Okay, everybody.
So my name is Renee, and most of you have seen me on prayer calls, I help lead a bunch
of different stuff.
And I'm actually excited to do this co-ed version tonight of love seats really focused
on what I would say, not just sex, but sex and intimacy, because intimacy is more than
just sex, right?
I actually watched Jackie do her dating 101 class last night.
It's been so long since I've heard her teach that I thought I better get brushed up on
what she's like saying at the front end.
And so I wanted to get a chance to do that.
Thank you for those of you who were brave enough to send me questions on the form.
So let me just tell you why I like being able to share about this topic.
For those of you that don't know, I ran a pregnancy center for 20 years.
And so I have been speaking to middle schools, high schools, young adults, grown adults,
couples one on one in school and church settings about the topic of sex, intimacy, unplanned
pregnancies, STDs.
So I pretty much if you think Jackie doesn't have a filter, I also do not have a filter
on this topic.
However, I'm also aware that not everyone's comfort zone is the same.
And so as appropriately, we will discuss topics and answer questions that were submitted
and will answer questions that people submit to me privately.
If I think they're appropriate for a co-ed environment, if I think it would be more appropriate
for Jackie and David to answer separately in the Ask Jackies, I'm going to go ahead
and do that.
And I would actually say, if questions come up that are a little bit more detailed from
this session, it would be great for you to put it in the Ask Jackie.
The good news about doing the Ask Jackie form now is not everyone's going to see all your
questions.
So it kind of gives you a little bit of kind of secret and then be able to do that.
So the rules for engagement tonight is I'm going to share what Jackie in this program
thinks are the dynamics and the guardrails as it relates to intimacy and sex.
There are some of you on this call or some of you watching in playback who might have
stricter guardrails and some of you might have more loose guardrails.
That is okay.
I'm just trying to express what would honor Jackie and this program.
So here's what I'm going to ask that you do tonight.
I'm going to ask that you not ask questions of the community in the chat box and give
answers because I can't monitor to make sure the answers and the advice you're giving matches
what Jackie is approving as part of the program.
And so if you guys want to have conversations offline, not on this Zoom, you know, of course
that may happen, but for tonight, I mean, I don't care if you guys are talking to each
other or clarifying stuff, but hold questions until the end.
I've kind of have a summary based on the questions I've already received.
I'm going to specifically read out some of the questions and there is an opportunity
towards the end for you to private message me a question that I will go ahead and answer.
And if, of course, at any time, if you need me to clarify something, feel free to raise
your avatar hand and I will call on you and I will let you ask that question.
If I think I'm going to come up with it later, I might just say, hold that question, put
a pin in it for now.
So are we all set?
So I'm going to go ahead and open this up in prayer because I'm very aware with a population
right now, we have 74 live.
I know that that number is going to increase and the number that are going to watch us
and playback is going to increase.
When we talk about sex and intimacy, I'm very aware that one in three women have dealt with
some form of sexual assault.
One in four men have dealt with some form of sexual assault.
Many of us on this call have dealt with sexual addiction, pornography, love addiction, either
the one doing it or the on the receiving end of it.
So I just want to honor that this is sacred and safe space.
Father God, we just ask that you be a part of this conversation.
You love and designed intimacy and sex, and so you don't think it's a bad thing.
You think it's a beautiful thing in the covenant and in the guardrails that you set before
us so that we do it safely and that we maximize the joy that you meant for it to be.
So sex and intimacy is not meant to be dirty or shameful.
And so Father God, we want to give it its proper honor tonight.
And Father God, I ask for a special hedge or protection around each person that this
might trigger them or where they have received incredible pain in this area, that maybe this
is just a turning point for them to get healing that they didn't even think was possible.
We lift up this whole night to you in the mighty and precious name of Jesus.
Okay.
We are on it.
All right.
So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to talk about sex and intimacy.
the, the different levels and kind of like the do's and don'ts at the different levels.
So the first level, just to remind you guys, level one, that's all of us right here.
Level one is just people that you do life with in a very kind of superficial or a little
bit more realistic way.
It's just that level two is you're starting to build a relationship with somebody.
And I'm glad I've listened to Jackie talk about this last night because I had never
really thought about it.
She reminded me that we're at level two with coworkers, family members, people of the same
sex and people of the opposite sex, that level two is just building a relationship with somebody.
And it's not meant to be a sexual connection, um, right away that it's really meant to be
like, Hey, I want to get to know you better.
Like, you know, I ran, I met Aaron two years ago in Nashville and I'm like, man, I want
to get to know that girl better.
And so I made a choice to kind of get to know her better while she was here for a week.
And so now I know her a little better than some of you that are just starting in the
community.
So, you know, Aaron and I might argue we're at level two together.
And so I love that theory because it kind of takes, do I have chemistry?
Is it going to be a sexual thing off the table, especially in those early conversations, especially
when you guys are getting set up on dates or you're meeting people online, you're starting
at ground zero that is really different than somebody that you're considering going on
a discovery date with that you've known that's friends with your family.
He or she has been at your church.
They've been a part of your life group or your social network.
You've already been in acquaintance with them.
And so that might grow differently than a level two discovery dating relationship.
That's really starting out from ground zero.
The other thing I like to remind people at level two, and this is true even at level
three, how you start level two is not the same as how it goes through all of level two.
Obviously, if you keep dating the same guy or girl, even though level two means you're
dating different people at the same time, obviously you're going to talk about different
things on the very first date with that person than the 10th date, right?
And so some of you may stay at level two with people for two to three months.
And I will say this, you guys, please do not let the phrase last year single force
you to rush the process.
I've seen a lot of people like barrel through and man, they're like at level three within
two weeks.
And like, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And like, and they were a complete stranger beforehand.
So feel free to use level two to really, really get to know that person.
So here's some things that you want to do.
You want to keep it low key and platonic.
You really want to, especially in those early dates, you want to keep it platonic.
The phrase that Jackie uses a lot is you want to stay in the present.
It's okay to talk about, like when I talk about my past on my early dates, I might say,
oh my gosh, you know, I was kind of like, I was kind of a book nerd and I really didn't
become more of an extrovert till I went into high school.
Oh, I cheered in high school or I was in the choir.
Oh, I used to love musicals and be a part of that.
Like that's like generic information about my past that I wouldn't care if the guy in
Kroger or Target knows that information.
So it's okay to talk about your past if you wouldn't mind sharing it to any stranger that
you run into.
So that's kind of the past information.
That's okay.
It's the information you wouldn't care if anybody knows.
When you stay in the present, you have an opportunity to get to know who that person
is today.
I don't know about you, but I'm not dating who that guy was 10 years ago or five years
ago, or even the guy that he was when he was married.
If he was married previously, I'm hopefully talking to a more healthy, heel, whole man
today.
So that's the guy that I want to get to know.
And ladies, same for you.
He wants to get to know who you are today, and maybe he kind of wants to know what your
hopes and dreams are.
Obviously don't make it to like, oh my gosh, I want to get married and have 5,000 kids
and I want to do full-time ministry with my person.
You may not want to vomit that on the first date.
You might want to share some other things that are your dreams and your goals.
I want to finish a book.
I want to run a marathon.
I want to be able to learn how to paint.
I want to learn a second language.
I want to go to Israel.
There's a lot of things that I'm sure are on your bucket list of things that you want
to do in the future.
So this is low-level intimacy.
So again, remember, a lot of times people think intimacy is just sex, and especially
for people where sex was forced upon them at a very young age.
We hear that phrase, intimacy, and we just assume it means sex.
Intimacy does not equal sex.
Intimacy can take on so many other levels and not just sex.
I did see this question a lot last night, so I thought I would go over it, because people
get very confused.
They're like, oh my gosh, well, if I'm not supposed to talk about my faith and my child.
children on those first dates.
What the heck do I talk about?
So here's what I think about.
Think about an onion.
And you know how an onion has lots of layers to it?
I think it is okay for you to talk about your faith,
your family, your children, your hopes, your dream,
your job in those early level two stages
that you feel comfortable with.
Now it's low level.
So again, you wanna make sure,
is this something I wouldn't mind telling somebody
in the grocery store?
Now my mother vomits her life story to everybody,
the grocery, the checkout person and the person behind her.
She thinks they all need a full explanation of everything.
So my mom probably would share a lot of information
on that first date, just cause that's who she is.
Here's a good litmus.
If you know you're sharing too much information,
too much intimacy on those early video dates, early dates.
If that person suddenly ghosted you,
would you feel like you overshared?
That's usually a good indication that you overshared.
Okay, now, cause as you guys know,
Jackie kind of challenged me
to do this whole online dating thing.
I teach the online dating thing, which is hilarious
cause two years ago, I hated the very existence
of online dating and I became the poster child for it.
So what I've just learned is I've learned how to navigate
a lot of texting conversations, video and dates,
share enough about myself without oversharing.
So I no longer have what I call
emotional overshare hangovers.
Does anybody else know what an overshare hangover
feels like, especially for a co-dependents in the room?
Man, we just know.
And I will say this too,
if you have been a part of a 12 step program
where you share very quickly, very fast,
you also might fall victim of an overshare.
If you have a strong empath skill,
if you have been in social services,
if you are in the medical field, if you are a teacher,
anything that has afforded you the gift
of opening up quickly, getting people to trust you quickly
and you getting them to vomit their story quickly,
what served you well in your job in ministry
does not serve you well on your first and second dates.
You need to reign that intimacy button in.
You guys, I have this uncanny gift.
I used to run a nonprofit
and I would do the last interview.
I would let them come in my office, sit on the couch.
I would totally disarm them.
I would kind of slouch back in my seat and I'd go,
so tell me about yourself.
Literally, that's all I would say.
So tell me about yourself.
You would be shocked and amazed what people would vomit
in the next 10 to 15 minutes.
And I would just sit and listen.
I'm like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe you're telling me this on the first interview
like this is crazy.
And so I've learned,
I need to reign that in when I'm dating
because Jackie's talked about this a lot.
We need to make deposits on our first dates.
So we need to add all of the elements
that are healthy about us that we know to be true,
that areas of our life that have been healed,
restored, redeemed,
things that we're excited to talk about.
We are not ready to start making withdrawals
on another person.
And you guys, I think we can all attest
to either being the overshare or being on a date
and somebody starts telling us their entire life story.
You guys, I don't know,
in case one of those men are on here
or ever listens to this later,
I don't ever want to divulge some stuff,
but you guys, there's sometimes information I've learned
on a first or second date,
intimacy wise, content wise,
that is too much information.
The other thing now,
as we lead into the conversation of sex and intimacy,
I can't tell you how many men and men,
I'm sure you can say the same thing,
how many men have told me how much sex they used to have
or not have in their marriage.
If their wife cheated on them,
if they cheated on their wife,
they like sex, they didn't get enough sex.
Like I'm amazed at how much content I learn about their,
and once you hear that conversation of sex,
you can't unhear it.
Both Jackie and David feel very strongly
that the topic of sex,
Debra, I will answer that question.
That's a great question.
How to reign it in.
Sometimes I am really good at doing that.
And sometimes it's so fast.
I'm just sitting there with popcorn going,
okay, just go, man,
because you're just going to go
and we're never going to have another date again after this.
Like, this is just so crazy.
I got to listen to the rest of this.
So I will tell you how I try to reign it in.
But so you don't want people make withdrawals
and you don't want people talking about sex.
So I know there are a lot of other dating sites
and there are a lot of other people
who feel like right in their first text exchanges
with a guy or girl or on their first video date
before a live dates even happened,
we have to make sure we align politically.
Are you vaccinated or not vaccinated?
Are you waiting to have sex to get married?
Boom, that's heavy content.
And you would say, well, Renee, I need to know that.
I'm getting too old.
I don't have time to waste.
I will say this.
And I had this conversation with Gail earlier.
I'm so glad I gave so many different men a chance
in the last two years,
because I've had so many live dates,
which has taught me about how badly I used to date.
You guys, I was the queen of vomiting my resume onto people
and getting their resume information,
bombarding them with questions.
And so, you know, it takes practice and practice
and practice and practice.
So do what you can to get on those live dates,
practice those live dates, get to know yourself,
get to know other people.
Those conversations are just too, too intimate for texting.
I mean, I'm amazed at how many people start to have
the sex conversation by text.
I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You haven't even done a video with this person.
You don't even know if they are who they say they are yet.
So you really want to be careful.
So Debra, you asked how I rein it in.
I literally will do it.
I will try to set the stage early.
And if somebody asks a question
that I think is pretty intimate,
here's the answer I give.
I say, that's a really great question.
Since we're just getting to know each other,
I'm gonna answer at a very high level.
If we continue to date,
I will give you more information as appropriate.
If I ask a question, I will also sometimes preclude it.
I might say something like,
hey, so how long have you been divorced?
Just for the record, I don't need a blow by blow
of what happened in your divorce proceeding.
This is just high level today.
Like you don't have to do it.
So I try to tell them ahead of time.
I don't need them to go deep.
If they start to go deep,
and I think this could be an amazing guy,
I will help rein it in.
This is why I do video dates first.
I don't do phone dates, I do video dates
because I like seeing not just tone and inflection,
but I like to see body language.
I wanna be able to look them in the eye.
So if I'm about to press pause on them over sharing,
I want them to see my warmth in person.
If I do it over the phone, it might feel abrupt.
So what I might say is,
wow, we're gonna hold off on that.
I just need you to stop.
So like I literally will put up my hand
and just say, like, Paul, you're right in front of me.
So I'm just gonna say,
hey, Paul, I see where you're going with that.
I need you to rein it in.
Like I totally, at some point,
it will be appropriate for me to hear all of that.
Tonight's not the night.
Let's just try to stay high level
as we're just getting to know each other.
Now, I have done that and people have ignored that
and they still barrel in.
I mean, there was like one guy,
I was like, dude, stop right now, stop, stop.
And so you don't have to subject yourself
to too much overshare.
You have to learn to set healthy boundaries.
Again, that's why you don't have those deep conversations
by text.
It's hard to hear tone and inflection.
And that's why I like to do things by video
until I meet them face to face
because I want them to see my smile, my nice eyes.
I wanna be able to try to let them know.
And if they get embarrassed and go, oh my gosh,
I shouldn't have done that.
You're just like, oh my gosh, it's okay.
I used to do the same thing.
Like let them off the hook.
Kenny, I used to do the same darn thing.
I totally get it.
We're just trying to get to know each other
and I don't want you to feel bad about it afterwards.
It's all good.
Like I just affirm them like crazy.
Now, if I do correct it and they can't get over it,
that's probably not my person
because my person's gonna mess up and I'm gonna mess up
and we need to be able to hold space for those mess ups.
Okay, physical boundaries.
Okay, so now we're gonna sound
like a total prude about this, you guys.
And I would argue a lot of us
have done it the wrong way sexually, right?
So I'm not saying this from a Miss Perfect place.
Do not think Renee is white as snow and I've done it right.
I'm here to tell you, and this is what I used to say
when I went to go speak to the high school
and college students.
I would go with one of the married people on my staff
and I'd be like, okay, so they're an example
of what happens when you do it right.
I'm an example of when you do it all out of order.
And there's a cost that goes with it.
There's many joys that go with doing it wrong,
but there's a lot of big costs that go with it.
So here are the physical, sexual, intimate boundaries
that are good, especially in the early part of level two.
Hugs, gentle touches, winks, nods.
They're all okay.
Like gentle touches, like when you're at a restaurant
and they say something really cool.
I don't know if you've ever seen the friends episode
where Rachel kind of strokes Joey's hands
and she's like, oh, that's so sweet.
She created a touch that was just nice.
Now go hiking, you guys.
Um, I went hiking with somebody and he missed every opportunity.
I almost tripped and fell like a million times.
He missed every opportunity to be chivalrous and grab my arm.
I'm like, dude, you couldn't grab my arm.
And then that could have been a friendly touch.
I would expect you guys.
Um, when I'm putting up my luggage on an airplane, married or single, if a man
is offering to help me and he brushes his arm, I'm all good, like, Hey, get
my luggage for me, that would be great.
So that's, what's good.
Now, obviously as you move along in level two, you're like, I want a hug.
I want to like a peck on the cheek.
I want to like, I want a little kiss, maybe a kiss, no tongue.
Just realize you don't yet know how many other people he or
she might be doing that with.
So at that point that you want to start making out is probably the time that you
need to have a conversation about how many other people you're making out
with and trying to get, so up until then, Jackie would say, you don't really owe
anybody an explanation of how many other people you're talking to or not, but the
minute something like kissing starts happening, then that's the time that you
have to fess up and start having a conversation that doesn't mean you're
like, okay, tomorrow we're exclusive or we're getting married and we're taking
Simbis.
No, that's not what that means.
But it does mean you might press pause on the other people that you're talking
to because you now have created a level of sexual intimacy with somebody.
Um, if you are dating long distance, um, and I will say this, not everyone is
excited about this because we want you to have live dates with them.
We want to keep, uh, so to protect level of intimacy level of especially sexual
intimacy, keep those video dates down.
They don't have them to be six hours long.
Don't start having them from the bedroom in your pajamas, sitting on your bed,
like looking like, Hey baby, like don't start pillow talk.
I call it pillow talk.
Don't start pillow talk before you've had your first live date.
Don't do it.
Sit at the table, sit at the couch, find a place that you would normally
have a conversation with somebody.
Don't bring the guy or girl into your bedroom before your first
date, if you are video dating.
So that's just my, I'm just telling you, it creates a level of intimacy that can
get sexual because the only thing you're doing is talking when you are in person,
you can go to the park, you can go bowling, you can go play darts.
You can go throw axes.
You can go ball.
There are things that you can do, but when you zoom, the only thing you
do is start sharing and sharing.
Now I have gotten creative on zoom dates.
I have done scatagories.
I've done UNO.
I've played Yahtzee.
Like you can be creative, you can cook a meal together, but by and large, zoom
will turn into a lot of oversharing, which starts to lead into emotional
intimacy and it can start to lead into what we call digital sex, right?
We all know, like, it's like sex talk, right?
We're adults.
We can kind of talk about that.
So if you are long distance, I would say if you are within four hours, within a
month, within that first month, you should be trying to book a halfway visit.
If you are probably a plane ride away or 10 hours, um, Jackie would still say
within six weeks or six dates, you need to be booking that, that flight.
And I know it sounds like an expense to do that, but if you drag out three
months of talking to somebody digitally, it really can make that first meeting
super weird and you're putting a lot of time into somebody that you're not
getting to see how they behave out in the real world, remember we're trying
to build intimacy and we're trying to build it without verbal intimacy and
sexual intimacy, which can be done digitally, of course.
So we want you to experience in-person live dates.
Okay.
Let's see.
Um, we don't incur, I think I've already said this.
We don't encourage you to start talking about sex until you think
you need to start talking about sex.
That that's just it.
If you're out on that day with our guy or girl and you're thinking, man, there's
no way in heck I'm ever going to sleep with this person.
Then don't talk to them about sex.
Like, like, don't just get to know them.
Okay.
So level two now heads into level three, hopefully.
Right.
Um, before you go to level three, I've heard people say exactly, Erin, it's
not your business until it's your business.
And so I'm going to start to get a little more specific on there.
Now, before you go into level three.
And I will say this, I learned this the hard way.
A lot of times I've heard men and women both ask this.
How many dates do I give it?
If I feel no chemistry or physical traction, Jackie would say it's
a yes until it's a no, right?
It's a yes until to know.
Well, you guys, I got all the way up to Simbas a year and a half ago with a guy
that I was not physically attracted to because everyone convinced me.
this is what normal attraction's like, and this is what healthy love is. Y'all, I almost married
somebody I had no physical chemistry with, and Jackie was like, oh, Renee, I should have told
you to stop before this point. And I'm like, well, that would have been really helpful for me to know.
So before you go exclusive, make sure at that point, Simbis, it's save your marriage before
it starts. It's a pre-marriage class that you can take before you're engaged or while you're engaged.
Um, but it's really good, really intense. Um, so here's what I would encourage you. If you are not
physically attracted yet to the person that wants to go exclusive, you need to be honest with that
person. If you're like, gosh, I really do like this person. Maybe if I'm just alone with just
this person, my attraction might grow. I think it is appropriate for you to say, gosh, Miriam,
you know what? I would love to consider being exclusive with you too. I have to be really
honest with you. I'm not, I think I'm not experiencing the same physical chemistry that
you are. Are you still open to going exclusive? Knowing that you need to let them be able to have
a say if they want to go exclusive with you, if they're not physically attracted to you at that
point yet. Um, there are now some things that you're going to start to talk about that are what
you would consider God defended deal breakers. Maybe before you go exclusive, that is when you
start to broach the conversation about like, Hey, I noticed we started to kiss more. You talked
about sleeping over. I feel like I need to be super clear now about intimacy. My, my plan is to
not be sexually intimate before marriage. Um, is that something we can talk about? Do you feel
comfortable with that to keep that conversation super high level? You guys do not get into like
the details of what that means at that point. You can talk about that later and let's not all get
all Bill Clinton. Let's talk about what sexual activity means. Sexual activity is when your mouth,
your hand are touching other genital parts or genital is touching genital. Let's be clear.
Gail is laughing, right? But that is sexual activity. So whether it's, um, you kind of got
what I'm trying to say there. Don't need to repeat myself. Y'all can replay that back and go, wait,
what did she just say? But you heard me. That's sexual activity. It's not just intercourse. Um,
okay. Now here's also a time that you may start to consider having a conversation. If there has
been drug, alcohol, sex, or pornography in addiction in your story. So only when you're
about to be exclusive or during that exclusive stage, because here's the thing you guys,
if you've got a pornography addiction or a sex addiction or a love addiction or alcohol addiction,
do you necessarily want that information to go out to every level two person? No,
like that's like private information. And so I would say very early in that exclusive time,
they've now earned the right to hear that again. They're still not ready for all of the details.
So if somebody confesses that they had a sex addiction or porn addiction, that is still not
the time for you to say, okay, so how often every day, what did you do? What'd you watch? Like
you're just gathering that information and seeing if that's something you can sit with.
And you also can be asking that question like, okay, so if we're going to date
and you have a past with pornography, what are the guardrails we can both put up that you feel
comfortable with? So I feel safe and you feel safe. So I know how to honor our relationship
in each other so that I can ask you questions. Am I allowed to see your email? Am I allowed to
ask you this? Do you feel comfortable if I ask you that? You start to ask what the guardrails
are around that addiction. Hopefully that makes kind of sense. And at that point, you may start
to have more appropriate conversation about what your sexual boundaries are with each other.
Now we'll say this, there are plenty of people who think, man, I can make out until the cows come
home, full on tongue. And as long as our clothes are on, like, I'm not going to want to have sex.
I got, I've got this, the willpower of, you know, like a monk, I got this. There are other people
that might say, you know, like that time of the month, or if I'm horny or if I'm sad, or if you're
so hot, like I can't even make out with you more than five minutes. You guys, there was a season
in my life. I'm not in that season right now. So don't freak out. But like, there was a season
in my life where I so needed affirmation, which I thought was physical. If he was hot and I was
horny, there was no place in my home that was safe. Not the kitchen, not the living room. So
like this whole idea, like, you know, and like, let's not turn into 16 year olds. Well, how far
is too far before it's a sin? Okay. Wherever you think it is, take two steps back. That's where it
is. Like, and so that's a different.
boundary for every single person.
So some people kissing on the mouth is too much.
Some people tongue is too much.
Some people like, hey, we can't lay on top of each other
making out because like now I'm feeling body parts
through the clothing.
And so if you're having an adult conversation in level three
you can start to have more clearer boundaries
on what that looks like.
And I will say this too, which person gets to win
on how far is too far,
the person who wants the least amount, that's who wins.
So if Gail is all good, Gail's right in my middle screen
so she's getting picked on tonight.
So if Gail is like all in with tongue and she's like,
hey, I can do tongue
and I'm not gonna wanna do anything else.
But Ty is like, I can't do tongue
because then I'm gonna totally wanna have sex with you.
Then Ty wins.
Does that make sense?
We gotta honor what the person needs at the lower level.
And I will say this, if this is a good guy or a good girl
that's a God kingdom person,
they will honor what that is for you.
And I will get to your questions
because somebody asked me specifically,
like if they say that they have to test out the car,
I love that.
Like y'all, I had a video day with a guy who swore
he was like a Jesus loving guy.
And it was clear in our early conversations,
he had long relationships after his divorce,
they would travel together.
So he didn't have to tell me
he expects to have sex before marriage.
It was very clear in his conversation.
And all I said was,
yeah, I'm pretty sure you're not gonna wanna date me.
And I said, it sounds like the lifestyle
that you've had with the women that you've dated
really doesn't align with what I think is good
and healthy for me.
I didn't say it wasn't healthy for anybody.
I didn't say it was a sin.
I just said, it's not healthy for me.
And he's like, really?
You would actually buy the car without test driving it?
And I said, here's what I can tell you.
If he kisses good and he dances good,
the other stuff is good.
I don't need to test it all the way out.
Like Vicky's, see Vicky, right?
I'm telling you, you're hardly a bad kisser
and great in bed and vice versa.
They usually kind of go together.
So I, you know, sometimes I just find a snarky way
to kind of come back around with it,
but I don't get all righteous.
I don't start quoting scripture.
I'm only on a video date with this guy.
I don't need to bring him to Jesus
like and convict him of his sin.
Like sometimes you guys,
I would totally try to convict men of their sin.
Like I was on a video date years ago with this pastor.
He was so flirting with me, so flirting.
And like, he was willing to drop me like a hot potato.
And I thought it was my place to school him
on how he was behaving like a brother in Christ.
Y'all, like it did not need to be me schooling him
and he got married to some other chick
and I'm sure he didn't think twice about my bad advice,
all that.
Okay, so let's see.
Okay, I think I covered all that.
Level three exclusive as it's moving along,
possibly talking about marriage.
Okay, so you're peeling the onion more and more
and giving information about,
okay, so let me use me, I will be a guinea pig.
I will use me as an example.
Pretty early in conversations.
Now you guys, I will say this too.
I'm a public speaker, I've published a book,
I've spoken from the stage in ministry a lot.
So there's a lot of information already out there about me.
So what I'm willing to share earlier in dates
is based on the fact that there's already information
that they could Google about me.
So they might as well hear it right from my face.
So use that as your litmus test of how private you are.
You don't wanna share any more than what you feel safe with.
So here's what I might say really, really early on.
My relationship with my dad was really complicated
and after he died, it was a complicated grief
and I'm really glad I had a chance to work through it.
That's it, that's all I might say in my first five dates.
If we've been dating a pretty long time,
I might start saying things like,
yeah, my dad made so many stakes as a father
and as a husband, but what I really learned over the years
is while his behavior was more overt,
there were some things that my mom did
that were kind of covert.
Now I'm still not telling you what my dad did.
I'm still not telling you what my mom did, right?
Now I'm exclusive.
And again, I'm using me as a guinea pig here.
So you guys are all getting my level three conversation
in this, but I'm trying to tell you
how a conversation progresses.
So in level three, I might say things like,
you know, my dad really started making fun of my weight
by the time I was 12 years old.
And so, and he stopped putting my photographs in his wallet.
So, and he told me I was the smart one.
So by the time I was 13,
I probably already had body image issues.
did not think I was cute, and I think I've been chasing that ever since.
Right before I get married to somebody, now my father has gone home to Jesus. So there's a lot
of things that the Lord has healed that I'm no longer going to need to take to the marriage.
And so I may not say much more than that ever. But if a year ago with my dad still alive,
I might say something like, I really want to marry you, but we need to talk about how we're
going to handle the wedding because I don't want my dad to walk me down the aisle. It's
going to make me really uncomfortable, and I don't want to have that dance with my dad.
So can we find a way to work around so that it's not going to be so obvious?
Do you see how I'm still talking about my dad, but there's a level of respect about it? Now,
I still even haven't told you guys all of the intimate details of my relationship with my
father. That might wait until I'm married. And so it's not that you don't talk about your kids,
and you don't talk about your faith, and you don't talk about some of the stuff that you've
been through, but you share just a snippet of it. And at each level, you share a little bit more
as it comes up as it's appropriate. Does that make sense? When I talk about my faith, I've been in
ministry 25 years. I've got Christian symbols on my wrist. So it's easy for me to talk about my
faith super fast, but I don't go like, okay, so what's your relationship with Jesus? And do you
speak in tongues? And what are your spiritual gifts? Y'all, I don't do that. I'll say things
to people like, so what takes up your day? And what are things that are really important to you?
And if they say, if they ask me the same question, I will say things like, oh my gosh, I love theater.
I love working out. I love cooking dinner for friends. I'm very involved in my church. I'm a
part of my prayer ministry. So it's just one of five things that I list. So it's clear that it's
important to me. So when we're talking about intimacy, that's what we're talking about here.
All right. I do want to get to this. Okay. So I'm about to get really deep. So if I'm
going to embarrass you, I'm kind of preparing you right now before your engagement, here are some
topics that you may or may not need to talk about. You still, if you're about to get engaged,
you still do not owe them every single sin, the number of sexual partners that you had,
the positions you don't like in sex, the ones that you do like in sex, that is still not
necessary conversation to get engaged. Okay. Now, again, I've cleared all of this with Jackie.
You may disagree with all of this. I'm just letting you know, as a community,
this is what we're encouraging. I'm adding this second one because I did work. I did run a medical
clinic for 20 years. I do believe somewhere in stage three, if you have a lifelong STD like
herpes, you do need to let your partner know that. I think it's a fair thing for them to learn
that you have something like herpes because it means you have that for the rest of your life.
That will very much change the way you have sex, especially if there is an outbreak. Again, I'm just
being very blunt with you all. Topics like if you've had an abortion, paid for an abortion,
had a sexual assault, it can or cannot be discussed at this time. You don't have to
tell somebody if you've been assaulted. You don't have to tell somebody if you've had an abortion,
especially if you've already done the healing for it. Again, I ran a pregnancy center. You guys,
one in three women in my age group have had an abortion. In the younger age group, it's one in
four. It's a very high number. One in four pregnancies will end in a miscarriage. The
chances are that a woman has experienced a miscarriage, infant death, stillbirth, or an
abortion is very, very high. Guys, just know that chances are it's very, very high. Chances are she
has dealt with some kind of sexual inappropriate behavior at some point in either her job or her
life, but she doesn't owe you that information sooner than she's ready to tell it to you.
Men, if you are thinking about marrying a woman and she is over the age of 50, just realize that
as our bodies age, we might need a little bit more patience and assistance to enjoy sex again,
especially if they've never had sex or it's been a very, very long time. Women, it might be a good
time to visit your OB to make sure as you're starting to get into that level three relationship,
you really want to be having honest conversations with your OBGYN about how you will be able to
safely and satisfiably have good sex. You want to be able to have that conversation.
Here's the thing, and Jackie talks about this all the time. She really still encourages us to
wait until marriage to have sex. She knows that that doesn't happen. She knows that by the time
people are taking Simbis and getting engaged, she knows a lot of the people in the community are
having sex anyway. I will give you the same information I tell the young people. The hormone
that comes out of a woman, it's oxytocin. Do you want to know the three times oxytocin shows up in
a woman? It is
It's when it's released during sex, childbirth,
and when she's lactating or breastfeeding.
Those are the three times oxytocin releases from her
and it causes her to connect in a way
that it does not cause men to connect.
So women, that is why when we have sex, we connect.
The hormone does it for us.
There is no way out of it.
And so it is why if we break up,
there is a soul tie that is different
than a soul tie that exists for men.
Yes, a soul tie does exist for men with sexual activity,
but we are just wired differently.
And so we will attach differently.
I promise you, I've looked for the loophole in scripture.
Nobody has looked for the loophole more than me.
There is no loophole for divorced people,
people over the age of 50.
God is very clear that sex is amazing
and beautiful in the covenant and marriage.
You guys, it is the most intimate
and personal thing that you can do.
And a lot of times when I saw some of these questions,
there is fear about certain positions.
I don't wanna have oral sex.
I don't wanna have anal sex.
I don't wanna be in this position.
I don't wanna be in that position.
In my suspicion, it's because something traumatic
happened in the relationship
and it wasn't a safe relationship.
So I would just say this,
and thank you, I see that there's other questions
that might be coming in.
So I would just say this, once you're engaged,
you can start to have honest conversations.
So here's what you still may not be prepared to do.
It's okay to say something like this.
You know, Terry, I do have a sexual past
and there are some sexual activity that I've enjoyed
and some that I hated, some that hurt,
some that made me feel like a slut.
And so I'm hoping as we become sexual together
in a marriage relationship, we will explore those together
and that we would not engage in any type
of sexual activity or position
that would cause either one of us to not feel good.
Is that something you would be okay with?
So if you notice, I was able to talk about that
without saying, okay, so in this position,
or in this position, like no need to get graphic.
Like this is about building repertoire and conversation.
Okay, so that's all my notes.
So I'm gonna pull up the questions.
So let me hide the participants thing.
Okay, so does it get released with kissing?
No, it doesn't.
Oxytocin does not get released with kissing.
I mean, I don't know, unless you can like,
technically it's three times oxytocin is released.
It is released during sex and it's during penetration
and it's during breastfeeding again,
and it's during the birth.
So there's an actual specific action
that's kind of happening to make it happen.
All right, so let me read some of the questions
that were sent in ahead of time
and feel free to start promising.
I mean, if you wanna start sending me questions,
I will do this.
Okay, what are some recommended boundaries
for stage two and three?
Any tips to navigate exclusivity in the abstinence talk?
I feel like I covered that.
So I feel like we're good there.
How can women make men feel special?
Hugs, words of affirmation, making them their favorite male.
You guys, I'm a big fan of the love languages.
I think that's a fun question.
I try to ask people like, oh, have you done Enneagram?
Have you done DISC?
Have you done Myers-Briggs?
Have you done a Strength Finders?
Have you done the love languages?
Like, that's fun stuff.
I'm a personality test junkie.
So in level two dating, I love learning that.
So I love learning that.
I don't mind saying to people like,
oh my gosh, like, how do your children tell you,
how do your children show you they love you?
How do you like to be affirmed at the office?
Like, do you like this or do you like that?
They don't have to have read the five love languages.
If you know what they are, you can start prompting them.
Oh, do you like this or do you like this?
Here's what I do.
You guys, I can, hey, if there's a guy
that's gonna go on a date with me right here on this call,
I can't stand roses.
I like Gerber daisies.
I like daisies.
You're gonna give me roses, yellow, pink, white.
I don't know why I don't like red roses.
They just get black so fast.
I don't know.
I like daisies.
There's something about daisies that just make me happy,
especially Gerber daisies.
Like, I have a basket of wildflowers.
Actually, what I really like is wildflowers.
And if you go pick them out in the yard
or you steal them off the side of the road
and you didn't even go to a store,
I'd be all good with those flowers.
I'm like, I like baby's breath.
So you see, like, you start helping.
You start helping the other person
showing how they show love.
Okay.
Sometimes, okay.
Hmm.
Someone said here, this is a really good question.
Sometimes making out leads to touching,
then to this, then to that.
It's a cascade of events
and it feels wrong to stop in the middle,
especially if men are super aroused.
Be clear. No is always no. You get to say no at any time. You get to say no if you're making out.
You get to say no if you're half naked. You get to say no if he's inside of you. If you are done
and you say stop, stop means stop. Let me be super clear about that. No means no. And in fact,
in most states today, you actually need verbal consent to have sex, which is why in most states,
if you are inebriated, you cannot give consent and it can be considered rape. So them not just
saying no isn't enough. She actually needs to say yes. He needs to say yes. So ladies,
let's not just say it's men doing it. Sometimes we all get hot and bothered too and we start
pushing them too, especially if we used to use sex to reel a guy in. If we used to use sex to
reel a guy in when we feel like he's drifting away, we might start resorting back to old tactics.
So here's what I would say, you guys. No always means no, and you can always stop whenever. I
don't care how uncomfortable it is. I don't care if somebody has to go relieve themself in the
bathroom afterwards, but no always means no. Does God not want us to have beautiful sex? And did
he really mean for us to abstain our whole life? Well, no, he didn't mean for us to abstain.
In the same way the enemy wants to kill marriages, he wants to stop them right from the get-go.
So I promise you women didn't start, we did not start menstruating at like 10, 12, 13 years old
for us to not have sex until we were 55 years old. That is not how God originally designed it,
right ladies? No, we were all supposed to be able to have happy, healthy, holy sex at a much younger
age. So that this is not God's original design. So God was hoping that we would all get married
younger and stay married. He did not intend for us to do this into adulthood, but here we are,
we're single, and so we still have to honor God. It is not the original design,
but he wants to protect our hearts and our minds, okay? Is this a red flag?
If someone you're in level three with who said that they're agreeing to wait till marriage,
if the conversation starts to get sexual, especially if you know you're getting both
turned on, here's the thing y'all, we're all guilty of starting to go, if we've all been,
if you have already been sexual in the past and you had good sex, it is really easy to go down
that rabbit trail without even thinking about it. So let's try to have some space and grace when
that first happens and just say, Dana, I know that's not who you are, I know you want to wait,
and so you know what? I'm going to put a stop on that conversation, girl. I love you,
this is fun, but this is going to take us both to a place we don't want to go.
So my partner already knows where I stand on this issue, so I'm hoping they're going to be
strong enough to rein me in, right, Dana? Dana knows that if I was talking about a guy, she'd
be like, oh, sister, that is not a conversation y'all need to be having together, or he's been
hanging out on your couch too much, like you're just waiting for, you know, like, I always say
this to young people all the time, your willpower will give out at some point. I used to say the
fear of God or your mother's face is not going to last long enough. If you guys get naked on
top of each other in the dark long enough, enough times, you will fall, you just will, willpower.
Is it okay that they have to relieve themselves after making out? Hmm, that's a good question.
That's a maybe. I would say that was a really good question. Somebody privately asked me
if you are making out and if he has to go relieve himself, is that okay? I would say this,
if it happened once, maybe twice, and you knew you guys were making out, it was going too far,
I get it. That might creep some of you out, but I get it. If it's happening after every single
makeout session, that would start to concern me, that would concern me that he is not in control
or she is not in control. So I would say how often it would happen would concern me,
and I think that would be Jackie's answer, but feel free to add that question on to ask Jackie.
Do we need, this is a really good question, I wanted to get to this one. Do we need to wait
for a man or woman who has already decided to save sex for marriage because they want to honor God,
or is it okay to date somebody who doesn't have that value but is willing to wait because he
wants to get to know you? I would say proceed with caution, proceed with caution, because here's how
I will ask that question further. If the sex thing comes up pretty early on, and I get the comment,
I had no intention of not having sex before marriage, but if that's something you want,
I'll
honor you. So here's the next question I always ask. Okay, so now you've let me know where you
stand on that. So if we're making out, we're both really turned on, maybe I'm a little tipsy,
and I say, hey baby, you know, I think I changed my mind. Let's just go ahead and have sex anyway.
We've been together for six months. Will you stop me? Will you say, Renee, that's not what you want.
And if that guy says, no, I won't stop you, then that guy is not safe for me to date.
Because I know that the willpower then is 100% on me. And I know me, I don't think I could do it
all by myself. Like I'm just just being real. So Vicki, that's a no. Vicki, that's a no. Let's
see. Oh, thank you. Okay, I'm just now I'm going to scan through to make sure there's no other
private questions. If you want to be, how do you tell them that kissing is too much?
You know, I had a girlfriend, she had been through a lot of sexual assault, a lot of
promiscuous behavior. And she met a really good godly man, and their first kiss was at the altar.
Now I'll tell you what, he laid it out thick. And it was the longest kiss I'd ever seen at the
wedding altar. I mean, at the altar, and I was a little embarrassed by it. But they're pregnant
with their fourth child. And so somehow they made it work. And so I think you can just be honest,
I will say this, make sure whatever boundaries you have with sex and intimacy, whether it's
verbal intimacy, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy, make sure it's because
it's lined up with scripture. And it's because you feel like it's what God's called you to do.
Don't have a boundary up because you're afraid and something bad happened. And it's just something
that you need to maybe work on. And so if you spiritually and personally feel like kissing
before marriage is a no go, and you feel 100% that that's your answer, no matter what, then before
you hit level three, you need to be honest about that. I mean, if he's not asking for a kiss in
level two, then you don't need to tell him. But at some point, if he's asking for a kiss, you might
have to say something like, you know, I really don't want to kiss at this stage, I'm just not ready.
So maybe you don't say I'm not ready to kiss till marriage, you just say right now I'm not ready,
because I don't know, maybe if you court him long enough, it's healthy enough, you might want to
kiss him before you get married. So why pigeonhole yourself in that? How do you bring up being
exclusive in stage two, if the guy has not mentioned anything, but is talking about future
dates together. And you can be really super, you know, I'm a Yankee, Gail teases me all the time,
I just say it like it is. And I'm super direct about it. So I just say like, if he starts talking
about a future with me, I'll say something like, hey, you know, right now, I'm not aware if we're
even exclusive yet. So it feels a bit odd to be talking about future conversations until we're
exclusive. Are you ready to talk about being exclusive? Oh, no, no, no, I'm not ready. No
problem, then I'm not ready to start talking about the future with you. That's that's just
a Hey, let's just keep enjoying each other's company. And if at some point you are ready to
talk about being exclusive and the future, that's when I feel like that conversation would be more
appropriate. Again, you guys, stage three of exclusive is different than end of stage three
exclusive stage three of exclusive is you probably want to start making out you start want to holding
hands you want to like focus only on that one person. So in that early stage, you've not said
that you're going to marry them. You're just saying that you're not going to marry them.
Nicole, I love it. I hope I'm not embarrassing anybody. And let's see. No, you cannot take
Simbas as a single person. It's just the course isn't designed that way. You take an assessment,
he takes an assessment, and you spend the next eight weeks packing unpacking the compatibility
of the program. But for sure, if you want go online, it's, it's the initial save your marriage
before it starts, go online and read about it, it'll tell you what's in the test. It's really,
really in depth. So you basically take this very, very long assessment, they match you up,
and you spend the next eight weeks unpacking those results. Okay, anybody else? I mean, feel free
to if you want to be bold, you know, I'll be able to go another 10 minutes or so on this.
Our wonderful friend menopause. I know y'all. I'm just I'd like to hear more guidance about
how to ask about what guardrails do you need in place for when you meet? Okay. Kim, that was a
great question. Are you talking about the guardrails as it relates to pornography or sexual addiction?
So, you know, it depends on what the addiction is. So
So if somebody like, you know, my nephew, um, got addicted to Adderall,
which turned into something else.
And so he knows he's in a level three relationship with his girlfriend.
He knows at any time she can ask him to take a urine test.
Like he's given her permission.
If his behavior seems off and he's starting to behave different, she's
allowed to say, Hey, I need you to take a urine test and he's not going to get
offended because it's part of his past.
He relapsed once it's been five years.
But, you know, he has not been miraculously healed of his addiction.
Some of us are miraculously healed from addictions.
The vast majority of us have to go through the long channel of healing
and we need recovery programs and we need, um, accountability partners.
Um, so the person that did confess to me about his pornography, the first
thing I did ask is how long have you been sober and he gave me the length
of time and I said, what is your accountability system to help keep you
sober that we actually use the word sober, even though we were talking
about pornography and he mentioned who his accountability team was.
And I said, okay, well, we're only in level two.
What guardrails do you have up to make sure that you stay clean?
Now he knew exactly what I was talking about.
And he said, you know what?
I can't watch shows like game of Thrones.
I can't watch this.
Um, you know, and so he was very clear about what he can and can't do.
And I said, okay, well, if we were, um, at level three, I will bring up then
what I think I would need for guardrails.
So for me in a level three thinking about marriage, um, I would need to
know that if I asked him, if like, as far as I would be concerned, um, I
would say, you know, can I have access to your computer at any given time?
Like if I feel like your behavior starting to get weird, can I see your
computer history?
Can I see your phone history?
Um, would that offend you?
Um, if that would offend you, what will you offer me as a guardrail?
So I know that I can ask you that because if someone's owning up to an
addiction and they know that they still need recovery for it, you get to be a
part of what those guardrails look like, because it may have to be a part of your
marriage.
And you guys, here's how blunt, um, I have family members in wheelchairs and I
won't name names in case one of those people ever watches this video, but
somebody said to his girlfriend before they got engaged, I need you to watch a
video of what sex with a paraplegic is going to look like, because I need to
know that you're going to be okay with having sex with me that way.
And you guys, I loved that.
I love that there was a very blunt conversation.
Now, here's the thing.
You can be in a wheelchair and have amazing sex.
You really can.
It's just going to look potentially different.
It might include Viagra.
It might include additional things to make it happen.
Um, and so those are the, like, in my opinion, if you can't have those
conversations at end level three and in engagement, you're marrying the wrong
person.
And I say this from somebody who ran a pregnancy center.
I can't tell you how many young couples I would have in front of me.
And I would ask very direct, blunt questions in front of them.
They couldn't even look each other in the eye.
They're like, Oh, we don't know that.
Oh, we don't know that.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, you did the most intimate act on the planet already.
And y'all can't even talk about sex with each other.
Um, I mean, healthy sex at our age, you guys, we, some of us have had a lot of
trauma.
You're going to have to be able to have honest conversation about what, what you
need to make it feel good.
And if it hurts and it doesn't feel good, you are going to have to say something
and please no faking it.
Like when you're married, please don't fake the, Oh, make sure that they know how
to do it correctly.
Um, and then you'll just set yourself up for a healthy, holy marriage.
I mean, a lot of us want amazing.
Spiritual intimacy, emotional intimacy, and sexual intimacy in our marriage.
And the best way to do that is to date well, and I will end with this and take
any open questions that you have.
You guys have been so good.
I don't know.
Maybe some of you are dying in this conversation and it's been really hard to
sit through it.
But some, a Christian counselor said this to me once, he said the same muscle that
you exercise to choose abstinence single is the same muscle you'll use for fidelity
married.
And so if you have a hard time being abstinent single, you're going to have a
hard time being faithful married because at some point your spouse is going to
upset you, piss you off long enough.
Be cranky, be fat, not in the mood and temptation will come around your place.
And if you couldn't say no abstinent, you will probably have a hard time saying no
married.
Um, and I'm just saying that therapists have said that, and I, that has really
just changed the way I think about abstinence.
Here's the thing too, I heard Tim Tebow's parents talk about this when he was talking
about this.
He goes, this is the model I set up for Tim when it came to abstinence.
I told my kids to not change the bullseye.
The bullseye is abstinence.
The bullseye is no sex until marriage.
He goes, I'm not saying my kids got it perfect every single time.
And sometimes the arrow, like archery, sometimes the arrow doesn't hit, but if you keep changing
the target, you're never going to hit the target.
So our aim always should be to keep level two platonic.
The minute it starts to get romantic, be considering becoming exclusive.
When you're in level three, pay attention to what you're doing.
Aim for abstinence, even if you mess up.
Yes.
Is it hard to wind it back?
It is.
I promise you, I can say from experience, it can be done though.
And so we want to encourage you to have great intimate relationships, but we want you to
honor each other well while you do it.
I don't want you to have emotional hangovers.
And ladies, you all know this, and men, maybe you know this too, I'll tell you what.
And I do think sex is an amazing, beautiful thing, but I do not miss the shame I felt
post sex in a relationship that wasn't God honoring.
No sex is as good as how bad I would feel afterwards.
And that's me being honest in front of 107 people and whoever else watches that.
So I can just say that it is so much easier for a relationship to end.
I am not shattered and destroyed if I've not done too much too soon.
And so I know that my future husband is going to love that I'm taking this stand for him.
And I'm just hoping he will be patient as I relearn how to do everything and all of
that good stuff.
All right.
Anybody have any questions?
Hi, Renee.
All right.
Sounds good.
Hey.
Hey, everyone.
So David and I are back in Texas.
We just got home from California and we wanted to try to get in on the end of this conversation.
I'm glad we made it.
I'm at the end.
So this is perfect timing.
Perfect.
So if you have any questions, like Renee said, also, David and I are here as people having
sex to answer some of those questions about what sex looks like within marriage, what
sex looks like within courtship, because we were next-door neighbors.
And if you don't think we had plenty of opportunities to do the deed, we did.
You know, we're grown-up adults.
We can go over each other's house whenever we want and do whatever we want.
And so we are here also to be part of that Q&A.
So take it away.
Let's see what we got.
Be free.
Who's got questions?
And David's here, too.
Yeah, hi, I'm Kim.
And I had sent a message recently.
I met someone in Singles Nation in my area, and I had just put out an all-points message
saying anyone living in Puyallup or Tacoma area, and this person responded yes.
In fact, there was someone else who did.
Anyway, it sounded like she liked it, and then I also told her that I had participated
in a number of the Zoom groups and that I was working my way through a heart work.
And she sent me a, I guess, a heart symbol, you know, back after me sending that.
So my question is, just contemplating the next move, such as somehow making contact,
or if it's possible, maybe sending a friend request.
Just anyway, I'm just kind of, don't want to jump in too quickly, for sure.
All right, well, yeah, I definitely would.
She sent the last message, she sent you a heart?
Yeah.
How long ago was that?
That was just yesterday.
Okay.
Well, we want to respond.
Gentlemen, first of all, I love it when y'all make the first move.
All women love it when y'all make the first move.
We like that.
But secondly, don't leave us on read for too long.
What does that mean?
That means we know you saw our message, and there isn't any response, because a lot of
times if we think you're cute or we think you're interesting, we're on pins and needles
waiting for you to respond to us.
So any response is better than no response at all.
So I definitely would send a friend request for sure, and then also let her know that
you're sending one.
Say, hey, I sent you a friend request, so we can continue the conversation.
Just let her know that you sent it, hopefully.
Some people are real weird about friending people on Facebook that they don't know, even
though she's talking to you.
She might not be friends right away if that's if that's the case and you're going to continue to
talk to her that way but suggest a phone call instead of just texting back and forth you know
friend request her and then suggest a phone call say hey you know would you like to talk on the
phone sometime would you you know like to do a zoom or you know i'm probably not going to give
you her phone number but guess what messenger has built-in face time right yes i've done that too
yeah so go ahead and suggest hey would you like to face time over messenger here and
you know talk a little bit and so that would be the next move that i would suggest you do
okay great thanks thank you and guys we want you guys to be the ones that suggest the face-to-face
whether it's the messenger or the zoom or the coffee or the walk whatever it is we we would
love for you to be the person that initiates that um and so that'd be great right so we do
have some sex questions in the chat renee and and it looks like it looks like i got the most of them
but feel free to pop in and say what you want to say to it oh you think that there isn't any more
okay wait there's one for jackie david i feel like it's christmas and there's a present that's
says jackie and david how did you maintain sexual boundaries as neighbors while courting
yeah it was really hard it was super hard right because we were very into each other we were very
attracted to each other by that time by that time when we're because you guys we dated for a very
short amount of time we were neighbors for four or five months and then we dated for a few months and
we were only engaged for 17 days you guys um and here's the thing everyone needs to acknowledge
and i don't know if renee covered this but please acknowledge when you do get into a serious
relationship acknowledge that you really are anticipating the sexual part of your relationship
but that is not a reason to rush the nuptials that is not a reason to rush into getting married just
so that you can you know you can uh have sex legally right that's not a reason to do it and
um a lot of times if that really is something that's causing you to want to rush the engagement
kind of take a better look at that and um and and i'm not just saying that for um the guys on here
but ladies if you are in a relationship with someone and you know you got to level three pretty
quickly and you feel like they're rushing you to the altar we got to take a deeper look at that
okay because a lot of times it's it is about the the lust factor the excitement factor and there's
nothing wrong with feeling super sexually attracted and aroused by someone and wanting
to end up you know in bed with them but once it's over you got to be compatible you got to be
compatible outside of the bedroom and so we got to make sure that we're not letting people rush us
so back to me and david um how did we well first of all i will tell you david and i were both
married before as you guys know so we both have had sex before um once again very attracted to
each other but also resolute in the idea that we did not want to have sex before marriage if you
are really in it to win it with that then there isn't anything that's going to cause you to do
that before you make that covenant and we were resolute in that we had both made a decision
that we were not going to we're going to do things god's way matter no matter how much we didn't want
to do it god's way we were going to do it god's way and me specifically because in my first marriage
i didn't do it god's way and that marriage was a train wreck in a dumpster fire
especially in the sexual department and so i was like you know i'm gonna do it god's way this time
and so being resolute inside yourself the bible says that you have the spirit
of not fear but the spirit of love power and self-control and so don't be laying around on
each other right don't be laying that that's not a gun in his pocket well it might be if you're in
texas but it's probably not it probably a knife yeah well or a knife once once that joins the
party it's probably time to go home all right you're doing something that you probably don't
want to you don't want to start fires that you can't put out and so that's a good rule of thumb
especially when we're adults and we have our own homes and our own apartments and we can do whatever
we want inside of those places there isn't a parent or a chaperone or someone telling us no
and so that's when we have to really be
leaning into that spirit of self-control. So that's the best. You guys, we came very,
very, very close to saying, oh, the heck with it. But it was always that restraining of,
you know what? I want to see what this looks like doing it God's way.
I really want to see what's different in this area if we really do it God's way.
I just really wanted that. I really wanted to see what that looked like. And I'm glad I did.
I do not regret it even one second. All right. Any other questions for us? Any
rest questions for the single Pringle, for Renee? We run into different things, right?
We'll tell you what it's like now and what it was like at the serious part of our relationship.
But then Renee was here to tell you, you know, basically the boat most of you are rowing right
now. I think it was good. You guys, I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of good feedback
in the comments. I feel like people had good, good stuff. And I got good questions. I got a
lot of good questions ahead of time that I made sure I tackled. So I think it was good. I think
it was a good, honest, heart to heart. And people stayed on the call. I still see faces. No one's
hiding. Sounds good. Someone just said, especially if you're a pyromaniac and that
just makes me want to laugh out loud. That's great. I see a question from Jackie and David
from Liz earlier in the chat. Okay. Let me look. I'm glad we got to you guys. I love talking about
sex. I'm glad that we were able to make it into this conversation at the end. Jackie and David,
did you feel less of a connection because of waiting? I'm in my first relationship where I
haven't had sex. And sometimes I feel scared because I worry he's not into me because he's
not pushing boundaries and actually will set a boundary. If I push it and remind me, he wants
to wait for marriage. Ah, good guy. Sometimes I feel the relationship is lacking something without
the sexual connection. I can't put a finger on it, but I feel like I love touch and I miss that
and wonder what it's like with him. Okay. And so then this is where you have to start looking at
your attachment style. Your attachment style has always been based on sex. That's how you,
that's how you felt connected. That's how you felt like someone wanted you or someone liked you or
someone found you attractive. That shouldn't be how you know those things about somebody.
And I love what she said in this, you gentlemen, the ones that are here, the ones that will watch
and replay. I really believe in my heart of hearts that the man, the masculine should set
the boundary when it comes to sex, not the feminine, the masculine should, the man should,
the man should set the boundary when it comes to sex. Because even if the woman is
playing to allow you to do that with her outside of a marriage covenant, you should be the man
and not do that with her. Because I'm just going to tell you, even if you marry that woman later
on, she's not going to respect you. You're like, but she wanted it. Yeah. In the heat of the moment,
she did want it. And as the man, you should have said, no, we're not going to do this.
I respect you. I love you for you than this. And I want us to save this for when we make a covenant
to each other. That is a very, very divinely masculine thing to do of protecting her, even
if you have to protect her from herself. Makes sense. So I love it. I love that Liz's boyfriend
is doing this. And I know right now it's kind of making you feel like, oh, he's not that into me.
No, it's actually showing a level of maturity.
You're like, wow, you know, you take you take the sexual contact out of a relationship,
then the relationship kind of becomes boring. You know, then you have to take a look at
why do you feel that way about sex? Why is that how you're feeling significant?
Why is that where you feel seen and feel known and love? And also, ladies coming from control.
If we can't control a man sexually, we can't make him want us and make him call back because,
you know, he's excited about our next sexual encounter.
Then we feel like we're losing control over that man. And that is the dark feminine.
If you can keep a man coming back without seducing him.
If you can keep a man wanting to call you and go out with you and wanting to be in relationship
with you without using your sexuality to manipulate him, then you have a man that actually truly
deeply cares about you and isn't just there for the benefits.
Amen.
I think that's a good answer.
Some men are agreeing with me that they should definitely lead in this area.
And you know what?
She might get mad at you.
I've had men, I've coached men that have told me, yeah, you know what?
I know that we think that men are the only ones out on these dating apps that want to
have sex and are sending us eggplant emojis.
If you don't know what that means, ask a teenager or some young person in your life
and they will tell you.
But it isn't just the men that are wanting that kind of validation.
Women are out there too wanting that validation.
And I get men all the time, I've coached men that say, hey, you know, I'm on dates with
women and you know, they want to kiss, they want to make out, you know, why?
Because she's trying to get validation.
She wants, you know, she wants him, she wants to feel liked and, you know, attractive and
all those things.
But it's happening to men too.
Christian men who want to save that for marriage are also trying to be pushed into sexual things,
not just women.
All right.
Do we have any other questions?
Hey Jackie, I want to ask a question, I've kind of sort of asked this before.
Let's say you're in that level three stage and or I was not in a level three, but I had
a guy ask me that, but it was inappropriate.
So I wanted to know, is it even, well, he didn't ask me that.
He told me something.
And I wanted to know if it was, if you're in a level three is when, you know, when you
start having those, maybe you're in Cymbis or some other premarital counseling and you
start having those conversations about sex and anatomy or what people's body look like.
And if a man is upfront about the lack of anatomy, how do you handle that?
If you're at a level three relationship, a marriage minded courtship with someone, and
they're worried as a man that they're not going to satisfy you.
And that, you know, that it's all about, you know, cause there's the rumor out there that
size matters.
Right.
And we all know what we're talking about here.
And here's the situation.
It's not, it's not, it's, it's not about the size matters.
It's about what, what you do with what you got.
Right.
And everyone's going to have all kinds of different sexual things that are either hangups
or things based on trauma, things based on culture, things that we think we're supposed
to like.
I'm just going to get graphic with all y'all.
A woman's vaginal canal at the most is about four to five inches deep.
Anything more than that's pretty big waste of time.
All right.
Sorry, Renee.
And so I'm just going to tell you that all of those things that we hear in culture, we're
supposed to be counter-cultural people.
We're kingdom people.
We're not supposed to take a page from the playbook of culture.
Sex is not just about orgasms.
It's not just about, you know, people, you know, getting, you know, pleasure.
It is about intimacy.
It's about emotional intimacy.
And this is going to, it's going to freak some of you out that have never had this.
And you're like, how in the world can this be part of it?
It's about spiritual intimacy.
And some of you are like, well, I've never in my life.
Yes, you haven't.
But you know what?
May your next sexual encounter be with a covenant partner that wants to be spiritually intimate
with you.
Because I'm going to tell you what I call porn sex.
That's the kind of sex where they just use your body and you use their body.
And then after it's all over, everybody feels ashamed of themselves.
Even when you're married to them.
Because that is not what that's supposed to be like.
So to answer Tiffany's question, first of all, I don't think that it's necessary.
I think, you know, it's kind of like Christmas.
Let's let it be a surprise.
We don't need to know.
Unless you have some kind of medical problem, like impotent, you know, there's, there's,
there's impotence there, or there's some sort of sexual dysfunction or something else.
And it's like, I don't know.
There's impotence there, or there's some sort of sexual dysfunction or something else.
And in Simbis, we do encourage people to talk about these things.
You definitely want to talk about those things.
those things. But as far as, you know, let me describe it to you,
see what you think of it. No, that isn't that's not necessary.
That is not necessary. And I think that it's degrading,
honestly, to you and to them. And the fact that they would
need to do that or feel like they wouldn't be enough, shows
me that they have heard too many rumors, too much locker room
talk that has to do with the broken and curse culture that
we're in, instead of the kingdom culture that we represent. And
so and here's the other thing, if you're just dating someone,
and you're really not not like, you're not in a marriage cut,
like a marriage courtship yet. A lot of times if someone starts
talking like that, I had, I promise you, I had one couple
that I was dealing with, that were dating, they were not
courting, they weren't getting married anytime soon, but they
were dating. And they were dating within this community.
And they ended up sleeping together. And they ended up
sleeping together off of the stupid question. I don't, I
don't know if I'm really that attracted to you. Oh, well,
let's have sex and see if you're if you could be attracted to me
or not. What? What? So I feel like when people start talking
about their genitalia, start describing things start, you
know, wondering if it's going to be satisfying to you or not. I
feel like that's a slippery slope that could lead to a lot
of things that you don't want it to lead to. Anyone else feel
that way?
So
I just want to say thank you, Jackie and David for holding safe
space for us to even have this conversation. The church has
done so much of us so much damage. And I'm thankful for us
to have a holy conversation that's also honest. So thank
you for holding space.
Absolutely. I it's so important. And Jen asked, how do we set
realistic expectations for the wedding night? Especially if you
were married before and it's been a hot minute? Yeah, that's
such a good question. Because here's the thing. The thing is,
is that if it's been a hot minute, that means that the
wedding night is going to last a hot minute. It's probably going
to be over really quickly. It is. And that's why friends, when
it is time to be intimate again, let's put a lot of emphasis on
what we call foreplay. What is that? That's just being intimate
with each other, kissing each other and snuggling with each
other and talking with each other in this moment. You know,
it doesn't have to be straight to, you know, the the main
event. And so you want to take some time. All right. I'm just
going to call David Dorman out because he's here. But my
husband, he made a mixtape. He made a mixtape for our
honeymoon. And wait, should I tell him about the bubbles and
the smoke? Okay, y'all, we say that we stayed in a bed and
breakfast on our wedding night. That was the only time we've
ever stayed in a bed and breakfast. That was the first
time in the last time. I don't think that I think that we're
actually not allowed to come back. And the reason why is
because it was in the basement of this beautiful farmhouse out
and not farmhouse, but old house out in Amish country. So it was
like the the entrance was outside entrance. It went down
to the suites that had a hot tub. It had a fireplace. It had
all the things. And so we went straight there. We got we eloped
in like a little chapel in Amish country with just our kids and
our parents. Then we went to this bed and breakfast. And the
fire was already going. And the hot tub was already warm. And so
my husband, he's 36 years old. I'm 32 years old. We're now you
know, Dave's over 50. I'm almost there. He didn't know that much
about a lot of the things that were going on there. And so
because because of that, he ended up the flu got cold
basically, that's the bottom line. So we we left the fire
was kind of burning, we let it kind of get cold. And then we
came back, we left for a minute, we got some Mexican food,
because we were really hungry. We came back to this room. And
long story short, I went into the bathroom to change, you
know, to change, get a little sexy and change. And when I came
out, my husband had put bath and body works bubble bath in the
jacuzzi. Okay, put a couple drops of that in the jacuzzi.
And he didn't realize the flu had gotten cold and close. So
when I came out of the bathroom, you guys I had to stop drop and
roll. I was on the floor crawling across the floor of
this air of this, of this bed and breakfast because the entire
room was filled
with black smoke and bubbles.
The whole room, it was like a scene of the Brady Bunch.
It was crazy.
And I crawled, I crawled the floor,
I crawled the floor and I crawled up the steps
and out of the house and I was sitting out there
in this white robe that they provided,
these like cotton white robes,
covered with soot and bubbles.
Covered with smoke, soot and bubbles.
And some man walked by, ended up being the guy
that owned the bread and breakfast.
And he said, he said, hmm, he said, honeymoon?
And I said, yes, sir.
And he said, carry on.
That's literally what he said.
It was crazy.
It was crazy town.
And so yeah, that put a huge damper
on the romance of that night.
But once again, my husband made a mixtape.
And so on your honeymoon night, Jen,
you're gonna wanna pack a lunch and stay a while, all right?
It's gonna be, it's gonna be,
listen, it's gonna be like a baseball game.
There should be several innings to this game.
It's not a situation where, you know,
you wanna rush anything.
And that's how it's gonna be really enjoyable for you
because otherwise, once again, you go to the main event,
that's gonna be very, very, very, very fast.
And remember, for those of you that have never been married,
you guys need to hear this.
And you've, and for those of you that are virgins,
you've never had sex,
you get to a place of familiarity with that person
where, you know, in a good way,
where you're just really comfortable.
You're really just in a space where you trust each other.
Sex is so good when you trust each other emotionally,
you trust each other spiritually,
you trust each other physically.
And then it'll get longer.
The times between start and climax will get longer
and longer and longer, hopefully for most people.
And especially if you add in the things
that I'm talking about.
So that's what you do.
Donovan, I'm glad we can entertain you.
I agree, I think this is great.
I'm just glad we get some social help like I do
because for our marital status,
for people that don't know what they're doing
or have heart problems,
because this is their only life tutoring.
I've had life tutoring from school to work,
independent living, and now this for my marital status.
Yeah, well, you're going to be well equipped.
So friends, remember that this is why you need to be,
this is one of the reasons
why you need to marry your best friend.
Best friends make the best lovers
because this is a place in your life
where you're just really going to want
to be able to trust that person.
Just really trust them and really know
that they deeply care about you
and about your feelings in all ways,
in this area and then the other way.
And guys and women,
intimacy does not start in the bedroom.
It starts in the kitchen.
It starts in the living room.
It starts in the car when you're driving together
and you're fussing and fighting or telling someone
how to do something critical.
There isn't anything that kills a man's sexual desire
more than a critical and nagging wife.
And there isn't anything
that kills a woman's sexual desire
more than a man who only wants to touch her
or only wants to be romantic or say nice things to her
when he wants that outcome.
Women have to be,
the foreplay doesn't just start in the bedroom.
It starts in the morning when y'all are eating breakfast
before you go off your separate ways for working.
The way you talk to each other,
the way you smile at each other.
Never stop flirting when you get married.
David and I, we are some flirty people.
All right?
And we've been married for 16 years.
So I'm just gonna tell you, it's not gonna stop.
This is never gonna end.
And we laugh and we joke around
and all the things that you do during that courting stage,
you're gonna wanna take that into the marriage.
That's what's gonna give you
that beautiful, healthy, intimate life.
And for those of you that are gonna have kids,
you're gonna add kids to the mix
or maybe you already have blended families,
the times that you're truly sexually intimate
may be few and far between.
Kids have a way of just killing your libido a little bit.
And there's just all kinds of different things that happen.
I remember one time I was sexting my husband.
I was sending him, oh my God.
I was sending him all of this kind of like,
saying this and saying that.
And we were on a family vacation at the time and he wasn't with me.
The problem is, is I didn't know that our 18 year old daughter, Kaylee, had his phone
and not him.
So she was getting these, she was, these text messages were popping up on his phone from
me because she had borrowed his phone to do whatever.
And you know, they weren't, I mean, they weren't crazy.
They weren't like X rated or nothing, but they was definitely R rated.
And anyway, when we all got back together, I just remember my daughter's face.
She just looked at me and she was like, I had dad's phone today.
And I was like, and then I was like, well, I guess, you know, I guess, I guess this was
a great education for you then.
So, but you know, keep it fresh, be able to, you know, and once again, it's not just
about the act.
It's not just about the sexual act.
It's about the respect.
It's about the honor that you carry for that person in everyday life.
That's what it's about.
Relationships that are built on lust.
Those relationships.
Yeah.
It's hot in the bedroom until, until it's not.
And then after it's over with, there's shame there, there's fear there.
There's disconnection there.
This is why we don't have sex outside of covenant.
It actually, did you know that sex outside of covenant actually creates disconnection
instead of connection?
It'll actually do the exact opposite of what God has ordained it to do.
Sex has been ordained to bring connection, to bring oneness to a covenant couple.
If you have sex with someone that you're not in a covenant with, it will actually cause
disconnection.
You might've liked that person before, but now you're going to start getting kind of
suspicious of them.
You're going to start feeling disconnected from them.
You're going to start feeling jealous about them or paranoid, or, you know, you're going
to start, you know, thinking sketchy thoughts about them because you, you entered into a
holy act in an unholy way.
You brought all kinds of dis in there, this, this, this, this.
I can't tell you how many people show up in my inbox after they've been dating someone
very seriously.
Yes.
Within this community, very seriously, it looked like it was going to go all the way
to marriage, you know, was going really, really, really well.
And then they're like, they broke up with me.
What do you, what, wait, what the, yeah, they just, they broke up with me.
The very first question I ask when that happens is, did y'all have sex?
And 99% of the time, the answer is yes.
Causes disconnection y'all don't do it.
Do not do it.
It's not about raw laws or rules.
It's not about laws or rules.
It is about God's way is the best way.
And there's a reason why God does the things that he does his way.
There's a reason.
And it's not just to keep you from having fun.
Uh, I'm a Jackie.
Oh, we just had time for one more.
We're just going to have time for one more question, Hunter.
So go ahead.
Tell it to me in 15 seconds or less so we can let everyone go.
I think I just, uh, maybe, uh, when I heard if we're dating, I understand we should have
sustained it physically and set boundaries where we kiss on a cheek.
Would it hurt to just kiss on the cheek and just leave it there and not on the mouth or
lips?
Cause that, that makes sense to me.
Oh, Hunter.
That's sweet.
And yes, if that's what you decide between the two of you, then that's wonderful.
Some people may decide to do a little more than that.
They may decide to kiss on the mouth and may decide to, you know, you know, hug a little
bit.
They may decide to hold hands.
You guys, the people that don't actually kiss each other ever before the ceremony, I think
that can be super sweet and very precious and very, you know, holy and supernatural.
If that is the conviction that God has given you, I have seen videos of people like that
where I'm like, wow, that seemed really supernatural.
And then I've also seen videos of people like that where I'm like, wow, that was super weird
and awkward.
So I feel like it go either way, but I, it has to be the conviction of the two people
involved.
I had one couple that didn't even see each other while they were dating.
Like they didn't know what each other looked like for like the first month and they're
married now, you know, I knew what both of them looked like cause I match made them.
But when I found out that they'd been talking on the phone and had never, ever, ever seen
each other besides the pictures that I showed each other of them, I was like, Oh, I don't
recommend that.
So, you know, sometimes people do things that, you know, we as coaches don't recommend and
it's still, it turns out that God told them to do that and, and it works out really well
for them.
So you guys listen to Holy Spirit, let him guide you.
in this area. All right. As long as it doesn't go against God's covenantal laws of this,
then I feel like it's safe for you to let God lead and guide you individually in relationship.
All right. So thanks, Renee, for letting us jump in. David's just sitting here laughing
the whole time. You can tell, you can see he didn't say, you don't want to say nothing.
Oh, I have long answers. That's the problem.
Good news is everything I said completely lined up with everything you said. So I feel good that
I've been a good student this whole time. You have, you've been a good student and,
and you guys, it's never too late to stop doing things the wrong way. It isn't. So if you've been
doing it the wrong way, because you thought that that was where you were getting significance,
you're really hoping that, you know, that was going to cause things to go to marriage,
you know, or, you know, you just really miss being touched and you really just,
you know, all the things we get it, but you, you can, you can stop now. You can repent,
turn away from that, turn to God's way. And I promise you it will, it will go way better for
you in the future. All right. Love y'all. Thanks for letting us stop in.