All right, welcome to this week's heart check-in, it is Renee Rizzo right here subbing for David
while he is out of the country.
It is his birthday, so make sure y'all like leave him happy birthday messages.
And I'm here to talk to you either about the dating levels, the divine masculine feminine
boundaries, your dating profile, whether it's for a spirit mate match or anything that you
do online.
If you're like Renee, tell me about what never to say to a girl or never to wear in a picture,
that kind of stuff too.
I'd be happy to uncover that with you.
I am going to jump in and say this because before I forget it, y'all, I'm amazed at how
many times men put topless shots in an app profile.
And I know it's not the same as a girl showing up topless, however, I feel like the equivalent
would be me showing up in a bikini and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want that.
I don't know.
Chris is joining us as well.
Okay.
So dating 101, the levels of dating.
Do any of you have any questions that you would like to ask me about this?
Has this been hard to navigate?
Does it feel clunky and weird?
Mike, you are up.
Absolutely.
How to get out the gate, right?
You know what?
I don't know.
I have negative, I got back on apps today, ironically.
But just how to get to connecting without, you know, I mean, I thought, you know, so
any tips on that and what does it look, what is a healthy pursuit or like, what does it
look like?
I have anxious, so I'm trying to not be, I'm trying to be more secure, but I do like connecting,
but I don't know what it really looks like to do healthy.
I think that's a really great question.
Hey, Paul, I'm so glad to have you here.
You guys, man, we've got like the great crowd here.
I'm so excited to see you all.
I will say this.
I'm going to tell you what I think based on everything that I've learned with Jackie,
which is healthy tempo, what is healthy courting through the, especially in level one and level
two, I cannot guarantee that every woman you come across is healthy.
So I'm going to tell you what healthy pursuit looks like and reciprocation.
If she at all is triggered by that or feeling like it's too much or not enough, that may
have more reflection to do with her health and not you doing it wrong.
So that's my umbrella statement.
I know let's, let's talk about all the different scenarios.
So the women in this community, obviously there's a lot less of y'all and there's more
of us.
And so I would say if you see a girl that you like, you're going to send her a message
in Facebook, probably because if we're all here, we all have a Facebook handle.
As you guys know, if you guys aren't Facebook friends, it goes into this bucket called message
that you don't like, I don't even see it all the time and I swear I'm looking for it.
And so the same thing that we say to the women dropping the hanky is you drop a message once
you don't drop a message three times.
You don't try to message them on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.
Like you just kind of put it out there.
Obviously if you guys all fill out your spirit mate match profile, it will definitely help
Jackie match up women for you.
Again, there's less of you and there's a lot more women.
And so chances are once you fill out that profile, you could be matched with like 20
or 30 different women and she's going to help make that kind of connection happen.
And it's really something as simple as, Hey, you know what?
You caught my eye.
I know we don't know a lot about each other.
Are you open to a 20 minute chat?
I jump right to a video chat because I don't like want to like go back and forth on this
whole texting thing.
I know some women are like all freaked out about that, but just say like, Hey, I know
texting can be clunky or are you open for a quick 15, 20 minute chat?
Now if she says no, I'd rather just start texting here.
Then you can have your boundaries.
My personal boundaries, whether it's men in this community or online, I will not text
longer than a week.
That is as long as I'm willing to give them.
And I usually end it with, those are really great.
And if they're questions, if they're asking questions pretty fast, I'll get there faster
than a week.
And I'll say, those are really great questions, but I much prefer those on camera so we can
see each other, hear tone and inflection and body language.
I feel like texting is not a great way to get to know somebody that I've never met in
person.
are you open for that? And I could tell you, you guys, I've lost dozens of matches from men not
being willing to do that. And I don't care. And I don't think you should care either. Like I'm just
a big fan. I don't even like giving out Google voice numbers because again, I've, and I'm sure
you have too. Haven't you gone on camera and you're like, oh my gosh, you look nothing like
your photos. And so a phone call is not going to show you that. I also think you learn a lot by
somebody's body language. Like, you know, even a little bit about my personality, just by seeing
the artwork that's behind me. I put a little bit of makeup on for you guys tonight. So like
you learn a little bit about somebody when they show up on camera that you don't get in a phone
call. So I think that's the simplest way to do it. And so Jackie always says it's about reciprocation.
So you want to match each other's tempo. If she messages you back, great. Then you kind of keep
the conversation going. If you feel like she's just kind of not really doing anything or she's
starting to fall off, then it's okay to just move on. Jackie would say, and I would say this is true
in level one slash level two. So level one is you're just kind of tossing it out there. You're
talking to people online or in a text message. That's just level one. That's me and Mike running
into each other at the grocery store. It's not until we have a one-on-one phone call or video
chat that it's actually even considered a level two discovery session. Like you've got to have
some alone time. A text conversation is not it. So it's either got to be in person or on camera
for it to feel like it's a level two more kind of discovery dating conversation.
We have trained the girls in our program that they're supposed to let you know if they want to
see you again. Hey, I had a really great time, Josh. I'd love to get to know you better. That's the
language. I'd love to continue to get to know you. That's it. That's all we're promising each other.
And so Jackie always says it's a yes until it's a no. So the same applies for you guys too. It's
like it's a yes until it's a no and it's a yes until no. Here's what it doesn't mean. It doesn't
mean if you are both miserable and you're like there's no way in heck I'm ever going to want
to talk to this person or it's like watching paint dry, then no, we don't want you to go out
on another date with them. We don't want you to book another phone call. Like it's a yes until
it's a no is I see enough things about you I like. I'm not sure about a few other things,
but there's enough things going for this that I'd like to get to know you better.
That's it. It's a yes until it's a no. I think some women and some men have been like, oh my gosh,
but Jackie said it's like, no, if you're miserable, nobody wants you to keep talking
to somebody because then that's what's going to be that comes out. And so I think in the thing
that we need to not do, and she's talking to the women about this too. We need to not use God as
our backup when we really just aren't interested again. So like the whole, like, well, I really,
I prayed about it and I really feel like the Lord told me no, no, really? Did he really,
did he, or do you just want it to be no, like, it's okay if the no is just you, like, you know?
And so, cause I mean, cause I just think God wants us to enjoy getting to know people. And I just,
I think that sometimes that God will put out a warning. Now I will say this,
if the Holy spirit presses on your heart, danger run, then I'd heed that I have ignored that heed
run danger. And it has bitten me in the butt every time. So if the Holy spirit is telling you
for whatever reason to walk away, then you can do that. But you don't need to tell that person
that you don't need to be like, all right, Emily, the Lord told me, no, no, just say, you know what,
Emily, it was so great getting to know you. I just don't see us going any further, but it was really
lovely. Get to know you. I wish you the best. So that's what I would say, Mike, drop the hanky with
a message, with a comment and see if it gets picked up. People are weird on line in this
community and online. Sometimes they'll just delete a conversation with you. Sometimes they'll
tell you they're not interested. Sometimes they'll wait a week. There are a hundred reasons why
people message you back and don't message you back. What I will say early on in that dating
discovery season, it's not our job to school them if they're behaving inappropriately.
Like you guys, I just got a message from this guy. Now I probably should have known
by the fact that he said he missed cuddling in his bio. Usually when a guy mentions,
they miss the cuddling, but I was bored. So like, let me see where this goes. He was local. He was
cute. I was like, I'll see where it goes. And then he was like all up in my grill, asking me
questions about how long I've been dating online, how it's successful. It's.
But I'm like, seriously.
I said, you told me you read my whole bio
and that's all you care about
is how much I've talked to other people?
And then I said, tell me something else about you.
And then he said something about passionate something.
And I'm like, blocked.
Like old me used to feel like it was my job
as a sister in Christ to let him know the error of his ways.
And so that he would not do this to other godly women.
But y'all, they know.
So when you're talking to women,
that if she's dressed too provocative,
and that's my thing,
like Jackie really kind of went hard on the women.
I think, I don't know if you listened
to Love Seats from last week.
Like when women keep saying,
I keep finding men that just wanna have sex with me.
Now I find that every now and then,
but that is not 95% of what I get from men.
So, but I would say if what you're getting from women
is the same exact issue over and over again,
you really need to look at how you're presenting yourself.
Is it your photos?
Is it your bio?
If you keep attracting the same kind of woman,
then you're putting out something that's reeling that in.
When the heart is an issue, people behave strange.
For sure, Chris, man, I tell you what.
I've just learned to have a lot of grace.
I have changed my dating tactic 100%
since joining this program.
I used to wanna know the reason
why anyone dropped off the earth.
Like if they seemed completely all into me,
then nothing.
I would be offended.
I would wanna have closure.
I would wanna, now I can't even keep up.
Like when I'm like, oh, I guess he's gone.
I guess he's gone.
I wonder what I said, but you know what?
If he's my guy, he's not gonna get offended.
He might think I'm funny or whatever.
Did that even remotely answer your question, Mike?
I hope it did.
I rambled on too long.
You're muted.
No, it was super good.
Cause I'm like, I am clue.
I mean, I was married for 20 years,
but I mean, it's like my first girlfriend, right?
So it's like getting into this whole freaking realm.
And then can I ask a whole nother like practical question?
So I was pursuing somebody, then we became friends,
but then I asked for feedback, right?
And then we discussed, huh?
You asked for feedback from her?
Yeah, yeah, cause I adore her.
She's amazing, right?
And so we were talking and then her,
so there's a no, don't try harder, right?
I get that, I understand that.
But when we talked about it,
like what her presupposition was where her deal breaker
wasn't actually a deal breaker.
So then we were chatting and it was like,
so I don't know, I'm just kind of in this weird paradigm.
I'm like, so, but what is-
Here's what I can tell you,
women are not that different than men.
You know, you guys are, most of you are too young,
but back in the Sex and the City day,
when Berger was talking to Carrie and all the friends,
he always said, he's just not that into you.
That was his phrase, he's just not that into you.
If someone's into you, you're not gonna be confused
and they're gonna want, they're gonna be moving towards you.
So I think this applies for both men and women.
They might like you, just not enough.
And so I think Jackie has used the phrase
that men will cut off their arm and use it as an oar
to swim upstream, to paddle upstream,
to get to the woman he likes.
So I think this is true for women.
If they like you, they like you, you know it.
They will affirm you, they will make contact with you,
they will find reasons to talk to you again
if they're in front of you,
they will find reasons to touch you.
Like if you find that women,
and I don't mean sexually touch,
but like grab your hand or grab your arm,
women are as obvious as men are
and they really will pursue you.
So if she's giving you reasons why it can't go further,
but they don't seem like real deal breakers,
but she's kind of hemming and hawing,
chances are she's not completely disclosing to you
why she's hesitant, possibly because she doesn't know,
possibly because she doesn't want her to hurt your feelings
or maybe she's got her own crap that she hasn't figured out
and she's blocking it herself,
but it's not your job to convince her to like you
or convince her that y'all should be together.
You know what I'm saying, you guys?
Like, does that make sense?
Yeah, so I wish,
because so this is like a real life situation
at the moment, right?
And we've been chatting like every once,
almost every day for a while.
Is she reaching out to you
or are you doing all the reaching out?
Both, it's been back and forth.
Okay, how long has it been going on?
Well, it's off and on for about three months.
Okay.
And then I talked to Jackie about it,
but it's just, so I'm actually going,
so,
You know, I didn't expect to talk about all this today,
but so I'm looking at like, we have a dating cadence,
but we're friends and I want to...
All right, when you say you have a dating cadence,
are you guys seeing each other in real life?
Or are you only texting and calling?
She lives in a different country,
so that's in real life would be...
Do you guys have actual dates?
Were you like...
We have not done that yet.
No, we just chat on chat or we've chatted on the phone,
but I'm trying to draw boundaries.
You know, like this is a whole new thing for me, right?
It's like, okay, if we're not dating and we're friends,
then we need to cut this back to like once a week or so.
100%.
Right, and so is that fair?
See, I've never done this.
100%, none of you guys should be giving somebody
attention every single day
unless you are pursuing a dating relationship.
You are both just sucking energy
that could be going to somebody else.
That is not fair to you.
If she's talking to you every single day,
but she's not saying that you're dating
and doesn't want to date you.
It is a very complicated situation, but yeah.
But anyways, so no, like I just...
No, but so that sounds fine though, right?
Because that's something I've been looking at
the last couple of days
about just having that conversation.
And when it's like, hey, you know,
I really think you're great
and I think we're a good match,
but we're on a dating cadence.
It's like we're dating
and I need to get it back to friendship level.
If you ever want to actually date and go that direction,
I would love to.
Does that sound fair?
Does that sound all right?
Absolutely, 100%.
Cool, thank you.
You bet.
All right, the rest of you.
Paul, welcome back.
I think you left and I'm glad you're back.
Chris, good to see you.
All right, how can I help you guys?
So I'm here to discuss any topic
you guys want to talk about.
The dating levels, divine, feminine, masculine.
How does it, what does it mean to be masculine?
We can talk about boundaries.
We can talk about,
have the rest of you guys filled out your profile
for spirit mate match?
I have Chris, Carlos, Paul.
Have you guys filled your profiles out yet?
No, I'm actually dating somebody.
So I'm not gonna do that right now.
Okie dokie.
Are you in a good place?
I have a question about it.
All right, then there you go.
All right.
We might be in a better place than I feel right now.
I don't know, but love languages.
So it's actually been real recent
that I realized that,
and I told her different, I did.
And so this, I'm giving her a lot of grace
because I did not think,
words of affirmation used to be really high for me,
but I felt like I went through a lot of inner healing
and things and felt like God downloaded so much into me
that it didn't feel like it was as important.
But now in this relationship,
it feels like it's coming back up.
Like I want her to affirm me
and that's her biggest weakness.
She says, that's my hardest one.
Not a member of the-
What's her love language?
Personal time and physical touch are her.
And a few months ago, she spoke up.
She said, hey, I'd like to see you more than once a week.
That's important for me to feel like we're local.
She's 30 minutes away and stuff.
So we're able to do that.
And it was just like pulling me out of my,
during the work week, it wasn't easy.
It wasn't my cadence to normally go during the work week,
but I made that adjustment
and I've been happy that I made that adjustment.
And I kind of referenced that not in a shameful way,
but like-
But like, hey, I'm willing to do this for you.
You might need to be doing this.
I have done it for her.
And I, so I'm just, yeah, I'm just wondering like-
Is she somebody in our community or she's-
No, she's not.
I've mentioned the community.
I've mentioned the heart work.
That's another thing.
I'm like, you know, I don't want to-
How healthy does she seem to be?
You know, she really kind of does push her emotions down.
I'm actually, ironically, the more emotionally expressive
and I think emotionally healthier
because I've had to do a lot of fricking work over years,
you know, but because of that, I have a long way to go.
And then sometimes I do not know what the heck I'm feeling,
but that's the thing is I can feel that.
It's like, I don't want to, but I also-
Are you guys exclusive?
Oh yeah.
Yeah, we've been exclusive.
We've been dating for seven months.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Okay, so you've been dating for seven months
and you see each other like twice a week-ish?
At least.
We've traveled together several times over the summer.
in her parents many times.
How much does she know that this is important to you?
Well, I made it clear again in the context of,
I don't know if you ever heard of FANOS,
but it's a way of checking in your feelings,
your affirmations, your needs, what you can own.
And so on the affirmation, we started that,
I sent her something, I'd like to start doing this,
sent that to her, and then on, what's today?
Monday, so on Saturday, I went over and that was,
I told her earlier in the week, or last week,
and then I said, that's my need.
I really need more affirmation.
And so it was only the second time
that it's come up though, that's the thing.
It's a new-
Well, when she says that it's hard for her,
does she also say, but I'm gonna work on that with you?
So the first time when I brought it up,
she said, she did say something to that effect.
And so I, yeah, she doesn't say that often.
I don't know.
And I think that's a fair thing for you to say like,
hey, I've brought this up a couple of times.
I know it doesn't come natural for you,
but I need to know that that's something
you're actually willing to work on for me.
Right.
Because the whole point,
it's not even about love languages,
it's about asking for what you need
and your partner meeting you halfway
with those needs to be met.
And so if you had the courage to ask for what you need,
like she asked for what she needed and you gave it to her.
And just say like, look,
I need to know that if I ask for what I need,
you're gonna at least try.
And you're not gonna just tell me that it's your weakness.
You're just gonna say, hey, it doesn't come natural for me,
but I am gonna make an effort
because I know this is important to you.
Because this time, that's what's important to you.
There's gonna be something else in the future
that's gonna be important.
Do you feel like,
since you guys have been together for seven months,
do you feel like you are in the same place of like,
do both like each other at the same level?
Do you like her more than she likes you or vice versa?
I think she likes me a little bit more than where I'm at.
Interesting.
She's like, I may or may not,
about a few weeks ago, I've asked her a question
and probably was a mistake.
Hey, are you okay with lab grown diamonds
as opposed to like the De Beers crap,
which I'm kind of ethically opposed to.
And then after I didn't take her diamond shopping
and then she saw that as like a pulling back.
So I think she would have said yes,
even a few weeks ago, if I was to propose.
And now I'm just not in that place.
And so I just, I really want to discover more.
And like I said, maybe that was a mistake.
It felt natural.
We were spending a lot of time over the summer.
I'm a teacher, so I had a couple of months off
and we were like, let's go here, let's go there.
Let's, you know.
Do y'all share the same faith?
Yeah, we're both followers of Christ, for sure.
Do you feel like you guys are both really compatible
in your value system and things that you enjoy doing?
Yes.
Okay.
So is your only hesitation her words of affirmation?
Yeah, I think that's it.
I think we-
I'm wondering though, Paul,
because if that was something that's not an issue for you,
here's what I'm finding interesting.
You're saying that she might be more ready to say yes
than you are.
You spent so much time together
and now all of a sudden you're looking for more words.
So I'm kind of wondering, what is she not giving you
that is making you need that verbal affirmation?
Right.
Yeah.
And I have a, I've had a lot of fear
at different times in the relationship.
I show up more avoidant, you know what I mean?
And I've been checking in with friends
and people who know how to have a good marriage.
Often, like I have, you know, like a board of advisors
because I could easily break off
and feel like trying to feel safe.
And so I'm, that's why I'm really getting,
trying to get some guidance in this
because I don't trust my, you know, my-
Because something else is triggering you to need that more.
Yeah.
Because it's something that you didn't think you need.
She probably likes you more than you like her.
So it's kind of like, or do you really need it?
And you're trying to find a reason to push her away.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't, yeah, it's a good question because-
So let me ask you this.
You guys talk every single day?
Maybe both.
No, and that's a thing.
I mean, we touch base, you know,
sometimes on one way or another.
whether it's texting during the day,
a little bit here and there.
It, to me, it feels like,
I think we had a couple moments of not feeling as close.
And I think that's when it was like, whoa,
I almost like,
cause I think I show up with some anxiousness too.
Like I want to feel close to this person all the time.
And I think it's kind of freaked me out that like,
anyway, I'm just kind of trying to find my grip,
my grip and sort of speak again, you know.
If you don't mind me asking, and you don't have to answer,
how are you guys managing your physical intimacy?
Especially since you've gone away.
Cause sometimes you bring that in.
That's a good question.
We probably, there was a time in June
when we crossed the boundary with that
because we were traveling together.
And then that's actually interesting you ask that
because then we kind of stayed in that mode
and then around the time that we,
I started feeling the distance was when I pulled us back.
I said, nope, no more of that.
And she felt that,
I think she may have taken that a little bit
as a rejection.
I don't know.
She's like, that's a bummer.
Like we can never do that at all until we're married.
And it was not full on sex, but whatever you can get done.
But like, anyway, yeah.
Why do you ask that?
Is there something?
Well, because there's usually a correlation.
When you do that and you kind of have to pull back there,
it can create,
because physical intimacy creates a level of intimacy
and you pull that back,
you're gonna want to replace it
with another form of intimacy.
And so what it sounds like is you pulled back
on the physical intimacy.
And so you're leaning in harder
and needing more verbal intimacy from her.
But the problem is for her,
because not doing that before marriage isn't a goal of hers,
she's lost the physical intimacy.
So now she's pulled back
on maybe some of the verbal intimacy.
It's like, and you need it more.
And so it's like, you kind of,
so I'm just wondering how health,
do you feel like you guys have a healthy enough relationship
to have this very open conversation about this?
Like, hey, you know what?
I kind of noticed ever since we did this
that maybe you pulled back a little bit.
Maybe I'm needing a little bit more verbal affirmation.
Like, do we want to do the same thing
for the next six months?
Like, do we have the same goals and values
as far as intimacy and marriage and God?
And I find it interesting.
See, I love that it's in reverse,
that she's like, hey, we can't do that
because the guy that I was dating told me he was,
we broke up in May,
but we were a little too physical at the front end,
definitely not sex.
But I could just tell, he's like,
and I was like, well, I said, this is too much for me.
Kind of like you, like, this is too much.
Like, we can't do this.
Like, I'm like, I don't want to build Clinton
my way through this.
Like, when I said no sex,
it didn't mean everything except this, that one thing.
Like, it meant all of this.
And so me pulling back really created this weird space
where he was constantly asking me
how I felt about him and what I was thinking.
And I'm like, oh my God,
I'm spending all my spare time with you
and I'm giving you as much words of affirmation,
but I couldn't give him enough.
Like, it was just never enough.
And after we broke up and I kind of realized
how clearly the dude wanted sex
and he was just not honest about it.
If he just said to me, Renee, I just miss sex
and I want sex and we're not having it.
Like, then it would have made way more sense to me,
but he just wouldn't tell me that.
And so I'm just wondering
if that's just playing a role in it
and how healthy your relationship is
will be determined if you can have this conversation.
And just be like, hey, you know,
would you be willing to kind of talk this out with me?
And like, I don't know that I have the answers.
I don't even know what I'm completely thinking,
but like, I've been kind of mulling on it.
And obviously if, you know, we have a long-term future,
we're gonna have these seasons
where we're both confused by each other
and I'm pulling back in one way
and you're pulling back in the other way.
And the health of our relationship
would be us being able to talk about it.
So can we just talk about it?
Like, even though we don't really know,
like, and I don't need to have a firm answer
or a decision at the end of it.
I just want to unpack this with you.
Like.
Yeah, we talk pretty, we talk about all kinds of things.
We've talked about, you know,
a lot of detailed and intimate stuff,
or, you know, we, a lot of-
times it was generated by a book that we were going through, which some people could consider
like a premarital kind of book to talk about topics. But, uh, but there's also times where
it feels like, like we're talking and we're both being really honest and we're not really,
I don't know what's there's something missing. Like, I just feel like she's not understanding
me and maybe I'm not getting her. She's not giving me enough to know. I want more of what's
inside of her and that's hard for her. So, and I'm trying to have grace on that. Cause I've
been working on, you know, go around for a while. I felt like I pulled her into the deep end, like
give me your emotions, woman. You know what I mean? And I was like, okay, calm down. That's,
that's too much. That would be hard for me though, Paul. I'm definitely, uh, I swim in the deep end
of the swimming pool. So I would have, I love meaningful conversation. That's part of my
Enneagram as part of who I am. Just chilling and just like, we're just walking and I'm not really,
you know, I have to remind myself that, you know, everything's okay. I don't need to have a
really good number. Are you on the Enneagram? I'm a five wing six. Oh, okay. That's fascinating.
Well, fives gather a lot of data. Fives are the investigator. They like to gather a lot of data.
What does she, do you know what she is? You know, she sent me her results and it was so
varied. Um, I think she's more of like a, uh, a one, but then she has a little bit of two. I was
really hoping she was more too. Cause that's, that's, those are the ones. I'm a full on two.
I promise you she cannot verbalize what she's feeling. She is not a, she not even remotely
a two. She's all in her head. That's why I was hoping she was more two cause that's, they work.
She's not in the heart triad. The heart triad is two, three, four. Um, she's in the eight.
Yeah. She's like, she's more, she's more eight and one. I think it was more than that. And that's,
that's good for me, but I also need, need that. And we need to be able to check in with the,
cause I'm head. I'm an ENFP Mike. So I knew we'd be good friends, but you're a seven,
seven's like that fun. Oh, Josh, look at that. You're a nine INTJ. That's totally a Jackie.
That's so funny. Jackie. I mean, I, David, David is a full on eye and he's so a nine.
I think that's INTP if I remember. Yeah. It's well,
I'm glad you, I mean, I'm glad I thank you for sharing all that. I feel like this is
good for other people to hear this too. When they're in replay, I think these, I mean,
have you, how does your friends and family, what do they think of you guys?
Um, my family likes her a lot. Parents, my sister, um,
they're her family. Um, they, they like me a lot. Um, you know, that's sometimes I have to guess.
I mean, you know, it's like, uh, from her, but she does, she did say that they liked me a lot and,
and, and no one's, no one's throwing up flags telling you guys to not be in the, in this,
none of that. That's good. So can you, um, let me ask you this. Do you look forward to seeing her?
I do. I do. I do look forward to seeing her, especially after we started seeing each other
more often than I'd be like, well, I want, I want, you know, I didn't like the days that we
weren't together. I think, you know, there's times I get in my head, you know, where I'm like,
you know, I, are we going to have the connection next time we see each other?
But I think if I honest with where my heart is at, yeah, I look forward to seeing her. So.
Yeah, that was a good question. What are you afraid of?
You know, uh, yeah. Are you divorced or are you never married?
Never married. Neither one of us. Well, as a, as a fellow never married, I get it. The older we get,
it's like, we just get afraid of every damn thing. Yeah. Cause we know life, we know that
life can suck. We know things can, you know, that it's not always, you know, it's that's why
they, the research says get married when you're twenties, you know what I mean? Cause then,
you know, then you're too stupid to know. You're just too dumb.
I honestly, I'm, I think I'm afraid of like being a hundred percent committed in a marriage and
being lonely and being really like, we don't have that glue and being like in a bad marriage,
in a bad relationship, not feeling connected, uh, where I don't like being single, but
you know, like not having, you know what I mean? But there are benefits of being single,
you know, too. So I think it's. Have you thought about taking the Simbas class with her?
I asked Jackie about it and I really, I want to, um, it just the timing when the last one started
was we were still going through that, that book that I was talking about, the eight dates with
the Gottman book. So, um, yeah.
a good one. I will say this, I would highly recommend it. I'm 0 for 2 with Simbis. Maybe
that makes me 2 for 2. Simbis is a really great way for you to see if you have staying power.
And when I took it, I took it once not with Jackie, I took it in person and there was
four, six of us couples and half of us were not engaged yet. Interestingly enough,
the two of us that were not engaged ended up breaking up by the end.
And then I took it with Jackie in my first year and there was 20 couples, I swear,
maybe it's 20 people, might've been 20 people. And I don't think only one couple was even engaged.
So most of us taking it weren't engaged yet. And I'm a big fan. My pastor's a big fan. He's like,
once you're engaged, the horse has left the barn. It's very hard to break up with somebody
once you've announced to the world that you're engaged. So I think Simbis is, I think you guys
have done enough time under your belt that you're probably needing to do a class like this to really
start to ask yourselves the hard questions about how do you view money? How do you view family?
How do you view roles in the house? What is the top three things that you need? And here's the
thing, Paul, whoever you marry, she's not gonna be able to fill all your needs. You have to just
decide, does she fill your top three needs? She ain't gonna fill all of them. But say your top
need was like, I need to be held at night. I just need to be held and touched. And if I was
marrying a guy that would never touch me or never have a deep conversation, I don't care how nice he
was, it just wouldn't work for me. Like I couldn't, I wouldn't, I would die. I would wither and die.
And so for you, when you think about what you're not getting from her, something that's causing
this, I need more from her. I mean, I think maybe you need to lean in with Holy Spirit and figure
out first what that's about. I think it'd be completely appropriate for you guys to have that
conversation about when you felt like, hey, when I pulled back physically, I don't know, were you,
did you feel like I was rejecting you? Because if anything, I was trying to guard your heart.
Like I was trying to honor you, not reject you. And so I think in the meantime, I think you guys
can have that conversation. I don't know how often Jackie does Symbus. I know that you can go online
and you can find facilitators in your home state. I'm a fan of doing some of that. I mean, I think
it's great if you can get into Jackie's program, but you know, sometimes a local church near you
is also running that class and you would do it in person with other couples. I would definitely say,
do something like that before you decide to get engaged or to break up. Like, I feel like for you
guys, it would be a real good aha moment. Does Symbus have, I've heard of some kind of a test.
I couldn't tell you where they analyze your results. Yeah. So that's what it is.
Both take an assessment before the class even starts separately. There's like a hundred questions.
I don't know. It feels like a hundred. It may not be a hundred. And it basically does almost like your
personality profile and it does your family history. And so like one week. And so every week
you unpack as a group, a section of the report. So it's going to see your personality compatibility,
your compatibility on finances, your compatibility on household chores and delineation of duties,
your compatibility on sex, your compatibility on your faith and your family. So every single week
you're, there's, you're looking at your results versus their results and you get homework questions.
It was fun because I got to do the finance one. Jackie had me come in last, the last time for
Symbus and I got to teach on the finance night. And it was fascinating to me how many people were
talking about getting married and they had not yet had any conversation about how to do finances
and what a budget looks like and who's going to manage the account. And we all know like money's a
funny topic. And one of the reasons why I pushed to do the Symbus class was I felt like the person
I was dating was not being fully transparent on his financial situation. And lo and behold,
I learned that I was not wrong in the Symbus class. And I was like, you can't, you can't lie
your way out of it. It's like, it's one of those kinds of classes. Like you can't, you can't BS it.
So if you have any credit score, I mean, that's the thing, like lie about that. You can't. Yeah.
I mean, do you guys, do you guys want children? Do you not want children? Do you have
ministry goals that are similar? You know, the honor, the funny thing is everything you just.
mentioned like we've gone through every single one of those subjects that's what those eight dates
okay uh and so everything was rolling until the sex date that's when we're like a little bit
different and how i you know because they ask straight up questions how often do you anticipate
having sex every week right so then but then that brought some stuff up but then i feel like
like that was an example of we worked on that because i'm like i learned that i'm not gonna
be having sex every single day you know whenever i want it kind of a thing that's so funny when i
was in my 20s and i was like talking to all my married friends somebody asked me that like wait
you guys don't have sex every day you get married and you don't have sex every day they just laughed
at me i was like but anyway i so i so i feel like we were you know even coming back together on that
when i said all right i've done the work i realize it's just we're both both both of us
feeling okay every day at the same time it's not always gonna happen i get it i'll be fine with
that i just want to stay connected have you guys had a fight yet is this helping the rest of you
guys josh and chris is this helping you guys i don't want you to feel like yeah we're dominating
this i'm gonna ask my i'm gonna ask paul one more question and then chris and josh i want you guys
to be able to ask some questions too but hopefully this is helping everybody what was my question
shit have we had a fight but are these guys you know have you had a fight yet yes i mean well
well i don't know we've had disagreements and it's been that's why that's what's been
happening last couple weeks ever since the sex thing so tell me how do you guys do you guys
fight fair yeah we're both neither one of us are external processors we're we're more like
distance you know we create distance um or you know like self-protective we're both similar in
that way um i don't know if that so i think yes because i don't think we trigger each other a lot
except right the trigger i mean because if you told me you didn't have any disagreements in
seven months i would say you're not going deep enough because everyone's gonna have disagreements
um and that was one of the biggest reasons why i chose to break up with rick is he did not fight
fair um the end of the fight we would come to a really great place but i felt destroyed and
annihilated during the fight and i thought i can't do that and so i remember saying that like
we're not fighting fair and like so then what would happen is i didn't like the way i was fighting like
because when you feel annihilated you just start fighting back and so do you guys do you guys feel
like you show respect when you're disagreeing yes yeah we do did he like use your vulnerability
against you is that was that what he would do yeah i'm very careful about that because i really i
know how hard it is for her i don't want to screw that up so i'm really like if i asked something
that she was open and vulnerable about previously i really try to be delicate with it because i
that's important i know how difficult it is i didn't grow up in a vulnerable share your feelings
household that's why i had to do all the work on you know and and so i'm really trying to be careful
i i hope i hope she'd say the same answer you know if she was here well you can ask her yeah
you can i mean you can ask her i mean so um when you guys have a disagreement do you like go to
your corners and take a day off and think about it see i'm a verbal processor so that probably
gets me in trouble like i i think out loud and uh so that does get me in trouble um well you know
paul i mean it sounds like the only way you'll really know is if you stop talking to her for
two weeks would you miss her like i think what is the phrase it's not just finding out if you can
you know live with somebody can you live without them do you feel like you can live without her
yes mike do you want i mean mike feel free to jump in here so so paul one of the things that
gottman say and like you know because i've done this is kind of my wheelhouse in a way so um
how is she bidding for connection like how does she like she needs she's she's coming to you and
she has like she has a need for connection right and like so and you have and you're saying hey i
need affirmation this is this is my need for connection right so the number one indicator
of a couple is going to work is how they manage their needs for connection because a lot of people
don't realize it's even a it's called a bid for connection some people don't even realize that
they're trying to connect to me i just think they're annoying i mean like and they're and it's
off so i think um just something something to think about is
She's expressing bids for connection and you are as well.
And if you guys can get that to where you guys can connect,
I think that would be huge.
Cause it sounds like you guys are kind of missing
on the connection part.
And that was just my two cents.
That's good.
So maybe ask her how, what are the things,
when does she feel most connected to me?
And then what precedes that kind of a thing?
So she might need to help her find out
or maybe she'd know right away.
Yeah, I feel more.
I know quality time's part of it,
but I'd like to hear her answer on that.
Is that true, Chris?
It takes two months to find out if you miss somebody.
Is that true for guys?
You wouldn't find out in like two weeks?
For avoidance, yeah.
Oh, okay.
You might feel relief.
So an avoidant might feel relief at first.
Right, yeah.
So you don't, so you're not gonna feel it, Paul.
Yeah.
You're not gonna feel it.
And so it's difficult to like,
yeah.
So as unlike a,
yeah.
An anxious will feel it even when there's nothing.
Yeah, that's, my mind went blank.
I didn't get enough sleep last night.
Unlike an anxious attachment person,
you're not gonna feel it for a while.
So I think, I mean.
Anxious attachment people,
we feel it before you even leave the room.
Yeah, Renee, you probably feel like,
you probably can articulate it more.
It's chemical, right?
Like it's like biological chemical
and your emotions reacclimate and then you feel it.
I mean, I.
However, I will say like after this last relationship,
that's how I know it wasn't good
because I had no anxious attachment issues.
I literally just felt relieved and safe.
Like after months of not feeling safe,
I finally just felt safe again.
So, and I'm like, and I'm not a typical avoidant.
So, but yeah, it is chemical.
Like I can literally feel the hair
on the back of my neck going up
if I feel an avoidant, like starting to creep away.
Like, you can feel it.
Oh my gosh.
Well, this was good.
Chris, how can we help you tonight?
Can I ask one?
Paul, are you guys,
are you doing community together?
Like other than family?
We don't go to church together.
We, we have, she has her best friend
that we've gone on a couple of dates with.
I've met a couple, several of her friends.
She had a pool party once.
I try to, yeah.
So that's, I think that's a yes, you know?
And really honestly, not as,
maybe not as much as I'd like.
And I think I really, I do miss her
and I saw her two days ago.
So I think that's a good sign.
You know what I mean?
So, you know, I don't even think I need to wait two months.
I just think we need to,
I like a lot of these questions.
You guys have really helped me.
You think about some things, you know?
Good.
Could you do church together?
Is that like, would that,
I mean, that's less commitment than engagement.
Like, is that something you guys could do?
Like decide where you're gonna be?
Like seven months in,
I'm surprised you're not doing church together.
What about, what'd you say, Renee?
Seven months in,
I'm surprised you're not doing church together.
So yeah, actually.
And one of the other things I remembered
is I just asked her on Saturday
because we have fall life groups at my church.
And one of them is like a,
we're seriously dating people.
And I asked her about it.
Unfortunately, she already has a Tuesday night commitment,
but I was glad that I asked her.
I think she was glad that I asked her
because she likes it when I think ahead,
like things like that and plan, try to initiate things.
That's one thing she liked more initiation from me,
like, you know, planning things ahead.
But anyway, I've expressed that.
I'd like that.
She volunteers at a special needs room at her church
and she really loves that.
So it's like, I really want that
because spiritual connection is important for me.
And I have a lot of history with God.
And I just, and she's about five years into her faith,
but I don't have any reasons to doubt that she's serious.
And so, and I'd love to just connect more on that.
But yeah, so it was hard to push her
when she, you know, it's hard.
She's dealing with the grief of possibly, you know,
needing to leave that if she comes to my church
and that, and we kind of already did
with the times we've shared a little bit
about maybe having a future together.
We have agreed that it would be my church
because of just the location and logistics.
And, you know, if we got married,
she would live at my house at least, you know,
until we found a place together kind of a thing.
We kind of talked a little bit about those details.
So yeah, I don't know.
So it's hard for me to really push,
but I guess I can just share my heart and say,
hey, I really.
One out like we go to the house of prayer. We went to say well
You can do so do like a midweek service together or something. That's not on a Sunday morning
There's a lot of there's a lot of ways for you guys to do spiritual life together
Community to Chris's point in community not like you guys doing a private Bible study together, but you can do Christian community together
And if that life group didn't work find another life group that's on a different night
Yeah
Or you could even I mean just tell your church that hey, I'll be back unless you're a pastor
You could just tell your church like hey, I'll be back. You know, like
I'm gonna like love her where she is right now. Yeah at some point. She won't have as hard of a time giving it up
Yeah
Like that
Really
Having really serious conversations, so it's time for you to be doing all this stuff
Yeah, I like the simplest idea
Yeah, I'm gonna have to watch the replay and go back and hear all your ideas. I do wasn't taking notes
You know, I mean, we're just all brilliant here. We've got it all figured out even though we're all still
Together
We got we got one at least one whole person between all of us
I know Paul's in California Mike your California to write
Chris were you
Oh
Ohio
So Paul, I just want to honor my question. Um, so I Renee I'm really you know, I
You know just God bless you like I'm sorry you went through that that sounds really tough
And I guess maybe more than difficult because maybe it wasn't even difficult because it wasn't what you wanted
But you know, it's discouraging. Um, I
and the other guys know this and definitely Mike and Josh know this but um, I
Over two years ago
I felt God really prompt me to ask someone out and
I did and we kind of like we went on a date
And she wasn't interested in anything more than that at that point
so I backed off like way far and
And then, you know, I like kind of was open to some other things and then I mean it was a God thing
Like I just like brought us back together
but before it just got confusing because like I
Felt he was I felt somewhere along the line. I felt God told me no and
So anyway, basically I just Jackie I think Jackie tends to think it's like just like anxiety and
intrusive thoughts
But we all we did have a lot of she's a solid solid believer a spiritual daughter
But are you guys together not and now or not? You're not
No, but anyway, so so we broke that off. I broke up and it was
Horrific, like I couldn't sleep for several weeks
And we only dated for a couple months. Okay, but um, you know a while later I
Got to know a girl in Florida who
Basically I there's nothing in her character that I ever had any issue with
Except for the fact she was a little pushy and demanding but aside from that
Absolutely amazing
Pushy and demanding but totally amazing
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, it's
anyway, so so I like
But basically after several months after a few months and I the interesting thing is and this this has come up twice in this
conversation so I don't want to make too big of a deal of it, but
We got to know each other in an online class. We talked a little bit
She kept reaching out, you know, I did reach out a couple times just as a friend
then it basically became she was like the exclusive one reaching out and
We we talked about pursuing like getting to know each other meeting in person and
You know, I I had some strange things that were going on in my heart and I finally straight-up told her I said
I I don't want to hurt you. I don't feel peace about this
I don't think I'm I don't think I'm able to say yes to anyone. I don't even know you
I've never met you in person. I'm saying I don't think I am able to say yes right now
So like, and, but she kind of pushed me and amazing, gorgeous girl.
So basically like for the next couple of few months, I was working a full time, rather
demanding job, remodeling a house while I'm renting another house and flying down to Florida
for like long weekends and stuff like that, which was, I look back now, it wasn't God
or Matthew, it must've been grace, but I look back now and it's like, that was stupid.
But basically I just like, my heart just like, wouldn't move forward.
Yeah.
Do you like have any, like, is that just like, okay?
Cause like, I'll just be honest.
It is okay.
You know what?
It is okay.
I mean this girl, this girl is absolutely gorgeous.
Like it's not that, it's just like something about the personality, just like.
Are you guys still, are you guys still talking or on the fence or you stopped?
Yeah, no, it's.
You know what?
And maybe Jackie would have a different answer, but I'm just a firm believer that if, if it's
our person, we are mostly going to feel peace.
I get that anxiety is going to come.
I get that we're going to have our triggers.
I get all that stuff.
But the base feeling we should feel is peace with that person.
We should want to talk to them again.
We should want to be with them.
We should want like, that's the whole, it's a yes until it's a no.
Like what we're all hearing with Paul is there's, there's enough want there.
There's enough peace in the relationship.
Like he's kind of struggling in some areas, but he very much enjoys this person and has
made a lot of investment.
And I feel like if there's somebody that we're pursuing or is pursuing us and there's
just so much unrest, like God is not the God of confusion.
And so if you have prayed about it, if you, I mean, just because she's hot, does it mean
she's your person?
Like I mean, you know, right?
Like I just, I just meant like, it's not like I'm being like superficial, like there's some
kind of emotional thing here.
I feel you.
So are you worried that you, like you didn't have a good enough reason to end it until
you feel bad about that?
Um, you felt like, are you worried that you didn't?
I'm like, did I just, did I just shoot myself in the foot?
Do you miss her?
Or do you miss somebody?
Not like I miss the other person.
Was the other person a healthy relationship?
It was very early.
It wasn't unhealthy.
I only say that because sometimes when we miss a person, that's not a good thing.
Like sometimes we miss the high, the addiction, right?
That's what I'm trying to understand.
Those are the kinds of things that I haven't heard Jackie talk a lot about.
So, um, but it wasn't, it wasn't unhealthy, it wasn't unhealthy.
It was just that, yeah, it was, if you have two relationships and you're like, why did
I miss this one more than I'm missing this one?
And the missing this one, is that a healthy missing?
Um, does, when you have the missing for this other person, is it a peaceful missing or
is it an anxious missing?
I would say looking back and being like, even though I was really struggling to know whether
we were compatible, had concerns about whether we were actually compatible, I just always
liked being with this person.
Yeah.
Well, and at certain ages we can like being with somebody, but at an older age, that's
not enough.
They have to be, they have to have the same values, beliefs, goals, dreams, right?
Like you can like a lot of people that aren't good for you.
Like I can think about some guys that I've dated that are like, oh my gosh, I really
miss that guy.
But we were not, we were not going in the same direction.
We just weren't.
And so was this person somebody, I mean, do you feel like you miss more of the fantasy
of what could have been, or did you just, did you guys spend a lot of time together
and like in person time together?
With the one I actually missed?
You're really missing.
Did you spend a lot of in-person time?
She lives up the road.
She still lives up the road from you?
Yeah.
Is she still single?
Yeah.
And why did you guys break up?
Well, this is a long, this is a long, I mean, I could go on, but I guess I just like, I've
never.
I've never heard Jackie talk about it.
I've never heard Jackie talk about this topic.
Well, what's the topic?
Tell me what the topic is that you're confused about.
The topic is being a trap, like trauma attraction.
Oh, trauma bond?
Okay, trauma bond.
And being addicted to like the chase
and not the actual person.
Being addicted to the fantasy and not the actual person.
Yeah, okay.
Because like, when I look back,
when I look back at,
cause she's not a part of,
the second girl was part of this community,
the first was not.
I figured the second one was a part of this community.
When I look back at Alex,
it was like, it was so fun and easy.
Whereas with the girl that was part of this community,
it was like, it was, I just,
the whole thing was like-
Well, part of the problem with the Florida one
is she was long distance.
So that's gonna make it not easy at all.
And it's gonna make it not as fun.
It's not gonna make it fun at all.
So I think those are,
I feel like those are apples and oranges.
It is so hard to date long distance.
Like you gotta be all in in it to win it
because you can only do so much digital.
It's like, you know, I mean,
so I feel like it's not fair
cause you have no idea what it would.
Now, when you were with the Florida person in person,
did you guys enjoy each other?
Yeah, I mean, I would always kind of settle down.
We always did Jesus stuff.
It was always amazing.
But I didn't like, I didn't-
You always did Jesus stuff?
I just mean like everything-
You were really not Jesus stuff?
I just mean like, it was like, yeah,
but it was always amazing.
But like, she said once, she said,
I don't know that you like being around me.
And I was like-
Did you?
Sometimes when people say things,
it's difficult to, she said like every time,
she said oftentimes when I come up to you,
you seem to like draw back.
And I'm like, I can't deny it.
So it was true?
It was true.
Yeah, so then she was not your person.
So she was not your person,
but the question you're asking is,
how do I know if what I'm connected to
is a healthy connection
or is it like a trauma bond connection?
I will say this, when I have trauma bond connections
with somebody either in my present or in my past,
your heart races, your breath is different.
There's a little anxiety, anxiousness.
There's a heightened, like your body is just heightened.
When you miss somebody that's a healthy miss,
it's a more calm, peaceful miss.
So like literally your heart rate, your blood pressure,
your pulse is very, when it's trauma bonded,
it's very heightened.
And when it's a healthy miss, like I miss,
I can't even believe I'm saying this, I miss my dad.
I literally never thought this side of the veil,
I would miss my dad who went home and I miss him.
I just miss him.
There's some people from Connecticut that I just miss them.
I miss their friendship.
It doesn't make me like get all anxious.
I just miss them.
But then when I think about some of the unhealthy
relationships I had and the high that I used to get from it,
like, golly, he was so good.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like I miss them, but there's just something about it.
Like it doesn't have the same calm that goes with it.
Does that make sense?
So I think that's how you can tell the body keeps a score.
So I think that's how you can tell if you're missing
somebody or your attraction to somebody is healthy
because the whole body is going to tell you a story.
Does that help give you any kind of insight to this?
I guess not anything new necessarily,
but it's just, it is helpful to hear.
So when you miss this person, do you,
like, how does it make you feel?
Are you just a little sad?
Or do you feel, like, anxious?
I mean, there is the level of, like.
Can you go back to her?
Is she somebody that you need to circle back with?
Or is that off the table?
This spring she reached out to me
and we've talked a couple of times this summer.
Right now she's back and forth from Kansas
because her mom is getting cancer treatment.
Okay.
She's gone for like three or four weeks at a time
and stopped back.
She'll stop back in for a weekend or two and then go back.
So you guys have almost opened the door just a little bit.
We've opened, she.
from if I piece the parts together my past our pastors coaching her on taking
over her mom's business and apparently there was something said between Steve
and her and on the way back from that meeting she just like picked up the
phone and called me for the first time we hadn't talked for like well we never
talked the entire time I was talking to this other girl and plus some so it was
kind of like an out-of-the-blue just like hey how you doing and and and so
basically she kind of said hey like you ever want to talk like I'm open if not
that's fine too and so I keep going keep going finish your sentence so I I
basically like I was heading this was heading this was like June I was heading
into the summer like really trying to like focus on in my life and get some
stuff wrapped up and but at the same time I could not just ignore that you
know I did not feel like my personality I could not ignore that and so we talked
and I said Alex like you know there's no secret how we both felt about each
other and I said Alex like if if I could if I was in a position where I was able
to pursue a relationship again or could explore that again I would be sure to I
would let you know directly and at first she was a little flustered you know
because she was hurt and but at the same time like we talked things through we
talked a little bit about a relationship and what we've learned since then and
because I because like silent in my mind silence would have been I don't care and
I didn't I'm confused I'm confused Chris so if this is the person that got
away and you miss her more than you've missed anybody else and she's basically
walking back into your life and you're saying that you don't have it to give
are you just do you feel like you're just not in a healthy place to be
dating anyone right now like I'm kind of confused I'm I have no intention of
dating anyone right now until I get some things like figured out okay Paul
when you were saying sounds like love addiction what were you referencing
referencing I was reading something recently about the pursuit addiction
wanting to pursue yeah cuz I was struggling a little bit with like yeah
like I hate finding somebody like not but then all of a sudden I was in this
so anyway I was just well and it did and it's not really matching because she's
coming back around and he's kind of pushing her away those things that you're
the reasons I don't need to know the reasons because Mike's asking you do you
want her in your life like I wonder if it's easier to miss her the old version
of her and who she used to be and what it used to be then actually invest in a
current version of each of you well it's not that it's not that I wouldn't
want to go spend time with her like if I could if I did what I wanted to do I
would go hang out with her but I cannot go back into that I can't like tear up
our hearts again I can't go back into that until I like have pretty solid that
like yes we may realize we're not incompatible but I'm not back out of
this just because I get scared like so I have to go and Jackie said the same
thing she's like you can't date her again you can't try to date her again
where you are right now you have to obviously Jackie knows more than I do
about what's going on in your life okay well what you can't do is be halfway
with an ex I'm sorry I just don't believe that like when people are like
oh well we can just be friends that's crap like like I'm if somebody like if
you guys broke each other's hearts or whatever and there could be a future you
can't do this halfway like hey let's kind of talk and be friends like you're
either gonna be pursuing again or you're not I don't know we're we're not we had
we had two conversations yeah back in like June and you know I think last time
she was in town it was like it was like two text messages hey how's your mom
doing yeah well I'm gonna be praying for you guys Mike I I only want you to
put time and energy into a girl that's all in for you man I don't want you
wasting on any time on a chick that's out of the country that's just giving
you crumbs off the banquet table and I don't want her just I don't even know
who she is so I'm not even trying to diss her I'm just saying and this goes
for all of you guys you guys deserve to get the very best
out of somebody, never feel like you're only the one giving
and the other person is on the receiving end.
Like, yes, you wanna meet their needs
and that's a good and godly thing.
That's like, that's a total male thing,
but like your needs get to matter too.
And so I don't want any of you to accept
less than all that you deserve.
That's what I think.
I think you all deserve something amazing, right?
Yeah.
Hey Mike, can I ask a question?
So Renee can comment, otherwise I'd message you later.
Have you ever, and this is gonna hear me out,
hear my heart, then before you judge,
have you ever like watched podcasts or that kind of thing
and about attraction and male attraction, attracting women,
where you have to like tune out some parts of it?
Does that make any sense?
Have you ever watched any material on dating
that you've had to like be like, well, that's not godly.
I'm not gonna pay attention to that
because I'll just be honest to you.
Like there's just a little bit of like
a few rules to the game.
And I haven't heard Jackie like talk about it much.
I haven't been involved in all the discussions,
but you know, if, I don't know, I'm just,
yeah, I guess I don't mean to be dicey,
but I'm just saying like,
in terms of like communication styles and stuff like that,
and it's not manipulated.
I'm not saying manipulate someone.
I'm just saying like learning how to like attract someone.
You meaning like, you think that, Chris,
do you think Mike is being too generous with this person?
And so she's taking advantage of that?
I wonder if Mike's being too generous with this person
so it doesn't create attraction.
And I don't mean play games.
I don't mean play games.
I just know that like.
So for clarity, right?
So like for the only person I've actually
really heavily pursued in this whole group,
very complicated scenario.
She's in a really interesting thing.
I came on, well, my anxious went full blown,
which was shitty.
I just so bad, right?
I can hate that, right?
You know, like I get so, I'm extroverted.
So I get like wound and then the anxious thing.
And so I kind of freaked her out a little bit
and I completely own that.
But I like, we've been chatting and I love it.
I love actually talking with her.
I mean, we have so much in common,
but like it's such a fucked scenario.
I'm sorry.
It's such a bad scenario.
And so I just, I really appreciate her friendship.
I really do like her.
I mean, I do really care for her,
but I don't, you're saying the blessing to,
I'm a naturally generous person
and Jackie was kind of calling me on that,
to not lead with the fullness of who I am.
It's not true.
To like, not with the benefits, but with me, right?
So, but are you saying that I'm,
Chris, from what I thought I hear you saying is like,
I'm pushing, I'm trying to be safe by like flooding it.
I don't, I was trying to understand
where you're coming at.
You're muted.
I'm going to shoot straight, Renee.
I just, I just don't want you to be too nice
because that can be a turnoff.
And I don't mean manipulate her.
That's not what I'm saying.
I don't know how to be a turnoff.
I don't, I'm not saying being-
I agree with, I think I agree with what Chris is saying.
I didn't know what you were saying before, Chris,
but I thought you were saying he was being nice to ruin it.
But yes, there is too nice.
There is too nice.
There is giving too much.
And so, you know how like it's the,
you know how they say the men like the chase
and so we can't like show our hand too much.
It actually works in the other direction too.
If someone like overwhelms you
with too much of an amazing thing
and you don't have the capacity to receive it
or give it back, you're gonna kind of push it away.
Now she's able to manage you
because you guys have a continent dividing you.
But I just, I just feel like that's my,
so my concern is you are meeting her needs.
needs for whatever it is that she's willing to get out of this friendship because she's
talking to you sometimes too, but she doesn't need anything else than what you're giving
her because either that's all she has the capacity for in her life right now and or
she wants to meet somebody local.
So you're filling this bucket for now, but the problem is you want more.
So your needs aren't getting met and so you're, you're getting unequally balanced here, which
is kind of what we started up about with Paul.
Like right.
If she's got her needs met, but now she's not willing to meet his needs.
So she's got to go like, okay, like he worked to meet my needs.
So is that kind of what you're saying, Chris?
It's like, she's going to keep talking to you because man, if like you're great and
you're a fun guy and you got this big distance between you, so she doesn't have to ever deal
with dating you, but that's going to, it's going to stop you.
It's keeping you trapped in this connected.
Yeah.
And also like just what you said, Renee, if someone's not green, if someone's not like
into this thing and you keep like, you're still there, you're just like closing their
heart down even more.
And so just, just real quick, I mean just real quick, um, the girl that I mentioned
that Alex, who we were pretty close and really enjoyed each other.
I was like curious, you know, in some ways I thought she was always too cool for me,
but I was like curious and I helped her with some projects at her house.
And then finally one night she said, you know, I'm not, I don't feel the same way about you
that you do about me.
And I looked at her and I was like, okay, that's, I'm glad that's out.
And I don't, cause I know how hard it is to force these things.
And we laughed and I finished shutting up her television and I wrote her a note the
next Sunday.
I was over at her house with a bunch of other people for a super bowl the next day.
And two days after that, she was like wanting to see me again and everything changed.
But because in that moment, and again, it breaks my heart, like my, my, my intentions
were totally pure.
And I'm just saying, because she said, I'm not there.
And I was like, that's okay.
I think you're, I think you're cool.
I'm glad we had this sorted out.
That's laugh.
You know, I'll see you around.
That opened her heart up.
Now I had zero intention of being manipulative, zero.
So okay.
Just like, because like this whole thing, like, cause I felt like I had a friend and
I have this feeling in myself that I needed to pull back.
Right.
And you know, like what, what if she comes back?
Like, like you said, like what if she comes back?
Like do I just let it go?
And I just feel like Mike, your, your head is so far in this, like you have to pull back
for your, you're so emotionally attached to her that you have to pull back for your own
sanity.
Now, will she kind of pull back in?
Of course she will, because you're meeting her bucket.
So she's going to fill this loss.
And so she's going to kind of come back in, but she's still not giving you what you want.
And she's still going to be getting her needs met.
But the problem is her getting her needs met is hurting you.
So what if she will, okay.
So in that scenario, you'd have to be, she'd have to be for her to come back in.
What Chris and I are trying to say is for her to come back in, she needs to come back
all in, like not just talk to you every day.
And, but like, Mike, I realize I miss you.
I realize I want to date you.
I don't care that there's a country dividing us.
We're going to find a way to see each other in person.
Like we're going to give it a go unless she comes in that strong.
She's just going to come back in to get her needs met.
Okay, cool.
No, that was what, that's why I wanted, cause I didn't want to throw it out, you know, like
the baby out with the bathwater, but like, what does it look like if it's like legitimately
coming back?
Legitimately coming back is she wants to do more than just talk to you every day.
Chris is agreeing with me.
I don't even know her, but that's, that's what I'm thinking.
Like I think if somebody swings back in, they got to call full court, full court press.
Like they've got to show a reason to earn their way back in.
Josh, you've been quiet since you first got on the phone.
I see your home now.
And do you want to share any wisdom, ask anything of the two amazing men that are still
here?
I mean, it doesn't have to be me too.
So I'm glad you guys are all here.
This has been fun tonight.
You're muted though.
I don't have anything.
Has this been good for you?
I don't.
All this drama?
I usually just listen.
Oh, okay.
Well, Josh, we're glad you're here.
I mean, learn a lot.
Learn a lot.
Learn from, learn from the men.
Learn a lot.
I mean, learn from them.
You guys, it's hard.
Like doing life and dating and, you know, over 25 is,
it's just not the same as it used to be.
And we're coming in with a lot more baggage,
a lot more stuff.
Chris, I don't know what it is that you have to do
and take care of in your story, in your life,
but you seem too great to wait too long to get it all right.
So I hope you don't wait too long
to get yourself back in the game.
Because I believe that there is somebody
who would want to walk that journey out with you.
That's all I'm going to say.
I'm just supposed to tell you that.
That's what I'm supposed to tell you.
Yeah, Josh, how are you doing?
Like you don't have to say too much,
but how's your heart these days?
Yeah.
I almost tapped my bigger screen.
So I have that up so I can use the keyboard if I need to.
But to your question,
I think the thing that I'm struggling with
is the difference between surrender and giving up.
And I know the difference,
but the real challenge is always the part
of accepting one over the other.
It's, you know, it's fun to,
it's fun and pleasurable to be sad,
if you know what I mean.
Yeah.
And to go through the motions.
That's always the kicker.
It's like, you know, it's not right.
And you're not intentionally doing it yet.
In some unconscious way,
you want to drag it out and you want, you know,
but anyway, surrender and giving up,
giving up being quitting, you know,
that's a difficult one because
it feels good, better that way.
And then, but that's selfish
because then you bring the spotlight onto yourself
and it's all about, well, I gave up
and then someone asked you why.
And then that enables you,
here's the microphone, talk about your issues.
So then it almost fuels the fire
of wanting to point blame on whatever,
not necessarily people.
It could be God, maybe,
because you're just angry with God
and you're open, you're not dishonest
to not tell it straight to God one-on-one,
but you will go beyond that to say
that if given the opportunity,
you'll just lash out anywhere just to, you know,
because it's pleasurable, you know, to let out like that.
But I try to, I avoid that anyway,
because I think it's pointless.
So it's more of an internal personal challenge of,
but I think that's how it's always been in life
with any, not even having to do with the relationship
with people in general, just life in general,
you know, and maturing, the process of maturing.
You're always gonna have things that you struggle with.
And at least for me, it seems like, you know,
many times God has shown me a more righter way
that has, that my flesh doesn't want to adopt
and that I always have to put up a fight against.
But dad's always encouraged me that,
especially in my teens with things that I've gone through,
that, you know, in the context of addictions or bondage
that you find yourself in,
that you just can't seem to escape from.
Dad gave me this encouragement once,
that the fact that you are resisting is enough,
because it goes to say that the fact that you are resisting,
the posture that you're presenting is that you don't agree
with the thing that you are resisting against.
And that's not what you want,
because if that's what you want,
then you just let that wall down and go all in.
Like, you know, if it was, you know,
if physical touch is some aspect of it
and it wanted to come out in a perverted way
beyond just pornography or, you know, something like that,
it'd be like, shoot, I'm just gonna go to a bar.
And then, you know, you just, one thing after another,
just to accelerate, you know, pedal to the metal
to try and get to some really,
some end that you would probably maybe
end up really regretting, you know,
and not just, you know, personally, but even before God,
if you value that relationship with God.
So, you know, resistance, but, you know, over time,
then time is the second piece to it is,
and that we all hate that, I'm sure.
You never see a conference on patience ever, so.
But enough time spent resisting something builds faith in God because over time you
through the valleys and the hills the good ups and downs the goods and
bads you know that experience that that's what builds your relationship with God
because when in those lows as you go through them you know that's when you come to find out
that you can trust God in those circumstances and that he's always there with you and for you and
working in your benefit and that sometimes as children you know children there we go
that we don't know everything we don't see everything we don't understand everything
and when daddy comes along and he's trying to guide us along with his wisdom and with his
knowledge of where we actually need to be you know that can be painful because we can't see
everything in front of us oh how many times you know what I would wish that God can you just show
me where you're trying to take me and the end goal so that way I can see like okay to get there
I have to go through a b c d and e but all of those in-betweens that's gonna be rough
okay I'm gonna hike a mountain without any shoes uh bare feet you know that I know that's gonna
be painful and you're not gonna give me any tools to not have okay so can I just stop for a second
I'm gonna give you a visual because I actually think there there's a different posture for
surrender versus giving up surrender is a little bit like hands loose like you know that I will be
done giving up I've dropped and I've left the game um in my heart surrender has hope giving up is
hopeless um but what you just described besides surrender is like trusting in God so one of this
I and I only did this because you guys know I'm in seminary and I had to do I had to pick a
spiritual formation to do all this work with this summer and I picked trust and surrender so I'm
really big on this and one of the chapters in this book that I read talked about how true surrender
instead like when we're treading water you tread water because you want to be able to see where
you're going and you want to control your surroundings everything that you just described
I want to know when this is tough and I want to know when the rapids are going to come and I want
to know when it's going to start to rain but the problem is we can only tread water too long we
could actually survive in the ocean if we just floated like if you were capsized in a boat if
you just floated you would actually last a long time but floating requires us to lay back and not
see where we're going and that's what trusting and surrendering to the holy spirit is supposed
to be like it's supposed to be more like a float so you don't get to see like if you really trust
God and you really surrender your story to him you lay back and you float and you let him take
you along and to activate this I actually went to one of those float pods because I've been to Israel
so I know what it's like to float in the salt in this float pod literally for five minutes I was
literally I could feel my abs working to keep myself floating in this damn thing and I find
it took me five minutes to go stop like and so that's what's true surrender looks like is when
we just stop trying but our posture is still open-handed ready to receive that is a way
different posture than giving up so um that's just my encouragement to you because what you
were describing isn't trusting God it's like hey I just need this and I get it I want it too I mean
I'm like no one likes a plan you guys I thought I was the most unstructured um don't need a plan
fly by the seat of my pants kind of person and then the last three contracts that I've had I've
worked with crazy entrepreneurs that just have dreams that out the yazoo and they don't know
how to put a plan I mean drive me batshit like just like they're just they're just so creative
I'm like oh my gosh I realize I do like plans I do like a process I didn't think I did but I
apparently do and so I don't know that's my encouragement to you Josh is just go to a salt
thing and just like practice that posture of just letting go and that's not giving up at all
that's not giving up at all but it is it is letting go of that you got to do it like that
you got to work the plan like the only thing Peter had to do was get out of the boat that
was the only part that was on him everything else when he was walking on water was just about
keeping his eyes on Jesus he didn't have to worry about the storm he wasn't supposed to worry about
anything else so whatever it is I don't know what your story is um just keep your eye on him just
float and he will he will direct your path you know thy word is a lamp unto a feet and a light
unto my path I always love that it's a lamp like a lamp only shows you about five feet in front of
A lamp does not give you a lot of light.
So, I don't know.
Maybe what I just said has nothing to do
with what you were trying to say, but.
So I don't disagree.
I think you're right on with what surrender is.
I've had a time in my life where I've got to enjoy rest
in that fashion.
And I don't know to what degree God would only know,
but from what I experienced,
it almost seemed like I had the kind of rest
that most people wish that they could have
with God just like that.
And the challenge herein is when you consciously recognize
that that's what you need.
And I've experienced it so I can relate to it.
All the things that you've described,
I know what you're talking about,
because I've been there.
But like, for instance,
the season of your life that you're in,
it's different for every person,
but maybe you can relate to what I'm about to say,
is that maybe there's a season of your life
where you're observing of yourself
that the zeal for God just isn't there.
But you know you haven't abandoned God
and you know that feelings
are not what makes the relationship.
It's his love for us, it starts as a decision.
And so sometimes I wonder if I think too much,
but the thing is that when I recognize these things,
like God, I remember that time when you just brought,
allowed me into a place of rest and total surrender,
just no attachment to anything.
And then not just that, but how through that,
through that, how you did stuff through me
in other people's lives, just like that.
And I was just like, you're just the observer,
you're just in the rollercoaster,
you keep the hands inside, you're strapped down,
don't do anything or you'll mess it up, you know?
The challenge here is that
when you're not in that spot anymore,
how do you get back?
And then you do, there's things you can do,
but nothing happens.
And God doesn't always answer back.
So you gotta, you have to accept that
that that's part of the journey sometimes.
So what I'm trying to get at
is there's not a button I can just press.
There's no light switch I can just flip,
and it's like that.
There's no backup that I can go to
and hit the restore button and it, okay,
let's try again.
So that's the challenge of it.
But in the interim, while I'm not giving up on God
because I know what he's brought me through.
So all of the things I said was really more of a,
how I'm thinking, running my mind through it,
that no, God's been there for me.
And things tend to be this way.
I just need to stick to it and keep with the fight.
And when it comes to the topic of relationship,
that's a difficult,
that's where that,
so if we're talking about what's on the frontline
of warfare in your life individually,
in each of your life,
if we could say that,
this is where you feel most alive in terms of warfare.
It doesn't mean that it's gonna be a good thing,
but it's like, yeah, man, this is it.
This is, so that for me,
that would be that bit of surrender and giving up in like,
so a lot of, most of the time I listen here
because as strange as it may seem,
initially I have a little bit of discouragement
and then I come out great in the end
because I realized that, man,
all the issues and challenges you guys are dealing with,
ooh, I don't have to deal with that.
I can, I'm at peace that, you know,
I can just give it up to God because the thing is,
I realize-
Josh, don't, don't, don't,
don't misuse surrender as keeping yourself out of the game.
Because I'll tell you what, even though Peter sunk,
Peter's the only one that got to walk on water.
11 other guys did not get out of the boat.
So, you know, it's,
we can look at it as a failure that he sunk,
but I look at it as he was a badass.
Like he got out of the boat.
So I'm going to make sure that we,
I keep finding you on these calls
to make sure that you're not letting yourself
say safely in the bleachers.
So I, I, I, failure and there's failure
and then there's a,
I don't know what to call this thing over here,
but in my life, yeah, I've had a lot of failures,
but I, I'm thankful to God that I've had them
because everything that I've had that not went well,
let's put it that way.
I reflect, it gives me an opportunity to reflect on it.
There's really no,
there's no real failure in God's economy.
You know, God, you know, God,
Like something out of everything.
Um, so you're just creating your testimony
and we're never late in his timing.
So, you know, if we don't look at it in his perspective, then we're always
going to look at it in a way that rubs us off or rubs us down.
If that makes any sense, it won't ever.
Someone told me this once in a past relationship that I had challenges
and it was that in referring to the words, not just the words that come out
of my mouth, but the mentality, the heart behind those words that you
either speak life or you speak death.
And I've had, I've thought about it for a few years now.
It's like, man, that's, it's so simple.
You either speak life or death.
I, so most of the time I just shut up because I have to work through a lot of
thoughts on what do I really think?
But then I have to reel my mind back to God through those not healthy
thoughts to recognize, because I think too much sometimes, and I have to
think through so much to realize, well, you know, I've looked at it on all
of these angles, man, there's only one way and that's Jesus, and then it
brings me back and it's like, okay.
And then I've got these scriptures on the wall and it's like, God, you are so good.
Josh, I'm glad you spoke up.
Yeah.
Chris or Mike, whoever asked him a question.
Thank you for doing that.
That was good.
You guys, I'm going to get in trouble like 40 minutes after the hour.
So it's been a, oh yeah, actually, you know what?
Let me go ahead and just cut the recording off and then you guys can say stuff.