Gentlemen, how are you?
You can hear it.
I think you can hear me.
Yeah, we can.
I saw I was on mute.
Hey, David, how are you?
We can hear you as well.
What was that?
I just said, hey.
Hey, hey.
How are you guys doing tonight?
I have my Central Machine Works hat on tonight.
That is a, I think it's like an old
building that used to have like a shop or like a factory or some sort of in it.
It's not really big, but now it's a brewery.
And so they have like inside and outside seating, like a picnic tables.
It's kind of a cool little place here in Austin.
Like dozens and dozens and dozens of places just like that.
And then, yeah.
So we ate there Sunday and had food and it's really good.
They have good pizza, hamburgers and stuff.
And so it's kind of cool.
Anyway, do you live in Austin, David?
I live in Austin.
I don't live in Austin proper, but I do live in the Austin area.
I live a little town north of Austin.
Yeah.
How wonderful.
Yeah.
So we've been here for about seven years.
We enjoy Austin.
It's hot, but I can't complain about that because I moved away from Columbus, Ohio,
Midwest, which I love.
I love Columbus.
I love Ohio.
Grew up there, but it's got winter and it has snow and you have to shovel your driveway
and I don't like that.
I didn't want to do that anymore.
And it can get like single digits.
It can get really crazy.
Weather's just, I don't know, so unpredictable now these days.
Who knows even what is going to happen.
But anyway, I got down here and I was like, look, I can't complain about cold and heat.
You got to pick one or the other.
Like you got to like, like cold and hate heat or whatever, you know, can't come down the
hot and then start complaining about being hot.
You just move from cold.
What is it?
So I have chosen to be okay with sweating.
You know what?
So we manage it well down here.
Abram, what's the password like for the Zoom meetings?
Uh, do you feel like I'm trying to, uh, I prefer to go on Skype.
I'm trying to zoom on my computer.
Oh, so you like put in, put it in manually, like to access the, yeah.
And I'm so, I'm so, um, not familiar with the software here.
I know it's a reoccurring meeting.
It's probably a way to save and stuff or whatever, but yeah, you can like even put the link.
I mean, the link that we usually share, I think, how do you know, how do you get the
link right now from Facebook?
Well, normally, yeah.
Facebook would have all the information.
I just copy paste, copy, paste, and then join.
But the Facebook pages is changed.
None of that information, none of those links are there anymore.
And it just said, I think on there through the app on my phone.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Which that worked for you pretty good.
What part on the phone?
Just the linking out from the app.
Oh yeah.
That was super, that was super simple.
Yeah.
Oh, that's great.
I just don't want to hold my phone.
That's good because there's several people that were having problems with that, but, um,
but I think it's just more of a user error on that end of it because, um, the linking
out from the app has actually been working pretty good across the board.
So I just, I'm always asking about that now just to make sure.
Yeah.
Thomas, that's the, that's the password 377-977.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
And so, yes, go ahead.
Uh, so the, um, but it's just good.
Yeah.
If you guys have any like technical issues, definitely mention them on this call because,
um, I, I definitely want to go in there and fix stuff every now and then when we've got
it.
So, um, of course we have like the feedback system and there's like a, it's like a Google.
Um, uh, doc or Google forms thing that we have in there to like give feedback on the,
on the app, but appreciate any feedback you guys have because a lot of tech guys on here
and I appreciate any help we can get.
Our, our, our system, our business is kind of a simple business, but it's surprisingly
can get surprisingly complicated in terms of the technology that we could, you know,
technology that we could just to deliver it.
And then on top of that, developing technology.
That's actually really slick and cool and like does really neat things. So I mean you get really really complicated really quick
as I'm sure you all
Know and understand and can appreciate
So, uh, thanks guys for being here I love seeing y'all we're getting used to this
Every Monday night. It's really great. I'm enjoying I'm enjoying the camaraderie. I'm enjoying the the banter and the going back and forth. Um, I
Just want to pray for us father God, we just thank you right now Lord for each one of these men
You thank you right now and just bless and appreciate
each of them and their their own uniqueness their sonship and
Where they're at the process and the position in life where they're at and the process that they're going through
Just working out their own salvation before you and through you and with you
so I just thank you for that and we just invite you Holy Spirit onto this time together in this call and
just let us be led and
orchestrated and inspired and lifted up
Because of you in Jesus name. Amen. Amen
Anything you guys want to talk about tonight? I've got something that I was
Wanted to to work through a little bit
But anything on anybody's heart mind like hey
I've been thinking about this or I have a question about that or like to kind of
Bring this up as a topic of discussion anything
Right now that's on on your mind
want to open that up a little bit we can sort of take a vote or
If it's not a topic that's like exciting we'd be like, yeah, no, I don't want to talk about that
We're talking about something else. So what I can't I
Got one that like envious because I envy people who who get to get to be in a marriage or a ship
But I sometimes
Can be him so much. I really want to crush them
But because I'm falling behind and I want the same opportunities everybody
So everything is the only thing that prevents me to not envy is that think about the blessings I have
Yeah, I like it when people rejoice when I got so if I did try I should try doing that to someone else
Got it. Got it. Envy. Okay
Envy
Okay, I wasn't sure is envy or the violence behind envy because I heard the word crap
I heard the word I want to did I hear you sound like crush them sometimes?
Okay
I'm not going to I know I know it's illegal and and rightfully so
it's just I always try to compare my life to others because I want success and I really
Cuz I how bad things were in school and I set out to make my life great
Of course a little my mom is already proud of me, especially with what I'm doing
Well hunter I met you in person several times
And so I know maybe maybe you just meant that and you were a little heavy-handed with the whole crushing thing
but so we have grace and and
For you on that. Um, yeah, so we talked about that
anything else
guys
Suggestion David. Uh, is there a way to increase your volume a little bit? Oh, yeah. I sure I guess
I
Think I
Appreciate you bringing up Envy Hunter. I think that's probably something all of us have experienced and I
Appreciate your honesty about about those feelings I think
One other thing I've been wondering about
And I understand there might be books on this topic or whatever else, but I know Jackie's kind of talked a lot about
Attachment theory recently and
Months and so I I think
If there's specific wisdom whether from you David or from the group about
You know for those of us who have done the work of like testing and finding out our attachment style
Steps for us to be able to move towards kind of a healthy attachment style
Could maybe be a point
Definitely we can talk about that. I I will admit I am NOT up to speed on our
attachment theory
topic within our group
Because believe it or not
Jackie and I don't sit around talk about this all the time
But sometimes we do so surprisingly, I know a lot more than maybe what I probably
You know should but that is a subject area I've not delved deeply into and I've heard
Incursory like being around her talking about that. Of course, I know that's some of the stuff that we're putting together
so definitely we can get into that for sure, but
It's been talked about a lot in terms of especially around our household
Avoiding attachment avoiding and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, we definitely get it get into some of that
we
You can even talk about it tonight if you'd like to.
And just in theory, again, I don't
have a lot of teaching that I've done studying up
on that particular topic.
But we can definitely talk about it
if you want to comment on it, want to ask any questions.
To me, not right now, but I'll definitely get into it.
We'll get into some.
I'm pretty familiar with attack necessary and all that stuff.
I've done a lot of research on it.
Good, Mike.
Me too.
Me too as well if you want to share with me.
We want to share with each other.
Absolutely.
One of the things that I wanted to do,
and I'll bring this up, well, so first and foremost, Thomas,
you brought this topic up to us.
What is your question or comment about it
succinctly that you would like to address?
Do you have questions about it, or do you
have thoughts that you have like, hey,
this might be what I'm dealing with or whatever?
Yeah, thanks.
What a thoughtful question.
I think in addition to continuing
to want to honor what Hunter said,
this week on the dating resume call,
I had put something that I felt like God had communicated
to me that it's important that my heart says yes
to the person that I'm with.
And Jackie said, I want to raise a yellow flag with that
if you're dealing with avoidant.
So for me, after taking some multiple quizzes and things
along those lines, I've pretty regularly come out
as disorganized in my attachment.
So I think the specific question that I have been processing
through myself is, what does it look
like to be able to look for either red or yellow flags
in terms of being in relationship
and learning how to choose to take steps
towards a healthier attachment style?
So I'm more than happy to get some of Dan Siegel's books
and read about it.
Or the book Attached, I know, is very popular right now,
things along those lines.
So very happy to do that research.
But it was something that had come up recently.
And since you had asked if there were things
we were thinking about, that's something.
This week, I ended something with someone.
And I had to do a lot of thinking
after Jackie said that about, is this a healthy letting go?
Or is this an unhealthy letting go?
You had just recently released a connection
of relationships of some sort.
I did.
I did end a level two relationship on Saturday.
Oh, OK.
Got it.
What was the reasoning for the releasing of the relationship?
You felt like this wasn't a relationship for now,
or there wasn't a compatibility?
So I think it brings up really interesting questions
about, when we talk about spiritual, emotional,
physical, intellectual compatibility,
what exactly are we looking for, how similar, how different?
I felt like there was some amount
of spiritual compatibility.
This is someone who's less charismatic than I would be,
less focused on the Holy Spirit and prophecy
and that kind of stuff, but more deeply
into spiritual formation concepts and things
along those lines.
So when I asked about, oh, what are your experiences
with the Spirit of God?
She really said, oh, well, everything comes from emotion,
and so took it more into my understanding
the realms of the soul.
So there was some of that, which I was kind of like, well,
people can grow in that area.
And then I would say there was a lack of physical attraction,
which I would say raises more flags for me
in terms of attachment style.
I think intellectually, I think we were a pretty decent fit.
Emotionally, it seemed like we were a decent fit.
It seemed like to me that spiritually and physically,
that was where it didn't really seem to,
where I felt like my heart was kind of like saying no.
Yeah.
Does that answer your question?
Yeah, Rob or Mike, do you have any comments that come up
in terms of like, especially?
is in terms of like, Thomas's original question. Like, what
is something?
So, typically, so it sounds like, Thomas, you have a pretty
good look at it. Avoidant usually they look for, they
start nitpicking things. They like finding ways to eject,
right. So like, they'll be like, you know, and because, because
love has been scary to them. Right. So, you know, whenever
they've been loved, it's, it's blown up. And so they start
feeling loved. And they're like, Oh, no, this is gonna blow up.
So I need to find a way out. So Thomas, I don't see you doing
that. Right? I see you actually going, okay, we're not fully
equally yoked. So that's, you know, if you were like, you
know, that's legitimate. That's legitimate concern, not being
able to share the Holy Spirit and walk in the same way. I
mean, can people grow? Yeah. But you really don't want to
presuppose that, then, and you're, Thomas, I don't know, I
think you're a fairly secure dude. You know, in a lot of your
ways. I mean, I'm not, I'm not watching your, you know, I'm not
in your relationships. But um, yeah, I think avoidance just
tends to cerebralize it. If that's a word. You know,
intellectually. Yeah, it's analysis paralysis, but it's,
it's for the purpose of leaving. Right? Not for
discerning. Objectively. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's kind
of how the avoidant goes. Right?
Yeah, I'm curious, Thomas, since you thanks for giving, putting
yourself out there as an example. But I, since you know
that you're disorganized attachment style, like you,
sounds like you've done some work, which would tell me that
you know what maybe some of those triggers are. As you take
a step back, I guess it's only been a couple days. But do you
feel like any of those disorganized triggers were
present as you evaluated the decision?
You know, I haven't seen as much information about the
disorganized style, because I know it's it's what about 10% of
the population, I think. So I think that with the I've seen
like in the book attached, it seemed like it talked a lot
about avoidance and a lot about anxious, but it didn't really
seem like there was very much about disorganized. So I'm not
as aware of kind of the particular triggers, unless you
say, Oh, well, it's just a combination of both, which I
think I've heard some people say. So I think that for me, one
of the one of the one thing that maybe might be considered a
trigger might be that I was concerned that I was kind of
like making excuses for like, kind of like you were you were
saying, Mike, I think I have in the past kind of been nitpicky.
And so this time, I think we went out around six times over
about seven weeks. So it's in you know, we did different
things. We did an escape room together, we like did some other
kinds of stuff, like both activity and kind of sitting and
like eating and that kind of thing. We toured a house like an
architectural house together, which was really fun. That's
cool. I didn't also just kind of like, didn't seem to enjoy
sharing time with her. So I'm not sure. But then then that
kind of triggers the question of like, Oh, well, but that is
that because I'm unhealthy, you know, or is it because, you
know, because I'm being healthy and paying attention to how I'm
feeling. And ultimately, it felt and I stayed up really late,
which I think was also kind of another trigger is symbol of
anxiety was being just really kind of concerned about whether
I was kind of doing this healthfully or not healthfully.
But ultimately, it kind of felt like it felt best to let go. I
think one other thing that I was really concerned about was that
this was a connection through a married friend. And I really
didn't want to let that married friend down by ending it. And I
think that's not the best reason to stay in a relationship
either. So that I don't know, I think that was also something
that I felt pretty anxious about.
Wow. Amazing. Go ahead, James. No seven days. It sounds pretty
painful. You're pretty resilient. You, you, you, you
did all you could it sounds like
I pretty serious college tribe for sure. Seven, seven days, six
days and seven days or whatever.
Yeah.
That's like some cool dates, by the way. Shifting topics. Tell
us about how creative your dates are. No, I know. For me,
I'll just speak from my own experience. Because my, my
anxious, what I'm what I'll be paying attention to are those
triggers. But then when I find myself acting out of my kind of
coming from my my natural attachment style, I find
myself reacting as opposed to being making centered decisions,
centered, thoughtful, careful decisions, I find myself, you
know, the word reacting comes to mind, but acting out of some
form of that attachment style fear, you know, of losing
anxiousness and neediness. For me, that's all shows up for me.
And so as I think about, you know, that potential situation,
which I'm not in a dating relationship, those are things
I'll be looking for, am I acting? Am I thoughtfully
intentionally acting? Or am I reacting? And if if you were to
apply that, it sounds like to me, you put a lot of centered,
thoughtfulness around your decision, if that's helpful at
all. So
thanks. Yeah, I get the impression based on, you know,
how you described it, how you talked about what you were going
through and your thought process, I don't get the sense
that you were being avoidant, just on the sheer being avoidant,
because you were concerned or afraid or, or trying to, like,
you know, not connect, that seemed like you were being just
very evaluative. And I guess I think my next question is, is do
you get the sense that
um, the the, the girl that you're with that she felt the
same? Like it wasn't mutual? Or was she? Was she disappointed?
Do you think? I mean, I don't know whether she said so or not.
But do you think in and of yourself in terms of her
reaction? Do you think it was like, Oh, yeah, this is probably
not?
I think that's also a good question. I think that we had a
really good talk on Saturday. And I had been really strongly
considering ending things the week before, and kind of brought
up, hey, we've been seeing each other for like over a month now
just wanted to like check in. And I think her response to that
conversation was really good and healthy. And she was like, Yeah,
you know, I'm enjoying like getting to know you and and we
had like she had been very avoidant of any kind of physical
contact, which is pretty much fine. But she was like really
nervous that like me even kind of like kissing her on the cheek
was kind of like too much. Which is which is okay. You know, I
think different people have different kind of sensitivity
levels for sure. That kind of thing. But then that night, we
kind of sat in the park and I was like, like, you know, is
there anything so I told her like, I'm really kind of
processing and I'll be continuing to process. Is there
anything that you're processing? Or you'd like us to talk about?
And she was like, Yeah, I've just been wondering, like, have
you been married before? And like, so we had a good kind of
discussion about things she was interested in. And I was able to
ask some kind of deeper questions, which was helpful.
And this was after you had told her or this was this was this
was last week. Because of that conversation, and it started to
feel a little bit deeper. I was like, okay, well, I'm going to
give this more time then because it doesn't feel like we're kind
of just kind of going along on in a little bit of a shallower
way. Not that it has to be super deep, you know, after six or
seven weeks, right. But then on the way back, she was like, Oh,
would you like to hold my hand? And when I held her hand, I was
like, this does this does not feel right. Like I've held hands
with people when I'm like, this is really great. This is
wonderful. And with her, I was like, No, like, no, I don't. I
don't feel like I want to be holding hands with you. So I
think that that was another thing to me where I was like,
Yeah, well, is that, again, fear of connection? Or is that kind
of a healthy signal to me to be like, there's some there's lots
of parts of me that are saying no. And then so I thought about
it, and then continue to decide whether or not to give it more
time. And then on Thursday, I decided, I've been studying
systems theory, and the idea of sub optimization, which is where
you optimize one part of a system, and it causes kind of a
lack of health to the rest of it. So I was thinking, you know,
I could keep on seeing this person, I feel like I have
enough information to make a decision, I could go extra kind
of super far. But I feel like it
it seemed like I would rather prioritize openness
and freedom to go on dates with other individuals.
And so on Saturday, though, to answer your question,
she said, yeah, you know, I was in a place
where I like, I didn't really know,
I wasn't sure kind of like what was going to happen.
And, you know, but she was in a good place
and we both agreed to be acquaintances.
She lives in Pasadena and I'm in Santa Monica,
so it's also really far.
Okay.
But like the same church together, same.
No, so we might share the office cubicle together.
Yeah, exactly.
No, yeah, we might see each other again at parties
or actually I said maybe this is too soon,
but if I meet other guys who I might feel like
might be a good fit, you know,
if you're okay with that, I'll let you know.
She was like, that would be great.
Yeah, sounds like it ended well.
I think it did.
Good deal.
Well, that's really interesting.
Thanks for sharing.
I really appreciate that, Thomas.
Thanks for being open and so what do you think you,
what do you think you learned from that situation?
Like just in three words or less, you know, like.
I learned the value of care.
I think she was such a caring person
and she did such a good job being incredibly committed
to like the ideas of formation within community
and like being present for like a little girl,
gave her a jar of honey and that kind of stuff.
It was really wonderful and it was a strong contrast
from someone kind of like very physically beautiful
that I went out with about a month ago
who had less kindness and less ability to care.
Less ability to understand kind of like the difficulties
that kind of normal people go through and experience.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like you're the kind of guy
that's very considerate, kind in that way
and so you seeing this reciprocated back to yourself
and her behavior, I'm just assuming,
it kind of sounds like you felt like
that was really refreshing, which is great.
So you're like, oh, okay,
this really does exist, so to speak.
And then when you said that the girl that was,
I don't know how you said it was,
were attractive, physically attractive,
we all perked up and we're like, well, who's that?
Like, how'd that go?
You know, like, I'm just kidding.
But obviously that's not something
that's to be talked about or remembered.
I mean, I didn't talk about it.
I don't want to hog the whole, all the time.
Is that somebody you're still seeing?
No, no, we're in a dream interpretation group together.
Oh, I see.
She was really interesting to me.
So I did ask her out and we went,
we did go on another fun date,
but she was, she is kind of very Holy Spirit filled,
which is awesome, but much,
like kind of not as much thoughtfulness
and not very much compassion.
Yeah.
Okay.
Interesting.
All right.
That was good.
That was a good little bit there.
It was a good conversation.
Thank you so much for sharing and being open about that.
Thanks.
Anything else, guys?
Anybody else got anything else
that they'd like to open up, talk about?
We can talk about Envy in just a second.
Anybody have any comments on Envy?
Like, do you see,
is that an issue that you see in yourself or other people
with regard to seeing married people and going,
you know what?
I, you know, that's, I have a problem with that.
Like I'm from an envious or jealous standpoint.
Anybody?
I do.
I just feel like, okay, you have each other.
I want to stay in touch, but they said, no, I can't.
I'm busy.
Okay, if you can't help or hang out,
I want nothing to do with you anymore.
It's basically, once they're married,
I have to pull the plug on the,
you gave me no choice,
but to pull a plug on the friendship.
Oh, you're talking about being in friends with somebody
who now is in a relationship.
Or married, yes.
Yeah, okay.
I see, yeah.
Yeah, that can be really challenging
because there's a lot to be said
if you're in a relationship.
There are some things sometimes that you feel like
you have certain kind of connections, relationships
that change because of their married status.
And depending on what level of.
relationship. And I mean, no, no husband, new husband wants their wife to be super friends
with another guy. That's just like, not, you know, I'm not saying it's wrong or unacceptable,
but I think probably to a degree, it's kind of like, yeah, no, you know, this is my wife.
Stay away, basically. And so that would be a level of threat, I think. But I think there's
definitely kingdom and loving and compassionate, peaceful ways to obviously deal with that,
right? Rather than like, crush them, obviously. So we can talk more about that. But anybody else,
envy, jealousy, coming up? Cause an issue? I find myself moving toward or experiencing
a deep longing when I engage or interact with a couple, especially a healthy couple or a long
term couple. So I kind of wander between this deep desire and longing, like, I just enjoy
watching what they have. And then I also flow between curiosity, like I really want to study
and soak in what's making that relationship work. And then I also sometimes move into grief,
so maybe not quite in grief of what I lost. And so I allow myself to feel, you know, just
the disappointment of endings, which, you know, for me is, you know, grieving is just a process,
it's not a destination. At least that's been my experience. So depending on the situation,
or the time of day, or whatever might be happening, I kind of triangulate or kind of
bounce around inside of that. But overall, I tend to just observe with a lot of fondness
and desire, like, man, look at what they got. I wonder what it took. I wonder what
sacrifices have been made. I wonder the difficulty, the ruptures and repairs that have
taken place. And, you know, depending on how close I am to them, or how open they are, you know,
I'll even engage in a conversation, or I'll just sit back and just take it in, to be honest,
take in their glory, I think is maybe the best way to say it.
Yeah, that's interesting. I'll share some little anecdote. Like, we, you know, of course, there
was the news over the weekend, right, with this tragic situation with an assassination attempt,
and all the stuff that went down, and somebody innocent died, and, you know, all that. And it
was made my wife and I think about for a second there, we were recounting, we're like, how many,
like, assassination attempts had happened on presidents. And then we started thinking,
like, how many actual, you know, men who were present are still alive. And there happens to be
actually six former presidents alive right now. I believe I get the number right. And, of course,
Jimmy Carter is still alive, technically, although the news report is that he doesn't really wake up
very much. But he's 99 years old. And he will be 100, I think, in October. But one of the little
anecdotes about just coming, you know, like the path of, you know, how you go down the path,
like, well, how many, you know, what about Jimmy? One of the things he said, he said, he's known to
have been said, I didn't think that I would live this long, number one, which was interesting.
And then he actually has been married to his wife for 77 years. 77, can you imagine that?
And he said, also, another thing that his, I guess, he's known to have been said, was
the key to a long life is a good marriage. I went, wow, that's amazing. Like, that's really
interesting. And I know he's a believer. I know he's, you know, a good Bible believing man,
whatever people thought about him as a president or whatever. But, you know, he's taught Bible
studies for decades after having been president and so forth personally, like in his church. I
mean, he would literally show up like weekly Bible studies. I don't know if you know any of that,
but it's really kind of fascinating that the comment of a key to a long life is a good
marriage. And I thought, I found that to be really amazing in this day and age, that that was
somebody's testimony. But I, you know, I'm sure there are people that you know, or they've heard
of, or you've heard their story.
story about long lasting marriages and kind of like the
line along the lines of what Rob was saying about, you know,
boy, what it must have taken to endure a marriage. And I'm not
saying that when you're married, you're basically just enduring.
I'm not saying that obviously, there's tremendous, you know,
benefits and life and heritage and beauty that goes along with
being in relationship like that. But I just think it's it's
interesting to I hear things like that being married 77
years, I'm like, what's that like, you know, like, what is
the you know, we obviously need to hear some secrets and keys
and you know, like tips on like, what that was like, and what it
meant to, to be that. So just sharing that with you just at
this think about so, um, Mike, you have your hand raised. So
Yeah. So I can, I can relate to Rob. What did I just do? Sorry,
I want my phone. I gotta get my computer out. But, you know,
Rob, as far as like, I don't like, I get a longing, like,
you know, longing on what's missed, right? You when you see
a good couple, and I do do a lot of analytics, right? Like,
what's working for them? What is what are they doing? Right? You
know, my great grandparents were married 75 years, they got
married in the depression with the hooks and the crooks is what
they used to say. And you know, one of the things they said to
their longevity was they never lost appreciation for the little
things. Like, I mean, like, they, I mean, 75 years, 70 plus
years in, we're like, you know, thank you for passing this all
like, it was like, they were just they were so grateful for
each other. And, you know, and they and they were the salt of
the world. So you know, it's like, everybody thinks it's the
or not everybody, but a lot of people think it's the big things
that matter. And the more the more I look at it, I look at it's
the little things. It's being able to hold, hold hands and
enjoy each other's company. It's, it's where you both sit
together and your nervous systems deregulate because
you're safe, and you're at peace, right? You know, and your
cortisol levels drop. And like, so no, it's just, it's pretty
cool. Like, it's to see that, you know, you know, and I, you
know, a lot of maturity and learning that, you know, but
like, it is being married in a bad marriage can shorten your
life, but like length, because of all the stress, but actually
having a great marriage can can prolong your your life. Yeah,
yeah. I would agree with that. Yeah. My wife is definitely
contending for the extension of my life, when she slaps that
piece of food out of my hand. So you don't need that. Right
now. Today, we had lunch. And she goes, I was just like, I'm
gonna go to Topo Chico, which is like, you know, like this,
that's the, like the sparkling water, you know, she goes, No,
you don't need that. I'm like, what's wrong with that? It's
just water, you know, she's now drink regular water, like
you're dehydrated. You think like drinking sparkling water
is going to hydrate you? It's not, you know, drink regular
water. And I'm like, Okay, because how much water have you
had today? And I'm like, I don't know, like, I drank coffee.
It's got water in it. She goes, No, that's not water. Drink
regular water. Like, what are you doing? She didn't quite say
knucklehead, but almost. I mean, she quite almost got to the
point. But anyway, it was, it was good. And that's how our
relationship goes. And then we sat and had lunch together. And
it was beautiful thing. So, Thomas, you have your hand
raised. Go ahead.
Yeah. Um, yeah, I really just, I wanted to continue to honor
what you were saying, Hunter, I think that I think it was really
wise that you talked about how comparison can happen when we're
envious. And I think I've definitely felt that, especially
kind of in past years of, you know, then you hear about like,
Oh, yeah, there's health benefits. And it's like, well,
why don't I have those health benefits, you know, and whatever
else, there are so many wonderful things. I think, for
me, and this isn't something that I would say has to be true
for anyone else. But one thing I've really appreciated is the
concept of stewardship. And I feel like that's been a helpful
reframe for me to say, like, okay, well, that person is
stewarding something else. And I'm stewarding what I have. And
do I really believe that God will take care of me. And there
are things that I've made it through that I didn't think that
I would survive, you know, but I think that that God did take
care of me. And that question of how much do I believe that
God will take care of me, I think is a really important one
when I deal with envy sometimes.
Yeah.
And and do I believe that he's promised to, you know, to meet
my heart's desires, like it says in Psalms.
you know, whatever that looks like, even if the road there is a lot harder than I kind of hoped it would be.
Yeah.
Rob, going back to you just for a second, how different are you now, because I know you were
married, and like how different are you now than when you were married as a person?
Because I guess it's interesting that when Thomas brought up that word stewardship,
that's like a huge big topic, but that's one of the things I feel like
from a male's perspective that's so important in the marriage relationship. And of course we
talked about, we put that visual up for like way too long last week about the whole thing,
the umbrella thing, and that brought up a lot of visual. And I think one of the responses,
a lot to that visual, for instance, is kind of like, this is really triggering because it
like puts a lot of too much weight or too much heaviness on the male to be provider. Yeah,
it's one thing if you're looking at it from a female's perspective, like this is an overloading
situation. But I think for males, one of the things that comes up is like, oh, it's too hard,
it's too much, it's too this, whatever. But that stewardship is interesting. How different are you
now than you were as a married man in terms of just your understanding of who you are?
And I don't mean that to be a loaded question. I'm just trying to, I'm just curious.
How much time do you have? Yeah, I'm trying to think of the quickest way to frame that up. I
think that every adjustment, every learning, every kind of grace-filled step that I've taken
in the last five years, I've been separated, divorced for five, total of five. And really
trying to heal, really even four years before that, so we'll talk total of nine. But I really
took the road to recovery, addiction recovery. And then eventually that moved into the idea of
discovery of who God intended when he made me five years ago. So that's kind of, I'll call that my
kind of anchor point. All of that road is paved with what I'll call just a long trail of harm,
a long trail of failure. And so without getting into tremendous detail, I didn't have the most
maturity. In many ways, I was mature. Beyond my years, I started taking care of things that I
shouldn't have had to when I was six, seven, eight, nine. So I was surrogate dad, surrogate husband,
didn't really have a chance to be a boy. So there's a lot of maturity I brought into the
relationship of doing things and caring for things, caring for situations. But there was
just a real lack of emotional maturity. And I subscribe to the idea that emotional maturity
typically is stunted or halted at the age that addiction starts. So in many ways,
I have four adult children and I was the fifth inside of my marriage.
So inside of that, I didn't have the maturity. I certainly didn't bring skill. I didn't bring
the desire to change who I had become. And in fact, addiction really was like a drip IV.
I kind of think about the idea of an IV dripping poison into my heart
that just changes ever so slightly year over year over year over year.
And so I look up one day and start to face the harm that I've caused and enter into those really
difficult conversations with my then spouse and really started to lean into her pain and
harm that I caused. So I mean, it's just a huge wake up call like, oh my gosh, who did I become?
And how did I get here? So all of that was a catalyst to pick up every component of my failure
and really examine it and pick it up. And so to kind of pick it up, look at a 360
degree angle, I had to name it in order to heal from it, name it to tame it.
And so really the last five-ish years have been just a very thoughtful,
intentional, aggressive road to being the kind of man that God wants me to be.
I sat down at some point, I did the math, I don't really keep track anymore,
but I probably have almost 4,000 hours of work over the last five years, you know,
between studying, self-study, examination groups, therapy, intensives, you name it.
And I don't share that to brag, I just share that because honestly, guys,
I had that much ground to make up and I'm really proud of the work that I've done,
but I still feel like it's a lifelong effort for me.
So, it gives you a hand and anytime you ever want to talk either online or offline,
I'd be glad to talk about the specific details because, like I said, in order for me to heal,
I had to get really specific about who I had become.
Yeah.
No, I ask that because a lot of different ways.
When did faith come into your perspective?
Is that something you've always had or grew up with or just like in the beginning or in the middle?
Since I was a kid.
Okay. So, yeah, it's always there.
So, it's just a matter of like, yeah.
Yeah, that came up today as well when I was spending time with my wife.
We were out.
I went to an appointment with her and then we did a few errands and then we just happened to grab lunch.
But we were thinking, I was thinking about my previous ministry experience
and there's some things going on now that are like precipitating from just long line of just,
I think, wrong behavior.
Nothing like extremely, you know, like gratuitous in terms of its scandal,
but definitely just not healthy.
And I was lamenting, like I was talking with my wife and she had mentioned,
she goes, yeah, she goes, I understand now that I know more about that ministry
because my wife went through an equal amount of just usurpations
and abuse in terms of spiritual abuse in her church experience prior to us meeting.
And we were both on the tail ends of that and tail ends of our divorces
when we actually met each other for the first time.
And again, we were just neighbors, you know.
But she said she understood my ex-wife more now in light of some of these things that are coming together
because my ex-wife and I were part of that ministry in the way it was back in the day.
And I said, yeah, I said, you know, there's so many things much,
so many more things I understand now about relationship, about stewardness,
responsibility of husbands and wives and all of that.
Now, having been married to Jackie, just period, let alone the work that we do now,
like with heart work and last year's thing and all that,
just being married to a woman like Jackie who is just like,
she's pretty transformative, very strong nature, but very ideating.
And she has a lot of understanding and a lot of like, she just has a lot of great intuition.
And I said, it's just amazing.
I don't know what I would have been like had I been either married to somebody else
or continue to be married to my ex-wife,
because I hope I would have come into some level of understanding that I have now
to the point where I'm just like, yeah, I still need to,
I think there's some things I still need to articulate to my ex-wife.
Like for the record, like, I'm sorry, first of all,
that we were so intertwined in an environment that was so unhealthy,
even though I had no idea at the time that it even was or that even like,
like, okay, so what else, or, you know, what else do you do?
You know, you don't, you don't know what to do.
Like what, what I've done differently, you know, type thing.
I have no, I can't, I didn't know how to answer that.
But to just to say that even ways that I treated her when we were young teenagers in,
you know, junior high and high school that were just not appropriate, you know,
for a young Christian man, you know, type of thing,
just stuff like that, that really like, because she and Jackie,
their backstory is very similar in terms of how they grew up and the trauma.
And I just had no understanding for the kind of trauma that she,
my ex-wife endured and what she had to deal with.
And now, now that she's dealing with her faith development, which, you know,
we both pray for her and not that I don't think she's.
way out of the sphere, but I think she's developed in a way that's like, I hope she's okay
spiritually. I pray for her to be well and healthy in that way. That just came up.
That's one of the things I feel like is very important for married and for unmarried men
in terms of, and I've said this before, that we're having a crisis right now with masculinity
with regard to healthy, well, righteous masculinity. It's very, very absent from
the front page. It's just either super, just crazy, toxic, terrible, or it's just like a movie
I just saw the other day where one of the major things of the movie is that all the men in the
movie were just extremely not present and completely powerless. It was total abdication
of any kind of stewardship, responsibility, any kind of stepping into who their true identity is.
It was just, a lot of that is just screaming at me right now and wondering, it's just like,
what can we do about it? What kind of conversations can we do? How can we help men
show up? How can we help men rise up? How can we help men understand the nature of stewardship
without putting such a heavy burden? Because the burden is not supposed to be heavy. It's
supposed to be light according to scripture, but it is a certain level of responsibility
needs to be accepted in order to really strike correctly in the power of the masculine and what
it can bring to our lives individually, our families, and our societies and everything.
That's a really strong problem right now. Maybe you guys have some ideas as far as this is what I
see, men need to fill in the blank, whatever it is. It's not a put on. It's like, yeah, men need
to do this. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about where is the healthy invitation,
encouragement, that kind of thing. You're certainly welcome to respond to any of that,
like any of you guys. I just- Thomas, you came off mute first. Do you want to jump in?
Or maybe not. Were you talking to me? We're just unmuted. That's all. You were on mute first. I
said, did you want to jump in first? Oh, I haven't muted myself generally. I got you. You're just
being very, very quiet. I'll just start. I don't have the answer. I just have my own experience to
reflect on. I think that would be appropriate because that's why I asked you the question
before. How different are you now than you are now? You can speak to like, hey, here's a guy
who was obviously not aware or didn't even want to be aware and now super aware. What's that
transition like? Oh, man. Yeah. I wish I had an arrow to fire. This is the one everybody should
put into their quiver and I don't. I've heard you say it. I've heard Jackie say it. I'll come back
to just I think the core of what the both of you are offering in this program and that's to do the
work. I've heard you say show up and I come back in a meeting, I'll say show up for yourself first,
but it's showing up to do the work and the work can mean a whole lot of things. We call it heart
work here. And that has just paid dividends for me, David. I can't tell you how important this
idea of doing the work has been for me, which for me, again, is showing up with guys that I have
four or five year relationships with, listening to their stories, turning around and offering
that back through mentorships or like mentoring other guys so I can give back. But if I had to
pick one, one of the biggest advancements in my journey was to actually do story work,
to go back into childhood, to understand where little t trauma started. What are some of those
core memories that shaped the narrative of how I believe, what I believe about myself.
And then to really tell the truth about that. I've done that in therapeutic settings,
group settings, I've done it in retreat settings.
things. You know, and a lot of the what I'll just call more
modern, you know, views of even Christian counseling, have
stunt started to happen to this narrative of story work, but
particularly bringing the youngest young parts of
ourselves, back to back to whole this idea that there are young
parts of ourselves that are stuck and I, it's been a big, a
big part of my journey. So all to be said, I mean, it's it's
showing up, it's doing the work, it's leaning into the
uncomfortableness, it's going into what I thought was a dark
cave that I might never come out of if I ever went to that place
in my having the courage to do it doing with with other men or
other like men, like minded men. And then just building off of
each one of those experiences and letting them transform
through all of it. So I know silver bullet, I wish I could
offer it. But it for me, it's just been about showing up
daily and doing and doing the work.
Yeah, yeah. And then that's huge. Because, again, like I
said, whether you're married or not married, like, it's like
doing the work is worth it. I mean, and doing that, like,
without having to say that you have to do it, like, again, like
a put on, because so many things are put on people that I think
are so inappropriate. So like, we got part of our world, like
just trying to cast off things because they just can't deal
with too much. But at the same time, it's like an order for you
to be like healthy and well and responsible and like, not just
like a good productive member of society, but like, you know, all
that you can be in God, you have to take on the responsibility or
the stewardship or do the work or like, you know, want to like,
you know, be better, be healthy. Well, so it's an oxymoron oxymoron
ish, you know, in that way. Mike, you have your hand raised.
Yeah, I just wanted to, I've done a crap load. I've been I've
done 30 years of work. So, you know, I think one of the keys is
I'm not understanding what you did. But not see, I had a really
bad propensity to be like, Oh, man, I should have known. I
should have would have, you know, like, I should have known
that I shouldn't have done that I should, you know, and I would
have should have myself and should have myself on the foot
and it, you know, and it was really condemning. Where it's
like, hey, I like Rob, I mean, I became an adult at three. You
know, I mean, I remember having to protect my mom, right. And,
okay. And so like, I took on I lost my childhood. And so, you
know, but getting back to bringing full circle, bringing
that little kid who should have been protected, who was the
protector, right, you know, and like, like the story, I love the
Rob, I love the story thing, because that and bringing Jesus
into that equation. Jesus, where were you? And just, you know,
that's funny. You know, the verse, and you will know the
truth, and the truth shall set you free. I can tell you in my
trauma journey, Jesus coming, Jesus is the truth, coming into
the traumas, actually brought freedom. And so, and, and, you
know, and actually just looking back and remembering my younger
self and like, and apologizing, hey, you know, I wish I would
have done better, you know, and like, and just owning my owning
the fact that I, I missed, you know, I think that brings
freedom, you know, too often, or like, Oh, man, I don't want to
admit that, but not admitting it keeps you bound. I mean, I, you
know, real, real masculinity owns their crap. Good, bad and
different, right. And so I just found that I just found that
even with my ex, the Lord's like, I want you to apologize
for this. And I'm like, dude, she's barbecuing, she's
barbecuing me right now. I'm not gonna apologize for
anything. Yeah. But, but when I did, I was free. You know, that
the yoke, the enemy puts the yoke of regret of all the you
know, so I just have gone back through my past. And you know,
I've owned all my stuff where I missed both to myself, and to
others. And, you know, and then the other thing is just
abiding. Because he'll take you through the process, you need
to when you need to. And when he does it, it works. You know, you
don't have to force it, you just have to ask the Holy Spirit to
lead you through it. So that's just the things I've found.
Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, because I steer away from
it's like, I just said earlier, you know, it's it's only now, in
a lot of ways that I've realized. I don't want to say
just the error of my ways, like, Oh, I did a bunch of whatever.
But I'm just like, my behavior and how it was either inappropriate, damaging, or whether
it was just completely clueless, there's also, it's like, you're talking about all the things
that you were like, yeah, I should have known better, whatever.
But sometimes you don't.
Sometimes you don't know better.
It's like, you can't apologize or repent for things.
You can, but what I'm saying is, is like, once you realize that the, what was going
on, but at the same time, there there's, you know, you live a lot of your life, not aware.
Well, there's, there's a say, there's a 12 step.
There's a lot of 12 step sayings.
I don't know them all.
And so I won't, I won't 12 step you all to death.
But one of my favorites is when you know more, you do better, right?
Yeah.
That's okay.
Like it's, I think that's an okay, an okay saying to live by.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Right.
And there's, and there's, and there's some, then there's some therapy, some releasing
when you can, when you're, I think when you're led specifically to make amends, not that
you have to be like, you know, have a diary list of everything and everybody you did wrong.
I don't know that's how it'd be impossible, but maybe sometimes you feel like you need
to do a little bit of that.
But I think where you're, you're, you're, you're really trying to like, Hey, you know
what?
There's something I realized about me or about the past or whatever that I want to like,
I want to, I want to bring reconciliation.
It's more of a reconciliation thing than it is really like a, um, I need to apologize
or I need to get forgiveness over that.
Maybe it is something like that, but I'm talking about more of a sort of like bringing a reconciliation,
a healing, an opportunity, I guess, for reconciliation when you can go back in some of those situations.
Like I feel like I have to do some of that, uh, with and for my ex wife, uh, because I'd
feel like there's something specific, especially there.
And, uh, and I just feel like it's something before the Lord.
So I'm going to do it at some point.
All right.
Got one more thing.
Since I, since I wait, since I'm going to be three, six and I feel like I wasted part
of my life, how can I undo it?
Like I can't travel back in time.
I think all of us to some degree, including myself would have that, that we could say
that statement, we've wasted portions of our life.
I think everybody in human being on the world has quote wasted part of their life.
But quite honestly, I think that is sort of some of the meaning of life.
It's not necessarily, yeah, you may feel like you wasted it because of whatever thousand
different reasons.
But at the same time, there's a sense there's a, there's a sort of a juxtaposition and irony
in the fact that that is really kind of what part of life is all about is that you go
through it.
And there are portions where you look back, like Mike saying, like, I should have known
better or whatever, or I wasn't aware or whatever.
And now you in a statement, Rob says, like, you know, when you know better, you do better
type things.
So that's part of life.
So in one way, you want to take responsibility and stewardship for it and you want to give
over the part of it that, you know, that is, is trying to be redeemed because Jesus paid
the price for your salvation and for your redemption.
And so you take your burdens off that.
But at the same time, you also don't want to like sit here and just beat yourself up
like you're a terrible person, like you have to like make recompense for all of this because
it's just not real and it's not possible.
And it's also the fact that suppose you took back all the time, all those years back and
did a restart.
Well, the problem is then you have to, well, even though I did some of that stuff outside
of that, you were building up, you were, you were constructing to make building your life
up.
That would also mean you have to rebuild your whole life again, all the way back up from
scratch.
Of course.
And I think one of the greatest things about, and I don't know whether I said this on the
prayer call on Friday, Faith Friday, I get into sort of a sort of like a, just a sort
of a encouragement moment talking about living on this side of the cross as, as in terms
of our faith development and in terms of our understanding of what Jesus did for us.
We have to remember that Jesus didn't die for us to redeem us and pay the price for
our sins and our mess ups.
He literally died.
us. That is a huge revelation, if you can sort of like connect
that. He literally died as us, he became as we were without
sin, and didn't just take the place of us. Or I mean, didn't
just die like for us like, yeah, I'll just do this for you. But
he literally with all of his emotions, all the temptations,
all of who he was as a man, as a human being, literally died as
us. And so that level of redemption and receiving that
and just a revelation and understanding of what that
means for us is huge. That doesn't mean that you cast off
all of the work and the stewardship and the response,
there's just a healthy balance of that, you know, like before
the Lord. So I don't know how to put it any other way than that.
But I don't hope that makes sense. But I think that's, I
think it's worth mentioning that rather than walking away from a
conversation like this feeling like, burdened, I would never
want anybody to walk away from a conversation like this going,
Oh, man, I feel so bad about myself, or I feel like, you
know, I've got, yeah, I've got to do the work. But I just
really, really, you know, feel guilty or feel, you know,
oppressed or whatever. Because that's not what this
conversation is about this conversation about as an
invitation to come higher and invocation and invitation. And I
think that's, I think that's everything that everybody that
commented on this call, I think that's what their heart was, of
course saying, and I love that. So we've had a really good
discussion on this tonight. So I appreciate all of your input.
Thank you so much, each one of you for sharing and telling your
story. And asking the questions. The enemy, yeah, the enemy
brings condemnation. The Lord brings things to you that the
Lord brings things.
Sorry.
So the enemy brings condemnation, like, hey, you're
bad, you're screwed up. Yeah. The Lord's like, hey, I'm
bringing this up. So you can be free. You know, a lot of times,
he's like, hey, you screwed this, you know, he's like,
there's a mistake you made. And when you rectify it, inside of
you, you're going to be free, because you've been holding on
to that for so long. I want you to let it go. So you actually
come up higher.
Yeah, we I like it when Jesus used the yeah, but phrase, like
we use Yeah, but like, everything's great. Yeah. But
and then we usually putting something bad, Jesus use the
opposite. He goes, like, you're like, well, like, I really
screwed up. I'm terrible. He goes, Yeah, but really, like,
you're better than that. Like, let me help you out. Like, let
me let me give you a let me give you a lift, you know, type
thing. So yeah, it's true. But here, let's see. Let's work on
this together. And I love that juxtaposition of that. Yeah, but
phrase kind of reminds me of that. Thomas YouTube video, King
archetype, put in the app, found the ideas incredibly
helpful. King warrior, magician lover. So you're giving us a
resource. Did you put that up already?
No, I haven't. But But I'd be happy to, in case.
I guess. I don't know if we can access it later on. But if you
guys want to grab that, I'll give you time to do that.
Oh, I was gonna put it in the app. But if you want to Oh,
yeah, no, no, no, that's fine. Go ahead and do that. Yeah. Do
that. That's cool. But I appreciate what you're saying.
And I think you're right. It's helpful to have like some kind
of something like some kind of idea structure or like, you
know, instead of just like, go be masculine. It's like, well,
yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, don't work on yourself. Don't take
care of your shit. That's like, No, no, no, no, that's not what
we meant. It's not not what we're talking about. We're not
trying to have a big heavy like departure from this. We're
having like, this is this is a healthy, good conversation. Be
lifted up be enlightened by it. So who wants to pray? Who wants
to pray us out tonight to somebody just give us a good
Mike should because you can be done. He's on the bus. He's
given us a bit. Pretty good. Okay. All right. Lord Jesus. So
yeah, I thank you that your yoke is easy and your burden is
light. Yeah. And I just pray all the things that the other lie I
just pray you break off all the lies of the enemy that are
burdening us that are making us feel inferior and like, not
enough. And Lord, we're enough because you're enough. Yeah. And
we were perfectly loved and we don't have to fear or be
anxious. And Lord, you
have amazing futures for each of these men. I just pray that you bring more hope.
And Lord, I just pray for their future brides, that they would intersect them soon. But in the
meantime, Lord, that they would become the men that you've intended them to be, that they would
walk in the fullness of you. And Lord, I just pray for supernatural dreams and visitations.
And Lord, would you break the chains? I just see chains right now. Anybody who's chained,
I just pray you break it off in Jesus' name. Just walk in freedom. There is no condemnation.
You are free. And he who in the sense that's free is free indeed. So don't go back to chaining
yourself. Walk in freedom. And he has great plans set apart, and you're set apart for a reason.
And you will find your bride in due season. I just pray this in Jesus' name. Amen.
Amen. Amen. Thank you, Mike. Bye, guys. God bless you. You are all champions.
I just felt like, Lord, I felt like he wanted me to use that word. You all are champions. So
God bless. Talk to you soon. See you later.