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Now, so we can have this section separate.

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So this section 2 or session 2, this

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is any time anyone wants to bring up something

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that you'd love the group to talk through.

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Maybe you've got some business challenges,

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can be all downstairs stuff, whatever it is.

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There's no boundary here.

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I think we spent a lot of time on the upstairs, which is great.

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But let's talk about some practical business stuff,

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but real problems, real issues, real challenges.

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Anybody's got one you want to pitch to the team,

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you're very welcome.

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And say, hey, man, we're facing this.

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Anybody got input, we'd appreciate it.

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Anybody?

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No problems?

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I'll jump on here.

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There you go.

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All right, so I've always been the type where

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you hire the right people to do the right job.

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And for the most part, when there's problems,

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if you don't interfere too much, they'll resolve themselves.

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However, for me, it's distinguishing that line

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between when they're on self-repair versus they've

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crossed the threshold, and now they're

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a real issue that has spiraled too far.

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And now you're doing double duty to get it under control.

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Does anybody have any input on that?

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I'm sure there's a lot of input coming your way.

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So who wants to weigh in first?

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Anybody?

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How does anyone else deal with that?

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So I think the question is, don't micromanage people.

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Let them grow.

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Let them go through the self-learning thing.

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But what happens when their self-learning isn't

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either fast enough or is heading in the wrong direction?

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They cross a threshold that starts

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to have a negative impact on the business.

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Was that a summary, Rich?

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It is, but it's more on my end of it.

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What do you do about it?

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When that threshold has been crossed,

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I myself didn't reel it in fast enough

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or catch that point of not of no return,

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but the point where it crossed and it went too far.

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So it's finding that point of, I don't want to say of origin,

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but finding that point where I should have stepped in earlier

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instead of letting it force.

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I mean, you're dealing with potentially

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two different topics.

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So let's just split them out for clarity.

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On the one side is somebody who's

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maybe going through a tough time, going through a lot

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of learning, or they've just taken

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on a new area of responsibility.

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And so what's happened is they're

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kind of weighing down under that

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and they haven't quite risen to the occasion.

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The other is you've got somebody who is, on their way out,

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you're just delaying the process.

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It's that thing of we just don't want to call it

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because we're kind people.

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We're loving hearts.

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We're kind people.

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But the kindest thing you can do to someone

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who isn't keeping up, who wants to come to work every day

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and feel that they're behind all the time

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and constantly get the message they're not up to speed,

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they're not up to standard.

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That's an unkind place to keep people.

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The kindest thing you can do is release into the marketplace

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and go and find a place where they are genuinely received

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and appreciated for what they do.

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And it's okay to have standards.

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It's okay to say, I demand this in this job.

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So let's weigh in.

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Delana, I know you've seen a lot of this.

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Tamara, go ahead.

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Yes, so I recently had to walk through this

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for the last three months.

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My president stepped down three months ago

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and literally left me a company

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I hadn't been running for a year.

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So the transition was challenging for me,

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but I also found in the gap was people

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who were not quite up to speed to where they needed to be.

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And then we had to hire people to take places and so forth

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for what was missing for all the work that she did

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that I wasn't able to fill in the gap for.

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So having said that,

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part of what I, this is where God has been teaching me

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to have those clearing conversations sooner than later,

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where I get to talk to someone who says,

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my experience of you right now is this,

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what's in the gap for me

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and I see in your job performance is this.

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Now, what can I expect from you in the future?

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And we get to have an opportunity for them to respond with,

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yes, I see that, I understand, whatever.

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And get, that way we're on the same level playing field

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that I've discovered.

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I've had multiple of those conversations now.

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And it's me just being honest.

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There's no emotion in it.

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There's no negative.

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There's no, I'm not attacking you.

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Hey, my experience of you right now

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is that you're struggling.

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You're not picking this up.

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Your speed's a little.

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little slow. What's in the gap for me is I need this done. So

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how can we help you move you inspire you encourage you what

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is in the gap for you that you're not able to meet what I'm

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expecting of you right now. So they have been really powerful

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conversations and people step out of that feeling so much

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better because they've been hiding number one, how many of

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your employees hide when they feel that way. So if you just

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bring up the elephant in the room, and you do it with you

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know, intention and kindness, and there's no animosity in it.

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Wow, it changes everybody. So I've seen some people succeed.

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And I've seen some people go, yeah, this isn't working. And

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great, they they recognize it right away. This is what's in

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the gap for me as your employer. And my experience of you is

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this. So but yeah, it's a really powerful tool to use. So

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hopefully that was helpful.

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Yeah, that's really helpful. I just dropped here in the in the

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in the chat, kind tone, blunt content. I think that's where

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the balance is. Because if you're so kind, I literally told

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a VP once because we somebody was really struggling. I said,

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Okay, we come to the end of the road, let that person go, I

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arrived the next morning, and there's the person. And I go,

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Hi, how you doing? Great. Did you speak to john yesterday? Oh,

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did you speak to john yesterday? Oh, we had a lovely

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conversation. I feel so much better. And I'm thinking, what?

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So I called john is marvelous. What did you do? And he says, I

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don't know, man, I just got into it. And my heart bled. And then

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I told him, I said, they're back here. I said, they didn't

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realize you fired them. And so I think you have to be blunt, but

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kind. You don't date the two are not mutually exclusive, just

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deal with the information. Because here's what you're

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getting to what if you're on the same side of helping the person?

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Hey, together, like you just said to him, I like the how you

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went to their side of the table. What can we do together to do

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this? Do you think you're capable of this? I think you're

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capable. But do you think you're capable of it? And what does

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done mean? You think done means this, I think done means that

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you think done means take so long, I think done means it

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takes this long, my done is takes takes longer, and it

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reaches higher than your done. So can we do this? So just that

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clear conversation. 80% of all management issues revolve

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around one thing. All my studies comes down to self awareness. 80%

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of the issues making people self aware. And remember the Kruger

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Dunning effect, people will overstate the areas of biggest

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weakness. Oh, I'm a nine, man. I'm a solid nine. Yeah, but the

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scale's out of 100. Because you're incompetent in that area,

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you can't see the scale. I mean, I'm a nine out of 10 with

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people. Listen, buddy, you aren't a one. You know, that

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conversation creates, as you said, the gap. And then see if

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you can tackle the gap together. But if you keep having the

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conversation, there's another matter you're dealing with.

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You're just delaying the inevitable, I think at that

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point. So, Glenn, I thought you were going to weigh in a second

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ago.

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What comes to mind is a couple of things. One, Dion, that you've

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taught in the Edge before, which is, you know, you also have to

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understand how that person's responding, because you have

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like those three types of people, right? You have a type

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of person who owns whatever the issue is, if they have that

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level of self awareness, and they own it, the response and

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how you're going to deal with that individual is much more

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around coaching. Yes, you might need to scale down the sphere of

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responsibility, etc, etc. But the focus will be more on the

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coaching element of it. And if that person is deflective, and

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not owning it, then there's a significant amount of

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constraining that needs to take place until they become self

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aware. And then of course, you know, if that person is divisive

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in any way, well, that that outcome is pretty straightforward,

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you know. So I think there's that lens, I think there's that

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type of a lens that can be applied in a situation like

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this. It's one of the lenses. But I think the other was sort

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of, Richard, I think you're asking, from a leader's

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perspective, the other thing that comes to mind is to

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understand the elements of change, right? Because at some

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point, you're trying to get somebody to move to a certain

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place, and there's certain things that need to be changed,

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that need to take place in order for that person to, to be

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successful. And those elements of change are a number of

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different things. One is, you know, do they have sufficient

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parity around what the vision is? What is the task? What are

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they being asked to do? So that they can be successful? Have

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they been armed and equipped with the tools necessary to be

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successful? Have they been suitably motivated to do that?

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on. And there's a series of those type of elements, which,

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you know, as a leader, you can kind of sort of look back and

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almost do a bit of a diagnostic to say, Okay, am I missing one

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or either of those elements, that if I kind of help with

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that, this person will become successful. So that would be a

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thought.

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Good. Well, let's so Glenn, you broke it down in two parts was

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very helpful. The first is you're referring to Henry,

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Henry clouds thing about the three types of people. There are

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three types of people you lead, remember that from the training.

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And it's called that in on the app, the three kinds of people,

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and you'll remember that, that business. So just to remind you

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again, when somebody is a wise person, and by the way, it

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doesn't mean they wise in every area, this is just on the area

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you're talking to them about, if they're being wise, they will

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own it. That's the sign they're being wise, they usually thank

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you, I didn't, I wasn't aware, thank you for making me aware,

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etc. And then your strategy is give them growth, what's like

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Glenn was saying, what growth thing can we give them? What

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tools, what course can we put them on? What priority of

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expectations, what has done mean all those things. So you can

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deploy all those growth strategies. The second one is

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they're being foolish. And that doesn't mean they're foolish in

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every area, but in this area, they're foolish, because they're

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blind, probably. So in this particular case, containment is

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your strategy, let's contain this problem, so it doesn't bleed

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out into the rest of the organization. So from now on,

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you're going to show me everything that you do, or

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whatever it is you're going to do to now contain, I want you to

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send me a report every day for you know, with these three items

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on it, I want to do and you start to contain it very

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tightly. And the point of containment is to create self

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awareness to help them become wise, or they leave, those are

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the usually the outcomes of those two. So but I saw various

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people put up their hands there about that. And of course, the

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foolish ones, something destructive is happening,

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something very disruptive is happening. And there you need to

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just protect the strategies protect, usually that's let them

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go, you know, wrap it up, you're if you've gone into point where

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the intentions have actually become malicious, if there's

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actually malicious behavior, that's got to be dealt with that

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day on the spot, there is no drag, the worst thing you can do

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is drag down and give them another 30 days. If they're

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stealing your code, that's not the time to be kind. That's the

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time to end it.

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Okay, Tyler.

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Yeah, I think that I mean, you, you kind of mean the answers are

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kind of similar. But we've got a guy who's been with us for

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probably 15 years or so. And I would call him, you know, the

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second leader in the field for what we do. And, you know, work

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he's creating quite a few mistakes. And it's hard to

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pinpoint the why, because I firmly believe he knows how not

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to. And so I think it's, my question, I think is, you know,

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is that malicious behavior? Like how do you define malicious a

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little bit? Right? Is it enough to fire him? Or is it enough

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that we just have to have the crucial conversation and

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reassign expectation? I almost think the conversation is going

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to be, you know, hey, man, you're, you're just not going

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anywhere. And I know if you're not going anywhere, then, then

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he shouldn't be here. You know, like, it's almost like if he

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doesn't want to grow, then there's not really a spot for

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him. And he won't want to be here. Yeah. And I don't know,

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Ben wants to, I mean, I was trying to phrase that in a

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question. Those are just thoughts. So but that's how to

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define malicious a little bit, you know, or what's best for

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him.

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I mean, I, yeah, it is a good question. I think I think we're

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at a, this guy has been with us almost 20 years. I mean, he's,

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he's very good. Technically, I think he may be a victim of, you

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know, we tend to promote people one level past their

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competence. You know, I think that he really hasn't spent the

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time to develop himself as a leader. And, you know, he's

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given, we've given a lot of opportunities, we've had a lot

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of crucial conversations. And, you know, unfortunately, he's

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not developing people underneath of him, either. And I really,

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it's, it's very difficult, because he possesses a

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tremendous amount of technical ability and skill that he can

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produce himself. But I'm not sure how long he can do that.

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Let's address this, because you're raising a very important

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point. There are people in your organization, who will grow to a

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certain point and be happy. And

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they have enough self-awareness to know I don't want to be promoted, or I don't even want this

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new area, right? So we all do that, we all do the Peter principle, promote people to one level above

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their competence, and you know the highest level of incompetence I think is what this principle

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actually says. But I think that we also have to make space for those people in our organizations

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who don't want promotion, they don't necessarily want to grow in the sense of more responsibility,

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but they're willing to grow in their productivity, and because they've got to be growing some way,

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right? So the question maybe is we need to redefine what does growth mean for that person.

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So you know, since these are confidential conversations, you know, we have one person

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in our team, you know, and I've tried so many times to put her in, you know, different places

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and send her, but she's very good at what she does, and she loves what she does, but every

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time we try to put more on her, she falls short, she doesn't, she's like, she becomes uncharacteristic,

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it's like you're seeing a side of her personality, or a side of her that you didn't even like, wow,

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I just never thought you were the person who doesn't show up, doesn't care, because it's just

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not that at all, she does care very deeply. And so we had a very blunt conversation, and so I asked

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her this question, do you feel that I'm trying to promote you or grow you into an area you don't

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want to go to? Just tell me straight. And she said, yes, you are. I said, okay, that's helpful. So where

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do you want to be? She says, I want to be in this space here, and she defined it, which is what she

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was doing. And she said, if you can take this off me, this off me, this off me, because I'm terrible

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at those things, and I don't want to learn them, I don't want to be good at them. And so I said, well,

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is that, is that valuable to us? So I said, okay, you have to be growing, in what area can you be

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growing? So we found other areas for her to grow in, like, you know, getting a little better with

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some of the tools we give them for productivity, and so on, you know, so get her to properly

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actually use the QBook, for instance, you know, which she fought for years. And so the idea was

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that, for her, just that small thing was enough. And because of the area of the business, it didn't

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actually drag the business down at all. So I think we can create the impression everybody has to be

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on this exact steep learning curve, because I keep making that graph with my hands. You know, so the

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question is, that's not necessarily true. In every case, there are good people that are worth keeping,

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maybe we need to scale them down a bit, and have a very blunt conversation. Do you feel like we're

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trying to push you to an area that's not yours? Because you have all these skills, and you have

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all these abilities, and we appreciate that. What would success look like for you? What would

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make you happy? I don't want to be promoted, I love what I do, I want to arrive at work, I want to do my

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job, I want to do a good job, but I don't want to grow into all this other stuff. So that is,

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there are a few people in the world that are just that way. I don't think there's a lot of them,

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but not in our organizations anyway. They don't tend to last. So Dima, can I ask a quick

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follow-up, and then you can move past our problem. Yeah. I mean, you know, the whole idea of promoting

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them too early a little bit, you know, do you talk about taking the truck away? You know, do you talk

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about changing them back to hourly? I mean, like what, because we're not going down this direction,

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you know. Right. I don't know. I guess those are the thoughts in my mind.

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How is he going to respond to that? I'd set yourself up for the best outcome for the business,

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and a good outcome for them. So what I mean by that is, setting them into an hourly mode,

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for instance, is a very helpful way. Putting them as, moving them from employee to contractor

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might be a very practical way, and maybe even they would appreciate it if they had,

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you know, they don't work Fridays or whatever it is, you pay them less, you scale down their

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area of responsibility, but you still get their strength and what they're good at.

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But what it does do is it allows you flexibility to, because to go from employee to you're fired

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is hard, to go from employee to contractor. I think it's a very individual case, so it's hard

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to say. In our case, we actually did drop the salary slightly back, and Jenny, I don't know

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if you wanted to weigh in on that whole experience and what we did there. I think you covered it

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really well, and I think it was just really, to be kind to her, and to give her the best of us,

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and get the best out of her, knowing what her space is, really, and it was not just good for

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her, but good for the team in the business, because she really does thrive in that area.

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Yeah, I know growth areas became other things. So, for instance, she

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He started managing virtual assistants

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and she started managing,

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but they were all on her own terms.

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There was nothing that, so that was much more on.

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So she's growing,

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it's just not in the way we were first expecting.

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So I don't know if that's helpful,

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but back to the partner, ask the partner,

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Lord, how do you see them?

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It's amazing how he sees people.

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He just sees them so differently.

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Paul said, we do not see people in a human or worldly way.

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We once saw Christ in this way, but no longer.

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And what he's saying is there's a way

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to see people in the spirit, to see their upstairs self.

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And he said, well, they don't know the Lord or whatever.

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They're not walking with the Lord.

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Yeah, but the Lord's walking with them.

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So you can, don't write people off,

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just to have a look at it from his viewpoint.

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And maybe honestly the kindest thing is to let him go

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and get out of this pressure

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you're constantly putting them under.

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And here's, if you need growth in that area,

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then you have to replace

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with a person who's willing to go in that area.

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I mean, that's all there is.

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You have to do what the business needs.

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If I can chime in really, Ben and Tyler,

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I'm assuming it's construction related business.

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Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know how big the business is,

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but is it possible to keep them as a solo technician?

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Something along those lines

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without harming your business or something like that.

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Because that's what I see.

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That's what I could foresee.

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If he doesn't wanna grow himself and teach others,

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maybe he's better off in a solo role

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as the next alternative

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or whatever other steps you would have to take.

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I think it's a good idea, Rich.

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And I appreciate the feedback.

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I mean, we've considered that.

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I think we're having trouble getting him in a place to see

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kind of the way that we see things

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so that he can solve problems ultimately.

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But I appreciate and really need to spend some time,

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man, asking the Lord how he sees him.

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That seemed rather obvious,

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but I think we may have skipped that step.

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That's so great.

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So I think everybody aligns with you, Ben.

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That's seemed rather obvious, but there you go.

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That's why we remind each other every month, right?

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So that's why we're here.

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We're here to, we're on a learning curve.

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There's a lot of grace to learn

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and God's grace does cover our learning for sure.

385
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For sure, I love that he does that for us.

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That's funny.

387
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I wanted to,

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I wanted to just take a second and look at the app,

389
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but you can have a look at it.

390
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Have you noticed that,

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does everybody have access first of all?

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Because I want to get into that next.

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I'm going to end this part of the call.