It has been a couple of weeks.
It's good to have you all back.
I know on the last call,
we talked about how to be a brilliant project manager,
and that's a tool that teaches us
how to very quickly build trust and manage expectations,
not just for ourselves as project managers,
but also for our team.
And so this is really important because what you deliver
and how you deliver it really does matter.
So we wanna become known for being people
who do what we say we'll do, when we say we'll do it,
and that is the perfect tool for it.
And so today we are talking about
how to manage three different types of people
and strategies for dealing with poor behavior.
But just before we dive in,
I do have a pro tip for you today,
and it's all about setting the rhythm for deep work.
And so I know at this point,
we've gotten in the practice of it,
and we know deep work is so critical
for bringing our great contributions to the team,
for our ability to innovate and be creative.
And so in order to get the most out of deep work,
we do have to really develop our ability to focus
for longer periods of time.
And my challenge for you all this week
is to set aside one bucket for deep work
and to be sure to practice inversion.
So inversion is where we are bringing something
that we love into the deep work session with us.
And for example, I love to set a candle
and pour myself a hot cup of tea.
That is kind of my trigger to remember,
okay, we're going into deep work.
And why we're doing that is we're teaching ourselves
how to reframe and really love deep work.
And that's how we make any rhythm into a lifestyle.
So the pro tip for today is to try out some element
of inversion this week,
and then let us know next week how it goes.
So if everyone is ready to dive in,
just one quick reminder as we're going through the material,
do be sure to put your questions in the chat.
I'll be helping Dionne monitor that
so we can make sure we get to any questions.
And with that, Dionne, I will hand it over to you.
Thanks, Jalen.
That was good.
I should just let you keep going.
You're on a roll.
So yeah, these are powerful techniques.
And I love how when we put all these together,
they don't make our life more complex.
They make our work feel more effortless.
And because what we're doing is we're going
with our natural wiring,
and that helps us to be able to take maximum advantage
of what it is we're doing.
So today I'm going to deal with something
that I have probably seen leaders struggle the most with
when it comes to leading different types of people.
And if you're a kind-hearted person
and you find it very difficult to,
you don't want to be mean to people,
you want to be known as the person who's kind-hearted
and as a leader, that's the kind of reputation you want.
Nonetheless, I have seen so many people struggle
with this issue.
And here's the reason is that we take this idea
that we want to treat others how we want to be treated.
And while that is an overall general coverage idea
that's good, there's a lot of nuance to that,
that it's worth taking the time to break out
and to realize that there are really three types of people
that you're going to lead.
And why we like to do this as an entire group,
not just with the main leader, the CEO of the company,
the reason we do this with everyone
is so that you can also see how you're being perceived.
And this will also help you in your own career
to position yourself correctly and to be a better team player
or at least to know when you're hitting certain components,
as I'll explain in a second.
So, when we're leading a team, right?
There's always that person, you know what I mean?
There's always that person in the team
that just makes our job a little more difficult
or sometimes very difficult.
And sometimes they have the ability
to like suck the joy out of everything you're doing.
You know that person, right?
And don't point fingers, just watch, right?
Don't tag anyone.
The idea here is we're sitting thinking about that,
how do we manage that person?
And in one part of my career,
I did a lot of, initially a lot of CEO consulting.
So I'd go into a company
and then I would help restructure the whole business
from the board, you know, to what legal entity it is,
how to set up the management team
and do the whole thing end to end.
And there was always that person.
And that person was the one that would create,
they're usually pretty noisy, they're very scratchy,
you know what I mean by that?
You don't want to go near them
and there's always grinding involved.
They just seem to be difficult to manage,
to position, to lead.
And so, you know, and sometimes.
the rest of the team feels, man, our team would be so much better if that person was easier to lead.
And so we're going to talk about how to deal with that person. And, you know, here's a bit
of the weird thing of all this. At some point or another, maybe we've all been that person.
You know, maybe we've all had our moment of not too smart, being difficult, and pulled back
afterwards. You know, I really didn't need to be that difficult about that. So this is about really
talking about all of us in some degree or another. So but as a leader, having having tools in your
toolbox to know how to deal with the three types of people, knowing what identifies them in that
group, and then knowing what strategy is best in terms of leading that person. So, you know,
when it comes to reality, the first job, one of the first jobs, we always say the first job of a
leader is to define reality as it is, not as we hope it will be. And so sometimes we just have to
call the thing bluntly what it is, as a leader, it doesn't mean we're being negative, we just got to
be very, very clear about what it is. And when you do that at a company level, that's one thing. But
when you have to do it for an individual, that kind of feedback can be hard to hear. And I was
always fascinated by the fact that Elon Musk brings up the point that he always invites negative
feedback from his friends and from his some people who work closely with him. And he's and his reason
is, he said, Look, I love hearing the positive stuff. And you know, it's encouraging all that,
but the stuff that I grow from the stuff that really helps me get there is the negative feedback.
And so how do we give really helpful negative feedback to people, you know, who are being
difficult to lead or are causing, you know, problems. So we all know that when you get a
group of people together, you're going to have problems, you know, so if you find the perfect
company, don't join it, because you'll mess it up. So don't do that. So you know that the reason is
where that we all just people and when you put a bunch of people together, you're just going to
have stuck, we have different backgrounds, different ways we're raised different ways,
we think confrontation should work, we have different ideas about what the work environment
should be. But as the leader, it's your job to set the atmosphere and to set the rules of
engagement to set the rules about how we work together. And so I want to pick three categories
of people. And I love if you've read any Henry Cloud books, boundaries for leaders, any of those
kind of necessary endings to the books of his I really like been very interested in Henry Cloud's
view of the shaping of leaders. And, and so he uses a classification, which we'll borrow for
the sake of this conversation. And he calls them the the wise, the foolish and the evil.
And so here's the thing, it's not that somebody is always wise, or always foolish, always evil,
we just have modes on days or in some stages of our life, maybe when we're going through a
difficult thing, where we might be foolish in an area. So how do we know the wise, you know,
how do we know somebody is wise? Well, you can tell when somebody is wise, because when you
approach them with negative feedback, they immediately own the problem. That's the big
indication, they own it immediately. In fact, many times, they'll even thank you. And you'll go and
say, Hey, john, are you aware that in meetings, you've, you know, you speak over people, you're
very dominant, sometimes, and when you have opinions, you don't like to let other people
explain their different points of view than you have, or you where you do that, and they look at
you surprised, go, I had no idea. Thank you so much for telling me, you know, wow, okay, I got it.
And especially if you've got two or three examples, like this morning at the nine o'clock meeting,
you know, so and so said this, you said that, and you've got real examples. And we've talked in past
trainings about how to give that feedback, we're dealing with what are the strategies we're going
to employ once we give the feedback. So we're taking that idea that we talked on last time to
the next level, when somebody owns the feedback straight away, you're dealing with a wise person.
And so, you know, they are willing to adjust themselves to the truth that you're presenting,
it may not be the truth, but it's the truth you're presenting, and they're willing
to be flexible enough to adjust to your truth. What they don't do is fight you about what the
truth is. Well, that's just your perception. That's just what you think that I have a different
opinion, and all that sort of thing. And, and they see this feedback as a gift. So there's a certain
humility to this, to this person. And so, you know, that's how we can tell immediately we're
dealing with a wise person, when we're dealing with a foolish person, there's
always deflection. So the first one is ownership. The second is
deflection, they deflect, they avoid ownership at all costs,
it's always someone else's fault. You didn't send me the
email, I never got the memo, nobody told me. Now, here's the
weird thing. They're often the smartest person in the room. Not
just that they think they're smart, but it's often they
actually are the smartest person in the room. Often they're the
high producers. And so when the truth comes out, you know, when
when you want to shine the light on them, so to speak, you know,
it's like the light hurts their eyes. So they try to dim the
light. That's the image I have, you know, when you go to a wise
person, you shine the light, they look at what you're doing,
they look at where you're shining on their lives, and they
say, Oh, my, thank you. That's really helpful. But a foolish
person does try to divert the light. And if they can't do
that, they try to dim the light. Well, I just think you're
overstating, it's not that serious. You know, it's very
dismissive, dismissive. It's not really a big deal. I mean, we
all do that, right? We all talk like that. Hey, it was just a
bad day. You know, sometimes I get enthusiastic. That's one of
my favorite ones. Well, you know, I'm a very passionate
person. No, you're really annoying when you do that. So
you know, that type of thing. Well, it's just I'm just
passionate. And so it's all the dim the lights methods. So
they're very smart, very capable. And so they will deny
the seriousness of the issue, almost making it out like you're
making a mountain out of nothing. And so and one of the
things I noticed that almost always are annoyed or angry. And
often, you know, then they end up with a meeting after the
meeting, you know, the one that happens at the water cooler or
down the hallway, and they end up talking about, you know, this
meeting with someone else, or there's a meeting after the
meeting. And so they often leave you as the leader feeling a
little bit hopeless, or like, hey, man, I really didn't. I
didn't didn't make any progress here. So the issue here is not
so much what you've done here. It's the way that they received
your feedback. Now, if you did your feedback poorly, fairly
enough, but I'm going to assume based on other training, you
know how to give the feedback. And we want to talk through, you
know, when we're dealing with this foolish person. And again,
it's not that they're foolish in every area. It's just in this
area, this one area, they're being foolish. And so don't let
them dim the light. Don't let them deflect the light. Let them
stand serious. Don't let them diminish the seriousness of the
matter. You hold your ground as a leader, because that's your
position. Now, if they genuinely, you can see this
humility. And in the humility, you realize, oh, you know what,
maybe maybe I'm overstating this a little bit. But
nonetheless, usually, as you know, from the previous
training, you're going to have very precise examples of so
you're going to go there, hey, on this day, this happened on
this day, this happened. And I wanted to have two or three
examples so that you knew the extent of what I'm saying.
Because here's the weirdest thing about this. If you give
feedback to wise people, even if they're wise, and they own the
problem, and you don't give precise examples, what will
happen with a wise person is they'll sort of over, they'll
overdo their response in the sense of, they'll think that
it's way bigger than it actually is. So the wise person will tend
to amplify the problem unless you give very precise examples
so that you go no, no, no, no, I'm not saying view that it's
not that big, just tone it down. We're just talking about this
one thing, the foolish person goes the other way, they
diminish the problem, and try to make it smaller than it is. So
therefore, having actual examples of what you're talking
about in your feedback, hey, I appreciate contributions you
make. But here's one area of growth, we need to talk about
this thing that you do. And then the last category is evil. This
is when people are threatening. Well, you know, if you get
words like I'm going to call my lawyer or any of that sort of
threatening language, you are in a completely different strategy.
When I was a younger leader, I misjudged the importance of
identifying these threatening, this threatening type of talk.
And you know, that can, that can range. So when you hear threats,
you know, there's a different strategy than what you do with
the other two. And we'll talk about that, you know, in just a
second. So here's the bottom line, I'd love you to learn from
this or take from this as a model for your leadership moving
forward is you just because you are a certain type of person,
you can't lead everybody in the same way. You have to have more
breadth to your leadership, you have to have more substance to
your leadership, you can't have a, well, I'm like this, and I'm
going to treat everybody like me. So each of
us, you know, we all have, we've all at different parts of our careers, encountered difficult
people. And I'm not talking about people, again, who are necessarily difficult all the time, I'm
talking about that moment of foolishness, call it and maybe a kinder word would be an area of
blindness, they're just blind as to what they're doing in one area, they don't realize how they're
coming across. And if you go back to the previous training, we've talked about, you know, the art
of mastering difficult conversations around this. And so, you know, as you're sitting thinking about
these three types of people, I created in a little worksheet, a little cheat sheet for you,
that you can look it up. So let's just, let's just create a very simple sort of table. So the
table in the in the columns are going to have wise, foolish, evil. And then in the in the other
three columns are going to be what's the indicator? What's the strategy? What's the outcome, indicator,
strategy, outcome, and then with that map, we're going to figure out so let me fill that out again,
indicator, strategy, and outcome at the top. And then down the side, it's wise, foolish, evil, and
then that matrix, we're going to fill out that little spreadsheet. So how do you know you're
speaking to someone wise, we already talked about they own the problem, there's that immediate sense
of ownership, they'll thank you. And so what's the strategy for somebody who immediately owns the
problem? The strategy is growth and development. Okay, well, let's talk about a growth strategy.
Let's talk about how you can do that better. Here's a program, or let's work together. Why don't we
meet for, you know, why don't we meet for 30 minutes once a week, and we'll talk about how
I can help you or here's, you know, you can put them on a program, the point is you help them grow.
So the strategy is growth. And the outcome is you just have a wiser person. For the foolish person,
the indicator is deflection, deflection, minimizing, you know, trying to make the light
go away or make the light less. So deflection. Now, the strategy here is containment,
you have to contain this person. Why? Because of the outcome you want is self awareness. So I'll
give an example. I had a team that I had to lead an investment group that did international
foreign exchange transactions. And it was an AI technology that traded, you know,
forex currencies, and so on. I say all that to say it was a very complex and very technical business.
On the one side, you had very complex AI. On the other side, you had a lot of regulatory controls.
And then in addition to that, you had a very complex issues around geopolitical movements of
what forces currencies to trade against each other. And so I had two people on this team,
both who had over 30 years experience. And with these two guys, who are both VP level people,
would get into it with each other in meetings, and it would get pretty heated. But as almost always,
the same guy who would sort of wind everything up, and the minute you challenged him, he went
straight into I've been doing this for 30 years, and I'm the you know, whatever, he did that game.
And which, by the way, is, you know, is just appeal to illegitimate authority. But anyway,
he would play this little game. And so I started talking to him, I said, Are you aware
that in meetings? Well, that's because, you know, john over there is always
doing this, and he's an idiot, and he doesn't know what he's doing. And you know, I have to
work with, you know, basically, he was this genius, and he had to put up with all us. And
again, I said to you, often the foolish person is the smartest person in the room. Just to give an
example, this guy was I met him at an international finance conference, where he was one of the he was
the keynote speaker. And he had been running his own and done advisory, I watched him literally
debate three senior bank executives, Credit Suisse, Bank of America CEO, I loved watched him
debate them under the table. He was he's really smart. And here he is doing his little deflection
thing. And I said, Look, you know, we've done this training, right? He said, Yeah, I know,
you're going to do the whole deflection. I said, all you're doing, you haven't owned a single
thing yet is well, you know, and he just, you're making too much of it, the usual stuff. So I said,
Okay, here's the deal. From now on, in each meeting, you get to ask one clarifying question.
At some point in the meeting, once you've said that you can say nothing more.
If we don't, if you don't keep to that, I'm not going to allow you to come to these
meetings for a month. But for the next month, you get one clarifying question.
I mean, he was outraged, you know, at my seniority, and I'm treated like a child. I mean,
literally lost his, you know, you know, he lost his marbles, and he was upset. He was truly upset.
And so then he proceeded the very next meeting to ignore all
that. So I said, Okay, we're amping it up. Remember how I
said you can't come to meetings for a month, you can't come to
meetings for a month. And after that, he could come to meetings
and say nothing for another month. Then he got his one
question back the month after that. He was livid out of his
mind. But what I noticed is one of two things happen, it either
causes a separation, and they go their own way, or they start to
become self aware. In his case, fortunately, he became self
aware. And as we got into a couple of months down the road,
he got to the point where he was asking his clarifying question.
And then he started to become very respectful and saying,
Look, I'm not trying to be difficult now. I just want to
make sure we understand this. And when somebody got upset with
him, he said, Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to use that tone.
And he suddenly became self aware. And about a year later, I
was doing his, I was doing his evaluation of how he was doing.
Because the year previously, I asked him to rate himself on
his people skills from one to 10. And he said he was a nine.
And I told him he was a one. And that really had a fun
conversation. So three were not on the same page. And so, but a
year later, he said, Yeah, maybe I'm a three or four. I know I
thought it was a nine, but I'm not so sure anymore. I said, No,
I really think you're coming along. And this time I had a
slightly higher rating than he had for himself. So what happens
in these scenarios, when you are dealing with that foolish
behavior in a person containment, hey, you at the
Christmas party, you got out of control, you drank too much. And
every time we have these events, this is the second third event
where you've done this. So you don't get to come to the
Christmas party, or you come to the Christmas party, you get
don't get to drink any alcohol or whatever the problem is. So
containment, so you contain them, why to bring about
self awareness, you don't bring them growth strategies. Most
novice leaders do this, no matter what the problem is, they
just what if I grow and I invest in the person, they'll become
better? No, they will not. Because you haven't come to the
point of self awareness yet. You can only help someone grow with
self aware. Whereas one pastor said, you know, grace is for the
repentant. The management leadership equivalent is growth
is for the self aware. So don't just use growth strategies for
everyone. That's not the case. For the evil people, the
indicators, there's threats, there's threatening behavior in
some form. And the strategy here is protection. What kind of
protection, call the lawyers, call the police, do what you
have to do. And the outcome here is separation. Once you are at
that point, you are in an abusive situation. And there is
no growth strategy, maybe even no containment strategy that's
going to help here. This is particularly brutal with
narcissistic people who are so and if you don't know what a
narcissist is, that's definitely worth looking up because I bet
you know, one or two. And, you know, and I've watched
particularly in like divorce cases where Christian families
and all the rest, but suddenly they hit this situation. And
the containment was tried didn't work and resulted in terrible
threats. And so in that situation, protection is all
you've got. And it's sad when that's what we've got left is,
you know, you know, lawyers and police and so on. So I'm going
to assume for the sake of our conversation, that for the most
part, you're not dealing with any evil issues for the for this
conversation. If you are, you know what to do about that. And
for the but the harder one is what to do with the foolish
person. Here's the bottom line as a leader. At some point, you
have to master the art of difficult conversations. And
here's what really helps me I think, am I being kind by not
giving them this feedback? And the answer is no, I am not being
kind. I'm not being kind or loving by not giving them
truthful feedback. So the idea that I'm being kind by
softening and over overlooking poor performance, poor behavior,
especially if it's somewhat disruptive to the organization
or even destructive to the organization, I have to speak
up. Second, if I really want to be kind, then I'm going to also
be really direct. It's only kind when it's direct. It's not
kind when you say it so softly, they don't even feel corrected.
Because foolishness, remember, needs self awareness and self
awareness needs very direct conversation.
So I found that, you know, we've all learned about the sandwich effect, right? Give them a compliment,
bring the negative thing in, and then give them a compliment. Everybody heard that. I think we've
talked about that ourselves. Yeah, that only works for the first group. That works for wives. It
doesn't work for foolish people. And the reason is they use the two pieces of the bread, the two
positive elements, as a means to deflect and diminish the issue. So I have found that the most
direct thing, you can just sit down right at the bed and say, John, we have a problem. What's the
problem? When you're in meetings, this has occurred. This has happened on this case, this case, and this
case. And then they start talking, saying, when I'm finished speaking, then I'm going to give you
an opportunity. Because you can see there's already pushback. So I'll make sure that I've
finished saying what I want to say. And then I wait to hear what I'm dealing with. But sometimes
they'll surprise you and go, OK, no, I can see that. All right. And you know this. But there are
the hardest ones, or what I call the clever foolish people. They know what they have to say.
They know the answer you're looking for. And they go, OK, you know, yeah, yeah, no, I can kind of
see that. And I go, that's not ownership. That's just very clever deflection. And I go, yeah,
that's not enough. I need you to own this. This is what ownership looks like. I need you to own this.
Well, I'm not going to own that. You know, we all do. And then out comes the real deflection.
So I found that it's only kind when it's really direct. And the second thing, it's only kind
when it's insistent. John, I'm insisting that you take responsibility for this issue.
When you're doing that, I found that part of the insistence is, and I'm insisting because
it's having an impact on the team this way. It's having an impact on your performance this way.
And John, you're misrepresenting yourself. You've got these other strengths. But in this,
it clouds everything you do. This is the way you seem. And I don't think that's really who you are.
So you can give them a lot of ways out. So I wanted to just take a second and say,
if any of you are dealing with feedback, anybody have to do, you know, quarterly reviews,
half annual reviews or whatever it is. I know we haven't got to the review stuff yet,
but we'll get to that. But if you're doing the reviews, there has to be a moment when you now,
if you're again, if you're dealing with a wise person, and then you say, hey, man,
I've found this area, I think would help you grow. I just noticed small thing. It's a polishing
thing. You're doing really well. Here's a growth strategy to help you grow to the next level.
To the foolish person, you just have to get into it and stay insistent and stay direct.
Because that is the kindest thing you can do. And I also found that another practical thing that
helps with people like that is if you're having the conversation goes a lot, goes south quickly.
Say, I would like you to take tomorrow off, come back the next day, and we'll pick up this
conversation again. And I want you to prose it. I don't want you to say anymore,
especially if it starts getting heated. Just stop the conversation and say, from this point on,
let's pick this up in a few days time or two days time, and we'll get back to it. I found that you
need to let them get out of the office because they can end up having the meeting after the
meeting. And that can be pretty destructive to the culture. So I think that's a practical thing.
Any questions? Jalen, I haven't been following the questions.
There were a couple of comments. There's one from Tyler. It says, it's also helpful when the team
gives each other feedback instead of waiting on the supervisor or owner to give the feedback. It's
a cultural thing. And Amber was saying also, it's really important to be direct with specific
examples. So yeah. That's really critical. Exactly. No, good points, Amber. And I think,
well, I want to give you, so obviously, some of you may not want to fill out the worksheet because
it's not directly relevant. But what a useful cheat sheet for you to have at all times. Even
for those of you that are parents, this is true too for your kids, right? It's the same cheat
sheet. Now, of course, we're not talking about kids being evil, but we certainly would. I found
that most of it is around the foolish thing. Most of it is around that. And so having clear
containment strategies for your kids, super useful. And it's always amazing the similarity
between leadership and parenting. So I had a friend who ran a franchise, and he said,
running a franchise is a lot like adult daycare. So I didn't know if that was, I never.
for anyone before. So, Robin.
Yeah, I wanted to, you know, one of our core values is trust,
you can have, you can trust me to have your best interest at
heart. And I can have you, I can trust you to have my best
interest at heart. And you can we can trust me to have Noah's
best and you to have Noah's best interest at heart. And when I'm
talking when we're talking about these foolish people, the
difficult people, the ones that deflect the ones that, you know,
do that diversion idea, I, I perceive, and that happens that
they're just trying to defend themselves, they're afraid that
they're going to get fired that, you know, that they're just not
secure in their position. And, and rather than, you know,
listen and own the problem, they, they deflect it and, and
don't own it. Because if they do, then then now they, they
think that now they're giving you permission to let them go.
Right? Yeah, I mean, that's a good point, Robin. It's a good
observation. It is insightful. I think almost all deflection is
based on fear, you probably could make that case, right?
It's fear of the truth fear of, you know, but yes, I think
giving them reassurance straight away and saying, Look, we're not
talking about you getting fired. Now, if this persists, that might
be another conversation, but we're not there yet. So I think
take it off the table. Yeah, you don't want people to feel you
don't want to threaten them. But you do have to be direct. So
that and again, remember, the objective is to create self
awareness, why so that you can make them wise, the idea is to
win them. So you know, and you can say that, and the reason we
do this training with everybody, so that when you having that
conversation, your team members, you say you do know what comes
next, right? I literally had this happen in our team. We went
through this training, and then somebody was deflecting. And I
stopped and I said, you do know you're deflecting, right? And
you do know what the strategy is going to come next. And he
burst out laughing. He said, I am so sorry. You know,
immediately, he went from zero to 60 straight away to self
awareness. And I said, Okay, well, you made that easy. So I
think it is it is built into your culture, that you people
are aware that this is how they're going to be managed, or
how they're going to be led. Okay, Jalen, you want to, we do
have the little worksheet, we drop the worksheet. Yep, we've
got the worksheet, grab the worksheet. And maybe even if you
don't have something to discuss, I'll just leave it to the
different teams. Just discuss, you know, how you could use
this, maybe you have an immediate application, or maybe
it's just something to bear in mind as a as a tool moving
forward. And we'll jump back here. Let's do let's do five
minutes to since we've taken extra time upfront here.
Okay, perfect. Well, we are going to separate into our
breakout rooms. Now, leaders, if you need access to the
worksheet link, I just put it in the comments, you can grab
that before we separate. If you have any trouble moving to your
room, just post in the comments, the name of your team, and I'll
help you get over manually. And then solo leaders, we do have a
group called general, you can go in there and interact
together. And we'll have the remainder of the time for
questions when we come back to the main meeting at 55. So here
we go. I'm opening up all the rooms. All right, so it is
question and answer time. So if any of you have questions, or if
something just isn't working, and you want some more insight,
please feel free to post in the chat or raise your hand. And
Dionne will be more than happy to answer or elaborate. So I'll
be checking the chat.
Yeah, there you go, Tyler.
We were kind of talking about what it's like when you don't
necessarily agree with the feedback, but you want to still
accept it. Right. So I think there's a kind way to do that.
That's not necessarily deflecting. So how could you be
a wise but not foolish person when you don't necessarily agree
with feedback?
Oh, it's a good question, actually. Yes. So I appreciate
that. So what my personal thing has always been to tell people,
I will give this very serious thought because it comes from
you. So it's honouring. Hey, Tyler, thanks for sharing that
with me. But because it comes from me, I want to get that
really serious thought. I might talk to one of other two, you
know, friends or whatever, and just bounce it off them too, if
it's appropriate. If that's okay with you, can I get back to you
in a week? Or can I get back to you in two weeks about that? I
really want to consider what you said. So I'm saying that because
I totally disagree with what you just said. And I once
I once got off the stage on a speaking platform and a guy
walked up to me afterwards. And he said, you know, you're one of
the most arrogant people I've ever met. I can't believe that
and he just launched. And but it's unfortunate with somebody
that I was connected with on the same leadership team. So I just
waited for his moment, I could see he was and I didn't think
there was an ounce to his feedback. So I said that to him,
let me think about that. I was, you know, I was talking about
exercising self control. And I said, healthy, and I get back to
and I said, I said, Give me a week or two. And over two weeks
later, I went back to him and I said, Okay, I spoke to three
friends. This is who this person is this person, this person,
every single one of them disagreed with you and do not
believe that your your feedback was valid. That's all I said. I
didn't say I disagreed. I said they disagreed. So it showed I
went through a process to get because of his seniority, I
couldn't just dismiss him. And, you know, there are just weird
people who want to use and manipulate systems, but I think
showing serious feedback and showing that you're open to it
because you could be blind. And you know what I also found? It's
rare that there's nothing in it, there might be something may
have been massively overstated, or there's actually a relational
issue. And they use that to try to, you know, level things up.
To me, if the conversation continues, you're not really
deflecting it, you're able to, like continue to, and you may
not come like you may not end with the first thing that he
said, or she said, you know, you might be able to come out
with a solution that's different, which isn't
deflecting, but it's just different.
So yeah, I think you're taking ownership. That's the point. I'm
taking ownership of that feedback, even though I disagree,
I'm still taking ownership of it, because I'm, because I'm
humble enough to know that I can't see everything. And you,
even if I feel it's exaggerated, look, the reason it's a blind
spot is because it's a blind spot. Because you can't see. So
there's always this, there's always this possibility, and
getting other people who are close to you to give feedback.
You know, I've done that on other occasions and gone back to
somebody and they said, No, I think that you may be a bit
overstated, but I think they actually have a point. And I go,
Really, I do that. Oh, wow. Okay. Robin. Surprise.
Yeah, I just wanted to chime in. Here at NOAA, we have core
values and 20 cultural commitments. And so a lot of
times, it's not a an issue. And other one of our core values is
the service. And we strive for zero missed inspection. So if
we're missing inspections, it's pretty easy to go back to, you
know, whoever's in charge of that the operations manager or
the inspectors, and say you're missing inspections. And so
there's no question about the truth of the matter. So I think
having a good core values and good, and we have what we call
cultural commitments, that it makes life a whole lot easier
when you're talking to one of your people about it, and, and
you have, you know, something to substantiate it.
Very cool.
Can't add to that.
Over to you, Jalen.
All right. Those were great questions, but we are out of
time. So don't forget, we do have the end of call survey that
will happen as soon as you exit out of here, please be sure to
share your feedback. And we will see you here next week. Bye,
everyone.