WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.440 Today, we're going to look at scaling your business by working backwards. 2 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.560 You know, this is a different way of thinking. 3 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:14.400 Traditionally, or the classic way of thinking about this is, well, let's figure out what 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:20.800 does our business produce, what products can we make and then how do we sell them to customers. 5 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:23.960 A better way to do it is to do it backwards. 6 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:25.280 Start with the customer. 7 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:31.160 What does the customer need and then figure out how to deliver that to the customer, even 8 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:37.260 if that means partnering with other business to help solve that customer need. 9 00:00:37.260 --> 00:00:39.920 This is a very different way of thinking. 10 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:44.740 So when we're talking about working backwards, we mean we start with the end customer. 11 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:45.960 What do they need? 12 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:46.960 And then work backwards. 13 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:47.960 We don't say, what do they need? 14 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:49.320 What have we got? 15 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:50.320 What do they need? 16 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:51.880 Whether we have it or not. 17 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:53.040 Do we partner with others? 18 00:00:53.040 --> 00:00:54.040 Do we build it? 19 00:00:54.040 --> 00:00:55.040 Do we create it? 20 00:00:55.040 --> 00:01:01.880 And as part of this, the story that helped me understand this and implement this in my 21 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:06.000 own business was the Airbnb story. 22 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:11.800 Now when Airbnb first started, you know, they had their first postings, but nobody was booking 23 00:01:11.800 --> 00:01:13.080 the rooms. 24 00:01:13.080 --> 00:01:20.600 So the CEO and the CFO actually went to this lady's house to find out what was going on. 25 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:26.320 Now obviously this is not a sustainable thing for the CEO and CFO to be going to a customer's 26 00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:27.320 house. 27 00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:31.320 But they did and they noticed that something was lacking in the photography. 28 00:01:31.320 --> 00:01:33.040 There was something wrong with the presentation. 29 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:38.160 It didn't look safe or refreshing, it was just done, you know, on somebody's cell phone. 30 00:01:38.160 --> 00:01:41.560 And as it turns out, one of them happened to be a great photographer. 31 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:48.000 So they took amazing photographs, reposted them, and immediately there was a response. 32 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:53.280 They quickly learned that they needed to get professional grade photography to do this. 33 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.120 Now what was the principle they were using here? 34 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:01.160 They went to the customer and they imagined that their customer's customer, right? 35 00:02:01.160 --> 00:02:08.000 The person who was posting their home needed to have amazing photographs so that somebody 36 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.840 would book and stay at their home. 37 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:16.920 So they used a principle in which you do unsustainable things to learn to scale. 38 00:02:16.920 --> 00:02:21.200 Or another way of saying it is we do unscalable things to learn to scale. 39 00:02:21.200 --> 00:02:22.840 What do I mean? 40 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:26.640 Obviously the CFO and the CEO could not go to every single person's house. 41 00:02:26.640 --> 00:02:31.520 This is not a sustainable or scalable business by any means. 42 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:37.440 But what they did do is they figured out what was necessary to unlock how to scale. 43 00:02:37.440 --> 00:02:43.480 In this case, they started putting and contracting with professional photographers in every city 44 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:48.160 to make sure the photographs looked amazing. 45 00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:51.640 So that is one of the big key ideas we want to talk about. 46 00:02:51.640 --> 00:02:58.560 So what do you need to do, even if it's unsustainable, calling customers, going one-on-one, connecting 47 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:05.160 with a customer to find out what does the customer actually need, then work backwards. 48 00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:11.600 And in doing that, we're also looking then at what is the total customer experience. 49 00:03:11.600 --> 00:03:15.200 Not just what's their initial experience, but their total experience. 50 00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:17.880 We want to go through that process. 51 00:03:17.880 --> 00:03:24.200 When our organization offers somebody to sign up for a conference or event, I will sign 52 00:03:24.200 --> 00:03:30.100 up myself because I want to see what's the entire experience like. 53 00:03:30.100 --> 00:03:32.820 And then the third idea we're going to talk about is dogfooding. 54 00:03:32.820 --> 00:03:34.200 So three ideas. 55 00:03:34.200 --> 00:03:37.880 How to do unsustainable things so we can learn to scale. 56 00:03:37.880 --> 00:03:40.420 Two, what's the total customer experience. 57 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:41.500 And three, dogfooding. 58 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:44.780 In other words, it refers to eating your own dogfood. 59 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:45.780 Bit of a gross metaphor. 60 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:50.860 But what it means is, do you like your own products enough to use them yourselves? 61 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:55.660 So let's take each of those three items and break them out. 62 00:03:55.660 --> 00:03:59.340 So let's start with the product development. 63 00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:04.940 Starting with the customer and working backwards means we can ask ourselves a couple of questions. 64 00:04:04.940 --> 00:04:07.820 So here are seven questions. 65 00:04:07.820 --> 00:04:08.820 And you can just pick one. 66 00:04:08.820 --> 00:04:13.540 It would make a massive difference, but you're welcome to do more than one. 67 00:04:13.540 --> 00:04:15.260 Question number one. 68 00:04:15.260 --> 00:04:22.980 What things can we do that do not scale, but will teach us what the customer needs? 69 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:24.420 Number two. 70 00:04:24.420 --> 00:04:30.880 How can we go out into the world and meet our customer and discover their experience 71 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:33.000 in their natural environment? 72 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:39.040 Notice the CFO and CEO at Airbnb did not invite the lady to their head office. 73 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.200 They went to her home. 74 00:04:41.200 --> 00:04:42.380 So that's the question. 75 00:04:42.380 --> 00:04:47.560 How can we go out into the world and meet our customers in their natural environment? 76 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:53.700 Is there something you can do to meet your customer in the natural environment? 77 00:04:53.700 --> 00:04:55.040 Number three. 78 00:04:55.040 --> 00:05:00.040 Do we move our products, how do we move our products from being liked to being loved? 79 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:04.860 Maybe people like your products, but do they love your products? What can we do 80 00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:10.400 to move that? And the best way to do that is to ask your best customers. Look, every 81 00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:15.880 business has some raving fans. People who will have an open discussion with you. So 82 00:05:15.880 --> 00:05:21.540 we like to call our raving fans and say, hey, you know, what can we do to this 83 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:27.460 product to make you really love it, not just like it? And it's amazing. I will 84 00:05:27.460 --> 00:05:32.300 tell you this one thing about this particular question you might ask. It's 85 00:05:32.300 --> 00:05:36.140 often the tiniest things. You might think, well, they're going to ask for major 86 00:05:36.140 --> 00:05:40.220 development or they're going to ask for a whole new service. You'll be surprised 87 00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:44.180 how tiny some of the things are. Some of the things that our customers have 88 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:50.380 suggested have literally been minutes to fix. Like when I register for the event, 89 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:54.940 can I immediately get the links I need so that I can access the information I 90 00:05:54.940 --> 00:05:58.860 need straight away? Sure. Hang on, that'll take a few seconds. Or it's just 91 00:05:58.860 --> 00:06:03.540 that we haven't always gone through the experience ourselves. And so we don't 92 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:08.540 know what it is they feel or we assume they know where to click, what to do, 93 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:13.980 where to go. Because we understand it, we assume they do. And often it's these 94 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:22.820 tiny little refinements that move you from like to love. You know, even, you 95 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:28.060 know, when we do conferences, we've learned that it's these tiny refinements, 96 00:06:28.060 --> 00:06:33.300 it's the clarity of language, these tiny little upgrades and changes that help 97 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:37.220 people move from like to love with our events. And we've seen much higher 98 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:42.180 conversion rates of people buying our products at our events because we've 99 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:46.620 learned these tiny refinements and continue to learn. Question number four. 100 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:53.260 What is the invisible gap between our product and our market? We think that 101 00:06:53.260 --> 00:06:58.380 they're connected but often there's a gap we don't see. Once again, you could 102 00:06:58.380 --> 00:07:03.140 ask your customers simple questions. You know, people love to answer your 103 00:07:03.140 --> 00:07:07.380 questions. Say, phone people and say, thank you so much for being one of our best 104 00:07:07.380 --> 00:07:12.460 customers. Would you mind spending a few minutes and explaining to me, you know, 105 00:07:12.460 --> 00:07:16.900 what is you enjoy, how to use the product. And if you can get into their 106 00:07:16.900 --> 00:07:21.500 natural environment, where they're using the product, this would be amazing. 107 00:07:21.500 --> 00:07:28.380 Question number five. How do we get customers to use the word a company name 108 00:07:28.380 --> 00:07:33.580 and love in the same sentence, right? How do we get, in our case, how do we get 109 00:07:33.580 --> 00:07:38.300 people to use the word brilliant and love in the same sentence? How can we get 110 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:43.100 people to fall in love with what we do and tell others about it? This, when 111 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:47.880 people are naturally excited, it's like permission marketing. We've just given 112 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:53.260 them permission to talk about the product. You know, I was, I heard a 113 00:07:53.260 --> 00:08:01.220 fantastic story about a concierge in a hotel and what had happened was a family 114 00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:05.100 came. They had a young child with them. They were there for a few days and when 115 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:10.780 that family got to the airport, they found out that their, that her little 116 00:08:10.780 --> 00:08:16.460 favorite cuddly toy or teddy bear wasn't with them. They'd left it in the hotel. 117 00:08:16.460 --> 00:08:22.300 This child had never been separated from this little toy, this teddy bear, in her 118 00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:27.220 whole life. And so they frantically called the concierge who said, I will, I 119 00:08:27.220 --> 00:08:31.980 will track it down and get it to you. Well, and they happened to find the 120 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:36.539 little teddy bear in the lost and found, very fortunately, but obviously knew they 121 00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:41.740 could not get it to the family before their flight left. So what they did, now 122 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:46.180 listen to this, tiny little refinements, they took the teddy bear and took 123 00:08:46.180 --> 00:08:51.180 photos of it sitting at the poolside and then photos of it on the playground and 124 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:55.340 then all these different photos eating, photos relaxing, and they sent these 125 00:08:55.340 --> 00:09:01.140 photos to the family to reassure the child that Teddy was having amazing time 126 00:09:01.260 --> 00:09:05.940 and we'll see them the next day. And of course they FedExed the teddy bear to 127 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:11.140 the child. It's these little things, it's the tiniest little things. I heard another 128 00:09:11.140 --> 00:09:17.060 story about a great restaurant and this couple was celebrating a, you know, a 129 00:09:17.060 --> 00:09:24.100 major anniversary, you know, like a 25th anniversary. And, but he had left the 130 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:30.260 the fancy bottle of wine that he'd been saving for years for this event. And so 131 00:09:30.420 --> 00:09:36.100 he, so as they were, you know, checking and he tells the server who calls the 132 00:09:36.100 --> 00:09:41.060 manager, well the manager sends somebody to this guy's house, gets the wine and 133 00:09:41.060 --> 00:09:46.740 drives it back for them to have that exact wine. You know, it's these tiny 134 00:09:46.740 --> 00:09:52.860 refinements, it's these small things that make people move from like to love in 135 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:58.580 your business. Okay, question number six. What is the sweet spot for building 136 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:00.020 trust with our customers? 137 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:04.360 Again, hint, it's the tiny refinements. 138 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:05.860 What is the sweet spot? 139 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:08.480 Where is it that when you do that one thing, 140 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.300 you get a disproportionate response 141 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:15.160 to your product or your service? 142 00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:18.840 And number seven, what do we not want in our product? 143 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.240 Sometimes, you know, inadvertently, 144 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:22.700 we put things in our products. 145 00:10:22.700 --> 00:10:26.160 I remember when I was running a software company, 146 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:28.040 you know, one of our engineers 147 00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:29.680 just threw up a tiny little window, 148 00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:31.720 literally was this tiny little window 149 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:33.080 with little scroll bars. 150 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:34.960 We had to put all this information in. 151 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:37.120 Originally, it was just a little test window. 152 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.080 Well, that little window got a life, 153 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:42.480 and our customers hated trying to get 154 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.360 into that tiny little window and scroll around, 155 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.360 and it literally took the engineers three seconds 156 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.560 to just make it bigger, and now you've got a big window. 157 00:10:51.560 --> 00:10:53.280 What do we not want in our products? 158 00:10:53.280 --> 00:10:54.920 Frustration, what do we not, 159 00:10:54.920 --> 00:10:57.560 we don't want to force the customer 160 00:10:57.560 --> 00:11:00.680 to pay the price to use our products, right? 161 00:11:00.680 --> 00:11:03.480 So we want them to love our products. 162 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:06.200 I hope those seven questions help you 163 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:08.560 to really help you scale. 164 00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:13.560 Start with the customer experience and then work backwards. 165 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.640 Okay, I wanna talk then to the second category of stuff. 166 00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:21.160 So these first seven questions were all about 167 00:11:21.160 --> 00:11:24.920 what can we do that doesn't scale to teach us to scale? 168 00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:27.540 The next set, we wanna talk just very briefly 169 00:11:28.380 --> 00:11:30.300 about some powerful questions we can ask 170 00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:33.100 to improve our customer experience, 171 00:11:33.100 --> 00:11:34.820 the whole end-to-end experience. 172 00:11:34.820 --> 00:11:38.640 So here are seven quick questions you can ask 173 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:42.380 to improve your user experience, your customer experience. 174 00:11:42.380 --> 00:11:47.000 Okay, what things do we think our customers can do 175 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:48.860 that they actually cannot do? 176 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:51.020 Oh, they'll know where to find that link. 177 00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:53.780 They will automatically know to press this button. 178 00:11:53.780 --> 00:11:55.980 Oh, it's obvious that the big red button 179 00:11:56.020 --> 00:11:57.420 is the one to press. 180 00:11:59.540 --> 00:12:02.820 Is it clear that in a login what we're asking for? 181 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:05.900 Which password are they supposed to put in? 182 00:12:05.900 --> 00:12:10.520 Which, is it the same email address they use to register? 183 00:12:10.520 --> 00:12:13.020 We just assume that they know things 184 00:12:13.020 --> 00:12:14.700 they don't actually know. 185 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:18.760 So what things do we think our customers can do 186 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:19.860 that actually they cannot? 187 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:24.860 Number two, what would be the perfect user experience? 188 00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:26.720 Can we cut steps out? 189 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:27.760 Can we simplify it? 190 00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:29.620 Can we make it look more beautiful? 191 00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:32.220 What is it we want the customer to feel 192 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:35.380 through the experience, not just get through the process? 193 00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:38.700 Number three, what if the user experience, 194 00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:43.700 end-to-end, could be a pleasant experience? 195 00:12:44.260 --> 00:12:48.600 In other words, do we have little moments in that process 196 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.020 which are stopping them, which are annoying, 197 00:12:51.020 --> 00:12:52.540 which are necessary? 198 00:12:52.540 --> 00:12:57.220 Can we delete steps in that process and make them simpler? 199 00:12:57.220 --> 00:13:01.360 Number four, let's design for trust. 200 00:13:02.380 --> 00:13:05.060 In other words, how can we put trust 201 00:13:05.060 --> 00:13:08.340 at the top of the user experience? 202 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:10.380 You think, well, how do we do that? 203 00:13:10.380 --> 00:13:12.060 In other words, when somebody, 204 00:13:12.060 --> 00:13:14.420 okay, put your credit card in here, 205 00:13:14.420 --> 00:13:17.100 we should give them reassurances of, 206 00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:18.740 you know, that your card's not being used, 207 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:20.880 that we're securing your data, whatever it is, 208 00:13:20.880 --> 00:13:25.680 whatever makes them feel safe and trust this experience. 209 00:13:25.680 --> 00:13:28.880 Number five, what is the sweet spot 210 00:13:28.880 --> 00:13:30.960 for building trust with our customers? 211 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.800 In other words, when we look at all the things we do, 212 00:13:33.800 --> 00:13:36.720 maybe it's that moment in the cart where they get in 213 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.920 and put their credit card information, 214 00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:40.140 that's the sweet spot. 215 00:13:40.140 --> 00:13:43.600 Or maybe at that moment, there's a little video 216 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.680 helping them feel good about the decision 217 00:13:46.680 --> 00:13:48.040 they're about to make. 218 00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:49.120 What is the sweet spot? 219 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:53.760 What's that moment in the process where we can build trust? 220 00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:58.760 Number six, how can we use customer service 221 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.500 as a branding moment? 222 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:04.720 Instead of customer service just being the backstop 223 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.520 for dealing with all customer complaints, 224 00:14:07.520 --> 00:14:11.720 what if we can use that and teach our customer service 225 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.600 people to use this as a branding moment? 226 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:15.840 You know here at Brilliant, 227 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.960 we want you to have a brilliant experience. 228 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:19.680 What can I do to help? 229 00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:22.160 And going that extra little mile, 230 00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:23.800 again, it's the tiniest thing. 231 00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:26.680 So what we've done is we've given our customer service 232 00:14:26.680 --> 00:14:29.560 people a certain degree of latitude to give away 233 00:14:29.560 --> 00:14:34.560 certain products, to increase that customer's experience, 234 00:14:34.560 --> 00:14:36.440 to make on the fly decisions. 235 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.200 You know, why don't I credit you 236 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.340 three months of your subscription? 237 00:14:40.340 --> 00:14:43.840 Whatever it is, what if we make that a branding moment 238 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.600 where they learn to really trust the brand? 239 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:52.120 Number seven, what experiences are customers having 240 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:53.880 that's not good for the long term? 241 00:14:53.880 --> 00:14:55.200 Yeah, they put up with that. 242 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.960 They're not happy, but they put up with it. 243 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.720 But long term, that's not gonna work. 244 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.920 One of the things, you know, in our business, when we host an annual conference, you know, 245 00:15:05.920 --> 00:15:10.640 we were advised that, you know, that there will be early adopters and give them a super low, 246 00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:16.000 you know, rate for the conference. Then you got your normal, you know, rate for the conference, 247 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:21.280 and then you increase the price the last week or two. You know, the customers put up with that, 248 00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:25.040 but it was not good for the long term. People didn't understand why we were 249 00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:29.600 artificially raising the price. And I know this is a debatable point in our industry, 250 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:35.360 but for us, we decided not to do that. It was one price, whether you came early, 251 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.600 we came in the middle, you came late, it didn't matter. We just wanted to have a long term 252 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:45.840 experience that when we said something, you trusted the price. So the trust was more valuable 253 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.920 than just creating hurry to cause them to sign up. Okay, and the last category is dogfooding. 254 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.960 Now, I just want to give you a few thoughts about this. By dogfooding, we mean do you love 255 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:03.440 your product enough that you yourself use it? How in love with your product are you? Do you 256 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:08.560 use your product yourself? You know, if you provide content, if you do leadership training, 257 00:16:08.560 --> 00:16:13.280 is your team doing leadership training? You know, our team at Brilliant are literally going through 258 00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:18.160 this material multiple times. Right now, as a recording of this particular training, 259 00:16:18.160 --> 00:16:23.040 our team have gone through this five times. So you might be going through this the first time. 260 00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:28.320 So that means five years, because every time they hear it, they hear it at a different level. 261 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:33.680 We want to love the very things we're sharing with you, including this very training session. 262 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:40.640 So we really do consume our own materials. And so what we're doing is we're upgrading 263 00:16:40.640 --> 00:16:46.080 our thinking and our learning so that what we're enjoying, we want you to enjoy too. 264 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:51.120 So I hope that was really helpful for you as we went through those three big ideas. 265 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:57.440 You know, what things can we do that may not be sustainable, but will teach us to scale? Number 266 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:02.640 two, let's look at the whole customer experience. And number three, dogfooding. Do we actually eat 267 00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:09.839 our own dogfood? Do we actually enjoy our own content and materials? And all that is to teach us 268 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.079 to start with the customer and work backwards. Thanks for listening.