WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.200 We're gonna talk a little bit about framing today. 2 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.080 Framing is super important in Anovo 3 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:08.400 because framing is really one of our most powerful 4 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:09.240 sales tool. 5 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:11.600 We sell weeks at Anovo. 6 00:00:11.600 --> 00:00:14.840 And so it is our unit of measure for all projects 7 00:00:14.840 --> 00:00:17.880 for cost for the price of a project. 8 00:00:17.880 --> 00:00:20.040 And so if we can get the framing right 9 00:00:20.040 --> 00:00:23.060 and kind of decide, hey, the appetite is two weeks, 10 00:00:23.060 --> 00:00:24.400 you know, this is what we're planning to do. 11 00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:25.460 Here's the problem we're solving. 12 00:00:25.460 --> 00:00:26.300 Here's the outcome. 13 00:00:26.300 --> 00:00:27.120 Here's what we're not doing. 14 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.560 And kind of clarify that and put an appetite on it. 15 00:00:29.560 --> 00:00:32.520 It's essentially a sellable unit at that point. 16 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.480 And so everybody is gonna be part of the shaping process, 17 00:00:35.480 --> 00:00:37.400 whether you're a developer, designer, 18 00:00:37.400 --> 00:00:39.160 you're helping manage a project. 19 00:00:39.160 --> 00:00:40.360 Everybody's gonna be part of that 20 00:00:40.360 --> 00:00:43.440 because this is sort of our mutual agreement 21 00:00:43.440 --> 00:00:44.960 of how the project's gonna go. 22 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.240 In previous times, we went and in other, 23 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.380 you know, agencies typically, you know, 24 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:54.200 a project manager sits with a client 25 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:56.620 and they get a laundry list of like all the requirements. 26 00:00:56.620 --> 00:00:58.640 We write it up in this massive document. 27 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:01.320 And then we try to work with the developer internally 28 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:05.040 and figure out, okay, how many people are we going to, 29 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:07.160 I mean, how much time is this gonna take? 30 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:09.320 And we try to guess at random estimates. 31 00:01:09.320 --> 00:01:12.920 And then we say, okay, this is 182 hours, we think, 32 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:15.280 based on all these random guesses. 33 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.560 And then we try to bring that in a huge contract 34 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:18.400 back to the client. 35 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:19.280 And we sign off on this thing. 36 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:21.460 It takes a week or two to go back and forth. 37 00:01:21.460 --> 00:01:22.760 And finally we lock in, okay, cool. 38 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:24.720 They're gonna give us all this money, you know, 39 00:01:24.720 --> 00:01:28.160 50% upfront, whether it's like 30%, then 30%, 40 00:01:28.660 --> 00:01:31.120 then whatever, 40% of the budget. 41 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:32.420 We don't do any of that. 42 00:01:32.420 --> 00:01:34.920 We create like a unit of sales. 43 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.200 So we say, hey, there's a two week thing. 44 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:38.560 It's gonna cost X. 45 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:40.280 And then to make everybody agree to that, 46 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.960 like we have the client pay the whole 100% upfront. 47 00:01:42.960 --> 00:01:44.400 So they pay for it right up front. 48 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.760 They buy those two weeks from us. 49 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.600 And then we essentially buy those two weeks from you guys, 50 00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:50.800 whoever's doing the work. 51 00:01:50.800 --> 00:01:52.940 So it creates like a nice unit of measure 52 00:01:52.940 --> 00:01:56.500 as far as how we're going to all speak the same language, 53 00:01:56.500 --> 00:01:58.700 because there's different dollar amounts and all that. 54 00:01:58.700 --> 00:02:00.140 But if we talk about weeks, 55 00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:01.660 the clients know how much that week is. 56 00:02:01.660 --> 00:02:02.500 You guys know which week. 57 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:05.380 And we all kind of know what's possible in a week. 58 00:02:05.380 --> 00:02:07.260 And so that's really around like sort of the appetite 59 00:02:07.260 --> 00:02:09.460 and why the appetite's important. 60 00:02:09.460 --> 00:02:11.140 The framing process is really important. 61 00:02:11.140 --> 00:02:12.180 We've been learning from Ryan. 62 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:13.620 There's other training on that. 63 00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:16.140 I'm gonna try to summarize it a little bit here. 64 00:02:16.140 --> 00:02:20.060 But the framing is important because it's, 65 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:23.000 to me, this is the thing we do before we sell the project. 66 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:24.940 We frame something up, we sell it. 67 00:02:24.940 --> 00:02:26.540 And then when we get into it, 68 00:02:26.540 --> 00:02:29.620 that's when we start to do the shaping and breadboarding 69 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:32.100 and we get mockups and prototypes. 70 00:02:32.100 --> 00:02:32.940 So that's kind of really 71 00:02:32.940 --> 00:02:35.220 on that uphill part of the project. 72 00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:37.100 But framing is what happens before we sell it. 73 00:02:37.100 --> 00:02:39.300 And we don't necessarily do any work. 74 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:40.660 There's some work, but to me, 75 00:02:40.660 --> 00:02:43.540 it's like potentially an hour or two. 76 00:02:43.540 --> 00:02:45.500 It's one meeting with a client, 77 00:02:45.500 --> 00:02:47.820 maybe framing it up into a document, 78 00:02:47.820 --> 00:02:50.160 sending it to the client to confirm if this is correct. 79 00:02:50.160 --> 00:02:51.360 Enough for them to say yes 80 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.940 and them to agree to do the project. 81 00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:56.220 So things that are not part of framing, 82 00:02:56.220 --> 00:02:58.380 like necessarily building out a task grid, 83 00:02:58.380 --> 00:02:59.980 breadboarding, mockups. 84 00:02:59.980 --> 00:03:01.060 You can do those things 85 00:03:01.060 --> 00:03:03.460 if you think it's gonna help make it more concrete. 86 00:03:03.460 --> 00:03:04.980 But really this framing piece is really 87 00:03:04.980 --> 00:03:06.840 like the part before we do the work. 88 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:07.820 It's just kind of saying, 89 00:03:07.820 --> 00:03:09.300 hey, I think there's a problem here. 90 00:03:09.300 --> 00:03:10.340 Here's kind of what the appetite, 91 00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:11.820 here's what we think it's gonna cost. 92 00:03:11.820 --> 00:03:12.740 Do you want us to go work on it? 93 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:15.340 Because the shaping is really where it's going 94 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:17.060 to get really much more clear. 95 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:19.900 And as you guys know, the shaping takes a lot of work. 96 00:03:19.900 --> 00:03:21.900 Like it is multiple hours sessions, 97 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:24.140 either with the clients or with us internally. 98 00:03:24.140 --> 00:03:26.660 It's typically doing it in pairs. 99 00:03:26.660 --> 00:03:29.040 And there's a lot of work that goes into that piece of it. 100 00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:32.100 And so that's kind of how we would kind of distinguish 101 00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:33.280 between framing and shaping. 102 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:35.900 And we didn't do framing until recently. 103 00:03:35.900 --> 00:03:37.820 And to me, this is sort of the magic piece 104 00:03:37.820 --> 00:03:40.100 because once we figured out how much work 105 00:03:40.100 --> 00:03:42.260 shaping actually is with the breadboarding 106 00:03:42.260 --> 00:03:46.180 and do the sketches and building out a task grid, 107 00:03:46.180 --> 00:03:47.820 figured out how much work all that is, 108 00:03:47.820 --> 00:03:49.220 we can't do all of that work. 109 00:03:49.220 --> 00:03:50.780 Because that really is a good, 110 00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:55.100 it's a 25% to third of the entire project 111 00:03:55.100 --> 00:03:57.020 is doing the shaping and the breadboarding. 112 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:58.740 You get really deep into it. 113 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:01.940 And so we're gonna keep that as sort of inside the project 114 00:04:01.940 --> 00:04:03.980 post payment, right? 115 00:04:03.980 --> 00:04:04.820 So let me jump in. 116 00:04:04.820 --> 00:04:06.180 I'm gonna share a couple of slides here. 117 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:08.260 We'll see how this works here. 118 00:04:08.260 --> 00:04:10.300 Can I, let's make this a little bigger. 119 00:04:12.700 --> 00:04:13.520 Sorry. 120 00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:17.040 All right. 121 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:18.800 Why? 122 00:04:19.640 --> 00:04:20.480 Nope. 123 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:21.320 Standby. 124 00:04:21.320 --> 00:04:22.760 We'll edit all this out. 125 00:04:22.760 --> 00:04:25.240 I was getting fancy with the settings earlier. 126 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:28.240 Oh, yeah, I'll just do that. 127 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:29.080 Perfect. 128 00:04:29.080 --> 00:04:29.920 Okay. 129 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:32.400 So this, I love this quote. 130 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:34.160 It's like, Ryan said this in one of our talks, 131 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.320 that framing is not about deciding the solution. 132 00:04:36.320 --> 00:04:38.000 It's very specific about that. 133 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.600 We're just defining the situation 134 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:42.840 and then we can decide what solution to look, 135 00:04:42.840 --> 00:04:45.560 decide what kind of solution we should be looking for. 136 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:47.840 So we're figuring out things like, 137 00:04:47.840 --> 00:04:49.640 what's actually happening? 138 00:04:49.640 --> 00:04:52.280 Where's the friction or the frustration? 139 00:04:52.280 --> 00:04:54.720 Like, why is this worth solving? 140 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.120 And I actually have a list here at the bottom. 141 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.320 I'll share this in the notes and stuff, but. 142 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.080 here's some really good questions we'll get into 143 00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:04.440 that we can be asking. 144 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:07.520 And so this is very, it's just being curious. 145 00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:10.800 If you can summarize it down to being, 146 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.360 it's not skeptical, it's being curious with the problem 147 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:16.920 and saying, okay, why is this an issue? 148 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.360 Okay, great, why now? 149 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.420 Why, okay, you've had this frustration, 150 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:24.080 you're using a spreadsheet for this particular task, 151 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:25.680 what's wrong with the spreadsheet? 152 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:26.760 Like why, oh, well, 153 00:05:26.760 --> 00:05:28.200 because sometimes the data's inaccurate. 154 00:05:28.200 --> 00:05:30.320 Okay, so there's some, you know, 155 00:05:30.320 --> 00:05:32.240 actually, okay, why does that data get inaccurate? 156 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.360 Oh, because people are manually entering it. 157 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:35.560 Okay, you know, you can keep, 158 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.860 it's basically just asking, being really curious 159 00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:39.640 and asking deeper, deeper questions 160 00:05:39.640 --> 00:05:42.660 to get to the why behind this. 161 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:45.900 Obviously, like a bad result of this would be like, 162 00:05:45.900 --> 00:05:48.000 you know, the framing is not like, 163 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.160 we don't have a mobile app, we need a mobile app. 164 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.440 No, you know, we need a, the frame, 165 00:05:54.440 --> 00:05:55.760 the problem with that would be, 166 00:05:55.760 --> 00:05:59.240 hey, we have, you know, people in the field 167 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:01.200 and the website isn't reliable, 168 00:06:01.200 --> 00:06:03.200 we need an app that integrates with a camera 169 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:04.960 and a thing and a barcode scanner. 170 00:06:04.960 --> 00:06:07.560 It's like, you know, to kind of explain the problem, 171 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.240 we don't really go to like the solution of what it is. 172 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:11.840 That would be something we do in the breadboarding 173 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:13.800 is to figure that piece out. 174 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:15.320 I mentioned this as well, 175 00:06:15.320 --> 00:06:17.860 why it's important we build by the week. 176 00:06:17.860 --> 00:06:19.720 And so that's what we wanna figure out, 177 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:21.700 how much time is the client, 178 00:06:21.700 --> 00:06:23.480 how much does the client want to spend 179 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:25.200 and how much time do you think it's gonna take? 180 00:06:25.640 --> 00:06:28.160 So those two kind of pieces that we need to keep, 181 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.680 you know, in sync as a team between the client 182 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.640 and that's where we don't want to have this kind of 183 00:06:34.640 --> 00:06:37.560 extra layer of sort of like the old school, 184 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:39.080 like management layer, 185 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:40.760 where we're the ones talking to the client 186 00:06:40.760 --> 00:06:43.120 and then we'll come back and we'll talk to the person 187 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:44.080 doing the work. 188 00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:46.320 No, you're the builder, we put everybody in the room 189 00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:48.760 and we like figure out what it is. 190 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:52.440 And so, you know, if we get the framing wrong, obviously, 191 00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:54.160 and we need to, 192 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.520 the framing is gonna be too vague for some clients, right? 193 00:06:57.520 --> 00:06:59.560 Because clients want to kind of like see the thing, 194 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:00.840 they wanna see the mockups, 195 00:07:00.840 --> 00:07:02.560 they wanna see, you know, 196 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.000 the beautiful kind of end product 197 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.320 of what it's gonna look like 198 00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:08.040 and they'll kind of buy into it. 199 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.720 But we have to keep it back to the framing 200 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.000 and what is the framing we agree to? 201 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:13.440 That's the only thing we have, you know, 202 00:07:13.440 --> 00:07:15.600 sort of contractually like agreed to 203 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.240 is the framing piece of it. 204 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.120 The breadboarding, the shaping and the actual work itself 205 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.000 is very flexible within, 206 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:23.880 as long as we stick to kind of the frame. 207 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:25.040 So getting it wrong, obviously, 208 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.360 we can create scope problems later. 209 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:28.520 And so that's not the optional way, 210 00:07:28.520 --> 00:07:31.080 it's basically how we kick off the whole process. 211 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:33.160 So this is actually not correct, 212 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:36.280 but if we would start with a project, 213 00:07:36.280 --> 00:07:38.080 hey, inbox clients on a meeting, 214 00:07:38.080 --> 00:07:39.760 they say, hey, great, I have this idea, 215 00:07:39.760 --> 00:07:40.880 I want to do this. 216 00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:43.000 Okay, that's immediately kind of a cue 217 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.360 to start making a quick little framing doc for this. 218 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.600 And what I do is if we're in a brand new fig jam, 219 00:07:50.440 --> 00:07:53.880 what I've been doing is something Ryan showed us as well, 220 00:07:53.880 --> 00:07:56.040 just come up with three little sections. 221 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.720 It's the problem and it's the outcome. 222 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:03.040 And then we also just list down here, 223 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.280 what is it not going to be? 224 00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:08.120 And those are kind of our three little buckets. 225 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:09.840 And so when we start, 226 00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:13.400 I typically do this in real time on the call with the client 227 00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:15.960 because all of a sudden it gives us all something visual 228 00:08:15.960 --> 00:08:18.320 to look at because we have clients 229 00:08:18.320 --> 00:08:20.320 where there's two or three people on the call 230 00:08:20.320 --> 00:08:21.960 and someone says, you know what I've been thinking 231 00:08:21.960 --> 00:08:24.680 and like, this has really been a problem over here. 232 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:26.680 I immediately pull up fig jam 233 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.120 and also just a completely blank, empty, white fig jam. 234 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:31.440 Unless you guys are already in the meeting 235 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:33.200 and you're already looking at some stuff in fig jam, 236 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:34.600 just pull it off to the side. 237 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:36.640 But sometimes just like a clean blank slate 238 00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:39.840 is very refreshing for everybody's brains. 239 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:40.760 So you can pull in here 240 00:08:40.760 --> 00:08:42.320 and you can start asking those questions. 241 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:43.840 Okay, like, why is this a problem right now? 242 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.840 Oh, well, maybe like we just hired 20 new salespeople. 243 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:51.840 Okay, well, that's interesting. 244 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:54.920 So that's more of a note of sort of the background 245 00:08:54.920 --> 00:08:56.840 and the context of this. 246 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:58.840 Why is that really a problem? 247 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.880 Oh, well, we have new employees 248 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:07.880 like who find the current system hard to use. 249 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.240 Okay, so they may say that, we may note that. 250 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:12.080 It's not really a problem. 251 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:13.640 It's kind of a interesting note, 252 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:15.280 because again, what's hard to use? 253 00:09:15.280 --> 00:09:17.160 Oh, well, the buttons are too small. 254 00:09:17.160 --> 00:09:19.360 Oh, well, this, we keep dragging down to like, 255 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:20.200 what's really the thing? 256 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:21.560 Oh, well, actually, it's when they hit this button, 257 00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:24.080 it doesn't actually do the thing they want it to do. 258 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.280 Okay, so there's like missing piece in the process. 259 00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:28.240 We kind of keep asking really good questions. 260 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:29.480 This can be done in a few minutes. 261 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:30.600 This is not hard. 262 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.280 So what we need over here is like an easy to use system 263 00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:40.280 for new employees to quickly get X report 264 00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:45.720 out of the system or whatever the tool is. 265 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:46.560 You guys get the idea. 266 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:47.440 And then what it's not is like, 267 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:48.400 well, we're not changing this. 268 00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:49.240 We're not changing that. 269 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.520 We're not, whatever, adding all these things. 270 00:09:51.520 --> 00:09:56.080 This is helpful to kind of use like kind of a carving knife 271 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.480 to like cut out the things that are not going to be a part 272 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:00.320 of this project. 273 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:02.560 And so this is the little tool I would use, 274 00:10:02.560 --> 00:10:04.240 like kind of when we have that, 275 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:07.920 I like to capture it right in the call with the client live, 276 00:10:07.920 --> 00:10:10.080 or if it's something, you know, 277 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:11.440 just so we initially kind of get to see, 278 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:13.720 okay, there's generally a thing here that looks like that. 279 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.420 Is that something you guys would like us to go frame up? 280 00:10:16.420 --> 00:10:18.300 Then that could be something we do after the call, 281 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.260 or we sync up, you know, with, you know, 282 00:10:20.260 --> 00:10:23.020 one or two of us on the team and try to figure out, 283 00:10:23.020 --> 00:10:24.960 okay, is this a one week appetite, two week? 284 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:26.440 And I would actually, you know, 285 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:28.960 I've been putting like the title, this is, you know, 286 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:32.800 fix, you know, broken, you know, onboarding, you know, 287 00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:35.120 process for X or whatever. 288 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:37.640 And I would just put in here, you know, 289 00:10:37.640 --> 00:10:38.480 what do you guys think? 290 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.120 Like, is that, is it like a two week problem? 291 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:42.180 Cause you, and as you guys do this, 292 00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:43.400 you'll kind of be looking at it 293 00:10:43.400 --> 00:10:46.100 and kind of have some ideas of what the solution might be. 294 00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:47.480 But this would be a good time to say like, 295 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.360 is this a one week, you know, two, three, four, 296 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.880 just having it on there and being a little bit, 297 00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:54.080 like showing that to the clients 298 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.080 that kind of know what we're talking about. 299 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:59.200 That sometimes helps change the whole frame 300 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.480 as we've learned with Ryan is like 301 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.520 shifting the appetite down to one week, 302 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:06.080 all of a sudden, like, you know, 303 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.960 it kind of gives the people who are building it, right. 304 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:11.440 And the people who want the thing built, 305 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:12.280 much more clarity. 306 00:11:12.280 --> 00:11:13.600 So there's people paying for the thing 307 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:15.080 and there's people building the thing. 308 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:16.400 We get a lot more clarity. 309 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:18.640 If you only have a week, I have to do something simple. 310 00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:19.920 I'm going to change the side of the buttons 311 00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:21.600 and add a couple of things here. 312 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:22.800 You got me, give me four weeks. 313 00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:25.080 Like, yeah, we're adding all kinds of new stuff, 314 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:26.040 you know, to it. 315 00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:28.520 And then we can solve a much bigger problem for four weeks 316 00:11:28.520 --> 00:11:29.680 or solve it very differently. 317 00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:33.440 So it's helpful to have that upfront, even if it's wrong, 318 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.080 you know, just put like, 319 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.760 even like, hey, I think it's one or two weeks. 320 00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:38.120 Yeah, that sounds about right. 321 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:38.960 Cool. 322 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:40.640 This would be a good starting point 323 00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:42.880 to go like kind of capture everything 324 00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.280 on the call live with the client. 325 00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:45.600 And then this could be something we turn 326 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.040 into something more of a presentation. 327 00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:49.840 So we'll get into that in a minute. 328 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.680 So we frame it first to talk about sketching it. 329 00:11:52.680 --> 00:11:53.520 Yeah. 330 00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:54.360 Tate off all that. 331 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.840 We just went through that. 332 00:11:56.640 --> 00:11:58.920 And so we don't want to like mix the shaping 333 00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:01.400 into the framing doc, keeping it very, very simple. 334 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:02.400 I know we've been experimenting 335 00:12:02.400 --> 00:12:04.080 with different templates and stuff. 336 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.480 I'll show you some that I think are working well here 337 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.240 and just really taking basically this same idea, 338 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.760 maybe throwing the appetite as another section. 339 00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:16.240 And then this really, those four sections just in that. 340 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.120 And that's what, when I say like a framing doc, 341 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.800 that's what we would call like our Notion project docs. 342 00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:24.600 So when you go into Notion, you look up a project, 343 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:26.880 that first page that shows up. 344 00:12:26.880 --> 00:12:28.320 If you want to have additional stuff, 345 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:29.680 that's where you can create sub pages 346 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:31.120 and organize it however you want. 347 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.880 But that's typically what we would share with the clients 348 00:12:33.880 --> 00:12:36.040 because it's got the appetite there. 349 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:37.880 It gives people sort of that high level overview 350 00:12:37.880 --> 00:12:39.240 of what this thing is. 351 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.640 And you can kind of add tasks and sub pages 352 00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:43.720 and things to it from there as well. 353 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.160 So I'm keep going down here. 354 00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:48.120 I said some red flags, right? 355 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:48.960 Red flags. 356 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.080 We need a mobile app. 357 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:50.920 Why is that bad? 358 00:12:50.920 --> 00:12:52.120 Well, that's a solution. 359 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.960 It's not even, it's barely even 360 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.560 in the shaping piece of it, right? 361 00:12:57.560 --> 00:13:00.560 It's more just some solution. 362 00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:03.320 And the problem is that you'll find this, 363 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:04.600 the more clients you work with, 364 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:06.440 the more you'll find that the clients 365 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:08.360 love talking solutions, right? 366 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:10.720 It's actually much easier to talk solutions 367 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.800 because it's tangible. 368 00:13:11.800 --> 00:13:14.280 It's like, oh, well, this competitor has a mobile app. 369 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:15.200 I want a mobile app. 370 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:16.200 Or they have this feature. 371 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.280 I want this feature. 372 00:13:17.280 --> 00:13:19.160 They just talk about, let's just go straight to this. 373 00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:20.840 Or I saw this in another app 374 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.000 and I want it to be like Facebook 375 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:24.880 and I want it to do X. 376 00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:26.520 So kind of backing out of that 377 00:13:26.520 --> 00:13:29.880 and being sort of a good red flag is like, 378 00:13:29.880 --> 00:13:31.160 that's a solution, cool. 379 00:13:31.160 --> 00:13:33.400 Let's try to get to why they think the mobile app. 380 00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:37.120 So questioning, again, be curious about why the mobile app. 381 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.280 Could it be a mobile website, for example? 382 00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:43.080 Could we just make the current app, web app responsive? 383 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.960 Like there's a lot of ways to get there. 384 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.680 Also, you immediately hear someone, 385 00:13:47.680 --> 00:13:49.400 if you're building it, you guys hear, 386 00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:50.720 oh, we need a mobile app. 387 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.040 Alarms of like multiple six-week projects 388 00:13:54.040 --> 00:13:55.640 just went off in our brain 389 00:13:55.640 --> 00:13:58.440 or one very small six-week project. 390 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.240 So you can say, hey, yeah, we can talk mobile apps. 391 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.800 However, like you're talking multiple weeks, 392 00:14:02.800 --> 00:14:05.760 six weeks, maybe two six-week cycles, 393 00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:06.880 whatever to get a mobile app. 394 00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:08.720 So what I wanna do is try and save you 395 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.680 as much money and time as well. 396 00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:13.160 They may not wanna wait two or three months 397 00:14:13.160 --> 00:14:15.160 to solve this problem. 398 00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:17.480 They just thought mobile app might be the solution, right? 399 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:19.640 So we're kind of like helping them like, cool, yeah. 400 00:14:19.640 --> 00:14:21.240 I don't know if you need a mobile app, 401 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.480 but what if we got a two-week responsive version 402 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:24.600 of the web app? 403 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.480 Oh, okay, yeah, that's actually all we need 404 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.160 because we're kind of getting back to the question of it, 405 00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:33.440 of why are we doing this and kind of back to that problem. 406 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:35.760 So, and like general stuff, right? 407 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:38.080 The user said this important 408 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:41.000 or these three people came into a support desk 409 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:42.840 and complained about this problem. 410 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.200 That's like not a problem of that. 411 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:47.080 We wouldn't put that in the problem bucket of like, 412 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.240 oh, there's been some support requests. 413 00:14:49.880 --> 00:14:52.120 Noted, like you have people, 414 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.760 some of your users thought this was a problem. 415 00:14:55.760 --> 00:14:57.760 You kind of have to get deeper into it. 416 00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:00.000 So, and then like getting. 417 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.200 into wireframes, I say this, we did this literally yesterday with a client. 418 00:15:04.260 --> 00:15:07.680 And sometimes wireframes are helpful or, or V zero mockups. 419 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.140 It can be helpful just to help have the client get their thoughts out on 420 00:15:11.140 --> 00:15:12.700 paper of what they're looking for. 421 00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:16.560 But you shouldn't be doing wireframing in the steps. 422 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.800 Worst case you're, you're over here and you're like, cool. 423 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:23.600 So if we had like a thing with like a list, like, would this be cool like that? 424 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.220 But this is really getting into shaping or just something simple like that. 425 00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:29.140 And Hey, when you click this, like this changes. 426 00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:29.640 Okay, cool. 427 00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:30.000 Great. 428 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:33.160 Again, to me, that's noted, delete it. 429 00:15:33.380 --> 00:15:35.480 Like that was just, it was just for a quick illustration, just 430 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:37.280 to, just to help communicate something. 431 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:42.160 It's not like this now goes into the official, you know, notion documents. 432 00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:44.360 And then when it comes back, it's like, well, why is the list on the 433 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:47.720 left and not on the right, or why is it a dropdown versus menu? 434 00:15:48.280 --> 00:15:50.640 You just want to give yourselves like a lot of flexibility. 435 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:52.920 Later in the shaping process. 436 00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:55.720 We don't know if, if that list is necessarily the right 437 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:57.800 solution at the framing stage. 438 00:15:57.800 --> 00:16:00.400 We're going to know it once we get deep into breadboarding and shaping 439 00:16:00.400 --> 00:16:02.040 and getting really close to the problem. 440 00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:06.880 So this is, I think from shape ups is we don't ask how long will this take? 441 00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:09.120 We ask like, how much time are we willing to spend? 442 00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:11.080 That's from the book. 443 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.640 It's kind of reframing this thing of like, not, Oh, I, it's going to 444 00:16:14.640 --> 00:16:16.560 take two weeks or it's going to take four. 445 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.960 You kind of start with like, how big a problem is this? 446 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:24.040 Cause that kind of helps dial the level of intensity on this 447 00:16:24.040 --> 00:16:27.040 problem piece right here is like, is this a two week problem? 448 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:31.360 Is this a, you know, look, Oh, if we solve this new feature, like I'd put 449 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:35.160 six weeks, I'd bet six weeks worth of money and time on that is because 450 00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:37.800 it's just like, so critical to our users that we get this right. 451 00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:41.880 Or most of the cases, it's like, it's one, two, three, four weeks, 452 00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:44.200 something in there, some variation. 453 00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:48.480 So again, you guys know this appetite shapes, the solution, it can 454 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.720 help give you guys like the frame of like what to put, put in there. 455 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.440 And it brings it back to a business decision, not technical because once 456 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.280 you go to giant project requirement docs and all that stuff, it gets so 457 00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:03.760 technical, so fast now there's nothing for the clients to like adjust. 458 00:17:03.760 --> 00:17:05.440 They, they kind of feel out of control with it. 459 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.760 And they don't, it just feels like we could just be making stuff up or 460 00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:12.520 we're having a very tightly technical conversation about scope because we 461 00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:16.119 want to use this one tech stack and we get used, it gets super, I mean, some 462 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.480 of these project requirements, and I know this because like we did some of 463 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.839 these in, you know, early on in our, in our agency and you guys have probably 464 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:27.440 seen some of these that could be 10, 20 pages worth of notes and details. 465 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.640 And the problem is you have to actually like make sure all 466 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:30.840 that stuff actually happens. 467 00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:34.880 So it's, it's quite a, a nightmare mentioned the framing for communication, 468 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:36.720 just helping them get clarity, right? 469 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.120 Like that's the main thing that shaping and framing and all this 470 00:17:40.120 --> 00:17:42.040 stuff is, is just bringing clarity. 471 00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:46.000 When we're doing client communication, it's like, Hey, they had this idea. 472 00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:51.080 We're now like getting really clear about it because most of the founders 473 00:17:51.080 --> 00:17:54.000 and clients we're working with, they are visionaries and they're going to have 474 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:58.480 ideas in their drive, in the shower, wherever, and they're going to go from 475 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.480 like, Hey, I had this idea to, can you guys go build it? 476 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.280 And the framing piece is just like, cool. 477 00:18:04.280 --> 00:18:06.880 Let's like really think about and talk about this idea. 478 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:09.320 Like, why, why do you get what you had this idea? 479 00:18:09.320 --> 00:18:13.360 Clearly there's a problem behind the idea of why you thought 480 00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:14.640 this would be worth bringing up. 481 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.000 Cause like, cause then again, they probably had an idea for a solution. 482 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.520 Like, oh, cool. 483 00:18:18.520 --> 00:18:19.600 We're going to build a mobile app. 484 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:21.160 That's the coolest thing in it. 485 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.200 And visionaries and founders typically like the kind of like, there's this 486 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.560 all and wonder of their most amazing idea. 487 00:18:28.600 --> 00:18:29.040 Right. 488 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:30.320 I just start with everything. 489 00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:31.720 Like, it's probably a terrible idea. 490 00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:32.080 Right. 491 00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:36.120 Just assume it's the worst idea and just move, kind of reset it. 492 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.840 You don't want to say that, but just like, you kind of want to have this skeptical 493 00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:41.720 view of like, okay, that's one idea. 494 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.400 Like that's one way to go about it. 495 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:48.880 But kind of get back to like, what's the real thing of why this is important? 496 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:50.560 Cause they kind of went straight to solution. 497 00:18:50.560 --> 00:18:55.360 So there's a bunch of question mark, unknown, you know, problems that are 498 00:18:55.360 --> 00:18:57.720 sitting behind the scenes that they haven't explained to you. 499 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:01.080 So that's once we can kind of get the problem, why is this important? 500 00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:04.800 Oh, well, and then, and if you keep going, why, like you can keep asking 501 00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:06.960 why over and over again, like, but why? 502 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:07.600 Like, but why? 503 00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:09.480 Like keep, keep going deeper, deeper, deeper. 504 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.880 And it's going to get something very tangible. 505 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.880 Like, well, this is like causing us to lose revenue over here because we don't 506 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.640 know this number in this report very well. 507 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.880 And if we knew that number, it would help our business. 508 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.240 Cause now we can get more profitable, which means we're going to be around 509 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.760 longer, which means we can pay our team better, you know, et cetera. 510 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:30.040 So you really get down to like the, almost the more of the heart, like 511 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:33.080 emotion of it, which is kind of funny to think of in technical terms. 512 00:19:33.080 --> 00:19:36.800 But there's for these vision, for the, these founders specifically, there's 513 00:19:36.800 --> 00:19:38.600 something like very deep in there. 514 00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:40.040 That's motivating them typically. 515 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:45.160 So don't, I didn't mean to sound like we're dismissing this like kind of idea 516 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.800 because there's something they just haven't thought about it. 517 00:19:47.800 --> 00:19:52.760 There's almost like a therapist going layers and layers deep in this, like 518 00:19:52.800 --> 00:19:54.960 kind of asking them, like, why is that important? 519 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:56.560 Like, how does that affect the business? 520 00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.240 Those questions we will have at the end. 521 00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:59.360 I'll I'll put those there. 522 00:19:59.760 --> 00:19:59.960 Okay. 523 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.980 tools, FigJam, obviously we, we love to, that we kind of standardize on FigJam. 524 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:06.360 It's easier, everybody should have an account and we can 525 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.840 share things much more easily. 526 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:13.720 The shape up GPT, this training, all of Ryan's training, all of like shape, 527 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.640 the entire book of shape up a lot of Ryan's blog posts, all preloaded 528 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.800 into this shape up GPT, so you could actually take us a piece like this. 529 00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.640 And let me bring this back here real quick. 530 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:26.560 There we go. 531 00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:28.720 Let's pull it up real quick. 532 00:20:28.820 --> 00:20:32.260 So you guys can see this. 533 00:20:33.560 --> 00:20:33.920 Cool. 534 00:20:36.820 --> 00:20:37.960 And let's do that. 535 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:38.280 Cool. 536 00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:41.220 So you could, this is a very bad example. 537 00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:43.220 I may take one that we did. 538 00:20:43.620 --> 00:20:46.200 Let me, let me do a slightly different one. 539 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:47.940 I'm trying to do this a little bit live with you guys. 540 00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:50.040 So we did this one for Kings loop yesterday. 541 00:20:50.860 --> 00:20:51.820 So let's just go in here. 542 00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:52.540 I'm just going to this. 543 00:20:52.580 --> 00:20:56.420 So there's this project and they had this, and I'm just going to 544 00:20:56.600 --> 00:20:59.360 screenshot this and say, help me. 545 00:21:00.080 --> 00:21:03.400 Uh, create a framing doc for this. 546 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:05.600 And I would just also say like who the client is. 547 00:21:05.600 --> 00:21:07.760 Cause we do load in like all that. 548 00:21:08.120 --> 00:21:12.040 So it will sit there and it'll build out those different process. 549 00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:14.540 Obviously I've given it very little context. 550 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.680 So the more we can, we can create here, I give it more. 551 00:21:19.040 --> 00:21:21.020 So it's actually, it's pulling a bunch of random stuff. 552 00:21:21.020 --> 00:21:21.920 Like it's perfect. 553 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.640 It just hallucinated on this first demo, but okay. 554 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:25.980 Okay. 555 00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:28.300 Now it's kind of, it kind of is generally sticking. 556 00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:30.660 It's, it's combining a few different projects here. 557 00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:31.860 I'm wondering why it did that. 558 00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:33.700 Okay. 559 00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:38.180 It's using some other old data for that, but you, you, you more context to give it. 560 00:21:38.180 --> 00:21:42.080 What I would typically do is build it out in notion, write it long form and 561 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:46.720 then bring that plus the, maybe the, the, the big jam piece into it. 562 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:47.900 And just get it clarified. 563 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:50.900 I could even just tell it like, Hey, you know, don't, don't bring in other 564 00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:54.860 projects, but it's part of the problem is it knows so much about all the other 565 00:21:54.860 --> 00:21:58.340 tangential like projects that Kingsley is working on that it's trying to be helpful. 566 00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:02.600 So framing docs, notion template, obviously that's very helpful. 567 00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:04.680 And then this is it. 568 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:04.800 Yeah. 569 00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:07.080 I think the questions are the most helpful, you know, what's 570 00:22:07.080 --> 00:22:08.600 not working the way it should. 571 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:13.080 These are just helpful questions to have kind of on a printed out, like next to 572 00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:18.520 your computer when these happen, but really it always boils down to like different 573 00:22:18.520 --> 00:22:20.680 angles of figuring out the same thing. 574 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:27.220 So like also great questions when, if you're not a super social person, you have 575 00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:30.460 questions, like just being curious is like the most interesting thing. 576 00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:34.340 If you're at, in a social setting and you just want to like be engaging with people, 577 00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:36.460 like just ask questions, be curious about their thing. 578 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:39.560 Like, you know, Oh, this person's getting their pilot's license. 579 00:22:39.580 --> 00:22:40.300 That's amazing. 580 00:22:40.300 --> 00:22:41.820 Like, why, why are they doing that? 581 00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:42.400 Why now? 582 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.180 Like what, what made you think of doing this? 583 00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:46.860 Like just asking really good questions makes you a pretty 584 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:48.620 awesome human being in general. 585 00:22:48.620 --> 00:22:51.640 So this is, some of this stuff is like technical, but others are just like, 586 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.520 yeah, just, this is how humans communicate well, as we kind of are curious. 587 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.160 And so just defining things like, yeah. 588 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:00.360 So what's the real friction, right? 589 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.720 Obviously you're figuring out what's the pain behind it. 590 00:23:03.040 --> 00:23:03.880 Why now? 591 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:04.880 Like, did something change? 592 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.560 Like, Oh, we just hired these, you know, employees or we just hired a new sales 593 00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:10.520 manager and now this has become a problem. 594 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:12.240 Who feels the pain the most? 595 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:13.760 Is this like a user thing client? 596 00:23:13.760 --> 00:23:15.200 Is it the team behind it? 597 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:16.280 Who's running it? 598 00:23:16.780 --> 00:23:19.300 You know, what are they doing today? 599 00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:21.180 And like, you know, how does it fail? 600 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:23.060 Cause like, they're probably making it work. 601 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:26.600 You know, we have very pretty successful clients we're working with right now. 602 00:23:26.600 --> 00:23:30.340 Like they're not, this is not like holding back their entire business. 603 00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:33.060 They're, they're somehow making this work somehow today. 604 00:23:33.060 --> 00:23:33.240 Okay. 605 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.940 I'm using a spreadsheet and we have this very, you know, this terrible process, 606 00:23:36.940 --> 00:23:38.460 but it, you know, kind of works actually. 607 00:23:38.980 --> 00:23:42.420 If we sold this, like, well, what would look different or feel different? 608 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:44.060 Is this one problem? 609 00:23:44.060 --> 00:23:45.640 Or is there like lots of little problems? 610 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:50.260 This is a great thing being able to, this is just a skill we'll have to learn by 611 00:23:50.260 --> 00:23:54.140 doing it a lot is like people will come in with their different problems. 612 00:23:54.260 --> 00:23:58.820 And I did this yesterday is like, see, there was, we were talking about one 613 00:23:58.820 --> 00:24:03.040 giant thing and then I kind of pulled it into three different projects like that. 614 00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:08.060 So that does help just to, just to kind of zoom out a bit and I would take it 615 00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:09.220 like this and be like, okay, yeah. 616 00:24:09.220 --> 00:24:11.780 Like, she sounds like you, you have something else going on here too. 617 00:24:11.780 --> 00:24:13.020 Let's talk about that real quick. 618 00:24:13.280 --> 00:24:16.680 And I would just say like, oh, we also need to like fix the, you know, broken 619 00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:20.400 export, you know, report thing or whatever, and then just start to 620 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.360 reframe this one up as a new project. 621 00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:25.440 Also, you know, you're like, yeah, that when we're done with this, like 622 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.320 maybe that's two weeks, then you can kind of zoom out and be like, you 623 00:24:27.320 --> 00:24:28.160 know what, that's interesting. 624 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:29.160 Cause that's like two weeks. 625 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:29.560 That's two weeks. 626 00:24:29.560 --> 00:24:32.240 So we're looking at like four weeks to kind of get both, which is one of 627 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:33.680 these more important than the other. 628 00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:37.520 Cause now you're kind of like framing the frames and projects. 629 00:24:37.520 --> 00:24:37.880 Right. 630 00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:38.520 Like, cool. 631 00:24:38.520 --> 00:24:40.320 Like, okay, actually this one's more important. 632 00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:41.120 I would just do this. 633 00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:41.560 Like, cool. 634 00:24:41.560 --> 00:24:42.480 Let's put that at the front. 635 00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:42.940 Cool. 636 00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:46.140 So if we did this first for two weeks and we came to that, does that sound good? 637 00:24:46.620 --> 00:24:47.980 Yeah, actually that that's really good. 638 00:24:48.300 --> 00:24:50.620 Then they may start talking immediately about a third project. 639 00:24:50.620 --> 00:24:50.900 Right. 640 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:53.180 Cause this is some, some of these things, like once you get on this process, 641 00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:55.860 they're like, well, let me share everything that's painful about my app 642 00:24:55.860 --> 00:25:00.020 right now with you kind of get on a roll and this doesn't have to take long. 643 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.360 This is not a, there's shaping meetings, which are like, To me, 90 minutes to 644 00:25:04.360 --> 00:25:06.200 three hours, like it's, they're pretty long. 645 00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:10.080 These are, could be done on a 30 minute check-in call with a client 646 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:11.960 and definitely no more than an hour. 647 00:25:12.040 --> 00:25:14.940 This does not need to take long to do. 648 00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:19.160 So I was just saying, yeah, this one problem or bundle of problems, pulling 649 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.680 it apart to like lots of different things is helpful, it's much, much 650 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.200 better to have a one week project here and another one week and another 651 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.100 one week, then to have like a four week mushy, like, I think there's 652 00:25:30.100 --> 00:25:31.760 like four different things going on. 653 00:25:31.760 --> 00:25:33.360 Just pull it into separate things. 654 00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:36.440 Like if we fix the report, fix the onboarding process, then we did this. 655 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:36.640 Okay. 656 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:37.840 Is those three things get done? 657 00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:38.560 That's three weeks. 658 00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:41.080 That's much more clear and easier. 659 00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:43.040 And it's no, there's no cost savings. 660 00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:46.560 I think that's one thing I spent a lot of time with clients recently is 661 00:25:46.560 --> 00:25:49.960 actually explaining that like, because they don't necessarily know how 662 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:51.520 the tech works or how code works. 663 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:55.240 So we ended up spending a lot of time saying like, Hey, so if we do it in 664 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:58.520 three steps like this, it's not three separate projects because then they, 665 00:25:58.600 --> 00:26:01.160 they see like number of projects equals more money. 666 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.800 It's not that it's like, it's going to still take three weeks. 667 00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:05.800 It's just, we're going to do them in bite-sized pieces. 668 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.720 And actually that's, if anything is going to save you money because we 669 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.960 can do this one thing, fix the reports. 670 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:12.960 We're going to do this one thing, fix this other thing. 671 00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:14.880 So that's good bundle of problems. 672 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.760 And then what's not being said, trying to get again, the 673 00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:19.720 questions they're not asking. 674 00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:23.560 And it's typically when it still sounds vague or you don't feel, you haven't 675 00:26:23.560 --> 00:26:28.200 really had this aha moment of like, Oh yeah, no, I totally get it now. 676 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:28.440 Yes. 677 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.160 This has to be something we do next. 678 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:32.680 They haven't got to that root thing. 679 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:36.120 You can keep asking that, like they probably haven't said something yet. 680 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.000 And then any constraints like timing, Oh, we have a launch on two weeks. 681 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.360 We have a, this, like, these are all helpful things to note for context for 682 00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:45.760 that frame, because those are just things to put around. 683 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:47.440 So I think that's it. 684 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.640 You know, this is sort of how our new template is going. 685 00:26:51.040 --> 00:26:54.880 This essentially talking about the problem, just this bullet 686 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.280 points are very good, helpful. 687 00:26:56.280 --> 00:26:57.480 Here should be able to that. 688 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:00.720 Anyone on the team could pick this up on the client's team on our team 689 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.200 can pick this up and know what this is. 690 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.600 And the outcome, again, we're not saying we're going to build a mobile app. 691 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:08.880 We're just the desired outcome of, of, Hey, I need this problem 692 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.240 solved, or when I hit this button, I needed an export that has these 693 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:16.840 three things in it so I can tell this number like measurable things. 694 00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:19.760 Like we're going to take it from five steps to two steps, or we're 695 00:27:19.760 --> 00:27:22.800 going to cut, you know, the number of steps in half we'll see. 696 00:27:22.800 --> 00:27:24.280 Again, we'll have a dashboard. 697 00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:24.480 Okay. 698 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.120 No, we don't have to have a dashboard. 699 00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:28.400 We just need to know somehow you need to know this number. 700 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:29.480 It could be emailed to you. 701 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:30.440 It could be texted to you. 702 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.840 It could be displayed on the dashboard somewhere. 703 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.720 It could be, you know, there's a thousand ways we could get you that number, but 704 00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:40.360 we just need to show like, Hey, the client needs to know this number, this 705 00:27:40.360 --> 00:27:43.720 formula or whatever this thing is, but then not doing just, you know, being 706 00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.560 super clear, like we're not going to do mobile, we're not going to do 707 00:27:46.840 --> 00:27:48.400 any UI redesigned for this. 708 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.520 We're not, you know, just very clear. 709 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.680 And most of the time, once we get to this layer, that's where a lot of 710 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.240 clarity comes from the client, because there's a lot of expectations. 711 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.680 They assume this is like expectation. 712 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:02.600 Can we, our first lesson was on like communication, it's all the same thing. 713 00:28:02.600 --> 00:28:08.000 It's like, they're thinking like this big project we come in with like, Oh no, 714 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.680 it's just, you know, they think it's like an eight or a nine out of 10 size. 715 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:13.080 And we come in with like a three or four. 716 00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:16.080 And then what happens is we get into the project and they have these massive 717 00:28:16.120 --> 00:28:18.560 expectations, and then we're delivering something down here. 718 00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:22.320 And there's just this huge gap that we have to manage now throughout the project. 719 00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:26.160 So the sooner we can be really upfront and be like, kind of give them all the 720 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:31.040 bad news upfront, not having any surprises and being like, so just so you, I want 721 00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:33.840 you to repeat this back to me that you're not going to get a mobile app. 722 00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:34.960 You're not going to get a dashboard. 723 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:35.600 You're not going to get that. 724 00:28:35.600 --> 00:28:36.080 Okay, cool. 725 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:37.720 All super clear on that. 726 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.400 Great. 727 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:39.840 What we are going to get is these things. 728 00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:42.880 And if we just got those things, and then there needs to be a little level 729 00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.760 of trust where we then go into shaping together. 730 00:28:45.760 --> 00:28:47.720 And I think a lot of that can be done with the client. 731 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.520 I've been thinking like a bunch of ways to go now solve this problem and 732 00:28:52.800 --> 00:28:55.760 constantly, like almost at the beginning of every meeting, come back. 733 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:59.240 Hey, just the context is remember this is the problem we're solving. 734 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:00.080 Here's the solution. 735 00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:04.400 If we're in a multi four week project, beginning of every check-in call, we 736 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.560 typically like to do weekly check-ins. 737 00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:11.000 Just bring it up for a second, bring up the pitch doc in notion, really cool. 738 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:13.280 Just remember, here's the three problems we're trying to solve. 739 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:15.040 Here's the desired outcome. 740 00:29:15.280 --> 00:29:17.040 So now you can see kind of where we're at on that. 741 00:29:17.040 --> 00:29:19.120 Now we have this page, we have this thing, we have this piece. 742 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.760 Kind of bring it back to like, you see how we're solving these problems. 743 00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:22.040 Great. 744 00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:22.920 Just kind of bring them back. 745 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.840 Cause guaranteed, like we're in longer projects, you know, a 746 00:29:26.840 --> 00:29:28.120 couple of multi-week projects. 747 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.400 We will forget what we wrote in that framing step. 748 00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:34.520 And the clients have long forgotten all of it. 749 00:29:34.520 --> 00:29:37.920 Like we, they don't even like, they would have to go find that link 750 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:39.240 to notion somewhere in their email. 751 00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:40.720 They're not, they're not going to it. 752 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:43.120 It's not like they're pulling it up every week before the call. 753 00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:43.600 Like, cool. 754 00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:44.120 I remember. 755 00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:48.240 So doing a little bit of this work, assuming just that everybody's very busy 756 00:29:49.280 --> 00:29:53.200 helping in a, in a way you're kind of like framing the call, right. 757 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.800 With like a little bit of like, remember the frame doc cool. 758 00:29:55.800 --> 00:29:59.880 Now, everything we're going to talk about in the next 25 minutes is going to be what 759 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:00.040 we. 760 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.360 be, you know, shaped, you know, where we framed kind of in the first five minutes. 761 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:07.320 So that just gives people boundaries, keeps people like kind of idea of where 762 00:30:07.320 --> 00:30:11.660 this conversation is going to go, because also they may look at that frame doc and 763 00:30:11.660 --> 00:30:13.100 be like, you know what, that actually. 764 00:30:13.580 --> 00:30:15.780 There's actually this new problem that we now see. 765 00:30:15.840 --> 00:30:16.320 Okay, cool. 766 00:30:16.320 --> 00:30:20.220 It's like without FigJam have a little like session where 767 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.100 new problem, new outcome. 768 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:24.780 Is that something you guys think you would want us to work on next month? 769 00:30:25.300 --> 00:30:25.680 Great. 770 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:26.100 Got it. 771 00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:29.080 I'm going to note that we'll, we'll circle back with like, you know, a 772 00:30:29.080 --> 00:30:31.600 frame document for that so you can approve it and pay for it. 773 00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:32.380 And we'll jump into it.