Now, so we can have this section separate.
So this section 2 or session 2, this
is any time anyone wants to bring up something
that you'd love the group to talk through.
Maybe you've got some business challenges,
can be all downstairs stuff, whatever it is.
There's no boundary here.
I think we spent a lot of time on the upstairs, which is great.
But let's talk about some practical business stuff,
but real problems, real issues, real challenges.
Anybody's got one you want to pitch to the team,
you're very welcome.
And say, hey, man, we're facing this.
Anybody got input, we'd appreciate it.
Anybody?
No problems?
I'll jump on here.
There you go.
All right, so I've always been the type where
you hire the right people to do the right job.
And for the most part, when there's problems,
if you don't interfere too much, they'll resolve themselves.
However, for me, it's distinguishing that line
between when they're on self-repair versus they've
crossed the threshold, and now they're
a real issue that has spiraled too far.
And now you're doing double duty to get it under control.
Does anybody have any input on that?
I'm sure there's a lot of input coming your way.
So who wants to weigh in first?
Anybody?
How does anyone else deal with that?
So I think the question is, don't micromanage people.
Let them grow.
Let them go through the self-learning thing.
But what happens when their self-learning isn't
either fast enough or is heading in the wrong direction?
They cross a threshold that starts
to have a negative impact on the business.
Was that a summary, Rich?
It is, but it's more on my end of it.
What do you do about it?
When that threshold has been crossed,
I myself didn't reel it in fast enough
or catch that point of not of no return,
but the point where it crossed and it went too far.
So it's finding that point of, I don't want to say of origin,
but finding that point where I should have stepped in earlier
instead of letting it force.
I mean, you're dealing with potentially
two different topics.
So let's just split them out for clarity.
On the one side is somebody who's
maybe going through a tough time, going through a lot
of learning, or they've just taken
on a new area of responsibility.
And so what's happened is they're
kind of weighing down under that
and they haven't quite risen to the occasion.
The other is you've got somebody who is, on their way out,
you're just delaying the process.
It's that thing of we just don't want to call it
because we're kind people.
We're loving hearts.
We're kind people.
But the kindest thing you can do to someone
who isn't keeping up, who wants to come to work every day
and feel that they're behind all the time
and constantly get the message they're not up to speed,
they're not up to standard.
That's an unkind place to keep people.
The kindest thing you can do is release into the marketplace
and go and find a place where they are genuinely received
and appreciated for what they do.
And it's okay to have standards.
It's okay to say, I demand this in this job.
So let's weigh in.
Delana, I know you've seen a lot of this.
Tamara, go ahead.
Yes, so I recently had to walk through this
for the last three months.
My president stepped down three months ago
and literally left me a company
I hadn't been running for a year.
So the transition was challenging for me,
but I also found in the gap was people
who were not quite up to speed to where they needed to be.
And then we had to hire people to take places and so forth
for what was missing for all the work that she did
that I wasn't able to fill in the gap for.
So having said that,
part of what I, this is where God has been teaching me
to have those clearing conversations sooner than later,
where I get to talk to someone who says,
my experience of you right now is this,
what's in the gap for me
and I see in your job performance is this.
Now, what can I expect from you in the future?
And we get to have an opportunity for them to respond with,
yes, I see that, I understand, whatever.
And get, that way we're on the same level playing field
that I've discovered.
I've had multiple of those conversations now.
And it's me just being honest.
There's no emotion in it.
There's no negative.
There's no, I'm not attacking you.
Hey, my experience of you right now
is that you're struggling.
You're not picking this up.
Your speed's a little.
little slow. What's in the gap for me is I need this done. So
how can we help you move you inspire you encourage you what
is in the gap for you that you're not able to meet what I'm
expecting of you right now. So they have been really powerful
conversations and people step out of that feeling so much
better because they've been hiding number one, how many of
your employees hide when they feel that way. So if you just
bring up the elephant in the room, and you do it with you
know, intention and kindness, and there's no animosity in it.
Wow, it changes everybody. So I've seen some people succeed.
And I've seen some people go, yeah, this isn't working. And
great, they they recognize it right away. This is what's in
the gap for me as your employer. And my experience of you is
this. So but yeah, it's a really powerful tool to use. So
hopefully that was helpful.
Yeah, that's really helpful. I just dropped here in the in the
in the chat, kind tone, blunt content. I think that's where
the balance is. Because if you're so kind, I literally told
a VP once because we somebody was really struggling. I said,
Okay, we come to the end of the road, let that person go, I
arrived the next morning, and there's the person. And I go,
Hi, how you doing? Great. Did you speak to john yesterday? Oh,
did you speak to john yesterday? Oh, we had a lovely
conversation. I feel so much better. And I'm thinking, what?
So I called john is marvelous. What did you do? And he says, I
don't know, man, I just got into it. And my heart bled. And then
I told him, I said, they're back here. I said, they didn't
realize you fired them. And so I think you have to be blunt, but
kind. You don't date the two are not mutually exclusive, just
deal with the information. Because here's what you're
getting to what if you're on the same side of helping the person?
Hey, together, like you just said to him, I like the how you
went to their side of the table. What can we do together to do
this? Do you think you're capable of this? I think you're
capable. But do you think you're capable of it? And what does
done mean? You think done means this, I think done means that
you think done means take so long, I think done means it
takes this long, my done is takes takes longer, and it
reaches higher than your done. So can we do this? So just that
clear conversation. 80% of all management issues revolve
around one thing. All my studies comes down to self awareness. 80%
of the issues making people self aware. And remember the Kruger
Dunning effect, people will overstate the areas of biggest
weakness. Oh, I'm a nine, man. I'm a solid nine. Yeah, but the
scale's out of 100. Because you're incompetent in that area,
you can't see the scale. I mean, I'm a nine out of 10 with
people. Listen, buddy, you aren't a one. You know, that
conversation creates, as you said, the gap. And then see if
you can tackle the gap together. But if you keep having the
conversation, there's another matter you're dealing with.
You're just delaying the inevitable, I think at that
point. So, Glenn, I thought you were going to weigh in a second
ago.
What comes to mind is a couple of things. One, Dion, that you've
taught in the Edge before, which is, you know, you also have to
understand how that person's responding, because you have
like those three types of people, right? You have a type
of person who owns whatever the issue is, if they have that
level of self awareness, and they own it, the response and
how you're going to deal with that individual is much more
around coaching. Yes, you might need to scale down the sphere of
responsibility, etc, etc. But the focus will be more on the
coaching element of it. And if that person is deflective, and
not owning it, then there's a significant amount of
constraining that needs to take place until they become self
aware. And then of course, you know, if that person is divisive
in any way, well, that that outcome is pretty straightforward,
you know. So I think there's that lens, I think there's that
type of a lens that can be applied in a situation like
this. It's one of the lenses. But I think the other was sort
of, Richard, I think you're asking, from a leader's
perspective, the other thing that comes to mind is to
understand the elements of change, right? Because at some
point, you're trying to get somebody to move to a certain
place, and there's certain things that need to be changed,
that need to take place in order for that person to, to be
successful. And those elements of change are a number of
different things. One is, you know, do they have sufficient
parity around what the vision is? What is the task? What are
they being asked to do? So that they can be successful? Have
they been armed and equipped with the tools necessary to be
successful? Have they been suitably motivated to do that?
on. And there's a series of those type of elements, which,
you know, as a leader, you can kind of sort of look back and
almost do a bit of a diagnostic to say, Okay, am I missing one
or either of those elements, that if I kind of help with
that, this person will become successful. So that would be a
thought.
Good. Well, let's so Glenn, you broke it down in two parts was
very helpful. The first is you're referring to Henry,
Henry clouds thing about the three types of people. There are
three types of people you lead, remember that from the training.
And it's called that in on the app, the three kinds of people,
and you'll remember that, that business. So just to remind you
again, when somebody is a wise person, and by the way, it
doesn't mean they wise in every area, this is just on the area
you're talking to them about, if they're being wise, they will
own it. That's the sign they're being wise, they usually thank
you, I didn't, I wasn't aware, thank you for making me aware,
etc. And then your strategy is give them growth, what's like
Glenn was saying, what growth thing can we give them? What
tools, what course can we put them on? What priority of
expectations, what has done mean all those things. So you can
deploy all those growth strategies. The second one is
they're being foolish. And that doesn't mean they're foolish in
every area, but in this area, they're foolish, because they're
blind, probably. So in this particular case, containment is
your strategy, let's contain this problem, so it doesn't bleed
out into the rest of the organization. So from now on,
you're going to show me everything that you do, or
whatever it is you're going to do to now contain, I want you to
send me a report every day for you know, with these three items
on it, I want to do and you start to contain it very
tightly. And the point of containment is to create self
awareness to help them become wise, or they leave, those are
the usually the outcomes of those two. So but I saw various
people put up their hands there about that. And of course, the
foolish ones, something destructive is happening,
something very disruptive is happening. And there you need to
just protect the strategies protect, usually that's let them
go, you know, wrap it up, you're if you've gone into point where
the intentions have actually become malicious, if there's
actually malicious behavior, that's got to be dealt with that
day on the spot, there is no drag, the worst thing you can do
is drag down and give them another 30 days. If they're
stealing your code, that's not the time to be kind. That's the
time to end it.
Okay, Tyler.
Yeah, I think that I mean, you, you kind of mean the answers are
kind of similar. But we've got a guy who's been with us for
probably 15 years or so. And I would call him, you know, the
second leader in the field for what we do. And, you know, work
he's creating quite a few mistakes. And it's hard to
pinpoint the why, because I firmly believe he knows how not
to. And so I think it's, my question, I think is, you know,
is that malicious behavior? Like how do you define malicious a
little bit? Right? Is it enough to fire him? Or is it enough
that we just have to have the crucial conversation and
reassign expectation? I almost think the conversation is going
to be, you know, hey, man, you're, you're just not going
anywhere. And I know if you're not going anywhere, then, then
he shouldn't be here. You know, like, it's almost like if he
doesn't want to grow, then there's not really a spot for
him. And he won't want to be here. Yeah. And I don't know,
Ben wants to, I mean, I was trying to phrase that in a
question. Those are just thoughts. So but that's how to
define malicious a little bit, you know, or what's best for
him.
I mean, I, yeah, it is a good question. I think I think we're
at a, this guy has been with us almost 20 years. I mean, he's,
he's very good. Technically, I think he may be a victim of, you
know, we tend to promote people one level past their
competence. You know, I think that he really hasn't spent the
time to develop himself as a leader. And, you know, he's
given, we've given a lot of opportunities, we've had a lot
of crucial conversations. And, you know, unfortunately, he's
not developing people underneath of him, either. And I really,
it's, it's very difficult, because he possesses a
tremendous amount of technical ability and skill that he can
produce himself. But I'm not sure how long he can do that.
Let's address this, because you're raising a very important
point. There are people in your organization, who will grow to a
certain point and be happy. And
they have enough self-awareness to know I don't want to be promoted, or I don't even want this
new area, right? So we all do that, we all do the Peter principle, promote people to one level above
their competence, and you know the highest level of incompetence I think is what this principle
actually says. But I think that we also have to make space for those people in our organizations
who don't want promotion, they don't necessarily want to grow in the sense of more responsibility,
but they're willing to grow in their productivity, and because they've got to be growing some way,
right? So the question maybe is we need to redefine what does growth mean for that person.
So you know, since these are confidential conversations, you know, we have one person
in our team, you know, and I've tried so many times to put her in, you know, different places
and send her, but she's very good at what she does, and she loves what she does, but every
time we try to put more on her, she falls short, she doesn't, she's like, she becomes uncharacteristic,
it's like you're seeing a side of her personality, or a side of her that you didn't even like, wow,
I just never thought you were the person who doesn't show up, doesn't care, because it's just
not that at all, she does care very deeply. And so we had a very blunt conversation, and so I asked
her this question, do you feel that I'm trying to promote you or grow you into an area you don't
want to go to? Just tell me straight. And she said, yes, you are. I said, okay, that's helpful. So where
do you want to be? She says, I want to be in this space here, and she defined it, which is what she
was doing. And she said, if you can take this off me, this off me, this off me, because I'm terrible
at those things, and I don't want to learn them, I don't want to be good at them. And so I said, well,
is that, is that valuable to us? So I said, okay, you have to be growing, in what area can you be
growing? So we found other areas for her to grow in, like, you know, getting a little better with
some of the tools we give them for productivity, and so on, you know, so get her to properly
actually use the QBook, for instance, you know, which she fought for years. And so the idea was
that, for her, just that small thing was enough. And because of the area of the business, it didn't
actually drag the business down at all. So I think we can create the impression everybody has to be
on this exact steep learning curve, because I keep making that graph with my hands. You know, so the
question is, that's not necessarily true. In every case, there are good people that are worth keeping,
maybe we need to scale them down a bit, and have a very blunt conversation. Do you feel like we're
trying to push you to an area that's not yours? Because you have all these skills, and you have
all these abilities, and we appreciate that. What would success look like for you? What would
make you happy? I don't want to be promoted, I love what I do, I want to arrive at work, I want to do my
job, I want to do a good job, but I don't want to grow into all this other stuff. So that is,
there are a few people in the world that are just that way. I don't think there's a lot of them,
but not in our organizations anyway. They don't tend to last. So Dima, can I ask a quick
follow-up, and then you can move past our problem. Yeah. I mean, you know, the whole idea of promoting
them too early a little bit, you know, do you talk about taking the truck away? You know, do you talk
about changing them back to hourly? I mean, like what, because we're not going down this direction,
you know. Right. I don't know. I guess those are the thoughts in my mind.
How is he going to respond to that? I'd set yourself up for the best outcome for the business,
and a good outcome for them. So what I mean by that is, setting them into an hourly mode,
for instance, is a very helpful way. Putting them as, moving them from employee to contractor
might be a very practical way, and maybe even they would appreciate it if they had,
you know, they don't work Fridays or whatever it is, you pay them less, you scale down their
area of responsibility, but you still get their strength and what they're good at.
But what it does do is it allows you flexibility to, because to go from employee to you're fired
is hard, to go from employee to contractor. I think it's a very individual case, so it's hard
to say. In our case, we actually did drop the salary slightly back, and Jenny, I don't know
if you wanted to weigh in on that whole experience and what we did there. I think you covered it
really well, and I think it was just really, to be kind to her, and to give her the best of us,
and get the best out of her, knowing what her space is, really, and it was not just good for
her, but good for the team in the business, because she really does thrive in that area.
Yeah, I know growth areas became other things. So, for instance, she
He started managing virtual assistants
and she started managing,
but they were all on her own terms.
There was nothing that, so that was much more on.
So she's growing,
it's just not in the way we were first expecting.
So I don't know if that's helpful,
but back to the partner, ask the partner,
Lord, how do you see them?
It's amazing how he sees people.
He just sees them so differently.
Paul said, we do not see people in a human or worldly way.
We once saw Christ in this way, but no longer.
And what he's saying is there's a way
to see people in the spirit, to see their upstairs self.
And he said, well, they don't know the Lord or whatever.
They're not walking with the Lord.
Yeah, but the Lord's walking with them.
So you can, don't write people off,
just to have a look at it from his viewpoint.
And maybe honestly the kindest thing is to let him go
and get out of this pressure
you're constantly putting them under.
And here's, if you need growth in that area,
then you have to replace
with a person who's willing to go in that area.
I mean, that's all there is.
You have to do what the business needs.
If I can chime in really, Ben and Tyler,
I'm assuming it's construction related business.
Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know how big the business is,
but is it possible to keep them as a solo technician?
Something along those lines
without harming your business or something like that.
Because that's what I see.
That's what I could foresee.
If he doesn't wanna grow himself and teach others,
maybe he's better off in a solo role
as the next alternative
or whatever other steps you would have to take.
I think it's a good idea, Rich.
And I appreciate the feedback.
I mean, we've considered that.
I think we're having trouble getting him in a place to see
kind of the way that we see things
so that he can solve problems ultimately.
But I appreciate and really need to spend some time,
man, asking the Lord how he sees him.
That seemed rather obvious,
but I think we may have skipped that step.
That's so great.
So I think everybody aligns with you, Ben.
That's seemed rather obvious, but there you go.
That's why we remind each other every month, right?
So that's why we're here.
We're here to, we're on a learning curve.
There's a lot of grace to learn
and God's grace does cover our learning for sure.
For sure, I love that he does that for us.
That's funny.
I wanted to,
I wanted to just take a second and look at the app,
but you can have a look at it.
Have you noticed that,
does everybody have access first of all?
Because I want to get into that next.
I'm going to end this part of the call.