:51:55.760
but like we're not 37 signals and the way they operate, they have a certain method,

3627
02:51:55.760 --> 02:51:58.960
but take the principles out of it and find a way that works well for you.

3628
02:51:58.960 --> 02:52:01.760
And I think there's some like small things you can experiment with regularly.

3629
02:52:01.760 --> 02:52:06.080
Cause those reviews will also give you that margin will give you a good place to check

3630
02:52:06.080 --> 02:52:06.880
those experiments.

3631
02:52:06.880 --> 02:52:08.800
Like, Hey, next week, let's try this on-call thing.

3632
02:52:09.520 --> 02:52:12.000
Then when that next review point comes up, did it work?

3633
02:52:12.000 --> 02:52:12.560
Yes or no.

3634
02:52:12.560 --> 02:52:13.040
Okay.

3635
02:52:13.040 --> 02:52:14.640
That's the thing I found to work the best.

3636
02:52:14.640 --> 02:52:18.240
That's how I've made the process improve over time is just having those spots.

3637
02:52:18.240 --> 02:52:20.880
So I feel like that's a huge part of this for you.

3638
02:52:26.080 --> 02:52:26.320
Okay.

3639
02:52:26.320 --> 02:52:29.600
So that was kind of my, I don't want to get too deep in something else, but we do have,

3640
02:52:29.600 --> 02:52:30.960
I want to make sure we use the time.

3641
02:52:30.960 --> 02:52:34.320
So let's like, are there open questions, open loops, things in your head that you've had?

3642
02:52:34.320 --> 02:52:37.200
That's like, we could talk there a little bit more deeply.

3643
02:52:39.840 --> 02:52:41.680
Any questions that have popped up along the way?

3644
02:52:45.920 --> 02:52:49.200
So I don't know the size of projects that do this.

3645
02:52:49.200 --> 02:52:52.320
I know that in my career, I haven't had a lot of experience with.

3646
02:52:53.280 --> 02:52:56.800
Like NPS score, NPS and all that kind of stuff.

3647
02:52:56.800 --> 02:53:00.480
Like, do you have clients that actually request that?

3648
02:53:00.480 --> 02:53:08.080
Or, you know, have you had good alternative solutions to that, or at least unearthing

3649
02:53:08.080 --> 02:53:12.160
and highlighting some of the insights that could come out of something like that?

3650
02:53:13.680 --> 02:53:13.840
Yeah.

3651
02:53:13.840 --> 02:53:18.000
So NPS is an interesting one because I think even the person who invented it, he ended

3652
02:53:18.000 --> 02:53:20.720
up saying at some point, like, yeah, we're going to like most things we just sort of

3653
02:53:20.720 --> 02:53:21.200
adopt it.

3654
02:53:21.200 --> 02:53:22.640
But then nobody goes back to that person.

3655
02:53:22.640 --> 02:53:24.320
Like, actually, it wasn't meant to be like this.

3656
02:53:24.320 --> 02:53:28.080
The general thinking is, like, from a psychology perspective, if you're asking people, how

3657
02:53:28.080 --> 02:53:30.160
likely are you to recommend this thing?

3658
02:53:30.160 --> 02:53:33.200
You're making an assumption that they're a person that recommends products to people

3659
02:53:33.200 --> 02:53:34.480
that they know, which is not common.

3660
02:53:34.480 --> 02:53:37.760
Not a lot of us are like running, like, I'm talking about linear here, but I'm usually

3661
02:53:37.760 --> 02:53:40.720
not like telling my mom about linear or, you know, random people.

3662
02:53:41.280 --> 02:53:45.520
So the question, the latest trend has been more towards the CSAT or customer satisfaction

3663
02:53:45.520 --> 02:53:45.840
score.

3664
02:53:45.840 --> 02:53:50.000
So it's just, how satisfied are you with this product or service?

3665
02:53:50.000 --> 02:53:51.200
So I've done that.

3666
02:53:51.200 --> 02:53:53.200
And that's part of those product team health metrics.

3667
02:53:53.200 --> 02:53:56.640
I just call it stakeholder satisfaction because we can send it to customers.

3668
02:53:56.640 --> 02:53:58.000
We can send it to clients.

3669
02:53:58.000 --> 02:54:00.160
And it's sort of the same fundamental question.

3670
02:54:00.160 --> 02:54:01.200
And that's just what I capture.

3671
02:54:01.200 --> 02:54:05.280
I try and get that once a year just to get a sense for tracking how satisfied they are.

3672
02:54:06.080 --> 02:54:07.680
I find that to be useful.

3673
02:54:07.680 --> 02:54:09.680
And I think you can use it in the product space or not.

3674
02:54:09.680 --> 02:54:15.440
So I've heard that was the shift from NPS to that specific metric, which does make sense.

3675
02:54:16.640 --> 02:54:17.520
That's good.

3676
02:54:17.520 --> 02:54:17.920
Thanks.

3677
02:54:17.920 --> 02:54:18.160
Yeah.

3678
02:54:19.200 --> 02:54:19.440
Sure.

3679
02:54:20.960 --> 02:54:24.800
Any other open questions?

3680
02:54:24.800 --> 02:54:25.520
I'm going to keep talking.

3681
02:54:26.320 --> 02:54:32.240
So do you also do, since you do have clients as well that you're building things for, do

3682
02:54:32.240 --> 02:54:36.560
you also do like a year in review, things you've accomplished, not as a pat yourself

3683
02:54:36.560 --> 02:54:40.000
on the back, but sort of like a, hey, here's where we've been, right?

3684
02:54:40.000 --> 02:54:41.280
Here's where we're going next.

3685
02:54:41.280 --> 02:54:44.240
I mean, at a higher level than, oh, here's some pitches, you know, that you can look

3686
02:54:44.240 --> 02:54:44.560
at.

3687
02:54:44.560 --> 02:54:45.040
Do you do that?

3688
02:54:45.040 --> 02:54:47.360
And what's been the reception to that, I guess?

3689
02:54:48.320 --> 02:54:52.640
Yeah, we've, I think, I think I deleted our version of it, but yeah, I think I had in

3690
02:54:52.640 --> 02:54:56.800
here too, that like the team once, cause I always say it's like parallel paths happening.

3691
02:54:56.800 --> 02:54:59.280
It's like, there's the strategy work that, you know, like you would be doing Chris.

3692
02:54:59.280 --> 02:54:59.840
And then there's like.

3693
02:55:00.000 --> 02:55:02.880
you know, the development building work, they're happening in parallel, you're looking ahead,

3694
02:55:02.880 --> 02:55:07.280
but they're building what you previously worked on. During that period, I tried to like product

3695
02:55:07.280 --> 02:55:10.960
demos, like take the product lead, it's like, go and like zoom out, like, what did we deliver?

3696
02:55:10.960 --> 02:55:14.800
What? And I think this is part of those success metrics, too. It's a good place to remind,

3697
02:55:14.800 --> 02:55:17.920
because you'll hear in the product world, there's like feature factories, where it's like, we're

3698
02:55:17.920 --> 02:55:21.600
just churning out features left and right. But it's like, if you're not measuring the progress

3699
02:55:21.600 --> 02:55:25.760
and the impact that's being had and learning from that, then you know, what's the point? So yeah,

3700
02:55:25.760 --> 02:55:29.520
we try and like do we haven't done it as officially enough, I'm actually trying to implement this for

3701
02:55:29.520 --> 02:55:33.760
next year, but doing like a product demos where it's like, can this I like creating an artifact

3702
02:55:33.760 --> 02:55:38.560
that that's serves multiple things. So like the team, like we can, our company can all rally

3703
02:55:38.560 --> 02:55:42.160
around it, because I can see what another team built and is working on, we can send it to the

3704
02:55:42.160 --> 02:55:47.360
client. And I think it reinforces that cycle cadence. So if you shift to something longer,

3705
02:55:47.360 --> 02:55:51.280
but you have a more formal artifact that you're doing to show them what was delivered in that

3706
02:55:51.280 --> 02:55:55.440
batch of work, it could help reinforce that, like, hey, we work this way, because it gives us ample

3707
02:55:55.440 --> 02:56:00.800
time to create impactful work. And that could be potentially some way to look at it. So that's kind

3708
02:56:00.800 --> 02:56:04.160
of been the loose thing I called it, I had it, I think, when I pasted this in, I had it as like,

3709
02:56:04.160 --> 02:56:08.480
stakeholder presentation was one thing. But I think product demos was kind of one thing we did.

3710
02:56:08.480 --> 02:56:12.080
We used to do those real time, the whole company would come together, and each product lead would

3711
02:56:12.080 --> 02:56:16.240
talk through it. We liked it, but it was a lot of time and energy, we switched async to them,

3712
02:56:16.240 --> 02:56:20.800
but then I have to chase people down to try and get them. So trying to find a good balance there.

3713
02:56:20.800 --> 02:56:25.200
But I do think something where you can, even for you, like, it's good to just kind of reflect on

3714
02:56:25.200 --> 02:56:29.440
it. I think if you have those, again, back to those margin, if you have that spot, where you're not

3715
02:56:29.440 --> 02:56:34.160
having to shape the next thing, or you're in the middle of the current work, you have a place where

3716
02:56:34.160 --> 02:56:38.400
you can figure out, can I do a demo? Can I do something, some artifact and create that as part

3717
02:56:38.400 --> 02:56:46.640
of the rhythms? That's good. Thanks. It's awesome. One thing that worked well, Chris, I don't think

3718
02:56:46.640 --> 02:56:52.800
we talked about this, but on the tribe side, we had, I had some time to like strategize for the

3719
02:56:52.880 --> 02:56:58.240
for Q4. And so as we came into Q4, like we had a little, I just did a little document that I shared

3720
02:56:58.240 --> 02:57:03.680
with Carolina and Lucian, and Macy. And so we kind of covered like, here's the just kind of

3721
02:57:03.680 --> 02:57:10.160
an overarching theme of it. So I think we could do that kind of forward looking to like, hey, here's

3722
02:57:10.160 --> 02:57:14.800
those kind of, as you were saying, like, there's themes, maybe to the cycles, or, hey, we're gonna

3723
02:57:14.800 --> 02:57:19.760
do this thing, we're gonna really focus on this area. But doing it at the kind of, even at the

3724
02:57:19.760 --> 02:57:25.120
team level as well. So I was, I made a note to myself to like, I definitely will do one for 2024,

3725
02:57:25.120 --> 02:57:28.960
just from my perspective. And of course, anyone else wants to do that would be great.

3726
02:57:30.320 --> 02:57:37.440
But also just thinking like, I think like quarterly is probably as granular as we can get,

3727
02:57:37.440 --> 02:57:41.760
because I think things, it's hard to like imagine everything we want to do for 12 months next year.

3728
02:57:41.760 --> 02:57:45.680
But if we just said, hey, next quarter, we're going to like, experiment with some different

3729
02:57:45.680 --> 02:57:49.680
cycles. And we're going to do, you know, this, and by the end of it, we'd like to have

3730
02:57:50.320 --> 02:57:55.280
our like decision on like, which way we're going with like, the cadence, the rhythms, like the

3731
02:57:55.280 --> 02:58:00.240
cycles, all that stuff dialed in, that just be one sort of overarching thing, just know like, hey,

3732
02:58:00.240 --> 02:58:03.760
we're going to experiment, it may not be the same for January as it is for February, but it's going

3733
02:58:03.760 --> 02:58:09.120
to be different. And then just kind of set everybody's expectations. So I think that'd be good.

3734
02:58:09.120 --> 02:58:13.280
So you can kind of do the retrospective stuff. But also, I think, taking a little time to like,

3735
02:58:13.840 --> 02:58:18.320
write up a sort of blog post of what is what's to come. I think it's helpful.

3736
02:58:19.920 --> 02:58:23.280
Oh, and that's actually the one thing I've liked about that. If you do the six cycles a year,

3737
02:58:23.280 --> 02:58:28.880
you're kind of in the headspace of like, what six big things can we ship this year, it gets you like,

3738
02:58:28.880 --> 02:58:32.240
it kind of simplifies the framing a little bit. And then Chris, you asked more about year in

3739
02:58:32.240 --> 02:58:35.760
review. But I think if you do those, whatever the cadence is, if you have those like individual

3740
02:58:35.760 --> 02:58:40.000
checkpoints, then the year in review one is just kind of like, reflect on everything you did,

3741
02:58:40.000 --> 02:58:43.840
you know, and that's, I always encourage teams to do that. Because it's, it's very easy to just

3742
02:58:43.840 --> 02:58:48.320
move to the next thing. You know, it's like the, whatever the achievement bias for just kind of

3743
02:58:48.320 --> 02:58:52.720
you get to the thing, but you know, all right, cool. I ran a 10k. And that's what I wanted to

3744
02:58:52.720 --> 02:58:55.040
do. Well, now I got to run the next thing, you kind of like lose that. But it's like,

3745
02:58:55.040 --> 02:58:58.480
well, if you reflect on like, where did you start? So I think having those, I think, again,

3746
02:58:58.480 --> 02:59:03.600
this all comes back to you guys can create that space that little bit of margin for some of these

3747
02:59:03.600 --> 02:59:06.800
to introduce these rhythms, you'll be able to create some of those artifacts.

3748
02:59:11.200 --> 02:59:11.840
Very helpful.

3749
02:59:16.000 --> 02:59:19.600
We're close on time. But yeah, I'll reiterate again, like, you know, Bruce will reconnect,

3750
02:59:19.600 --> 02:59:23.120
I would love that. Yeah, I'll send out I'll summarize all this stuff, because I want you

3751
02:59:23.120 --> 02:59:26.240
to have a good takeaway of like, here's some tactics. And then I'll give you a mechanism.

3752
02:59:26.240 --> 02:59:30.000
I'll send out the email to everybody. But then I'll give you a link. I have a notion page I've

3753
02:59:30.000 --> 02:59:33.520
been building that you guys can do get access to all this, I'll include the recording, all that

3754
02:59:33.520 --> 02:59:37.120
sort of stuff. So you'll have this again, I know this was a lot to unpack. But I would love to be

3755
02:59:37.120 --> 02:59:41.280
a resource to just answer questions. Like I'm very interested in how this expresses for other teams,

3756
02:59:41.280 --> 02:59:45.280
it helps me and all that. So just happy to answer more questions. And appreciate all you taking

3757
02:59:45.280 --> 02:59:49.280
time. It's a long three hours to go through this. But I appreciate you sharing everything.

3758
02:59:49.920 --> 02:59:53.760
Yeah, we really appreciate it. If you guys want to take a second, I know Jonathan, you just did

3759
02:59:53.760 --> 02:59:58.240
this, but anyone else just give some feedback. I know Drew can go in there and screenshot some

3760
02:59:58.240 --> 02:59:59.920
comments just so he can love it.

3761
03:00:00.000 --> 03:00:10.000
This is one of your first ones and I know you want to do a lot more of this so I'm already posting something on X with the photo. So you can use that if you want.

3762
03:00:10.000 --> 03:00:11.000
Love it.

3763
03:00:11.000 --> 03:00:23.000
But, uh, love it. So you could just drop some love in the chat would be great. But yeah, thanks. Thanks for taking the time and letting us be kind of a guinea pig for your for this. This is great. I think we got tons of value.

3764
03:00:23.000 --> 03:00:27.000
I've got more out of it than I was thinking we would. So this is great.

3765
03:00:28.000 --> 03:00:36.000
Glad to hear it. Yeah, no, I appreciate everybody. Yeah, same. Yeah, Bruce did a better job than I did. Please give the feedback because it does help me. I would love to try and do this with more teams, help more teams.

3766
03:00:36.000 --> 03:00:53.000
Like, I think there's just so many frameworks out there and everybody just tries to apply these off the shelf solutions, but we're all unique, like individually and our teams and organizations that, you know, I want to try and help teams like, you know, feel some like less stress and actually get to deliver work on time because it fits your natural rhythm.

3767
03:00:54.000 --> 03:01:05.000
So appreciate everybody doing that. And I'll send all this stuff out and hopefully everybody can take a good breather. Enjoy the rest of your day and week and reconnect.

3768
03:01:05.000 --> 03:01:07.000
Awesome. Thanks, guys.

3769
03:01:07.000 --> 03:01:08.000
Thanks, Andrew.

3770
03:01:08.000 --> 03:01:09.000
Thanks, everybody. Thank you.

3771
03:01:09.000 --> 03:01:10.000
Thanks, Andrew.

3772
03:01:10.000 --> 03:01:11.000
Bye bye.

3773
03:01:11.000 --> 03:01:12.000
Thanks.

3774
03:01:23.000 --> 03:01:24.000
Bye bye.

3775
03:01:53.000 --> 03:01:54.000
Bye bye.

3776
03:02:23.000 --> 03:02:26.000
Hello.

3777
03:02:26.000 --> 03:02:30.000
I am sorry I came in off of me with this.