WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.000 Hey everybody, welcome to Wonderful World of Remnant Radio. 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:06.120 In this program, we're talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost. 3 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:07.840 It's going to be an exciting program. 4 00:00:07.840 --> 00:00:11.640 You guys stay tuned. 5 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:12.640 You've heard it before. 6 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:13.920 It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 7 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:17.680 It's a fun and important doctrine within the Christian faith. 8 00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:23.000 Some believe it is a second blessing that happens after conversion, and others see it 9 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.920 as synonymous with conversion. 10 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:25.920 We're going to weigh into that today. 11 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:28.320 We're going to be talking about what Pentecostals think about this issue. 12 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:32.800 We're going to do a deep dive into the text of Scripture itself, kind of pulling through 13 00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:36.720 all of the various verses that mention the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 14 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:40.160 We're going to be talking about the Day of Pentecost, the significance of that, the promise 15 00:00:40.160 --> 00:00:42.480 of the outpouring of the Spirit in the Old Testament. 16 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:46.640 And then we're going to finally conclude with, man, are we arguing on semantics? 17 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.600 Do we generally agree with everything, but we just disagree on words? 18 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:53.160 All that and more we're going to be diving into in this program. 19 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:58.320 But before we do, I want to let you guys know that Remnant Radio is entirely supported by 20 00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:59.320 viewers just like you. 21 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:02.840 And if you want to help us, one of the best things that you can do is hit the subscribe 22 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:07.040 button, like this video, so that we kind of gain up in the algorithms. 23 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:08.360 It's not an Academy Award, folks. 24 00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:09.360 It's a like button. 25 00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:10.440 I'd appreciate it. 26 00:01:10.440 --> 00:01:12.000 Hit the like button, subscribe to the channel. 27 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:16.120 And if you want to get all the updates on various things going on here at Remnant Radio, 28 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:17.320 subscribe to the newsletter. 29 00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:18.840 There's a link for that in the description. 30 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:22.080 It'll give you discounts on conferences, courses. 31 00:01:22.080 --> 00:01:26.360 It'll give you, man, a cool e-book on spiritual gifts, if that's something that you're interested 32 00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:27.360 in. 33 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:30.400 It's an e-book on our perspective on things supernatural. 34 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:36.000 So, I very encourage you to go check that out over at theremnantradio.com and subscribe 35 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.000 that way. 36 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.320 I want to introduce to my co-hosts, my partners in crime. 37 00:01:38.320 --> 00:01:41.360 I've got Michael Miller and Michael Roundtree with me today. 38 00:01:41.360 --> 00:01:46.920 Miller, you are no longer overseas in European countries. 39 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.520 You are, you're in Missouri, is that right? 40 00:01:49.520 --> 00:01:50.520 Not in my studio, though. 41 00:01:50.520 --> 00:01:51.520 Yeah, I'm in Missouri. 42 00:01:51.960 --> 00:01:52.960 Okay. 43 00:01:52.960 --> 00:01:56.480 So, how's it going over there in Missouri? 44 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:57.480 I mean, good. 45 00:01:57.480 --> 00:01:58.480 I just got here. 46 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:01.200 So, yesterday, I was with Roundtree in Denver. 47 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:07.120 I got back on Monday, went the next morning with Roundtree to go hiking a mountain, and 48 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.840 then flew out to Missouri this morning. 49 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:13.760 And then I'll be in Chicago tomorrow, and then Atlanta the following week. 50 00:02:13.760 --> 00:02:16.240 So, I got quite a bit going on. 51 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:19.360 And then I don't travel for a little while, which would be nice. 52 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:20.800 Are you out there with Robert Gentry? 53 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:22.320 Yes, I am. 54 00:02:22.320 --> 00:02:23.320 Cool. 55 00:02:23.320 --> 00:02:25.160 Yeah, I'm heading out there in a couple weeks. 56 00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:26.800 And then maybe we can convince Roundtree to go, too. 57 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:27.800 Who knows? 58 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:28.800 I think he is going. 59 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:29.800 I'm going. 60 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:30.800 A couple weeks after you. 61 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:31.800 Oh, nice. 62 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.080 You get the whole clan out there in Missouri. 63 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:35.080 Who would have known? 64 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.200 Who would have known? 65 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:38.200 Yeah. 66 00:02:38.200 --> 00:02:39.200 So, we went hiking. 67 00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:43.480 First, I actually preached in Miller's church on Sunday morning, and then Sunday night, 68 00:02:43.480 --> 00:02:48.480 we did an equipping night, talked about prophecy, so really cool. 69 00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:54.880 And saw a really awesome healing, a guy who had a serious sprain of his ankle like a year 70 00:02:54.880 --> 00:02:57.680 and a half ago, and it basically just never healed. 71 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:03.200 And it affected his line of work, and it was just a lot of pain that he was in. 72 00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:11.280 And spent quite a while praying over him after the Sunday morning service. 73 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.840 And he experienced moments where it seemed to have felt better, but it wasn't something 74 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:17.720 you would call a healing. 75 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:20.880 And I just said, well, you know, Luke 17, the lepers were healed as they went. 76 00:03:20.880 --> 00:03:22.560 Maybe you'll be healed as you go. 77 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.840 And so, got a message later that day. 78 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.520 In fact, the wife came back to the meeting that night and said, my husband was totally 79 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:30.520 healed. 80 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:31.520 He's amazing, and he's so excited. 81 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:37.440 And then he sent a message saying, this was one of the best days of my life, because it 82 00:03:37.440 --> 00:03:41.760 was really painful, and the pain was completely gone. 83 00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:43.360 So that was really cool. 84 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:49.040 And stuck around with Miller, actually on Monday, I played golf with my son, William. 85 00:03:49.040 --> 00:03:52.720 So I brought my 13-year-old, because he just had a 13th birthday. 86 00:03:52.720 --> 00:03:57.120 So I took him on a man trip, played some golf in Denver, and then hiked a mountain. 87 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:58.600 Then he hiked a glacier, man. 88 00:03:58.600 --> 00:04:01.200 Your son hiked a glacier on a mountain. 89 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:02.200 Yeah. 90 00:04:02.200 --> 00:04:03.200 11,000 feet up. 91 00:04:03.200 --> 00:04:04.200 It's pretty intense. 92 00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:05.200 Yeah. 93 00:04:05.200 --> 00:04:06.200 It was hailing on us. 94 00:04:06.200 --> 00:04:07.200 It was hailing on us. 95 00:04:07.200 --> 00:04:11.840 It was really like, kind of like climbing Everest, pretty much. 96 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:12.840 Okay. 97 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:13.840 Sorry. 98 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:20.320 That's my charismatic exaggeration for the day. 99 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:21.320 Was it really hailing? 100 00:04:21.320 --> 00:04:24.320 Or are you just trying to make it sound tougher than it was? 101 00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:25.320 Yeah. 102 00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:26.320 Okay. 103 00:04:26.320 --> 00:04:27.320 That part's true. 104 00:04:27.320 --> 00:04:29.840 It did start hailing off and on, but it was just like pelting us. 105 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:31.840 It wasn't like big hail. 106 00:04:31.840 --> 00:04:35.880 Anyway, speaking of outpourings, I think that's our subject for the day. 107 00:04:35.880 --> 00:04:36.880 Well done. 108 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:38.560 There it is. 109 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:39.560 Good job, buddy. 110 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:40.560 Yeah. 111 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:41.560 There it is. 112 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:42.560 Yeah. 113 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:48.360 So talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit, and it's something that there's a lot of debate 114 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:56.000 about and a lot of people in my circles will just kind of assume, well, yeah, everyone 115 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:00.040 who's charismatic believes that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent. 116 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:05.360 experience like you're saved, then you kind of, you know, have not that great of a Christian 117 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.440 experience for a while, but then you experience an outpouring of power from on high. 118 00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:16.220 And then after that moment, you are more sanctified, you speak in tongues, you have more power 119 00:05:16.220 --> 00:05:18.320 in your witness, etc. 120 00:05:18.320 --> 00:05:24.480 And so now a lot of people have had an experience that could be described in these ways, like 121 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.200 they've experienced some kind of greater power after a greater encounter with the Holy Spirit, 122 00:05:29.200 --> 00:05:30.880 which we fully affirm. 123 00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:35.200 But at the same time, we'd say, you know what, there's a lot of people within our camp who 124 00:05:35.200 --> 00:05:40.720 believe theologically that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is simultaneous to conversion, 125 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.760 not subsequent to conversion. 126 00:05:42.760 --> 00:05:49.180 And so we're going to kind of wrestle through this debate and in a way that I hope expresses 127 00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:52.840 charity to all sides while also affirming where we stand on it. 128 00:05:52.840 --> 00:05:55.240 So there's my little tee up introduction. 129 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.920 Josh, you want to take us into our show notes or either of you guys want to add anything 130 00:05:58.920 --> 00:05:59.920 else to what I said? 131 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:00.920 Miller? 132 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:01.920 He's unmuted. 133 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:08.400 No, I mean, I think, yeah, sorry, I try to mute it because I'm using my AirPod instead 134 00:06:08.400 --> 00:06:09.400 of a mic. 135 00:06:09.400 --> 00:06:11.240 So I don't want there to be all the background noise. 136 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:17.800 Yeah, I think this particular topic ends up being really controversial, mostly because 137 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:22.240 of how meaningful it is to people when they, you know, before they weren't experiencing 138 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:26.080 much in the way of gifts of the Spirit, but then they have some sort of experience and 139 00:06:26.080 --> 00:06:29.920 afterwards they are experiencing more of the gifts, or at least now they're more open 140 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.000 to those gifts and are pursuing them. 141 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.120 And so we don't want to in any way invalidate those experiences. 142 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:40.440 In fact, we want to encourage those experiences, saying that, you know, believing that that 143 00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:42.920 is something that happens in our Christian life on occasion. 144 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.720 I don't think it happens all the time. 145 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:50.080 But when it comes to doctrinally where we stand on it, we're going to be slightly different 146 00:06:50.080 --> 00:06:52.080 while still affirming those experiences. 147 00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:53.640 Yeah, that's right. 148 00:06:53.640 --> 00:06:57.280 So the classical Pentecostal position, and I was raised classical Pentecostal, was raised 149 00:06:57.280 --> 00:07:02.200 in the assemblies of God, other denominations, such as the Church of God and the four square. 150 00:07:02.200 --> 00:07:04.800 Those are classical Pentecostal denominations, right? 151 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.880 Think not buns and skirts, not the oneness Pentecostals. 152 00:07:07.880 --> 00:07:11.520 These Pentecostals are like, hey, we believe in the gifts of the Spirit. 153 00:07:11.520 --> 00:07:16.840 And we believe that there's this kind of subsequent evidence that empowers believers in that gift 154 00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:19.880 called, well, experience called the baptism of the Spirit. 155 00:07:19.880 --> 00:07:22.240 And there is a subsequent evidence in those communities. 156 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:26.600 They would agree that with evangelicals, that salvation, at the moment of salvation, 157 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.040 there's an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 158 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.080 They would appeal to verses like John 3, 5 through 6, unless you're born of water and 159 00:07:33.080 --> 00:07:35.400 the Spirit, you can't inherit the kingdom of God. 160 00:07:35.400 --> 00:07:39.440 Romans 8, 9, anyone who does not have the Spirit doesn't belong to Christ, doesn't belong 161 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:40.440 to him. 162 00:07:40.440 --> 00:07:44.560 Ephesians 1, 13 through 14, when you believe you are marked with the seal, the promised 163 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.440 Holy Spirit, who's a deposit guarantee for your inheritance. 164 00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:48.440 So they would affirm all those verses. 165 00:07:48.440 --> 00:07:50.760 And they would say that's the indwelling of the Spirit. 166 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:54.240 The Spirit comes inside you, lives in you, rests in you. 167 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:58.880 All believers who have come to faith, they would say, you have received the Holy Spirit. 168 00:07:58.880 --> 00:08:03.520 Now subsequent to that, some might ask questions like, have you received the full gospel? 169 00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:04.720 Have you received power? 170 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:06.200 Have you received the Holy Spirit? 171 00:08:06.200 --> 00:08:11.080 And what they're asking typically isn't that kind of indwelling work of the Spirit. 172 00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:16.520 What they're asking is, have you had power from on high that comes upon you and empowers 173 00:08:16.520 --> 00:08:21.520 you in the spiritual gifts, that gives you power for witness or boldness? 174 00:08:21.520 --> 00:08:27.280 This is called, in their worldview, a baptism of the Holy Spirit, that experience. 175 00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:31.040 Pentecostals believe that after conversion, that the believer can receive a second distinct 176 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.720 experience called the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is primarily for empowerment, 177 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:40.159 for service, witness, and not regeneration. 178 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.600 So empowerment for mission, that'll be like Acts 1, 8, you'll receive power from on high 179 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:49.640 to be my witnesses, impartation of spiritual gifts, seen in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, 180 00:08:49.640 --> 00:08:53.880 because the accompanying power that happens in the accounts that they go through Acts, 181 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:56.520 they'll say, look, the Holy Spirit fell upon them. 182 00:08:56.520 --> 00:09:00.600 And when the Holy Spirit fell upon them, you'll see these signs of prophecy in tongues. 183 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.680 So one, it gives you power, two, it gives you spiritual gifts. 184 00:09:03.680 --> 00:09:07.680 It also deepens your intimacy and your relationship with Jesus. 185 00:09:07.680 --> 00:09:12.680 Some Pentecostals will agree with that articulation, others might feel uncomfortable by it, but 186 00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:18.160 they would affirm, like Romans 8, 26 through 27, likewise, the Spirit helps us in our 187 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:22.960 weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes 188 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:28.480 for us in groanings too deep for words, and he who searches the hearts knows what is the 189 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.840 mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 190 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.760 Many, and again, I don't want to say all, but they would look at a passage like Romans 191 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:42.640 8, 26 through 27, and say that the work of the Spirit here is that tongue speech, which 192 00:09:42.640 --> 00:09:47.160 they would say is an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 193 00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:49.520 So why would you need the baptism? 194 00:09:49.520 --> 00:09:51.920 I've already come to salvation, I already have the Holy Spirit. 195 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:55.360 Well, they say, well, you need more, you need more for power, you need more for spiritual 196 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.880 gifts, you need more because the Spirit will pray through you. 197 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.320 seems to be some scriptural basis that they're going to look to to say these are verses that 198 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.640 talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I've monologued for a little bit, so I feel like I 199 00:10:08.640 --> 00:10:12.560 should turn it over to you guys. Who wants to tackle some of the Pentecostal proof texts for 200 00:10:12.560 --> 00:10:20.960 baptism of the Holy Ghost? You're both muted. I can start us out. So yeah, and I think a fair 201 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:27.280 case can be made. So we call this second blessing theology. So the first blessing being conversion 202 00:10:27.280 --> 00:10:31.440 and the second blessing being that extra empowerment that comes afterward when you're 203 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:37.760 empowered with the Holy Spirit or baptized with the Holy Spirit. So I think a reasonable biblical 204 00:10:37.760 --> 00:10:42.400 case can be made for this, and if you hold to this, I think, I mean, these are the scriptures 205 00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:46.000 that you're going to go to. You're going to go to Acts chapter 2, and you're going to say, hey, 206 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:51.200 these disciples who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they were already regenerated. They 207 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.480 were already believers, and it was subsequent to their conversion that the baptism of the Holy 208 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.600 Spirit fell upon them. Then they're going to look at Acts chapter 8, and you see a similar event 209 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.920 where you have the Samaritans in this case. So first we had Jews. Now we have Samaritans as the 210 00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:12.720 gospel is radiating outward to different people groups, just like Acts 1.8 says, to Jerusalem, 211 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.600 Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. So now we're in Samaria and Philip's preaching. A bunch 212 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:23.920 of people get saved and baptized, and even miracles are poured out. Demons are shrieking as they leave 213 00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:29.120 and healings and all kinds of supernatural phenomena, but one supernatural phenomenon is 214 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:33.520 particularly lacking, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's not until Peter and John come and 215 00:11:33.520 --> 00:11:38.720 lay hands on them that the Samaritans receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so the argument 216 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:43.840 goes, look, these people were already saved. They were already baptized, and subsequently the 217 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.840 baptism of the Holy Spirit fell upon them through the laying on of hands and prayer, and so this is 218 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:53.600 a model for us. Then they'll look at Acts chapter 9, where Paul is saved, but it's a few days later 219 00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:57.760 when Ananias comes, praise for him, and he receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, 220 00:11:57.760 --> 00:12:00.960 although there it's called the filling of the Holy Spirit, which is a whole other episode. 221 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:05.680 Baptism versus filling, are they same or are they different? Man, I wish we could park there, 222 00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:13.520 but we'll keep going. Acts chapter 10 actually becomes one that is harder for the classical 223 00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:19.760 Pentecostals to explain, because Peter's preaching and the Spirit falls upon the Gentiles, so now 224 00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:24.560 we're at a new people group, not Jews, not Samaritans, but Gentiles, and the Holy Spirit 225 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:30.160 falls upon the Gentiles as he's preaching, which shows an event where the baptism of the Holy 226 00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:36.640 Spirit and conversion coincide, so rather than this second blessing, it seems to be all rolled 227 00:12:36.640 --> 00:12:41.200 into one with conversion, and so you have the evangelicals on one side saying, look, Cornelius 228 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.000 is normative, because they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the same time as conversion, 229 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.560 and you have the classical Pentecostals saying, well, that's the exception, not the rule. The 230 00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:54.400 rule is, look what happened to the Jews, look what happened to the Samaritans, it was subsequent to 231 00:12:54.400 --> 00:13:01.120 conversion, and thus the confusion. There's one more text that occurs in Acts chapter 19, 232 00:13:01.680 --> 00:13:08.320 where the Ephesian 12, 12 men receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but there's debate over 233 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:14.720 whether they were saved or not, because if they were already saved, then that leans one way, 234 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:19.040 and if they were already saved and then received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it leans 235 00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:23.840 toward the Pentecostal view. If they were saved in that moment, and baptized in the Holy Spirit in 236 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:30.480 that moment, leads to the more common evangelical view, but Acts 19 is the other one. So that's the 237 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:37.440 basic proof text. Did I miss anything, guys? I would only add to that, is that Michael is 238 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:42.160 articulating the best, and I think rightly so, I said the best of his ability, might sound like a 239 00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:48.480 jab, but rightly what I would call the Pentecostal position, right? So he is saying, oh, we see the 240 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.280 baptism here of the Spirit in Acts 8, we see the baptism of the Spirit in Acts 9, the baptism of 241 00:13:53.280 --> 00:13:59.680 the Spirit in Acts 10, and the baptism of the Spirit in Acts 19. I would be very clear, Michael 242 00:13:59.680 --> 00:14:05.680 is describing what the classical Pentecostals would teach. He's not saying that is what the text 243 00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:11.600 itself says. In fact, if you go to all of those verses, with the exception of Acts 2, none of them 244 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:17.120 have any evidence for the phrase, baptism in the Spirit. That phrase is missing, which I think 245 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:22.800 is extremely important. So anyway, I digress. We're just trying to give the Pentecostal position. I'll 246 00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:26.800 turn it over to Miller, and you can talk about what you like about the view, what your thoughts 247 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:32.160 are on it, that kind of thing. Yeah, well, I think there's merit in the fact that they're pursuing 248 00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:36.720 more of the Spirit. And so you see it in several different passages where Paul prays for that very 249 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:42.400 thing. In Ephesians 1.17, that the Father may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation and 250 00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:47.440 knowledge of Him. In Ephesians 3.16, that according to the riches of His glory, He may grant to you, 251 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:51.680 be strengthened with power through the Spirit in your inner being. And you've also got Paul writing 252 00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:57.040 to Timothy, 1 Timothy 4.14, telling him not to neglect the gift that was given to him at a later 253 00:14:57.040 --> 00:15:00.000 time. And then 2 Timothy 1.6, he mentions another. 254 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.400 gifts that was given to him. He sees this all as a good thing. And then in Romans 1.12, he says, 255 00:15:04.400 --> 00:15:08.800 I long to see you that I might impart some spiritual gifts. And then you've also got the 256 00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:15.280 apostles having another encounter with the spirit in Acts chapter four. In fact, I think you see 257 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:21.600 Paul on three occasions gets filled with the spirit and Peter on three occasions gets filled 258 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:26.000 with the spirit being different words, different experiences. But the point is this, what they're 259 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.800 pursuing is more of the spirit. And it does seem like that is a thing that is advocated for. I 260 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:37.760 mean, they even advocate that you'd have times of refreshing by the spirit. And so the idea of 261 00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:42.720 subsequent experiences we affirm entirely, I affirm entirely. And if anything, I think it's 262 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.840 advocated for in the text. But that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with their usage of it. 263 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.960 Like you mentioned earlier, the passages being used aren't actually talking about the baptism 264 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:57.920 of the spirit. Well, they're not using that phrase. Although I do think Acts chapter 10 265 00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:02.640 is a baptism of the spirit. And same thing with the Samaritans, although the term is not used. 266 00:16:02.640 --> 00:16:11.520 So that's important. And maybe to chime in here too, that I think, so Josh, I would actually, 267 00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:15.760 yes, that is how Pentecostals describe it. But maybe you and I differ on this because I would 268 00:16:15.760 --> 00:16:20.960 say Acts chapter eight is describing the baptism of the Holy Spirit, even though it doesn't use 269 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:26.320 that language. And the same for Acts chapter 10 and the same for Acts chapter 19. I find in the 270 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:29.920 book of Acts, sometimes it'll use the language of baptized. Sometimes we'll use the language of 271 00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:36.080 poured out, fell upon, came upon, a gift that's given or the Holy Spirit was received. And I see 272 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:44.800 all of these as being part of this sort of vortex of vocabulary meant to describe the same phenomenon. 273 00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:49.920 And you see the same, like take Acts chapter two, like everybody agrees that's the baptism 274 00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:53.840 of the Holy Spirit because Jesus says, hey, in a few days, you're going to be baptized with the 275 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:58.320 Holy Spirit. And then Pentecost happens in Acts chapter two, but then when it happens in Acts two, 276 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:03.520 it doesn't say they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It says they were filled. And so I think 277 00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:11.680 Luke can use different vocabulary to describe phenomena with the Holy Spirit. Although I think 278 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:18.400 where Pentecostals do err, and this is my trying to express a humble opinion here, is that they 279 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:23.040 overmarry baptism and filling of the Holy Spirit, that they can occur simultaneously. But I think 280 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:29.920 this different vocabulary kind of creates this part of why we have this debate. And as Miller 281 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:34.080 pointed out, Peter's filled with the Holy Spirit three times, twice in Acts chapter four alone, 282 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:40.080 and then once in Acts chapter two. So I would say the filling of the Holy Spirit is a 283 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:45.520 repeatable empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Paul's filled in Acts chapter nine, as well as in Acts 284 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:51.440 chapter 13, but sometimes the filling and the baptism can overlap. But I would say that those 285 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.520 instances are actually baptism of the Holy Spirit, so maybe you disagree with me on that. 286 00:17:55.520 --> 00:18:01.440 No, no. I think Acts 11 affirms it as well. Yeah, I think we would agree that what is taking 287 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.280 place in the events where people are getting saved is a baptism of the Spirit. What I think 288 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:11.840 is important, though, is that as we're approaching those texts, I learned this from a lexicographer, 289 00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:15.360 actually the one that discipled Michael and Michael both. I don't get any credit from this guy. 290 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.400 I'm just quoting Jack. So Jack Deere would say like, hey, if you want to figure out what a word 291 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.360 means, right? An lexicographer, if you don't know, is a guy who like studies Greek and Hebrew and 292 00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:28.480 tells you what that word means in English, right? If you really want to know what a word means, 293 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.240 you go and find an author's use of a word, and you go find every time he used that word, 294 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:37.200 and you try to glean from it what that word means. So in all of the accounts, and we're going to find 295 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:43.440 this in our little next section here, you're going to find that the words baptism of the Spirit, 296 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.040 when it's describing an event, most of the time, it's looking forward to an event, 297 00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:52.880 an event that's not actively being described in that moment. When you get two verses that define 298 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:58.320 the event, you're going to see that they point in another direction. So I actually have no problem 299 00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:03.040 with acknowledging, hey, when the Samaritans believe they were baptized in the Spirit, 300 00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:11.120 or when Paul is, you know, encountering Christ and is being filled with the Spirit in Acts 9, 301 00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:16.800 I said, Paul, I meant Peter, when he goes to the Gentiles, when he goes to Cornelius's house, 302 00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:19.840 right? But all of those examples, I would say, yeah, that's a baptism of the Spirit, 303 00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:23.600 but the text doesn't call it that. And I think it's important that we first define our terms, 304 00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:27.520 what is baptism of the Spirit as described in that language by looking at all those verses, 305 00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:32.320 and we'll do that here in the next section. Rountree, do you want to take it from there? 306 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:40.000 Sure. Okay. So let's dive in a little bit into the Pentecostal view of 307 00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:45.680 baptism of the Holy Spirit. Well, we've already begun doing that, but kind of taking a closer 308 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.840 look at baptism with the Spirit. So John chapter 1, verses 33, it says, 309 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:56.960 he on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. 310 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.920 So this is John baptizing Jesus, and he's saying, hey, 311 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:05.520 Famous verses, like the one who's sandal I'm not worthy to untie, he's going to baptize 312 00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:07.400 with the Holy Spirit and fire. 313 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.440 And you see that language in the synoptic gospels as well. 314 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:15.020 Here's Mark 1a, I've baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. 315 00:20:15.020 --> 00:20:20.440 And so John the Baptist suggests that his baptism is one of like ceremonial cleansing, 316 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:25.480 but that Jesus is coming to give you a greater baptism, which we learn is a baptism with 317 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:26.760 power. 318 00:20:26.760 --> 00:20:31.000 So Matthew 3.11, he'll baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, Luke 3.16, the 319 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.460 same thing. 320 00:20:33.460 --> 00:20:39.240 And so what you see in context is that the fire of baptism, well, scholars are kind of 321 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:44.880 split on this and I'll just kind of give my input. 322 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.860 I think the fire speaks of judgment, you know, John the Baptist will speak of like the ax 323 00:20:48.860 --> 00:20:53.600 is laid at the root of the tree and anyone who doesn't bear fruit is going to be judged 324 00:20:53.600 --> 00:20:55.440 and that kind of thing. 325 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.920 And so I think that there's this connotation of judgment mixed in with the baptism of the 326 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:00.920 Holy Spirit. 327 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:05.240 Maybe you guys can comment on that a little bit, because of course on Pentecost, you see 328 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:10.400 the Holy Spirit, whenever he's poured out, that there are tongues of fire over their 329 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:11.400 heads. 330 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:12.400 What do you guys make of that? 331 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.920 I mean, I've got two different texts. 332 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.960 I mean, when I pulled up all my Logos commentaries, it was a 50-50 split on this issue. 333 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:28.600 I tend to let the literary flow of a given text trump hyperlinks to other texts, if that 334 00:21:28.600 --> 00:21:29.600 makes sense. 335 00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:33.240 So if I'm just reading the text as a flow, you mentioned, he's going to baptize you with 336 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.760 the Holy Spirit and fire directly following that, or maybe it's right before that. 337 00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:41.800 He's going to gather his wheat into his barn and then he's going to burn the chaff with 338 00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:43.160 unquenchable fire. 339 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.920 So as I read the text, I go, hey, the literary flow seems to be that the baptism of fire 340 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.700 is connected to this chaff burning picture. 341 00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:54.740 But there are passages in the Old Testament that speak of God's purifying fire, that when 342 00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:59.420 he pours out the Spirit, he's going to come, he's going to clean with like a refiner's 343 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:04.980 soap and yeah, Malachi 4, and the refiner's fire that he comes in and takes care of all 344 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:05.980 of the impurities. 345 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:09.500 And you could make the argument that maybe it's both, you know, maybe he's purifying 346 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:12.820 his people with this fire while burning others with judgment. 347 00:22:12.820 --> 00:22:13.820 Sure. 348 00:22:13.820 --> 00:22:14.820 Why not? 349 00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:18.660 It doesn't really change, I don't think, the flow of the text too much to make it one way 350 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:19.720 or the other. 351 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.580 If I had to pick a side, I'm going on the side of judgment. 352 00:22:23.580 --> 00:22:24.980 I'm going 70-30. 353 00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:28.180 I'm not like absolutely convinced, but I'm pretty convinced. 354 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:34.260 And yes, I see the tongues of fire in Acts 2, but it's saying tongues as a fire. 355 00:22:34.260 --> 00:22:37.240 It's descriptive of like what the Spirit is doing. 356 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:42.940 It's not, it's not a wooden literalism, literal fire was present. 357 00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:45.820 But Miller, you got any thoughts on that? 358 00:22:45.820 --> 00:22:46.820 Yeah. 359 00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:50.540 I think I'm with you guys on the judgment component of it. 360 00:22:50.540 --> 00:22:55.060 But I also think of the passage about anything done against the Son of Man will be forgiven, 361 00:22:55.060 --> 00:22:58.640 but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be. 362 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:03.700 And so it does seem like the rejection of Christ, which would also lead to not receiving 363 00:23:03.700 --> 00:23:08.420 the Spirit, the baptism of the Spirit would result in judgment. 364 00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:12.380 And so the fact that those are sort of put next to each other, either the reception of 365 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.020 the Spirit or unquenchable fire. 366 00:23:15.020 --> 00:23:19.060 And also when you look at other texts, when it talks about unquenchable fire, it's usually 367 00:23:19.060 --> 00:23:20.940 not talking about refining. 368 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:23.380 It's talking about a permanent judgment. 369 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:24.380 Yeah. 370 00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:31.140 And in the language of baptism, like to take water baptism for a moment, like in the waters 371 00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:36.960 of baptism represent a passing through the judgment of God and rising up above it with 372 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.620 resurrection life. 373 00:23:38.620 --> 00:23:42.260 And so, and that's how water is represented throughout the Old Testament. 374 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:46.820 It's not the only usage of water, but, you know, Israel passing through the Red Sea, 375 00:23:46.820 --> 00:23:51.860 for instance, in the waters of judgment, falling on everyone, Noah in the flood. 376 00:23:51.860 --> 00:23:55.260 So you see water consistently in connection with judgment. 377 00:23:55.260 --> 00:23:59.340 Now you have baptism in not here water, but fire. 378 00:23:59.340 --> 00:24:03.260 But I think it does speak of this similar reality of that having placed our faith in 379 00:24:03.260 --> 00:24:06.260 Christ, we pass through the fires of judgment. 380 00:24:06.260 --> 00:24:08.980 And I do see a hyperlink with the flames over their head. 381 00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:13.140 It's like they've passed through the flame and not been consumed by it. 382 00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:16.460 And now they're proclaiming judgment and repentance for people. 383 00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:21.340 And so it kind of bleeds into this theme of empowerment as well. 384 00:24:21.340 --> 00:24:28.380 So I like to harmonize views, but let's keep moving through because what we've been doing 385 00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:34.980 is we've been looking at the references to baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. 386 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:40.860 And just to keep going, Acts 1-5, John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the 387 00:24:40.860 --> 00:24:42.460 Holy Spirit not many days from now. 388 00:24:42.460 --> 00:24:47.840 So this is Jesus on his way to ascend into heaven, which is a really key text because 389 00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:50.060 it's really connected to Jesus' ascension. 390 00:24:50.060 --> 00:24:55.860 You'll see in Acts chapter 2, verses 29 to 36, that it's Jesus from the right hand of 391 00:24:55.860 --> 00:25:00.020 God having ascended, who will, having received the Holy Spirit, pours out this, which is 392 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.440 you both see and hear, and so it's because of the Ascension that Jesus can 393 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.120 pour out his Holy Spirit. So the Ascension wasn't just about 394 00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:11.760 transportation to heaven, it was about the exaltation of King Jesus where he 395 00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:16.760 received the Holy Spirit to pour out upon all flesh. That plays out in Acts 396 00:25:16.760 --> 00:25:21.480 chapter 11, the same quotes gonna be repeated because it's a theme in Luke 397 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:26.840 and Acts as well as all the Gospels, but Peter speaking, he's relaying the story 398 00:25:26.840 --> 00:25:30.660 of the Gentile baptism of the Holy Spirit to his Jewish friends. He says, 399 00:25:56.840 --> 00:26:02.160 much good stuff there, but this is again like it clarifies, and Miller you 400 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.200 referenced this, that even though Acts 10 doesn't use the language of baptism 401 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:10.160 the Holy Spirit, I think it uses the language of poured out, it clarifies in 402 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:15.680 Acts chapter 11 that was a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Cornelius's story is 403 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.480 really instructive for our point of view, but we'll come back to that. The last 404 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:23.400 textual reference, and then I'll just give it over to you guys, is 1st 405 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.960 Corinthians 12 12, and this one's unique because it's in one of the epistles, so 406 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:31.160 it's really hard sometimes to determine like what theology is a narrative 407 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.120 teaching us, and so sometimes you'll hear people distinguish between 408 00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:40.720 descriptive texts and prescriptive texts, and the epistles tend toward 409 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:46.240 prescription, whereas the narrative texts tend toward description of what happens. 410 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:51.320 We can derive theology from them and should, but we have to be a little extra 411 00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:55.680 careful that we're not cherry-picking, and 1st Corinthians 12 12 mentions the 412 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.040 baptism of the Holy Spirit, and here's what Paul says, he says, for just as the 413 00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:03.880 body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are 414 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:10.200 one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one 415 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:17.240 body. Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all were made to drink of one Spirit. And 416 00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.000 so he'll parallel the baptism of the Holy Spirit with drinking of the Spirit, 417 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:26.520 but most notably, when he says we were all baptized in the Spirit, he 418 00:27:26.520 --> 00:27:32.560 connects this to our inclusion into the body of Christ, and that's also going to 419 00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:36.440 be an important verse for us to come back to. I don't know, I mean, we can dive 420 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:39.720 into these verses now, or we can kind of save it for our reflection section, 421 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:43.560 whatever you guys want to do. No, I think it's appropriate to do it now. I mean, if 422 00:27:43.560 --> 00:27:50.080 you go through all these seven verses, again, the first five of seven, these are 423 00:27:50.080 --> 00:27:53.520 all seven references of the baptism of the Spirit in the New Testament, all of 424 00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:58.400 them. The first five are talking about a future event that has not happened yet. 425 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:03.080 So it's not as if someone spoke in tongues and they said, look, that is the 426 00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:07.240 baptism of the Spirit. They're looking forward to a future event. There's only 427 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:13.000 two passages here in Acts 11 describing when the Gentiles came to salvation, 428 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:17.960 calling it the baptism of the Spirit, and 1st Corinthians 12 12 through 13, 429 00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:22.480 calling that the baptism of the Spirit. Now, the Pentecostal could look at Acts 11 430 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.160 and say, no, no, no, when it says baptism of the Spirit, I saw the gift that was 431 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.120 given to them. That was the baptism of the Spirit. It was a unique circumstance 432 00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:33.880 where both things happened at the same time. You only really have two verses you 433 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:38.160 can work with to define what you think the baptism of the Spirit is, because 434 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:41.880 the other verses are pointing to a future event. Only one is saying that was 435 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:47.200 the baptism of the Spirit. So even if you could say Luke 11 15 through 18 is 436 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:51.720 pointing towards the tongue speech as, oh look, that's the evidence of the 437 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:56.960 baptism of the Spirit. You can't do that with 1st Corinthians 12 12. I would 438 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:02.240 submit what harmonizes both passages is if you take 1st Corinthians 12 12 through 439 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:07.040 13 and say, oh, if you've been a member of the body of Christ, you have been 440 00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:11.000 baptized in the Spirit, that means that salvation is the baptism of the Spirit. 441 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:17.720 And if I connect that new covenant salvation to Acts 11, that harmonizes 442 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:22.400 both. So I think the Pentecostal interpretation might work in Acts 11, but 443 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.720 doesn't work in 1st Corinthians 12. But the interpretation that it happens at 444 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.760 salvation works in both 1st Corinthians 12 and Acts 11, which is kind of what has 445 00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:37.040 compelled me to view the baptism of the Spirit as the event of coming to 446 00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:41.040 salvation. Now, I've got Pentecostal brothers and sisters out there, they're 447 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:44.600 gonna be like, what about Acts 2? They were saved and then they received the 448 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:48.360 baptism of the Spirit. I'm gonna argue kind of in this next section that 449 00:29:48.360 --> 00:29:51.920 actually those two events are one in the same. They were saved under the Old 450 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:57.200 Covenant and did not receive the baptism of the Spirit until the inauguration of 451 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:02.240 the new covenant. But I've chatted a little 452 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.000 But on these verses, Miller, do you have any thoughts that you want to add on the commentary of some of these passages? 453 00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:13.960 Yeah, and the only thing that I, well, it's a big, it's a big bit to add into this, but it's also worth paying attention to. 454 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:18.360 So in First Corinthians 12, it is talking about the gifts of the Spirit. 455 00:30:18.360 --> 00:30:22.680 He starts off the chapter saying, now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant, unaware. 456 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.760 So then he starts talking about all these things and he reminds them, hey, it's one in the same spirit. 457 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:33.240 And we've all been baptized by this, into this one spirit, into the body of Christ. 458 00:30:33.760 --> 00:30:43.000 So he's connecting, placing us into the body of Christ with this baptism of the spirit, which is a salvific thing that takes place, us being in the body. 459 00:30:43.600 --> 00:30:46.800 But being in the body also means that we come with different gifts. 460 00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:55.640 So I wouldn't deny that the baptism of the spirit, I would in no way say that the baptism of the spirit isn't connected to gifts. 461 00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:57.520 In fact, I think it is connected to gifts. 462 00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:04.800 I think when you come out of the waters of the Holy Spirit, you're now in the body of Christ, which makes one of you a hand, one of you an eye, one of you a foot. 463 00:31:05.320 --> 00:31:10.160 And so one of the things I would add to this is that there's no such thing as a giftless Christian. 464 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:24.480 And then if we're to talk about the inauguration of the new covenant, then there's a number of other texts that we can pull from, from the old covenant, talking about how this new covenant reality is going to come and it's going to come with the giving of the spirit. 465 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.120 And how that old covenant, only a few people were given the spirit. 466 00:31:28.520 --> 00:31:37.200 We've got kings of Israel, prophets of Israel, judges of Israel, some of the priests of Israel, but by and large, it wasn't given to all of the people of Israel. 467 00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:40.080 But in the new covenant, that's going to change. 468 00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:48.880 And there's a number of Old Testament passages that are pulled on when Peter describes that this is what they're seeing happen in Acts chapter two. 469 00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:56.040 What I find interesting is he doesn't quote from Jeremiah or Ezekiel, which is what most people want to point to when it comes to the new covenant. 470 00:31:56.520 --> 00:32:14.920 He actually points to Isaiah 59 and how God will put this speech in his children's mouth and his children's children's mouth until all generations, like all future generations, which really goes against the cessationist argument as well, because it shows that God's speech is to be the new norm for the new covenant people of God. 471 00:32:15.560 --> 00:32:32.600 So anyway, I think if you connect baptism of the spirit with the giving of the spirit as it was prophesied as a new covenant reality, what's also fun is that this new covenant reality we knew would extend to the Gentiles, especially when you look at certain Septuagint Old Testament Greek passages that talk about it. 472 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:34.440 So there's a lot there. 473 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:44.800 Yeah, I think that what we're talking about is so in theology, we call this the analogy of faith, that we use the clear passages of scripture to interpret the unclear. 474 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:57.640 And I'll freely admit that when it comes to the book of Acts, it's pretty difficult to determine why some people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion, such as the Jews and Samaritans in Acts two and eight. 475 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:08.760 Whereas others receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit simultaneous to conversion, such as the Gentiles in Acts chapter 10, a story that's retold in Acts chapter 11. 476 00:33:09.280 --> 00:33:13.840 And I do think we can look at the narrative text and come to some conclusions from it. 477 00:33:14.120 --> 00:33:21.480 But we have the clear text of First Corinthians 12, 13, that says we were all baptized in the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. 478 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:32.160 So Paul doesn't create two levels of Christians like there's the spirit baptized, super empowered ones and the kind of not so empowered Christians who haven't been spirit baptized. 479 00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.640 No, he just readily affirms we've all been baptized in the spirit. 480 00:33:36.040 --> 00:33:41.640 And the power comes from our uniting to the body of Christ, whereby we receive gifts of the Holy Spirit. 481 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.000 And so to Miller's point, that does align everything together. 482 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.080 And Josh made this point, too, that the power, it does flow out of that. 483 00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:58.560 But what it particularly flows out of is that when we're baptized in the Holy Spirit, we are incorporated into the body of Christ so that his power by the spirit flows through us. 484 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:06.360 So I think we have to view the more difficult to explain texts through the clearer texts such as First Corinthians 12, 12. 485 00:34:06.800 --> 00:34:12.040 But then even if we just look at the specific texts of Cornelius, everybody has to ask this question. 486 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:13.600 Which one is normative? 487 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:24.440 The Jew and Samaritan baptism of the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion or the Gentile baptism of the Holy Spirit simultaneous to conversion? 488 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:31.560 And I would argue that the that the Gentile experience is meant to be normative for the church for a few reasons. 489 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:40.320 Number one, for Acts chapter two and chapter eight, we have to understand the Samaritans were basically they were the northern tribes of Israel. 490 00:34:40.520 --> 00:34:45.880 This is fulfilling an ancient promises promise made through Ezekiel that there would be a reuniting of the tribes. 491 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:52.120 They were reunited under the lordship of King Jesus and and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. 492 00:34:52.719 --> 00:35:00.120 And so there was this huge separation, but it wasn't until they came under the the Samaritans. 493 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:03.100 it wasn't until they came under Jerusalem leadership, 494 00:35:03.100 --> 00:35:04.780 which aligns with what Ezekiel had said. 495 00:35:04.780 --> 00:35:06.660 Like, hey, there's going to be a reuniting 496 00:35:06.660 --> 00:35:08.420 of the Southern and Northern tribes. 497 00:35:08.420 --> 00:35:12.620 And so you have some Judeans coming up, John and Peter, 498 00:35:12.620 --> 00:35:15.120 and the reuniting occurs under them. 499 00:35:15.120 --> 00:35:17.760 Otherwise you would have had like the equivalent 500 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:22.160 of a Sunni Shiite kind of Muslim split right at the outset. 501 00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:25.940 And I think that's even hinted at in Acts chapter eight, 502 00:35:25.940 --> 00:35:27.420 whenever it says this, 503 00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:30.100 it says, for the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them, 504 00:35:30.100 --> 00:35:32.260 but they had only been baptized 505 00:35:32.260 --> 00:35:33.780 in the name of the Lord Jesus. 506 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:35.500 Then Peter and John laid their hands on them 507 00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:37.040 and they received the Holy Spirit. 508 00:35:37.040 --> 00:35:38.860 Notice how that first verse I read, 509 00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:41.160 it gives an explanatory comment. 510 00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:43.600 Dr. Allison of Southern Seminary says this, 511 00:35:43.600 --> 00:35:45.340 he says, the Samaritan experience 512 00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:46.860 of the delay of the Holy Spirit 513 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:49.620 is an unusual rather than typical experience 514 00:35:49.620 --> 00:35:51.540 as only an unusual experience 515 00:35:51.540 --> 00:35:53.680 calls for an explanatory comment. 516 00:35:53.680 --> 00:35:54.940 So it's kind of like, well, 517 00:35:54.940 --> 00:35:57.400 we expect it to happen at conversion, 518 00:35:58.380 --> 00:35:59.640 but this seems to be a special scenario. 519 00:35:59.640 --> 00:36:01.520 And so Luke actually takes a verse 520 00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:03.320 to explain that this was special. 521 00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:06.000 Jews and Samaritans lived in a historical time warp 522 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.600 because at one time, 523 00:36:07.600 --> 00:36:09.560 both had lived under the old covenant. 524 00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:12.240 And so there was this transitional period 525 00:36:12.240 --> 00:36:13.680 when the Holy Spirit was poured out. 526 00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:15.600 As it says in John 7, 39 to 40, 527 00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:17.120 the Holy Spirit had not yet been given 528 00:36:17.120 --> 00:36:19.320 because Jesus had not yet been glorified. 529 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:20.660 It's by the work of Jesus, 530 00:36:20.660 --> 00:36:22.540 the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the church 531 00:36:22.540 --> 00:36:26.320 in a way that God's people are baptized in the Spirit. 532 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.100 But when you go to Acts chapters 10 and 11, 533 00:36:29.100 --> 00:36:30.680 so the story's told in Acts 10, 534 00:36:30.680 --> 00:36:32.840 it's told again in Acts chapter 11, 535 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.880 and then it's told again in Acts chapter 15, 536 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.200 three times and in narrative literature, 537 00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:39.760 this is the way you discern 538 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.740 what is the author trying to say? 539 00:36:41.740 --> 00:36:43.200 You say, what are they repeating 540 00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:44.860 over and over and over again? 541 00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:47.880 And what they're repeating is the Gentile conversion 542 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:49.320 where the baptism of the Holy Spirit 543 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:51.280 is simultaneous to conversion. 544 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.900 And so I think Gentiles who lived outside 545 00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:55.280 of this historical time warp 546 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.920 because they had never been under covenant with Yahweh 547 00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.320 are suddenly coming in, 548 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:00.920 well, they received the Spirit 549 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.280 at the same time as conversion. 550 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:03.480 Whereas Jews and Samaritans 551 00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.280 who lived inside of this historical time warp, 552 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:08.400 there were some special attending circumstances. 553 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.160 That's how I would explain it. 554 00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:12.520 So Michael, help me with your interpretation there. 555 00:37:12.520 --> 00:37:13.840 I think I'm on board with everything, 556 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:15.680 but I think I heard you say 557 00:37:15.680 --> 00:37:18.680 that both the Jews and the Samaritans 558 00:37:18.680 --> 00:37:20.880 received the baptism of the Spirit 559 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.160 subsequent to conversion. 560 00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:26.080 I'm defining New Testament conversion, Acts 2, 561 00:37:26.080 --> 00:37:28.880 not subsequently, but simultaneously 562 00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:33.400 because Acts 2 is the inauguration of the new covenant. 563 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:34.280 So like that event, 564 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:35.840 that is their baptism of the Spirit. 565 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.360 It was simultaneous. 566 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:39.640 And then you're saying that the Samaritans- 567 00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:40.920 But you would argue, 568 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.840 okay, well, in Acts 2, there are multiple people. 569 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:46.480 Some, like 2,000 are getting saved in a single day. 570 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:47.800 So they are converted. 571 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:48.640 I see. 572 00:37:48.640 --> 00:37:51.240 But like you would say, Peter and John, 573 00:37:51.240 --> 00:37:53.320 they already knew the Lord before Pentecost. 574 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:54.920 So I think we're on the same page. 575 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:56.760 Yeah, I would say that they were saved 576 00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:58.480 under the old regeneration. 577 00:37:58.480 --> 00:37:59.320 Yes. 578 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.000 Regeneration is a uniquely New Testament, 579 00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.680 new covenant experience. 580 00:38:03.680 --> 00:38:05.480 And so regeneration couldn't have happened. 581 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.120 Some would argue. 582 00:38:07.120 --> 00:38:09.280 Yeah, I would say the regeneration comes with the Spirit. 583 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:11.000 That's one of the perks. 584 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.440 It's the new covenant reality. 585 00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.520 If you're gonna pull from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, 586 00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:17.280 if you're gonna talk about the power, 587 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.680 then you're gonna pull from Isaiah 59. 588 00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:22.120 And all of those things are new covenant experiences. 589 00:38:22.120 --> 00:38:24.440 So conversion, well, there's no need 590 00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:27.240 for Peter, Paul, the apostles. 591 00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:28.800 Well, Paul, actually, sorry. 592 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:31.040 Paul would have to have converted. 593 00:38:31.040 --> 00:38:34.000 But I mean, the believing Jews to convert. 594 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:34.840 Yeah. 595 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:35.680 They already did believe. 596 00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:38.520 It's just they hadn't experienced regeneration yet. 597 00:38:38.520 --> 00:38:40.000 Yeah, like I would say that Peter, 598 00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.960 and I would maybe be careful with the word regeneration 599 00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:43.640 because I think we're close there. 600 00:38:43.640 --> 00:38:45.720 But like Abraham believed God 601 00:38:45.720 --> 00:38:47.480 and it was credited to him as righteousness. 602 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:48.960 Because I believe in depravity, 603 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:50.480 I believe that God had to do something 604 00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:52.080 upon his will, right? 605 00:38:52.080 --> 00:38:56.520 To affect his willingness to have faith, right? 606 00:38:56.520 --> 00:38:58.120 Repentance is, whether you're Arminian 607 00:38:58.120 --> 00:38:59.720 or Calvinist on this issue, 608 00:38:59.720 --> 00:39:01.760 God is the one who first reaches out. 609 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.840 He does something to your will 610 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.480 that allows you, unless you're gonna be Pelagian, right? 611 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.080 There's some kind of work of God. 612 00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:09.840 Now, some wanna call that regeneration. 613 00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:13.000 There does seem to be something about new covenant rebirth 614 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.600 that that language of regeneration seems to match. 615 00:39:15.600 --> 00:39:17.240 There's definitely something going on. 616 00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:18.880 And that's what I hear you saying. 617 00:39:19.640 --> 00:39:20.480 There's something going on in the Old Testament 618 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.000 where people's wills are liberated. 619 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.920 But I understand Peter and John 620 00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:27.040 to be saved under the old covenant in Acts 1. 621 00:39:27.040 --> 00:39:31.240 Come Acts 2, there is a new covenant salvation that's given, 622 00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:34.000 which is why I'm saying those two things are simultaneous. 623 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.080 And even with the converts who, 624 00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:39.240 the 3,000 that came to salvation that day, 625 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:41.320 even as I read that, 626 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:42.920 I would say their baptism of the spirit 627 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.880 probably happened simultaneous to their conversion. 628 00:39:46.200 --> 00:39:50.120 So maybe Roundtree, you would have some insight on that 629 00:39:50.120 --> 00:39:52.200 that would help me see that more clearly. 630 00:39:52.200 --> 00:39:54.520 But that's how I understand it. 631 00:39:54.520 --> 00:39:55.800 Which one are you talking about? 632 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:57.480 You're talking about Acts 8 with the Samaritans? 633 00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:58.960 No, I'm talking about Acts 2. 634 00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.800 It's the 3,000. 635 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.880 when the 3,000 came to salvation. So I'm still stating those Jews. 636 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.120 I would say that's simultaneous to conversion. 637 00:40:05.120 --> 00:40:11.120 Okay, so both Peter, John, and the surrounding 3,000, 638 00:40:11.120 --> 00:40:14.400 their moment of New Covenant rebirth, they were baptized in the Spirit. 639 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.360 We're all on the same page there? 640 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:21.280 Okay, well, I'm probably different from y'all. I think New Birth existed in the Old Covenant, 641 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:26.000 circumcision of the heart. But I think that the components of, like, the Ezekiel prophecies, 642 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:32.080 the emphasis of the Holy Spirit's role comes into that. But that's a big, long theological debate. 643 00:40:32.080 --> 00:40:34.320 And I see both sides. 644 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.880 Wait, wait. So a couple questions. 645 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.400 This is another fun conversation. 646 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:41.680 Do you believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at conversion? 647 00:40:42.560 --> 00:40:42.880 Yes. 648 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:49.360 In Acts 1, did the apostles have the baptism of the Holy Spirit? 649 00:40:50.240 --> 00:40:50.480 No. 650 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.960 So we agree. Where do we disagree? 651 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.280 No, no. 652 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:57.280 What I'm saying is— 653 00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.840 He's defining it differently from New Covenant. 654 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:06.480 Right. What I'm saying is, Josh, I think you're using conversion only in its association 655 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.920 with the inauguration of the New Covenant and— 656 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:10.960 I'm trying to call it— 657 00:41:12.560 --> 00:41:15.200 But what I'm saying is Peter and John were already converted. 658 00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:21.120 So I'm divorcing the language of conversion from, like, I think they were converted maybe 659 00:41:21.120 --> 00:41:25.280 sometime during Jesus' actual ministry. They might have actually started as unbelievers. 660 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:30.560 I mean, Peter, he declares him. After he sees him walk on water, 661 00:41:30.560 --> 00:41:33.680 isn't that right? He gets down on his knees and says, you know, truly you are. 662 00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:40.240 Yeah. Well, there's a development, like in Matthew's gospel, when Jesus calms the storm. 663 00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:42.720 They're like, who is this who calms the wind and the waves? 664 00:41:42.720 --> 00:41:45.200 And then that's Matthew 8. And then in Matthew 14, 665 00:41:45.200 --> 00:41:47.760 when Jesus calms the wind and waves again, and he walks on water, 666 00:41:48.640 --> 00:41:52.480 they worship him as the Son of God. So there's this development from 667 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.440 they don't know who he is to they worship him as the Son of God. 668 00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:02.000 But either way, at some point, they were converted before Pentecost in my understanding. 669 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:08.800 And so, Josh, whenever I say conversion and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are simultaneous, 670 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.960 I'm saying for us who live outside of the historical time warp of Acts chapter 2. 671 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.840 But for those who lived inside of the historical time warp where the Holy Spirit wasn't given, 672 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:22.960 I'm not going to say nobody was converted at all ever before Pentecost. 673 00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:28.000 They were converted, but the Holy Spirit was given in a new and fresh way. 674 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:34.560 But what I'm trying to guard against is making this the paradigm for all believers everywhere, 675 00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:37.600 rather than acknowledging they lived in a historical time warp. 676 00:42:37.600 --> 00:42:42.800 So yes, the Holy Spirit came subsequent to their coming to faith in Yahweh. 677 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:47.760 In Acts chapter 2, I'm talking about the 120 in the upper room. They knew the Lord already. 678 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:52.880 It was subsequent for them, but that's because the giving of the Spirit was subsequent 679 00:42:53.840 --> 00:43:00.880 in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So I think that ongoingly Acts 10 and 11 provides the paradigm 680 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.640 for baptism of the Holy Spirit and conversion being simultaneous. 681 00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:10.880 That's good. I'm trying to talk in terms of—the reason I've tried to preface my conversation of 682 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:17.360 conversion with New Covenant conversion is because I think it safeguards against that— 683 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:20.960 You're putting a qualifier on there. 684 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:25.760 Yeah. Clearly, Peter and John were converts. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah. 685 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:31.360 They believed that he was the Son of God. They were—he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven. 686 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.200 It's not like Acts 2 was the day that they were like, 687 00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:35.280 you know what? I think this Jesus guy is the real deal. 688 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.200 You know, like they for sure believed he was the guy. 689 00:43:37.600 --> 00:43:43.280 So basically, we traded one debate for another, like what is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? 690 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:44.560 How do we define conversion? 691 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:48.800 That's how every conversation with us goes, though. 692 00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:53.520 Yeah, it's super important that we like, okay, we've got that term, 693 00:43:55.200 --> 00:44:00.560 New Covenant conversion, baptism of the Spirit, simultaneous. And if I use that as the category, 694 00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:06.240 then you go, cool, Acts 2, Cornelius and the Gentiles, there's a consistency with 1 Corinthians 695 00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:11.120 12. That's more of a catch-all. Yes, they were converted in the Old Covenant, but in the New, 696 00:44:11.120 --> 00:44:17.120 something has shifted. And this is why we need to move into our third point on the importance of 697 00:44:18.160 --> 00:44:21.760 the promise of the Spirit. What's the significance of the Day of Pentecost? 698 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:23.200 Miller, do you want to take it away with that one? 699 00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:27.440 Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of places you could start. 700 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:34.080 So the Day of Pentecost was inaugurated in the Old Covenant. So you've got God destroys the 701 00:44:34.080 --> 00:44:39.120 Israelis in Egypt through the plagues and signs. God delivers Israel out of Egypt. On the Day of 702 00:44:39.120 --> 00:44:44.320 Pentecost, Moses officiates a wedding ceremony between God and Israel. The Mosaic Covenant is 703 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:49.920 inaugurated on the Day of Pentecost. So on that day, Israel worships the calf. They get crazy. 704 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:57.040 They start committing idolatry at the foot of Mount Sinai. Moses comes back. And this is the 705 00:44:57.840 --> 00:44:59.840 old history of the world reference for 706 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.480 called Brooks film where he drops the stone tablets, 707 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.360 but that's not what actually happens. 708 00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.160 So anyway, Aaron and the Levites take swords, 709 00:45:07.160 --> 00:45:08.960 they slaughter the 3,000 in the Israeli camp. 710 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.680 So now the new covenant is paralleling this perfectly, 711 00:45:11.680 --> 00:45:12.520 right? 712 00:45:12.520 --> 00:45:14.120 They're all gathered together. 713 00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:15.800 You know, Jesus performed signs and wonders 714 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.120 before the people, just like Moses did. 715 00:45:18.120 --> 00:45:21.520 He defeats our enemies on a grander scale through the cross 716 00:45:21.520 --> 00:45:23.200 and though he heals and delivers, 717 00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:26.000 the new covenant is not instantly inaugurated. 718 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:27.520 Jesus waits for the day of Pentecost 719 00:45:27.520 --> 00:45:29.760 to enact that new and better covenant. 720 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.840 And on that day, there are 3,000 that come to salvation, 721 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:37.040 just like there are 3,000 slaughtered in the camp of Israel 722 00:45:37.040 --> 00:45:38.160 during Moses' time. 723 00:45:38.160 --> 00:45:40.760 So disciples in Acts 1, they were saved, 724 00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:42.720 but they were saved in an old covenant sense. 725 00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:44.200 It's not as if the new covenant believers 726 00:45:44.200 --> 00:45:47.400 were waiting for the baptism of the spirit. 727 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:48.640 Once the new covenant comes, 728 00:45:48.640 --> 00:45:50.440 that is the baptism of the spirit. 729 00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.640 It's fully inaugurated the moment Jesus steps into heaven 730 00:45:53.640 --> 00:45:55.960 and he sends the spirit, so. 731 00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:58.600 That's that. 732 00:45:58.600 --> 00:46:00.600 Do you wanna tackle any of those Old Testament passages 733 00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:03.880 from Ezekiel and the promise of the coming of the spirit? 734 00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:07.440 Sure, so just noting the connection 735 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.360 between the new covenant and the giving of the spirit. 736 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:11.880 So this is Ezekiel 37, 12 to 14. 737 00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:13.440 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 738 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:14.840 thus says the Lord God, behold, 739 00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.800 I will open your graves and raise you up, 740 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:18.800 raise you from your graves, O my people, 741 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:20.200 and I will bring you into the land of Israel 742 00:46:20.200 --> 00:46:21.480 and you shall know that I am the Lord 743 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:24.160 when I open your graves and raise you up from your graves, 744 00:46:24.160 --> 00:46:26.920 O my people, and I will put my spirit within you 745 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.440 and you shall live and I will place you in your own land. 746 00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.000 Then you shall know that I am the Lord. 747 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:35.160 I have spoken, I will do it, declares the Lord. 748 00:46:35.160 --> 00:46:38.440 So there's a lot that we could get distracted here, 749 00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:41.680 such as the coming into the land and all of that, 750 00:46:42.680 --> 00:46:44.960 especially in modern discourse right now. 751 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:48.720 But we're really just trying to laser beam focus 752 00:46:48.720 --> 00:46:53.600 on the connection between the giving of the Holy Spirit 753 00:46:53.600 --> 00:46:57.040 in such a way that he lives inside of us 754 00:46:57.040 --> 00:46:59.560 and what we see in the New Testament. 755 00:46:59.560 --> 00:47:03.600 Next is, as we keep reading a little bit further, 756 00:47:03.600 --> 00:47:04.680 verse 24, it says, 757 00:47:04.680 --> 00:47:07.080 "'My servant David shall be king over them 758 00:47:07.080 --> 00:47:08.880 and they shall have one shepherd 759 00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.320 and they shall walk in my rules 760 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:12.000 and be careful to obey my statutes. 761 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:13.680 And they shall dwell in the land that I gave 762 00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:16.120 to my servant Jacob when your fathers lived. 763 00:47:16.120 --> 00:47:17.760 They and their children, their children's children 764 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:18.840 shall dwell there forever. 765 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:21.160 And my servant David shall be the prince forever. 766 00:47:21.160 --> 00:47:23.280 And I will make a covenant of peace with them. 767 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:24.800 It shall be an everlasting covenant. 768 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.960 I will set their land and multiply them. 769 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.920 It will set my sanctuary in their midst forever. 770 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.320 My dwelling place shall be with them 771 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.040 and I will be their God and they shall be my people. 772 00:47:33.040 --> 00:47:34.640 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord 773 00:47:34.640 --> 00:47:38.000 who sanctifies Israel when my sanctuary 774 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.840 is in their midst forever." 775 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:44.360 So once again, you have this covenant language. 776 00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:46.720 So it actually mentions covenant, covenant of peace, 777 00:47:46.720 --> 00:47:48.480 and they shall be my God and I will be their people. 778 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:52.000 That's a classic covenant type language, 779 00:47:52.120 --> 00:47:54.920 but it's talking about David the shepherd and the king, 780 00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:56.800 which of course David was long gone 781 00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:58.280 by the time Ezekiel was prophesying. 782 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:00.320 So it was talking about King Jesus. 783 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.760 And this does relate to the reuniting 784 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.040 of the Northern and Southern tribes, 785 00:48:04.040 --> 00:48:06.680 which happens by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit 786 00:48:06.680 --> 00:48:09.000 in Acts chapters two and eight on the Jews 787 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:11.920 and the Samaritans, Southern and Northern tribes reunited. 788 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:16.560 So all of this to say, there seems to be this agreement 789 00:48:16.560 --> 00:48:19.080 with the giving of the covenant 790 00:48:19.080 --> 00:48:21.280 and the establishment of the Holy Spirit 791 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:23.200 dwelling inside of his people 792 00:48:23.200 --> 00:48:26.240 as the Messiah is elevated above them. 793 00:48:26.240 --> 00:48:29.320 So just noting those connections is there, 794 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.080 and it's called an everlasting covenant as well. 795 00:48:31.080 --> 00:48:32.600 So this is the new covenant. 796 00:48:32.600 --> 00:48:34.480 And of course you have second Corinthians chapter three, 797 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:36.360 where it's like, hey, the old covenant 798 00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:38.520 was like written on tablets of stone, 799 00:48:38.520 --> 00:48:41.080 but the new covenant is on tablets of human hearts 800 00:48:41.080 --> 00:48:42.080 written by the spirit. 801 00:48:42.080 --> 00:48:45.160 And so you see this new covenant 802 00:48:45.160 --> 00:48:47.800 and connection of the Holy Spirit all throughout, 803 00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:49.720 honestly, the old and the new Testament. 804 00:48:50.200 --> 00:48:53.680 And do you guys wanna make any comments on those verses? 805 00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:56.040 Just to give clarity for why we're bringing them up, 806 00:48:56.040 --> 00:48:57.920 for people who are watching, 807 00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:59.120 okay, so you guys are debating 808 00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:02.280 on what the baptism of the spirit is. 809 00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:04.560 We've kind of walked through, 810 00:49:04.560 --> 00:49:07.200 it looks like it happens at conversion, 811 00:49:07.200 --> 00:49:08.280 but then why does Jesus say, 812 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:10.720 wait in the upper room in Acts one 813 00:49:10.720 --> 00:49:12.760 for the baptism of the spirit? 814 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.520 Well, that's where we're making the big argument. 815 00:49:14.520 --> 00:49:16.960 This is some kind of new Testament conversion. 816 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:18.520 This is a new covenant. 817 00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:20.520 They were saved certainly under the old covenant, 818 00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:21.680 but as you see here, 819 00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:23.200 the day of Pentecost was the day 820 00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:25.640 where that marriage ceremony was inaugurated 821 00:49:25.640 --> 00:49:27.080 between God and Israel. 822 00:49:27.080 --> 00:49:29.120 And then God comes and dies on the cross, 823 00:49:29.120 --> 00:49:31.200 annulling that covenant, Romans seven, 824 00:49:31.200 --> 00:49:32.560 and then raises from the dead 825 00:49:32.560 --> 00:49:35.000 to instill a new and better covenant. 826 00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:36.640 So here comes Jesus saying, 827 00:49:36.640 --> 00:49:39.680 look, in the same way that Moses officiated that ceremony, 828 00:49:39.680 --> 00:49:42.240 here, this is a new marriage ceremony. 829 00:49:42.240 --> 00:49:44.400 The covenant is being inaugurated. 830 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:48.360 So certainly just like Moses delivered Israel 831 00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:50.040 from their enemies, 832 00:49:50.040 --> 00:49:51.200 performed miracles and signs and wonders, 833 00:49:51.200 --> 00:49:52.360 in that same way, 834 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:53.840 Jesus does all of those great things. 835 00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:54.680 He defeats the enemy, 836 00:49:54.680 --> 00:49:56.480 just like God defeats the enemy 837 00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:58.040 and Moses swallowed him up in the sea. 838 00:49:58.040 --> 00:50:00.080 Jesus dies on the cross and defeats Satan. 839 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.240 death, hell, and the grave, right? As the preacher said. So yes, he's done all of those things. He's 840 00:50:04.240 --> 00:50:08.320 done great signs, wonders, and miracles. And yet, the inauguration of the old covenant didn't happen 841 00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:12.640 until after the deliverance. In the same way, after the crucifixion, the new covenant isn't 842 00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:17.600 fully inaugurated until Acts 2. There's a parallel there that's really important. And as we've read 843 00:50:17.600 --> 00:50:23.040 in Ezekiel, the promise of this new covenant is the outpouring of the Spirit. So when we see that 844 00:50:23.040 --> 00:50:29.360 baptism language being used by Jesus, by John the Baptist, they're talking about the new covenant 845 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:35.040 coming to the people of God. So that's the kind of concrete argument there. So someone might be 846 00:50:35.040 --> 00:50:41.840 listening and saying, you guys are just fighting over semantics, right? You're calling this some 847 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:46.400 kind of subsequent experience, a filling, an encounter with the Holy Spirit, but you're not 848 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:50.880 calling it the baptism of the Spirit. Well, what's the difference? Can't we just agree to disagree on 849 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:57.040 the terms that we use? And this is kind of getting to the finer points of is this semantics or not? 850 00:50:57.680 --> 00:51:00.560 What do you guys want to tackle, whether this is semantical? 851 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:05.200 That's probably not the right use of that word. Go for it, Miller. 852 00:51:06.080 --> 00:51:13.440 Oh, I mean, there's a lot to be lost by making the baptism of the Spirit a subsequent experience 853 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:19.040 to salvation. You end up creating two classes of Christians, which is exactly the thing Paul 854 00:51:19.040 --> 00:51:23.760 is trying to avoid in 1 Corinthians 12 when he mentions this baptism of the Spirit. He's trying 855 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:27.840 to say, look, no one gift is better than others. You're not more spiritual because you speak in 856 00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:34.240 tongues. It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or a Greek because this Spirit baptism is what's 857 00:51:34.240 --> 00:51:41.120 united all mankind across all races, all nations, all socioeconomic classes. This is also kind of 858 00:51:41.120 --> 00:51:46.320 the point in Acts 2 when Peter quotes from Joel 2. He says, look, this is going to be poured out 859 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:50.720 on your sons and your daughters, your old men, your young men, your slaves, and your free. 860 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:57.760 The giving of the Spirit is the single greatest unifying factor of all mankind. Those who believe 861 00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:02.400 upon Christ, they get this Spirit, which puts them in the body of Christ, thereby removing 862 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:09.280 all classes and all distinctions. So it's an oddity to have a second blessing theology that 863 00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:14.640 would then disunite those who believe when, in fact, it's all of us who believe who get this 864 00:52:14.640 --> 00:52:20.800 Spirit. So to separate them and create classes with a doctrine, it matters. It's not just 865 00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:27.680 semantics. It actually affects how people live. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I would argue to the 866 00:52:27.680 --> 00:52:33.360 question of, is it just semantics? I actually have a yes and no answer to that. My no answer 867 00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:38.800 is exactly what Miller said. No, we actually need to really parse this out because I've seen the 868 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:44.720 danger of two classes of Christians created where you have the super powerful, tongue-speaking, 869 00:52:44.720 --> 00:52:49.920 awesome Christians and the not so powerful, not tongue-speaking, less sanctified and powerful 870 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.960 Christians. And I find that— We call them muggles. 871 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:00.320 That creates. So I'm like, man, let's rightly divide the word of truth. Let's really dig into 872 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:05.360 this and try to explain the challenges with the narrative text and pull in some of the epistles 873 00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:09.360 and some of the Old Testament prophecies, et cetera. Let's hash this out because it's 874 00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:13.680 not just semantics. It's really important. But I said I'd give you a yes and no. 875 00:53:13.680 --> 00:53:19.440 On the other hand, in a way, it can be just semantics. And here's why I say that. I have 876 00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:23.920 people in my church and always have that believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second 877 00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:28.000 blessing experience, that they received it, that it was this powerful, wonderful encounter, 878 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:33.840 et cetera. And I don't get into arguing matches with them. I'm like, that's fine if you believe 879 00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:39.600 that. I think there's a way of holding on to this doctrine loosely and in a way that doesn't 880 00:53:39.600 --> 00:53:46.800 divide. For instance, I've also known classical Pentecostals who communicated in a way that is 881 00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:52.160 less inclined to create two classes of Christians. I think there are ways to be careful about it. 882 00:53:52.160 --> 00:53:57.280 And so for me as a pastor, I want to make space for people to have different interpretations 883 00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:01.360 on this issue. And hey, we're all just coming together and worshiping the same Jesus by the 884 00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:08.160 same Spirit. And so in that sense, I can say, you know what, it's not like I'm going to go to battle 885 00:54:08.160 --> 00:54:13.120 over this. And so in that sense, I can say, okay, sure, call it semantics. But on the other hand, 886 00:54:13.120 --> 00:54:17.600 in the same breath, I'm going to say, ah, but it's not just semantics because I really am concerned 887 00:54:17.600 --> 00:54:22.160 about the two classes of Christians. So again, I'm going to bring both of those together and say, 888 00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:28.560 hey, we can all worship as one big happy family despite different doctrines on this. And I can 889 00:54:28.720 --> 00:54:32.880 affirm your experience despite my different vocabulary. I might call it the filling of the 890 00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:38.160 Holy Spirit, not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But at the same time, I'm going to say, let's be 891 00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:44.400 real careful. Yeah, I would say on my end, really, if you were to take initial physical evidence 892 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:49.680 out of this conversation entirely, I would say, yeah, it's semantics. It's no big deal. 893 00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:56.160 But it's because baptism of the Spirit as a subsequent experience is taught in such a way 894 00:54:56.160 --> 00:54:59.920 that is evidenced by tongue speech. I go, that 895 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:01.480 That's where we actually have a problem 896 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:04.000 because I've been in churches where pastors have said, 897 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:06.960 I won't let you do door greeting at my church 898 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.320 if you don't speak in tongues 899 00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:11.800 because he would say that the disciples in Acts 900 00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:12.920 were full of the spirit. 901 00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:14.320 And he understands that to be a synonym 902 00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:15.920 for baptism in the spirit. 903 00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.320 So he goes, oh, they needed the baptism of the Holy Spirit 904 00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:20.560 to even serve tables. 905 00:55:20.560 --> 00:55:22.400 So I would even let you serve in my church 906 00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:23.920 if you didn't speak in tongues. 907 00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:25.720 I've heard another pastor in my city say, 908 00:55:25.720 --> 00:55:29.280 I won't disciple you if you don't speak in tongues 909 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:33.120 because Jesus, he couldn't continue his discipleship 910 00:55:33.120 --> 00:55:35.760 process with his 12 disciples, right? 911 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.960 Until they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 912 00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:40.920 I can't do a better job than the Holy Spirit. 913 00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:42.360 Why would I ever disciple someone 914 00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:44.520 who doesn't speak in tongues? 915 00:55:44.520 --> 00:55:45.560 The assemblies of God 916 00:55:45.560 --> 00:55:47.720 and other mainline Pentecostal denominations 917 00:55:47.720 --> 00:55:49.440 won't let you go on the mission field, 918 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.280 won't let you pastor a church if you don't speak in tongues. 919 00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:54.080 And I wanna be clear, I speak in tongues. 920 00:55:54.080 --> 00:55:55.960 I believe in the gift of tongues. 921 00:55:55.960 --> 00:55:57.520 But I think what we end up doing 922 00:55:57.520 --> 00:56:00.840 is robbing the body of Christ of great leaders, 923 00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:02.720 great men and women of God, 924 00:56:02.720 --> 00:56:06.040 because we expect them to be able to do a thing 925 00:56:06.040 --> 00:56:07.520 that Paul goes out of his way to say, 926 00:56:07.520 --> 00:56:10.160 not everyone's gonna be able to do this thing. 927 00:56:10.160 --> 00:56:12.680 So we talk about Navy SEALs, that's it. 928 00:56:12.680 --> 00:56:13.960 I mean, if you pull that out and you say, 929 00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:16.760 hey, you need to seek subsequent experiences with the Lord 930 00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:17.740 for powerful ministry. 931 00:56:17.740 --> 00:56:19.480 I go, sure, that sounds great. 932 00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:24.480 I've encountered the Lord at various times and in many ways. 933 00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:29.480 And I would tell people that that makes me a better me, 934 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:31.280 not that it makes me better than you. 935 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:33.200 Like I have encountered the Lord in such a way 936 00:56:33.200 --> 00:56:35.440 that it changed the way that I preach 937 00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:37.320 or changed the way that I prayed 938 00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:40.280 or had an encounter with the Lord and I saw more healings. 939 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:42.360 I mean, I've had experiences like that, 940 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.000 but that doesn't make me better than someone else. 941 00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:47.000 It does make me better me. 942 00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:48.520 And I would hope that would be the case with others 943 00:56:48.520 --> 00:56:51.680 who seek the power and the presence of God in their life. 944 00:56:51.680 --> 00:56:54.200 Certainly we should all seek and aim 945 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:55.760 to have more of the Spirit 946 00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.000 so ministry would be more effective and more powerful 947 00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:58.000 and more glorifying to God 948 00:56:58.000 --> 00:56:59.600 and more edifying to the church. 949 00:56:59.600 --> 00:57:02.400 So I would say to that, yes and amen. 950 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:03.240 Miller, you've unmuted. 951 00:57:03.240 --> 00:57:05.480 I feel like you have something to say. 952 00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:08.080 Yeah, well, this is where my heart gets tugged on 953 00:57:08.080 --> 00:57:10.120 because when it comes to people feeling hurt, 954 00:57:10.120 --> 00:57:12.880 that's where I'm like, oh, okay. 955 00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.520 I wanna wade into those waters 956 00:57:14.520 --> 00:57:16.600 because I don't want people feeling that way. 957 00:57:16.600 --> 00:57:19.440 But not just for the sake of not feeling that way 958 00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:22.080 because I actually believe it's honest and true. 959 00:57:22.120 --> 00:57:23.720 The fact is there are people 960 00:57:23.720 --> 00:57:25.480 that will not just be disqualified, 961 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:28.640 but would self disqualify because they don't speak in tongues. 962 00:57:28.640 --> 00:57:30.120 I've heard people say, well, 963 00:57:30.120 --> 00:57:32.360 should I really be in ministry in any capacity 964 00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:34.480 if I don't speak in tongues? 965 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:36.640 And that's where you've made one gift, 966 00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:39.840 the preeminent gift above others, which makes no sense. 967 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.320 Anybody can pray. 968 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:43.960 And that's really all tongues is. 969 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:45.840 But tongues is not for the super spiritual. 970 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:48.160 It's for those like me who don't always know how to pray 971 00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:49.720 and I need a lecture help. 972 00:57:49.720 --> 00:57:50.680 That's it. 973 00:57:50.680 --> 00:57:51.920 It's not the preeminent gift. 974 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:53.760 It's just a gift amongst many. 975 00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:57.120 But then also for the person out there who feels like, 976 00:57:57.120 --> 00:57:58.640 earlier I said the words, 977 00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:01.120 there is no such thing as a giftless Christian. 978 00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:04.680 Well, that person may go, well, what gift do I have? 979 00:58:04.680 --> 00:58:06.080 I don't speak in tongues. 980 00:58:06.080 --> 00:58:08.760 And I'd go, you probably have more than one gift. 981 00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:11.000 You just may not recognize what it is. 982 00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.120 There's some gifts we operate in quite naturally, 983 00:58:13.120 --> 00:58:14.080 like Jeff Durbin, 984 00:58:14.080 --> 00:58:16.920 when it comes to the prophetic words that he's gotten. 985 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:18.400 He'd never called them prophetic 986 00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:19.800 because he struggles to believe 987 00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:21.880 that the gifts have continued today. 988 00:58:22.720 --> 00:58:25.040 But he acts as though he's getting prophetic revelation 989 00:58:25.040 --> 00:58:27.440 when it comes to the way he lives his life. 990 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:29.480 Even those who are in cessationist circles, 991 00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:31.080 they still act as though 992 00:58:31.080 --> 00:58:33.440 God is still speaking to them extra biblically. 993 00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.720 They just call it something different. 994 00:58:35.720 --> 00:58:38.160 But I would say that knowing what your gift is 995 00:58:38.160 --> 00:58:40.240 is really a matter of discovery. 996 00:58:40.240 --> 00:58:41.760 If you wanna know if you have a gift of healing, 997 00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:44.520 well, go pray for the sick, see what happens. 998 00:58:44.520 --> 00:58:45.360 If you wanna know 999 00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.040 if you have a gift of interpretation of tongues, 1000 00:58:47.040 --> 00:58:49.440 well, get around somewhere where people speak in tongues, 1001 00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.120 see what happens. 1002 00:58:51.120 --> 00:58:52.880 If you wanna know if you have a gift of prophecy, 1003 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.040 well, pray for people and just say, 1004 00:58:54.040 --> 00:58:57.240 Lord, do you have anything to share with me about them? 1005 00:58:57.240 --> 00:58:58.800 The important thing to note here, 1006 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:00.840 the really thing I'm trying to emphasize 1007 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.600 is all of us who have believed upon Christ, 1008 00:59:04.600 --> 00:59:06.560 trusted in him for the both forgiveness of sins 1009 00:59:06.560 --> 00:59:08.920 and to give us a new life and we call him Lord, 1010 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:10.800 he has blessed us with the spirit. 1011 00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:12.480 And with the giving of that spirit 1012 00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:14.760 means there's ways for us to love the world around us 1013 00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:17.840 with the power of God and ways that only God can do. 1014 00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:20.040 And so that is the joy in front of all of us 1015 00:59:20.040 --> 00:59:20.880 who are Christians. 1016 00:59:21.640 --> 00:59:22.640 It's a great joy and pleasure 1017 00:59:22.640 --> 00:59:25.320 serving God with the gifts that he's given us. 1018 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:26.680 Yeah. 1019 00:59:26.680 --> 00:59:27.520 Yeah, praise God. 1020 00:59:27.520 --> 00:59:28.360 I like it. 1021 00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:30.200 Do you have any closing thoughts? 1022 00:59:30.200 --> 00:59:32.280 Hey, what do you guys think of this? 1023 00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:34.840 This is my definition of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 1024 00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:36.920 You can refine it or give it the thumbs up. 1025 00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.080 So the baptism of the Holy Spirit 1026 00:59:39.080 --> 00:59:41.960 is the promise of the father by the work of the son 1027 00:59:41.960 --> 00:59:44.640 to immerse new believers in the Holy Spirit 1028 00:59:44.640 --> 00:59:47.160 for the purpose of incorporating them into Christ's body 1029 00:59:47.160 --> 00:59:49.280 and receiving his power. 1030 00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:54.000 Man, I think your chat GBT prescription 1031 00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:54.840 or what do you call that? 1032 00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:57.080 Subscription is finally paying off. 1033 00:59:57.080 --> 00:59:58.280 Good job. 1034 00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:00.040 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 1035 01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:03.000 Okay, I think it's pretty good. 1036 01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:05.000 Grok, sorry, whatever it is. 1037 01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.000 Anyway, I think it's good, I think it's good. 1038 01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.000 Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Remnant Radio. 1039 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:14.000 I hope you enjoy the conversation and video clips like this. 1040 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:18.000 Hey, if you're out there and you have not already, can I just encourage you to, 1041 01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:21.000 man, register for our new conference this fall? 1042 01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:23.000 Here's a quick clip from it. 1043 01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:24.000 I'll pull it over. 1044 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:28.000 We got to be a people empowered. 1045 01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:34.000 Empowered with healings and miracles and signs and wonders and prophecies and revelations 1046 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:39.000 because the Spirit is poured out on all flesh, not just special people. 1047 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:44.000 We got a conference coming up this fall in Houston, Texas. 1048 01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.000 I encourage you to come out and check it out. 1049 01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:50.000 Go over to TheRemnantRadio.com to see about location, time. 1050 01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.000 All that fun stuff can be found over there on the website. 1051 01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:54.000 The conference is on healing and deliverance. 1052 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:57.000 So we'll be talking about what the Bible says about the gift of healing, 1053 01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:00.000 what the Bible says about deliverance and Lord willing, 1054 01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:03.000 we've got a bunch of prayer workers that are going to be down there with us, 1055 01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:06.000 people we've trained in the WSSM School of Ministry. 1056 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.000 We're going to be out there praying for folks, 1057 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:11.000 asking God to perform signs, wonders, and miracles and stretch forth his hand 1058 01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:14.000 and perform these things through his holy servant, Jesus. 1059 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:17.000 So you guys, man, if you're interested in checking that stuff out, 1060 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:22.000 learning more about the spiritual gifts and or seeing, experiencing those things demonstrated, 1061 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:24.000 Lord willing, that would be a great place for you. 1062 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:27.000 So go check it out this October in Houston, Texas. 1063 01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:29.000 Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. 1064 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:31.000 Subscribe, like the video, and we'll see you next time.