I'll tell you when. Oh, it's taking long. Hopefully my internet's okay.
My screen says now live, streaming live on Facebook.
Oh, we're live. Oh, we're live.
Okay, hello. Welcome everybody to the Kingdom Economic Masterclass.
We've had a few technical difficulties, so sorry if we are a little bit late.
Just to recap what's been happening, we've had people all over the world tune in with us
and we've been going over, you know, God's heart for finances. We started with your big vision,
like the God-sized vision and dream that he has for you, and then we talked about
economic alignment and then economic climate. And so once you've graduated from those things,
we really want to dive into economic reformation today, and who better to talk than the most
joyful Bible teacher I know, who is the Pastor Bruce MacDonald. Welcome, welcome.
Thank you, thank you. So glad to be with you.
So Bruce has actually written a book on money, so this is perfect for him to speak to us and really
impart some training and teaching today. And I really would like Bruce to actually pray for us,
because sometimes you can be taught, but we want to catch it. And for those that are hungry to
learn, to grow, to really step into everything that God has for you, get ready to receive.
So Bruce, take it away. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love to pray with you all. It's just a delight
to be able to have some quality time to talk about this all-important subject. Heavenly Father,
we just want, aside from inviting each other to participate in this time, we want to invite
your great Holy Spirit to come. We want to just invite you, Holy Spirit, to
talk through the words that are shared to help us to understand the important things that you're
wanting us to know. We thank you, Lord God, that the Bible is a phenomenal
master text on money stuff. And so we just pray that we're open a little bit more today,
we'll understand a little bit more today, we'll get more excited about what the plans that you
have for each one of us in regard to economics. So we just commit this time to you and one another
to you in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. Okay, so Bruce, what is your money story?
And what got you involved in writing this book? What can you impart to us today? I want you just
to release the fire and everything that you've learned so that we can go for it too. Thank you
so much for the invitation. When you ask a question like that, it's always a bit of a challenge to
know where should I begin. But I think for me that the thing that will help people most is to start
from 1987, a long time ago. But in 1987, a number of interesting things happened in New Zealand.
For me personally, the fact that New Zealand won the very first Rugby World Cup, that was big.
The second thing was that I'm from the Bay of Plenty and there was a significant earthquake
down in that part of New Zealand at that time and really rocked all of our world. In fact,
we used to talk a lot about it until Christchurch had their earthquake. Now we don't talk about
ours anymore. But the third thing that happened is that there was an economic recession.
And the number one effect in New Zealand that I was conscious of was that interest rates
just soared. I had people in my church, in fact I think my wife and I, our first mortgage,
we were paying 16.5% interest. And I had people in my church with second mortgages of 22%.
Now if you could try and translate that into today, in Auckland city there would be hundreds
of families who would become insolvent within weeks if they were paying that level of interest
on their mortgages. And even though it wasn't exactly like that in 1987, the pain in New Zealand
was real. But you know, Zania, it was interesting because I was just a young pastor
and our church was in an incredible season. We were seeing people become Christians all the time
and we were baptizing people all the time. And I guess I didn't really focus until one of my elders
came to me and he said, Bruce, you do realize that our people are really hurting, don't you?
And I guess it's
my attention. So I started to really make it a matter of prayer. At that time, I was given a
series of tapes by a man by the name of Larry Lee. If people are taking notes today, they should write
that name down. And he put a series on the Lord's Prayer. And of course, when you get to the third
part of the Lord's Prayer, it's give us this day our daily bread. And I'd always prayed that prayer
as a sort of religious formula. I always thought it was a prayer of desperation. You know, if you're
short of money, then you cry out to God, give us this day our daily bread. But the way Larry taught
it, different to anything I'd ever heard. And he taught it that it was literally put your foot
down. It was a demanding prayer. It was kind of give us this day our daily bread. It wasn't begging
God. It was a prayer of demand, of command. I'd never heard of that. And the point that he made
was this, and it was a really good point. He says, do we believe that God wants us to have our daily
bread? I'd say yes. Second question, do we want to receive our daily bread? Yes. So if God
wants to give it, we want to receive it. Where's the problem? And he pointed out that the problem
is that there's a thief. The devil is a thief. And so he steals. And so it's not a case of us
begging God. It's a case of us demanding from the evil one that we receive what God has for us.
Well, I began to pray that on a daily basis. And I want to say I was aggressive. I was aggressive.
And I suppose about three months went past with me praying, give us this day our daily bread,
putting my foot down. And this one particular morning, I need to just describe it as honestly
as I can. All of a sudden, there was just like this presence came down. It came down from the
ceiling and it just came right over me. And in moments like that, you can almost think any word
I'm going to say now is going to be the wrong word. So I just went silent. And I heard the voice
of God say to me, enough, Bruce, I heard you. I just went off to church buzzing because I really
felt I'd heard God. And about 10 o'clock in the morning, one of the ladies in the church came in
and she asked me how I was. I said, I'm brilliant. I'm absolutely fabulous. And she said, well, why?
And I said, well, I had this incredible time of prayer this morning. So anyway, she said,
what were you praying for? And I said, look, I was praying about the mortgages of people in the
church. I was praying about the economic system in our country and the difficulty that so many
families are in. Well, she was angry. She kind of looked at the ceiling, gave this kind of little
look. And then she said, it's time, isn't it, father? And I said, oh, time for what? And so
she said, it's time for me to tell you something. I've been praying about it and I think God has
given me an answer. So I said, well, you better tell me because I don't know what the answer is.
And she began to unpackage this idea. And I won't go into it now because our time is relatively
limited to say that the idea that she gave me was the seed for Liberty Trust. And for those who may
be listening who don't know what Liberty Trust is, it's a charitable trust that teaches Bible
principles of finance. And then it has a model of how that might look like by having created a
community of interest who all contribute money into a common pool. And then as the pool builds
up, we refinance people's loans on their homes, their mortgages, interest-free. So as at two weeks
ago, we finally loaned out, we got over the top of $60 million New Zealand loan, interest-free.
And we have a trust fund now of $20 million, which all it does is just refinance. It just
goes around in a big circle. It gives interest-free loans, people repay those loans and it goes out.
And so, you know, here we are a little over 30 years down the track, we've loaned $60 million.
Within 10 years, it will be, no, sorry, within 20 years, it will be more like $100 million
loaned interest-free to New Zealand families, New Zealand churches to help them to own property and
to be debt-free. So it's a pretty, it's been a really exciting journey as you can imagine.
And it's stimulated me to learn a whole lot of stuff about how much the Bible is a financial book.
Yeah. And so people can learn more about on the Liberty Trust website.
Yeah, absolutely. If people want to go to the website, just www.libertytrust.org.nz,
it would answer all the questions. And my goodness, you know,
Zalia, wouldn't it be great if somebody from Australia were listening and they started one?
Wouldn't it be great if somebody from Africa would start? We are all about multiplication.
So we've been talking about, you know, aligning your heart with
that revelation of prayer. And then you started aligning with that, with what God wanted.
And that the testing process, there must have been a testing process where God was like,
I heard you, I see you're faithful. And then you step into reformation, which is like you
started creating opportunities for others. Can you speak more on kind of the motivation,
the heart around reformation and creating opportunities for others and why our money
isn't just for us and our families, but for the wider kingdom and the world impact?
Yeah, I would so love to talk about that. I just think that, you know, when we see something in
God's word, when it comes alive to us, one of the questions I think we should always be asking is,
Lord, I can see this. What can't I see? What haven't I seen? And one of the things that I'm,
no, just two or three things I think I'd just like to drop into people's ears. Number one,
there are around about 500 verses in the Bible on prayer, about 500. There are around about
350 verses on faith. Now, two really important topics. But on the area of money, there's around
about 2,350 verses. It's a major Bible theme. And often Christians shy away from talking about
money. Absolutely. And often because of we've misquoted a scripture and we say money is the
root of all evil. The Bible never says that. The Bible says the love of money is the root of all
evil. But you know, we need to understand that while money is a terrible master, it is a
wonderful servant. It's supposed to serve us. It's supposed to serve our destiny. It's supposed
to serve our future. It's supposed to serve our family. And we need to teach it to serve us.
Love it. So you mentioned that I've written a book. It probably is more, if I'm being more honest,
it's probably a booklet. It's short. And I wrote it short because it's written for young people
because it's kind of, you know, Zania, it's kind of the book, the things that I wish somebody had
told me when I was younger. And it's called The Four Purposes for Money. Yeah, and I think
that would be cool for us to all, you know, invest in ourselves by getting a booklet that's simple
because then you can teach those same things to other people. Yes, that's certainly been my
dream. I always pray that if somebody reads the book, the next time they hear it taught, it's
because they're teaching it. Yeah, well, you're here for such a time as this. And I love that you
touched on the recession of the, and when the interest rates, you know, were rising. And,
you know, we are in unsure, uncertain times at the moment. And maybe that was like a little
kind of hint from God about, you know, what could be coming in the future. You never know. So
really looking into your money and your finances and that kind of thing is a good
thing right now, right? Absolutely. I think that even, you know, where we started off talking about
praying that prayer, if all of those who were listening got honest and say, well, how long
is it since I prayed, give us this day our daily bread? Second question, if I pray that prayer,
how do I pray it? Do I pray begging God? Am I asking him for something that he's already said
he would give me? And have I actually put my foot down and said, recognize that there's a thief and
I need to take issue with him? Tania, I don't know whether you know this, but it's a wonderful
statistic. Jewish people make up around about 4% of the population of the U.S., about 4%.
But they hold about 40% of the wealth. I love that you touched on that because that was the
training last night. So if anyone missed the session before, definitely dive into that training
because if we implement those principles, the biblical principles, who knows what God can do
with our life? Absolutely right. God, you know, sometimes when people hear that, they say, well,
that's because God, the Jewish people are God's chosen people. But listen, last time I read my
Bible, we're God's chosen people.
people so it's not just about it's not just being his chosen people they actually know
some principles and i i'm about three quarters the way through my next book and my next book
is going to be called uh the title is living as a circle inside a square it's going to look at
how the jewish people do the money thing because there are principles that they can apply or they
do apply that we need to apply and will change our economy forever i love it so three homework
um is to take home with us would be to pray that prayer uh yeah i would definitely encourage
everyone because i i think that what will happen is that you know if you've got a heart for for
connecting with god on the money thing that will that will begin to connect you with that destiny
praying that prayer day by day connects us with that destiny because we're starting to pray the
heart of god that would be the first thing the second the second thing we haven't really
touched on but i believe that people have to learn the four purposes for money and apply them they
need to spend of course we can't avoid that they need to give they need to save and then they need
to invest they need to do four things with all the money they get and um they need to do that with
all the money they get that's the second that's the second thing that i think is is critically
important and then realize that the bible has a lot more to say than we've yet discovered and start
to become creative and say to god i know what i can see what am i not seeing what's in your word
that i don't see that i need to see and if people would begin to pray that i think it would be
surprising what god will begin to show us i love it well thank you so much bruce for joining us i
do have one more question and i'm i hope i'm not going over time i didn't actually time this
if you could have if you could just take the lid off people um right now so that they could dream
bigger and have a greater god-sized vision for what's possible with their life with when money
is stewarded and multiplied in their life what would you say like how could you help them take
off that limit what would you like that's kind of a big picture question isn't that's a that's a
wonderful wonderful question i think that i think that we have to believe that god has a a plan for
us beyond where we're at right now and i don't know whether you know this but the words one
another appear in the new testament about a hundred times and i live with the philosophy asp all shall
prosper that through my life others should prosper as well and once we get a hold of that like one of
my more recent um prayers for example as i say lord i want to be able to give every day of my life
365 days a year i don't want to just give what you know if we give once a week that's 52 times
a year if we give twice a week that's 104 times what wouldn't it be wonderful if we've got such a
flow of money coming to us and then going through us that we're literally giving as almost like a
daily expression of our life but it's my prayer before i die lord before i die i want to give
every day i want to be i don't want to be a receptacle i want to be a piece of pipe i want
money to come through me and flow and if people begin to get the fact that god will use us like
that what an adventure yeah that was so gold bruce um i will love and leave you and thank you so much
and i really hope people dive into the liberty trust and your booklet um oh that was so gold
for us to be generous to live generous you know at the end of my day that i would be
known by god as a generous person okay love you so much love you team we'll see you on the next
session with an interview with marina who has an amazing transformation story with money love you
thank you