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Hello, hello.

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Hello.

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All right, we are almost all here.

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Again, how's it going. Hey, good morning.

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More or less morning everywhere. Yeah.

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Yeah, I think except for you, except for me here.

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But not too bad I'm pretty I'm the furthest west possible on this side of the ocean you know so it's only 3pm here.

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Yeah. Yeah, great.

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Are you guys all over the world or where are you. I mean, up and down in the in the Western Hemisphere.

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Mostly yeah we got Canada, Brazil, and then California.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah, cool.

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Bruce you want to give me a little bit of a tour of who's who enroll and stuff like that. Sure.

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Let me just make sure.

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Okay, cool.

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Because you guys can see my camera I think I.

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There we go. We're just doing it. Yes.

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Okay, so yeah we've got. Well first of all, we're super excited to be hanging out and talking we've, I don't think we've prepared for a cycle as much as we have this for me.

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Yeah, I mean the side effect of just just just having this session, it's actually all the pre stuff that it forces to happen right, I can see it I mean I looked at the notion doc that you sent and I said you guys are, this is, I mean this is already a

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very good start you know just from from the extra prep.

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That's good. It's like either it's going to be like, you know, seven or eight out of 10, or he's, he's going to say like it's it's we're at, you know, one or two out of 10 and we're going to be missing it all these years.

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So that's a lot to learn. Obviously like everyone here we've read the book read gone through this we've been like using shape up in projects for a few years.

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So, obviously we want to refine that figure out like how can we get better at it. This is such a core piece of our business I think we talked about this last time like we're essentially selling weeks of shaped work is our is what we're selling.

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So the more concrete we can make this it's not just, you know, yes it's more peaceful for the team more clear for the client but like it literally changes.

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You know, profit margins that changes like so much of the business is on like how well we can shape and estimate.

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And then, so this is, this is why we're investing the time, bringing you in of course all of us prepping and jumping on. But, yeah, we've got Lucian's our lead developer.

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He's been with us the longest.

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He's been shaping and he was, I think, I think Lucian you were around when we first read shape up together, and we said okay I think this is the thing.

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Maybe that was like right before you came I can't remember.

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Maybe a little after, yeah.

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But the only other, and then Jonathan is in here in Brazil he's basically he's leading all of our mobile, most of our mobile app development and we have a JavaScript kind of side and then we've got Flutter side of things.

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And, and then Macy is my EA and she's also running all of our support and marketing so I just wanted her to be in here as well just to kind of hear how we're shaping things because she's also communicating a lot with clients who are like that intake

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of like the first initial call where we kind of figure out what they need and then we'll go and shape after that so I kind of want to see the process of how, how like how the word using it from a product and development team, and then how to best prepare

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for that.

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The only other person is is Chris Chan who's our chief product officer, and he's kind of running all of our custom dev projects.

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He unfortunately is closing on a house today so, which is okay, but he was just couldn't, we couldn't make it work.

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He's running you're running your custom dev projects meaning the stuff that's outside of this kind of tribe product.

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Uh huh. Right, yeah.

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So it's all the same, it's all the same people kind of doing tribe, and this so this is a great sample. And you said Chris is running that you mean like from a technical standpoint or from a more of a PM standpoint or yeah PM, I would say, and kind of understood

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like a, like a fractional product person like officer for that client essentially because all of our clients typically tend to be non technical, you know they're running totally different types of businesses and then we're, we're kind of being their entire

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tech, tech team.

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Got it.

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we're calling it a product team, less dev team, but yeah.

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And was it Jonata?

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Oh, Jonata.

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Jonata, sorry, Jonata.

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So Jonata, I heard mobile and Flutter,

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is there a mix of different things in your tech stack

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right now when it comes to mobile?

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Is it all Flutter?

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It's all Flutter.

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Uh-huh, got it, okay.

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And is there also mobile web,

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or is it just like desktop web and Flutter?

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There's a mobile web, yeah.

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The, well, no, let me take that back.

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There will be.

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Right now there is a,

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sorry, you can use the mobile web right now.

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It is on Flutter.

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Everything our customer sees is Flutter right now.

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The original backend,

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what we're spending more of our time investing in now

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is the JavaScript React Node.js side of our tech stack.

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That's the thing we've been building for the longest time.

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We will continue to use Flutter

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maybe for Android and iOS moving forward,

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but we haven't quite, so we're kind of spinning,

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one of the big projects is basically spinning up

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a new version of the web

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to sort of replace the web on Flutter.

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I see.

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Just because it's,

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there's literally two domains and all that.

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So that was that first project,

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which we can skip over for today.

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It was more for context.

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Yep.

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Sort of the bigger vision of the next few months, but.

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Uh-huh, got it, okay.

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And,

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okay, that's, okay, good, very good.

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So that's good for context.

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I want to try to set a little bit of expectations

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around kind of what we're gonna try and do

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in this shaping session.

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And so,

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when Bruce and I talked,

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the super distilled TLDR of like kind of

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what I think we're trying to work on here

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is how to kind of improve the matching

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between like we said, this was the appetite

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and then this was how much time we actually spent.

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And a lot of times that gets kind of painted

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as like,

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there's something is going wrong on the dev side

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or like the engineers aren't moving fast enough

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or blah, blah, blah, you know?

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And our way of looking at that,

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as you probably already know,

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it's not that,

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it's a fit question between two things.

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You know what I mean?

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We like, we said this was the size of the box

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and then this is what fit into the box

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or it broke through and it didn't fit into the box, right?

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And both of these things are actually variables, right?

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Like the amount of time that we actually negotiate

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is the appetite, is a variable,

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and there is like a learning curve

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to kind of figuring out how do we set that

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and when do we negotiate that

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and what do we really need?

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And then what's actually in the box,

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like the solution that we shape,

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then there's a whole piece of like,

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how much are we actually looking at that

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in enough detail in advance

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so that it doesn't come as a big surprise

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when we're getting to the end of the time

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we thought we were gonna spend,

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you know, that it turns out to be more complicated

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or there were hidden dangers or time bombs

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or things blowing up, you know?

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So it's kind of like there's both of these aspects

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and you can think of the shaping work,

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on the one hand, you know,

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like we're very focused on,

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we wanna, of course,

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like the ultimate outcome of the shaping

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is we wanna have that really clear picture

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of what it is that we're gonna go do

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so that solution concept

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so that when we start building,

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we know we can kind of hit the ground running

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and we know what we're doing

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and we have good answers for everything.

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But a different way of looking at what's happening

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in the shaping session

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is it's all just about trying to find the right match,

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you know?

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It's like, it's more like car shopping

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than it is like design.

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It's like, you know what I mean?

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Like we've got all these

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and it's more like shopping for an apartment, you know?

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Like we've got these like budget,

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we've got these requirements

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and it's like, ah, maybe we could do this.

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That's a little bit, can't quite afford that,

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but maybe this,

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oh, I don't really wanna make that trade off.

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Okay, you know this.

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So a little bit more of this kind of horse trading thing.

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The, there are, okay,

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so that's kind of what I wanna,

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what we're gonna get into.

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The biggest area

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where we often kind of see trouble in the shaping phase

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is not enough detail

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or way, way, way too much of the wrong surface detail.

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And I can see that you guys are already

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on a pretty good track in the right direction on this

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with the pre-work that you did.

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The bad cases that we often see on the extreme ends of the spectrum are like the shaping is way, way, way too fuzzy.

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So it's like we need group DMs and here's why we need them.

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The project starts tomorrow, right?

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And kind of figure it out.

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And maybe you guys have been there in the past.

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So that's kind of the undershaped version.

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And the overshaped version or the version where there's too much of the wrong detail is the super detailed perfect Figma file that doesn't actually answer to the fact that this is built on top of an old template that we inherited and it has architectural issues.

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Or there's a use case that there's going to be some really hard tradeoffs around the use case and they might impact our decision about the schema, how we handle that use case.

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Those are the kind of things that you don't see in a Figma file, right?

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So in order to kind of – and you guys did a pretty good job at what I see in the Notion document is there's already some technical things being sketched out.

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There's a sense of how it works today.

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There's some idea of how it's going to work in the future.

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So what we're going to be doing in order to – the thing that I can't – so here's the sort of starting point, okay?

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The thing that I can't immediately see is I can't really see yes, this definitely clicks into a one-week appetite, which is what's written there.

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And so what I would like us – I think our kind of goal here is to get to a place where we're looking at the concept of what to go do and we're looking at that time and we're all like clearly that's doable.

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You know what I mean?

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That's good.

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Yeah.

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So that's – if you take one thing away from today, like that's what the shaping is about is getting to that point, right?

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Because anything that's kind of like yeah, but there is this one unknown, that one thing, man, that's the thing that takes a week by itself, right?

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You know what I mean?

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And then you're into two weeks, three weeks, four weeks.

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And especially for you guys with the kind of length of project that you're talking about, you know, the difference between one and two weeks, I mean, that's a 2X difference.

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So you really feel that, right, in these kind of smaller things that you're trying to really nail like that, okay?

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So – and the way that we're going to go into this is I'm going to be basically prompting you guys for more detail and more concreteness on the technical side so that we can kind of surface those things.

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Macy, one of the takeaways that teams often start to come to when we do these kind of shaping sessions is a reaction of like oh, shaping is way more deeply technical than I kind of expected.

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And Bruce and I have talked a little bit about framing versus shaping where framing is more like, you know, what is the definition of like what's going wrong?

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Why are we doing this?

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What's going to be better?

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Why do people care?

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All that stuff wrapped around.

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And Bruce, when you were describing kind of this – when you were doing the introduction, you know, like Macy, it sounds like that framing piece is actually a little bit like in many ways closer to what you want to know, right, like for marketing.

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Like this is – sort of there's a million details, but this is why it matters and this is why you care and this is what we want to highlight when we're explaining it or that kind of a thing.

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Does that sound right?

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Yeah.

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So, okay, so that's just – yeah, so I just wanted to – I wanted to set that out there in the beginning just so that you don't feel that we're on a sidetrack when we basically spend the whole time in the weeds on technical things.

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You know what I mean?

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This is more what's happening in the shaping room.

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We may find ourselves – or we often do, especially on bigger projects, flipping over into the framing side because all of a sudden it's like, well, wait a minute.

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Maybe this does deserve more time, but then how do we judge that and what would it mean?

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And you know what I mean?

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Like would people actually value it?

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Would it be worth it?

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And then all of a sudden we're having the framing conversation.

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So that can happen.

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But we're going to – if we do that, I mean I'm going to be labeling that very clearly so that we notice that and we see those as different conversations, okay?

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Yeah, that's actually super helpful because we – everything is shaping like right now.

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So it's like whether you're doing a mock-up, talking to a client, like we just did a three-hour shaping – we call it a shaping meeting to kick off like this brand new client work project yesterday.

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And there was actually no shaping involved, I would say.

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It's like framing I think is a better word.

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And we've not differentiated between those two steps, so that's actually really helpful because we –

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Cause we have the, the client layer, there's this like deep connection of

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like kind of understanding the real problem and, oh, yeah, yeah.

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Even more so because there's bigger consequences to kind of not being aligned.

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Right.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So all that alignment around like, what's the problem?

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What's the opportunity?

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Why now?

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What's it worth?

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Like, that's the, that's the framing piece.

228
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And I think it'll, it'll be easier to start to untangle those, the

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more technical shaping feels, because then you'll be like, oh, clearly

230
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this is a different conversation versus when shaping is a little bit less

231
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technical and a little bit more about like, what are the outcomes we want

232
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on the product side, you know, they feel very similar.

233
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Yeah.

234
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And, and practical question.

235
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Is this kind of like, like the tactics, do you see this as like, is one

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document for the framing and another, or is it version 0.1 is the, the framing

237
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and then it kind of gets big, it grows once we shape it like the same document.

238
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So this is something, um, uh, that we can, um, we can come back to because

239
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there's so many different ways of doing it and it depends a little bit

240
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on, on your structure and, and, and your, your workflow with the client

241
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or with, and, and stuff like that.

242
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But I'll give you a short answer.

243
00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:18.640
So the, the short answer is, um, the, there is a step that shaping

244
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is going to start to feel probably already feels more expensive to

245
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you than it did before doing all this prep, right?

246
00:16:24.520 --> 00:16:28.080
So there's going to be more and more of this feeling of like, we don't want

247
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to actually do all that shaping work unless we're pretty sure that this

248
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is something that matters, right?

249
00:16:33.520 --> 00:16:36.520
So there's, so what you're going to feel is that there's going to be this

250
00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:41.320
kind of natural gate appearing, you know, of like, we ready to kick

251
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this over into the shaping phase.

252
00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:44.000
Right.

253
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.520
And so then what is the thing that you look at when you make that decision?

254
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Right.

255
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.200
That's going to be sort of the, your, the V1 of whatever framing that you did.

256
00:16:53.200 --> 00:17:02.600
Um, I, um, in, in bigger teams or, you know, the framing can become a bigger

257
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thing because if you have to advocate for spending six weeks on something

258
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or 12 weeks on something or whatever, then you might, you might have, you

259
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might have to build up a really big, long, clear case around something.

260
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What I find is that, um, in practice, especially in a smaller org, the framing,

261
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.839
it's more like this running conversation that's happening at the decision-making

262
00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:24.119
level, you know what I mean?

263
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.400
So like you have a few things in your head and you all kind of keep coming

264
00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.960
back to like, maybe this, maybe that, Oh, but I'm not sure if that's real yet.

265
00:17:32.120 --> 00:17:33.840
Let's do a little bit more digging into that.

266
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Or we need to have another follow-up conversation with the client about that.

267
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You know, it's kind of like this, it's just like, it's, it's basically

268
00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:44.720
like the sales process, you know, it's this conversation that keeps going

269
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.680
and getting a little bit clearer and clearer until you're like, ding, we got it.

270
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Like, this is something we're willing to, to, to invest into.

271
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.720
So like Bruce, like our conversations before we, um, had this session

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today, that was all framing, you know?

273
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And then it was a little bit of shaping at the last minute of like, okay,

274
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here's option a, B and C that was the shaping side, right?

275
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Like it could look like this, it could look like that.

276
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Right.

277
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But the framing piece was like, this is what we're trying to solve.

278
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This is what's going wrong.

279
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This is why now this is the budget range, you know, that kind of a thing.

280
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That's good.

281
00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:19.160
And we have, I'm even just thinking on a practical note, like our

282
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statuses of new things coming in.

283
00:18:22.120 --> 00:18:26.040
Um, it's just like, we have inbox, like, Hey, this thing got brought up in a

284
00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:29.680
meeting, we're just going to stick it on this inbox, it's not backlog.

285
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It's called just, it doesn't mean we're doing it.

286
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It just means we've noted it.

287
00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.560
Um, and then what I'm thinking we may, and then we go, right.

288
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The next step is shaping.

289
00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.600
So I remember there's like a step, like a framing step where like, Hey,

290
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they mentioned this thing.

291
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It needs to be framed.

292
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Let's do another call.

293
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:45.400
Let's figure this out.

294
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Let's like work this little thing out.

295
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And then I think, cause I'm almost seeing like us then taking the

296
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framing list to the clients.

297
00:18:52.280 --> 00:18:52.840
I mean, okay.

298
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We think it's these three things, you know, whatever, like now we shape it.

299
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Then we, then we, you know, move to get it.

300
00:18:58.960 --> 00:18:59.720
Exactly.

301
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Building.

302
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:01.120
So exactly.

303
00:19:01.120 --> 00:19:01.360
Yeah.

304
00:19:01.360 --> 00:19:06.240
The framing piece is like the weighing of like, it's, it's, it's what people

305
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:10.360
call prioritizing actually, you know, it's the weighing of this versus that,

306
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.160
you know, like, is this real?

307
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.360
Is it more real than the other thing?

308
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Is it more timely than the other thing?

309
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.640
According to what else is going on?

310
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Is this going to feel like a bigger win than the other thing?

311
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You know what I mean?

312
00:19:21.840 --> 00:19:22.560
All those things.

313
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.480
So, yeah, that, that I, and I like your, I like the way that you put that

314
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.600
to that, there's like, there's the raw thing that comes in and then it's like,

315
00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:37.440
okay, if we're going to invest our dear time into this, then there's a framing

316
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.960
step that has to happen to justify the investment.

317
00:19:40.360 --> 00:19:42.960
And if it's somehow just not even the right time, then maybe you can sit

318
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.800
around and we can build that case later, you know, perfect.

319
00:19:46.040 --> 00:19:46.720
That's helpful.

320
00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:47.240
Awesome.

321
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:48.640
Okay, good.

322
00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.720
Um, uh, let's see.

323
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.120
Bruce shared a file in the, yeah, right.

324
00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:55.080
These are the statuses.

325
00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:55.720
Exactly.

326
00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:55.960
Yeah.

327
00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:56.160
Yeah.

328
00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.000
So you think of this more like two, two kind of loops.

329
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:05.000
There's a preliminary framing loop of, are we going to invest in this or not?

330
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.840
And then if yes, then we get to a point of, this is the time box that's coming up and

331
00:20:08.840 --> 00:20:10.720
this is what we're shaping for.

332
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:16.800
So we're shaping now because group DMs is something that you decided was important,

333
00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:18.300
and it won out over the other things.

334
00:20:18.300 --> 00:20:20.760
We even had that in the email exchange leading up to this.

335
00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:24.800
You sent me the Notion doc with the five things, and I said, OK, if we're actually going to

336
00:20:24.800 --> 00:20:28.000
shape something, what's the thing that's most important, and you identified DMs.

337
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.680
So that was kind of like a little bit of further framing here.

338
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:33.680
Good.

339
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:34.680
OK.

340
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.440
And this one has a little bit of front end and a little back end.

341
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:44.080
The other evergreen one is, we could talk about it a little bit, but it's Zapier and

342
00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:46.400
automations and back end API stuff.

343
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:51.120
So we still definitely could dig into it, but if there's time.

344
00:20:51.120 --> 00:20:54.240
But yeah, I think this one's a little bit more of a better example of a new feature

345
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:58.560
that is actually customer facing, that more users are going to use.

346
00:20:58.560 --> 00:20:59.560
Yeah.

347
00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:05.440
But I will say for the evergreen thing, it's fine if we don't cover it, but when you were

348
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:11.120
talking about we go deep in the technical, I felt like there was a piece of that project

349
00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:17.640
that was a bit of an unknown, that we left the decision as part of the project and not

350
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:24.120
we spent more time in the shaping for that unknown technical thing.

351
00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:26.560
Yeah, that's good.

352
00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:33.080
So let's start with DM and let's keep in mind, we're going to feel out how quickly we sort

353
00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:35.800
of hit the bottom of it.

354
00:21:35.800 --> 00:21:40.840
And if we kind of hit the bottom of it quickly and we can get to that point of like, yes,

355
00:21:40.840 --> 00:21:46.720
this matches the time, let's move on, then we can switch to evergreen.

356
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:53.080
Or we can talk about which one you guys want to take, that could be an option.

357
00:21:53.080 --> 00:21:57.360
The other thing is that based on what we do, what I would like is for you to have some

358
00:21:57.360 --> 00:22:03.560
ideas of, okay, if we were to run a session, like let's say for evergreen, like the session

359
00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:09.480
we just had, let's see if we can kind of repeat what we saw in that session, right?

360
00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:10.480
And then try to do that.

361
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.120
That could be kind of a cool, kind of like a homework thing also, but we'll see where

362
00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:20.800
we go once we start digging into DMs.

363
00:22:20.800 --> 00:22:25.080
So what I would like to do is just kind of like, I just want to jump straight into the

364
00:22:25.080 --> 00:22:27.960
middle of the work here, okay?

365
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.160
Any other kind of preliminary questions or are you guys ready for that?

366
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:32.760
No, I think that's good, yeah.

367
00:22:32.760 --> 00:22:37.520
Just poke at it if you want to share your screen or ask or just walk through it or point

368
00:22:37.520 --> 00:22:39.840
things out.

369
00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:42.880
We did invite you to the Notion thing as well if you need to.

370
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.440
Yeah, so I have that up and I reviewed that.

371
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:50.160
I have, I'm giving you guys access to a Miro board.

372
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:54.720
I just sent a link and you should be able to join that without any user accounts or

373
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.680
any kind of fuss.

374
00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:02.080
And because I think we might end up needing to look at not only my screen, but one of

375
00:23:02.080 --> 00:23:06.560
your screens in order to start to answer some of these things.

376
00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:11.040
So I'm just going to get us started here.

377
00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:17.520
I'm going to share my screen and I'm going to pull up the Miro.

378
00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:24.600
And the key thing of a shaping session is, so what I'm trying to do is give you not very

379
00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:28.120
much theory and introduction and just, we're just going to dive in and do the work together.

380
00:23:28.120 --> 00:23:34.840
But the one kind of like sort of theory piece of the shaping session is the documents are

381
00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:40.920
good as an artifact of what happened when we need to like easily be able to remember

382
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:42.720
it or share it with other people.

383
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.240
But I find that like the actual work of shaping happens best on a whiteboard.

384
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:53.360
And so this is the closest, this is the, I just reached for a whiteboard here with Miro.

385
00:23:53.360 --> 00:24:00.120
And I've got, I've got the, I've got what you did here open and I actually did read

386
00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:01.120
through it.

387
00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:04.640
So I have like some sense of what's here.

388
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:09.920
And I think if you refresh it one more time, I did in the five minutes before this meeting,

389
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.760
just through like a couple extra, there you go, I think that's your, yes, there you go.

390
00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:18.160
There's just a little V0 mockup and a few other things in there in the sketch, but yeah,

391
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:19.160
let's go.

392
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:20.160
Uh-huh.

393
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:21.160
Good.

394
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:22.160
Okay.

395
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.840
V0 mockup.

396
00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:29.960
So is this, ah, this is actually opening something.

397
00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:34.360
Yes, this was, this is kind of how we prototype.

398
00:24:34.360 --> 00:24:40.920
We've been leveraging the, of course, AI to do rapid prototypes in the shaping portion.

399
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.920
Because it's one thing I did is I did this and then I realized there's two or three other

400
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:49.880
bullets that we didn't talk about, some problems to solve.

401
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:54.720
But, uh, so this was just as we were like thinking out, basically gave it a screenshot

402
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.520
of what it looks like today, plus the new features.

403
00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.000
And so it added, um, this little button to

404
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.360
top right where we can basically kick off a new conversation.

405
00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:11.040
Uh-huh, okay. So what I'm going to do in the quickest way possible is give us a little bit

406
00:25:11.040 --> 00:25:17.520
of a common baseline for the session of what is the today version of this, how does chat work today,

407
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:24.720
and then we can use that to understand what changes or what are cases that we're not

408
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.480
thinking of or whatever. So I just want to give us a little bit of concreteness around what chat

409
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:34.240
looks like today. When we're doing shaping, I usually have a little bit of a template here.

410
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:44.800
We are not going to worry about framing until if we come back to it, but the one thing I'm

411
00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:54.960
just going to call out here is that we had one week as the appetite, right? Yeah, one or two

412
00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:02.080
weeks since we are the client in this case. Uh-huh. Well, I would probably imagine that

413
00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:09.520
from the standpoint of the builders, one and two feel very different. Yeah. So let's,

414
00:26:10.560 --> 00:26:17.680
so does that, Bruce, could I interpret that as like two is a max, like three feels like too

415
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.000
much, but two you feel comfortable with? Something like that, yeah. I mean, we're,

416
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:28.720
because this is our own project and I'm where it's, this is what the bootstrapped product inside

417
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.400
this, we're always trying to be as lean as possible. So if we can get a version of it out,

418
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:38.800
that's functional, but if we have more time, we do work pretty fast. So Janata and Lucha and I

419
00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:44.160
shaped all of this on Wednesday. So when we're done with this, Janata is going to be the one

420
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:47.680
building it. So it'll be very, it's very simple. He's got it. We don't have to do a bunch of

421
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:52.640
knowledge transfer downstream to like someone else. This is like, this is the team that's,

422
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:59.840
you know, framing, shaping, and building all at the same time. Got it. Okay. Um, so I want to see

423
00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:07.200
if I just understand this, that, that the, um, you have, you have a screenshot of the current version.

424
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:14.640
Yeah. Right there on the right. Sorry. On the right here. Yeah. So this is one of what it looks

425
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:21.360
like today. Okay, good. Let me just, let me just drop this in here. Um, so this is what it looks

426
00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:30.400
like today on desktop. And, um, how do I start a new VM today? So there's, I just put two screenshots

427
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:36.880
above that one. Um, uh, let's see. Yeah. So that's, yeah, they're this one. So there's, you can either

428
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.360
starting conversation isn't easy, so you can only do it in these two ways. You can either click on

429
00:27:41.360 --> 00:27:47.920
someone's profile and then open a chat with that person. Ah, so from profile. Okay. So I'm, I'm just

430
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:57.760
going to breadboard this real quick. Yep. Um, from, from profile. So you can open somebody's profile

431
00:27:57.760 --> 00:28:04.960
and then from there, there is a, there's, there's other stuff and then there's a, uh, open chat

432
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:10.560
button. Okay. And profile, I'm just coloring this. This is just a little breadboarding convention.

433
00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:14.720
This is the place we are in the, in the app. And then this is like the stuff that we see when we're

434
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:25.440
there. Okay. Um, let me just, uh, okay. So, um, and when I, when we hit open chat, where does that take

435
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:32.480
us here? That basically takes you to the, this, the second screen, uh, which is, yeah, what you've got

436
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:38.320
on the left there of your, uh, this, uh, it takes us to this thing. Yes. So I'd now be talking to

437
00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:45.920
that, you know, that person now, does this thing have a name? Uh, we call it the, like, it's more

438
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:51.040
like a, uh, profile pop-up or something. It's kind of like a quick little modal dialogue that just

439
00:28:51.040 --> 00:28:56.880
pops up. Sorry. Does, I mean, I meant, is this, this place. So when I click open chat, this is

440
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:04.000
just the DM screen, like your chat, your chat screen. Uh, so this is the, you, you, so you call

441
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.560
it the DM screen. Okay. Yeah. It has an official name. Oh, user. Yeah. User profile doll there.

442
00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:13.120
Janata's got the official. Um, what's the thing? We just call it a DM. I don't think there's a,

443
00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:16.960
yeah, I like, I like, I, I like to err on the side of what you actually call it, you know,

444
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:22.560
so that way we know what we're, what we're referring to. Um, and then, um, in the DM screen,

445
00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:29.360
um, I'm not, I'm not just on the DM screen, but like, there's some like state, like, like the,

446
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:35.120
the, the person that I'm talking to is somehow like, am I like navigated to them in the DM screen?

447
00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:43.040
Yeah. So we would start a new chat. Yeah, exactly. Um, if I wanted to talk to Chris, uh, if I tapped

448
00:29:43.040 --> 00:29:48.880
open chat on Chris's profile, um, I would be now in this, this view, right? You see here.

449
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.480
And when I'm on the D when I'm on the chat or the DM screen, I'm always looking at a person. There's

450
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:59.920
no such thing as looking at the screen and not having a person selected. Correct.

451
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.480
It's kind of like one by default.

452
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:08.000
It's very similar to iMessage on Mac.

453
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.840
Like when you open iMessage, it's

454
00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:12.160
your last person you talk to is there.

455
00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:22.200
So then we have a kind of a, what do you call this?

456
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.920
Like there's a sort of navigation.

457
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.600
There's like a list of conversations.

458
00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:29.200
Yeah, conversations is good.

459
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.480
Yeah, I think it's called, I think

460
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:35.080
we call it conversations there, the top 12 conversation.

461
00:30:35.080 --> 00:30:40.160
And this person is like selected or kind of current or?

462
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.840
Yeah, that's who you have open, yeah.

463
00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:49.640
Now, this is worth mentioning because you're

464
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:51.000
kind of putting different parts.

465
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.080
But of course, on mobile, you just see the left side.

466
00:30:55.080 --> 00:30:56.400
So you just see your list.

467
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.600
So these kind of break into two views, right?

468
00:30:58.600 --> 00:31:01.840
So like I click, I would see a list of just people.

469
00:31:01.840 --> 00:31:03.480
And then I would click Chris.

470
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.800
And then my next screen would be just the chat.

471
00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:09.360
I'm not seeing a sidebar on my phone.

472
00:31:09.360 --> 00:31:10.080
That's good.

473
00:31:10.080 --> 00:31:12.240
So these are actually kind of like different places.

474
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.520
There's the chat.

475
00:31:14.520 --> 00:31:16.920
And there's the conversation list.

476
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:18.160
Yeah, sure.

477
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.200
And then it happens to be that on desktop,

478
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.680
these are the same actually, right?

479
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.960
So like on desktop, we have like the DM screen,

480
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.440
which has the conversation list.

481
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:34.560
And then we have the current chat.

482
00:31:34.560 --> 00:31:41.120
OK, and then there was one other way

483
00:31:41.120 --> 00:31:45.520
that we got to a new chat, which was from this

484
00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:48.560
is just from searching inside the conversations list.

485
00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:49.080
Right.

486
00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:49.840
Yeah, it's the top.

487
00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:52.280
I think there's a search box at the top of that screen.

488
00:31:52.280 --> 00:31:53.080
Got it.

489
00:31:53.080 --> 00:31:54.520
Yeah, that's the search box here.

490
00:31:54.520 --> 00:31:55.040
Got it.

491
00:31:55.040 --> 00:31:55.720
OK, good.

492
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:57.480
OK, fine.

493
00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:08.520
And so that also means from the conversation list,

494
00:32:08.520 --> 00:32:19.600
so I'm just on the conversation list, there is a search field.

495
00:32:19.600 --> 00:32:23.280
And if I actually search for somebody,

496
00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:25.600
this is actually going to kind of like take me here.

497
00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:26.640
And it's going to update.

498
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:27.960
It's going to filter this, right?

499
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:29.480
It's going to kind of filter this.

500
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:31.000
Actually, I'm just going to do this.

501
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:32.880
I'm just going to say filter.

502
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.360
The reason I'm calling this out is because I don't know

503
00:32:35.360 --> 00:32:41.000
is if this feature is going to behave differently,

504
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.200
if it's going to need to get consideration.

505
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.240
I don't know if it's in the current scope or not.

506
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.000
You know what I mean?

507
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:48.760
So when we look at group DMs, we want

508
00:32:48.760 --> 00:32:53.640
to be able to look through all of this and say,

509
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.360
are all of these things accounted for or not?

510
00:32:56.360 --> 00:32:57.720
OK, good.

511
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.440
OK, simple enough.

512
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:04.960
So we come back here to what you have.

513
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.000
So the idea is that you're going to have a new affordance to,

514
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.440
you're going to be able to, you're

515
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:12.840
going to have a new way to start a conversation.

516
00:33:17.600 --> 00:33:19.440
So where does this appear?

517
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.560
This appears, this is what you meant to show here?

518
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:24.960
Yeah, and let me grab my pen.

519
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:29.200
So like right here, if you would tap,

520
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:30.960
I looked at like for design reference.

521
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:32.560
So this is something new.

522
00:33:32.560 --> 00:33:33.240
OK, good.

523
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.560
Yeah, so this would be basically I added as a new.

524
00:33:36.560 --> 00:33:40.680
So the search, so I think we kind of try to do two things.

525
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.400
This is sort of like built badly the first time,

526
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.120
and the people who built this aren't here,

527
00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:47.960
so we can call it what it is.

528
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:50.520
But we kind of use a template initially.

529
00:33:50.560 --> 00:33:53.840
So this search feature was kind of hacked a little bit.

530
00:33:53.840 --> 00:33:56.640
Like search to me is like search what's below.

531
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.400
Like I have these 12 conversations,

532
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:00.120
I want to search the 12 conversations.

533
00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:03.200
What it turned into, for whatever reason,

534
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.840
is it searches every user in the entire database

535
00:34:05.840 --> 00:34:09.239
to start a new conversation, which is not intuitive at all.

536
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:10.320
Aha, OK.

537
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.199
So it's kind of, so that's where I thought really

538
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:15.080
the preferred way would be.

539
00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:19.400
And I looked at, if you look at the Notion doc,

540
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:22.080
I looked at below, you could see there's

541
00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:27.840
Slack as a design reference, and then also iMessage right there.

542
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:32.400
So in Slack, you would hit a new message,

543
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:37.040
and then I would select like two or three people,

544
00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:38.880
and then start chatting with those people.

545
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.120
And then the same thing would happen here on iMessage.

546
00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:43.440
I could choose three people.

547
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.960
So this kind of mirrors that a little bit

548
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:50.800
by hitting the new, kind of lets you start a new conversation.

549
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.600
And that way, I can start it with one person,

550
00:34:52.600 --> 00:34:56.400
but now I can also, of course, start with multiple people.

551
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:57.680
I see.

552
00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:00.840
And is it?

553
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.960
But it doesn't replace search.

554
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:04.400
So is search different because it's for filtering things

555
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:05.440
that you already have?

556
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:05.940
Or?

557
00:35:09.080 --> 00:35:11.240
I think the, yeah, I didn't write this down

558
00:35:11.240 --> 00:35:13.360
and this is a good catch, but yes, I

559
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:17.240
think search should be changed to just filter,

560
00:35:17.240 --> 00:35:20.040
to be a true filter.

561
00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:23.080
Search should be changed to be a true filter.

562
00:35:23.080 --> 00:35:23.720
Good, OK.

563
00:35:23.720 --> 00:35:27.720
So we're already starting to expose some stuff here.

564
00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:32.880
And what I'm doing here is, OK, we're

565
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:35.400
going to have a little game on and game off here,

566
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.960
like when you're playing in the street as a kid.

567
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.720
OK, so game off.

568
00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:42.440
What I've been doing up until this point,

569
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:44.560
it might seem boring that I'm documenting

570
00:35:44.560 --> 00:35:46.000
what you already have.

571
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.560
But what happened was, by looking

572
00:35:48.560 --> 00:35:51.000
at the difference between what's already there

573
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.920
and what you think you want to be doing,

574
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:56.240
we're surfacing additional scope or additional requirements.

575
00:35:56.240 --> 00:35:59.160
And these things normally only come up much later, right?

576
00:35:59.160 --> 00:36:03.480
So that's why I have, we're looking at how it works today

577
00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:04.900
and we're kind of documenting that.

578
00:36:04.900 --> 00:36:08.000
And we just bumped into already something,

579
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:13.320
which is a piece of what you want the new scope to be,

580
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:16.920
that we brought that to the surface.

581
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.440
So what I'm doing just to capture that,

582
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.880
I have, there's a million ways to do this.

583
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.160
But what I'm just going to do right now is I'm just

584
00:36:25.160 --> 00:36:29.480
going to have, this is like version A of the new scope

585
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:31.280
of what we're going to do.

586
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:32.880
So this is new stuff, OK?

587
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:36.000
So this is like, if these are alternate Git branches,

588
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:37.320
this is like main.

589
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.840
And now this is like new DM branch A, OK?

590
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:43.160
And I'm just going to stick this sticky in here

591
00:36:43.160 --> 00:36:45.760
and I'm going to call it like, I'm just making a,

592
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:47.920
I'm not even breadboarding or designing anything.

593
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:52.120
I'm just going to say like, search becomes filter.

594
00:36:52.120 --> 00:36:55.120
I want to capture that.

595
00:36:55.120 --> 00:36:56.280
I don't know what to do with it yet

596
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:57.960
and I don't want to like sidetrack us with it yet,

597
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.600
but I want to capture that because that's part of this.

598
00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:06.080
And then we can come back and decide if that's

599
00:37:06.080 --> 00:37:08.520
really important or not if it starts to expand

600
00:37:08.520 --> 00:37:10.080
the timeline of things, right?

601
00:37:10.080 --> 00:37:15.920
So search today, does it do more, is it already a filter?

602
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.200
Is it just a question of renaming it?

603
00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:21.040
Is it just a question of putting the word filter on it

604
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:21.840
instead of search?

605
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.720
Or does it actually behave differently today?

606
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.080
It's actually is searching, doing a proper query

607
00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:31.880
and searching the entire database today,

608
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:35.960
which it should, it feels confusing, maybe.

609
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:36.680
What is it doing?

610
00:37:36.680 --> 00:37:38.760
It's searching for users, not for conversations,

611
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.800
which is what's being shown on the list, which

612
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:43.720
is an important solution.

613
00:37:43.720 --> 00:37:44.560
OK.

614
00:37:44.560 --> 00:37:46.160
That's a good summary, yeah.

615
00:37:46.160 --> 00:37:47.560
Is that fine?

616
00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:49.440
I understand it's kind of a little bit gross,

617
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:50.360
but like, is it fine?

618
00:37:55.720 --> 00:37:56.240
It's not.

619
00:37:56.240 --> 00:38:00.800
I mean, users didn't complain, I believe.

620
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.960
I don't know.

621
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:06.160
I think, yeah, it's a good point because we can always

622
00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:09.680
make things more clear and better.

623
00:38:09.680 --> 00:38:13.280
I think, OK, maybe again, thinking

624
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.800
through our process here, some back story

625
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:18.040
is like so much of our app in the beginning

626
00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:20.680
when we had never built our own app before.

627
00:38:20.680 --> 00:38:24.120
So it was pure function over form.

628
00:38:24.120 --> 00:38:28.760
And so our CMS is literally like a mirror image of what's

629
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:29.880
happening in the database.

630
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:31.480
We have content table in the database.

631
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:32.960
There's a content page.

632
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:35.680
It's very engineered.

633
00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:39.240
There was no design thoughtfulness

634
00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:40.120
through the process.

635
00:38:40.120 --> 00:38:42.720
So we're just sensitive to things

636
00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:47.440
that feel hacky that we may understand or we could use,

637
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:52.720
but is not intuitive if my mom is using this app, for example.

638
00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:56.000
So just maybe that would work.

639
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.600
And most, for context, almost all of our end users

640
00:38:59.600 --> 00:39:03.320
are coming from Facebook, for example.

641
00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:08.200
As long as it feels familiar to them, that would be helpful.

642
00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:13.320
And so maybe belaboring the point, that's kind of, yeah,

643
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.000
it definitely doesn't have to stay.

644
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.480
If it's one of those things where we're

645
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:19.480
trying to hammer the scope down into one week,

646
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.360
then that may be the thing that we just leave.

647
00:39:23.120 --> 00:39:25.120
So this raises a question for me,

648
00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:28.240
which is that if in the current version,

649
00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:30.240
so I'm marking an issue in the current version,

650
00:39:30.240 --> 00:39:33.160
it's querying users and not conversations,

651
00:39:33.160 --> 00:39:35.960
then what I'm fast forwarding in my mind

652
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:39.600
right now to if DMs are in the conversation list,

653
00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:46.880
if group DMs, sorry, if group DMs go into the conversation

654
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:51.120
list because they are considered a conversation in the model,

655
00:39:51.120 --> 00:39:54.280
and now I have a group DM somewhere,

656
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:56.680
but I don't see it because it's below the fold,

657
00:39:56.680 --> 00:40:01.160
and now I start typing, it's not going to show up because.

658
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.720
Cause it's, it's, it's, it's, it's querying something else.

659
00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:03.080
Right.

660
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.760
So, so, so, so, so, so now it starts to feel a little bit more like it might

661
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.760
be an experience issue for group DMS.

662
00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:11.680
Okay.

663
00:40:12.200 --> 00:40:13.920
That, that was a good way to back into that.

664
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.080
Uh, that's smart.

665
00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:16.280
Yeah.

666
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:22.920
Because yeah, if you search, uh, if you search on your phone and you, you

667
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.840
have like renamed a conversation, like a family group chat or chat or something,

668
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:29.560
Assuming I'm searching the list that's below.

669
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:30.480
Right.

670
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:36.040
And like I said, if we're now querying users, this group, the M doesn't exist

671
00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:38.360
because there's no user with that name.

672
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.320
So that's, yeah.

673
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:44.520
So this, I would qualify this as our first time bomb that we've caught here.

674
00:40:44.560 --> 00:40:47.760
This is something that would actually manifest as an experience issue

675
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:48.880
that we would care about.

676
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.040
It sounds like, um, it's not just a refactoring of like, oh, it would be

677
00:40:54.040 --> 00:40:56.120
better if we implemented that in a different way.

678
00:40:56.720 --> 00:41:03.200
Um, so, um, when I go down here to search becomes filter, it's like, okay,

679
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:06.880
it's, it's not a question of renaming the placeholder label on a field.

680
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:12.480
Um, it kind of sounds like search in conversation list.

681
00:41:12.520 --> 00:41:13.920
So I'm actually going to do this.

682
00:41:15.120 --> 00:41:17.760
We're to the point where I can just grab something.

683
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.320
So, um, we have this thing called conversation list, which

684
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:22.720
is going to continue to exist.

685
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:30.280
Um, but we're in, we're in alternate future A here.

686
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:30.680
Okay.

687
00:41:31.560 --> 00:41:38.320
And let's say that this, this should query conversations, not users.

688
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.960
And this is actually about filtering the list, right?

689
00:41:45.600 --> 00:41:52.920
So, um, then if that was the case that would be solved, um, we have a tool, um,

690
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:56.200
that I would usually reach for in this case, and I'm just going to do it.

691
00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:00.000
I don't want to waste your time by teaching you a million tools when we're,

692
00:42:00.080 --> 00:42:02.800
when we're, I'd rather just demo the things.

693
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.920
And if something seems useful to you, you keep it.

694
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.400
Um, but I want to have this in my mind.

695
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:12.200
Cause I think what happened here was we actually caught a requirement.

696
00:42:12.680 --> 00:42:19.920
Um, so what I'm going to do here is, um, this is a little thing called

697
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:24.080
fit check that lets us figure out if we're done or not.

698
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:24.800
Okay.

699
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.760
And what we're going to do is we're going to have alternate versions,

700
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:33.720
A, B, and C, who knows how many we're going to have.

701
00:42:33.720 --> 00:42:36.320
And we're going to have some requirements that are appearing.

702
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:39.440
And we can negotiate these requirements.

703
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:41.840
They don't all have to be things that we are say are in the scope,

704
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:43.080
but we don't want to forget them.

705
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:50.520
So what I'm adding a requirement here is, um, uh, um, uh, conversation

706
00:42:50.560 --> 00:42:56.800
list filters, um, shows group DMS when filtering.

707
00:42:58.640 --> 00:42:59.120
Yeah.

708
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.840
And then for any one of these options, A, B, or C that we shape, we

709
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:06.160
could say yes or no, or, or yes.

710
00:43:06.520 --> 00:43:09.480
And this is, this gives us a way to do a quick little rundown at any

711
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:11.680
point to see like, are we covering all of our bases?

712
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:11.960
Yeah.

713
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:12.560
Jonathan.

714
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:20.120
I believe that one important question regarding these changes, are we

715
00:43:20.120 --> 00:43:24.080
filtering for like which properties of the conversation model, because

716
00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:31.360
we can filter by user, by message, or even by dates, like, so I believe

717
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.320
this is an important distinction for us to make because this will

718
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.160
impact complexity of the feature.

719
00:43:37.200 --> 00:43:40.840
Great example, great example of a, of a question surfacing about scope.

720
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:42.600
And so Bruce, do I understand, right?

721
00:43:42.600 --> 00:43:46.560
You're, you're kind of representing the person who understands like the, the

722
00:43:46.560 --> 00:43:48.520
value and the purpose and everything here.

723
00:43:48.520 --> 00:43:50.480
So what would you, what would you say to that?

724
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:52.280
Yeah.

725
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:58.000
I mean, I think so, uh, knowing, cause we have a, I think we have a conver-

726
00:43:58.040 --> 00:44:05.400
we, we, so when we dug into this and, um, uh, like we've obviously

727
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:10.560
uncovered a lot, even on Wednesday of how there's even old, like collections

728
00:44:10.560 --> 00:44:13.480
and all kinds of stuff where this was prototyped, or we've, we finally

729
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:15.800
figured out what it was, and I think it is, is, are you referring to the

730
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.440
conversations, um, collection, Jonathan?

731
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:18.880
Is that what you're saying?

732
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:20.840
Yeah, exactly.

733
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.920
Because, uh, for instance, when you search, are you going to search just

734
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.160
by the users in that conversations?

735
00:44:27.520 --> 00:44:31.120
Or are you going to also search by the content of that conversation?

736
00:44:31.120 --> 00:44:35.000
Because it would be another model, which would be the message, which is a

737
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.040
sub collection from the conversations.

738
00:44:37.720 --> 00:44:38.080
Yes.

739
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:39.120
That's, that's good.

740
00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:43.520
And so there is a, the way, and I think what it is is we named it conversation

741
00:44:43.520 --> 00:44:46.200
lists in the, on the, uh, there.

742
00:44:46.200 --> 00:44:47.640
And, and I think that's exactly what it is.

743
00:44:47.640 --> 00:44:50.400
It's just a list of conversations, but there are different properties.

744
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.720
Um, there's an array of who are all the users in this conversation.

745
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:57.240
There's a times date stamp of when was the last message sent?

746
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:58.680
Like who read what?

747
00:44:58.720 --> 00:44:59.920
Like, I don't know what, I think.

748
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.680
There's what your point is, there's a few different, um, scopes there.

749
00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:06.720
So like, I would say, yes, it is going to filter.

750
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:11.160
I would love to search for as much as we can, um, either the user.

751
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:16.440
So if I searched potentially for like, you know, uh, Chris, I would see like,

752
00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:20.520
I'm in a conversation with Christian and Lucian, but also I am having DM with

753
00:45:20.520 --> 00:45:24.180
just me and Chris, like both of those should come up essentially is how I would

754
00:45:24.180 --> 00:45:24.680
see that.

755
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:27.600
Let me see if I understood that.

756
00:45:27.600 --> 00:45:31.960
Um, I heard kind of like, there's a bunch of stuff in addition to just the

757
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.580
names of the users who are in the conversation that we could be filtering

758
00:45:35.580 --> 00:45:36.960
by or searching.

759
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.360
And, um, Bruce, did I hear you say it basically?

760
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.840
Um, what, what you, what matters here is searching through the names of the

761
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:49.420
users and that's, that's what, that's, what's important here and not the other

762
00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:49.920
things.

763
00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.240
Correct.

764
00:45:51.240 --> 00:45:51.360
Yeah.

765
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:56.340
And if you go to the, um, notion board there, this will give you a quick, I

766
00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:58.620
think if I go back to the notion, okay.

767
00:45:58.940 --> 00:45:59.300
Yeah.

768
00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:03.740
And then if you go to the problem, I put like just a context, uh, there.

769
00:46:03.740 --> 00:46:07.940
So if you guys go down a bit, um, where's his current structure, you

770
00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:10.020
could look at database schema.

771
00:46:10.060 --> 00:46:13.540
There's a, what he's referring to is this conversations part of the top

772
00:46:13.580 --> 00:46:14.900
that stores metadata.

773
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:19.340
So there's users messages, you know, is the user typing, is it active?

774
00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:20.740
When was the last message sent?

775
00:46:21.020 --> 00:46:21.620
Got it.

776
00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:24.580
So we're searching users in the conversations.

777
00:46:24.580 --> 00:46:28.020
This is the, this is got it.

778
00:46:28.060 --> 00:46:33.260
So, so what I want to try to do is, um, by the way, if I, if I, if I, if I'm

779
00:46:33.260 --> 00:46:34.860
pushing you too fast, just push back.

780
00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:41.820
I, I just, I just want to respect the, our time limit, you know, um, um, what

781
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:47.740
that makes me want to do is add, add concreteness, add detail here.

782
00:46:47.740 --> 00:46:49.340
So that's not ambiguous, you know?

783
00:46:49.340 --> 00:46:50.980
So I want to get rid of this question.

784
00:46:51.460 --> 00:47:00.100
I want to say queries, users array in the conversations, uh, table.

785
00:47:01.660 --> 00:47:01.860
Yeah.

786
00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:04.980
It's a collection, but yes, good.

787
00:47:05.020 --> 00:47:05.460
Okay.

788
00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:06.180
Yeah.

789
00:47:06.180 --> 00:47:11.860
I'm moving out collections, but that's how it is that how it, that's how it is now.

790
00:47:11.860 --> 00:47:13.620
So we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll say it like that.

791
00:47:13.900 --> 00:47:15.620
Um, is this unambiguous?

792
00:47:17.580 --> 00:47:17.980
Okay.

793
00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:28.100
Um, uh, Bruce, I heard you say, um, if I rename it as family chat, uh, I would

794
00:47:28.100 --> 00:47:29.820
expect to be able to search for that.

795
00:47:30.420 --> 00:47:34.500
That would imply that conversations have names and I don't see that.

796
00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:36.780
Um, it's in here.

797
00:47:36.820 --> 00:47:41.260
If you hit the plus, sorry, in the little mock-up, um, on the V zero

798
00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:45.180
if you hit that plus that was right there.

799
00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:49.180
Um, so here, let's say I added Bruce and Jennifer Bruce.

800
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:52.860
Um, then it's, it just says start, but if you add more than one, now you

801
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:54.220
can actually create a name for it.

802
00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:58.220
Uh, this is kind of a new concept, just a new field.

803
00:47:58.340 --> 00:48:03.300
Um, and this is what's helpful about this prototype is like, I didn't have that idea,

804
00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:08.940
but then once I saw it, uh, you know, then, then I realized the, our, the context

805
00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:12.660
again, to go back to the problem or the frame of this and what the users want

806
00:48:12.700 --> 00:48:18.540
is they have coaching cohorts, um, where coach one is working with, uh, you know,

807
00:48:18.540 --> 00:48:22.940
these seven students, and so they're probably not going to want to call the

808
00:48:22.940 --> 00:48:27.460
chat, you know, Bruce, Christian, not illusion, Macy, Brian, like all in a row.

809
00:48:27.460 --> 00:48:30.220
It's probably going to need to be called like something.

810
00:48:30.260 --> 00:48:32.940
There's probably gonna have a name as I'm assuming associated with it.

811
00:48:33.820 --> 00:48:34.380
Very good.

812
00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:38.340
So what I'm doing is for the first thing I'm doing, uh, so part of what I'm doing

813
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:43.580
here is I'm, I'm using, I'm using the tool of the, these little sort of shaping

814
00:48:43.580 --> 00:48:47.300
tools in the canvas to externalize the things that are happening in my head.

815
00:48:47.620 --> 00:48:52.860
Um, uh, and, uh, um, so this, this is part of playing the shaping game is,

816
00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:55.420
um, what I've noticed is that like, if we.

817
00:48:56.100 --> 00:48:59.060
There's, there's a lot of gold coming up in this conversation right now.

818
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:04.620
And, um, if we're, if we're only talking, it kind of disappears and it doesn't all

819
00:49:04.620 --> 00:49:09.220
add up to, to, to, to a clear answer of what we landed on later.

820
00:49:09.620 --> 00:49:14.180
And, um, so I'm playing this game of like, anytime we talk about anything

821
00:49:14.180 --> 00:49:18.460
that, that matters that we don't disregard, it goes somewhere on the

822
00:49:18.460 --> 00:49:22.620
board so that we can make meaning out of it or that we can like work with it.

823
00:49:22.660 --> 00:49:25.420
So it's kind of like, if it doesn't go on the board, it didn't

824
00:49:25.420 --> 00:49:26.660
happen or it doesn't count.

825
00:49:26.700 --> 00:49:27.100
Okay.

826
00:49:27.260 --> 00:49:29.580
And it's not because I'm trying to document everything, but

827
00:49:29.580 --> 00:49:30.780
that is a good side effect.

828
00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:34.940
It's actually that I'm, I want to make sure that, that we can keep

829
00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:38.020
running the session and we can keep coming back to things and pointing

830
00:49:38.020 --> 00:49:41.300
to things and his session is going to feel like it keeps moving really

831
00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:44.580
fast because we always are just quickly just pointing to something

832
00:49:44.580 --> 00:49:47.740
and not like describing what we talked about 15 minutes ago, you know?

833
00:49:48.020 --> 00:49:48.820
So, okay.

834
00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:50.540
So that's, that was another little game off moment.

835
00:49:50.540 --> 00:49:53.380
So game on again, I'm adding a requirement here that I heard.

836
00:49:54.180 --> 00:49:59.660
Which is, um, so I'm on the problem definition side, you know, not the exact

837
00:49:59.660 --> 00:50:00.180
solution.

838
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.000
inside, but we, even though we have a nice solution

839
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.800
in your V0, I'm just noting this.

840
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:08.800
It's like seven names in a group DM for a coach.

841
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:15.480
Like, it's like, that's bad, yeah?

842
00:50:16.040 --> 00:50:19.320
Like, it feels like it's not just like a little nice

843
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.200
to have that we rename, it's kind of like,

844
00:50:22.200 --> 00:50:24.200
it seems like it's actually gonna,

845
00:50:24.200 --> 00:50:25.520
like, is it true, Bruce?

846
00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:28.240
That it like, it would kind of suck, right?

847
00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:31.040
Like if I had to like visually filter through all that.

848
00:50:35.040 --> 00:50:36.680
For sure, okay, good.

849
00:50:36.680 --> 00:50:40.680
So, and I'm not even gonna, I'm just,

850
00:50:40.680 --> 00:50:42.440
for me, I'm happy just to capture this.

851
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:45.000
So I'm not trying to honor any formalities.

852
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.720
If we had better software, then I could just,

853
00:50:47.720 --> 00:50:48.760
it could self-populate.

854
00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:53.760
But so what I wanna do now is I wanna capture that.

855
00:50:54.520 --> 00:50:57.520
So the V0 was a really good, Jonathan.

856
00:51:04.160 --> 00:51:06.800
In this case of adding a group name,

857
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:09.760
wouldn't be useful to also be able to clarify

858
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:11.360
this group name in the search?

859
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.600
Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.

860
00:51:15.600 --> 00:51:16.960
That's exactly how we got here.

861
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.200
And this is, we're totally in this still, exactly.

862
00:51:19.200 --> 00:51:21.480
So what I'm cap, thanks.

863
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:24.680
You're totally with where I'm trying to go.

864
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:31.320
I mean, there is this idea, we are in A, okay?

865
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:34.440
Not in the current way.

866
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.120
There's this idea for a new message screen

867
00:51:36.120 --> 00:51:37.600
that doesn't exist today.

868
00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:39.440
There's gonna be some kind of a,

869
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:42.480
you know, we currently have search.

870
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.360
There's some other stuff like archive.

871
00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:45.520
There's the list of names.

872
00:51:45.520 --> 00:51:47.680
There's other stuff in the conversation list, right?

873
00:51:47.680 --> 00:51:49.880
But there's this idea here of new message.

874
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:51.680
This is like the new button that you added, right?

875
00:51:51.680 --> 00:51:55.840
And when we go to new message, ding, ding, ding.

876
00:51:57.520 --> 00:51:59.160
When we go to new message,

877
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.640
I mean, the version, I think the version, Bruce,

878
00:52:06.640 --> 00:52:10.640
that you sketched actually had multiple states in it, right?

879
00:52:10.640 --> 00:52:15.640
There was first a, I don't know what to call this UI.

880
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:18.400
So that was actually more of a search,

881
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.320
the way that it, the search used to work.

882
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:24.800
So you could, and maybe we should just-

883
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.160
Yeah, so there's a component that you sketched,

884
00:52:27.160 --> 00:52:29.120
which was a kind of like a,

885
00:52:29.120 --> 00:52:30.000
I don't know what to call this thing.

886
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.200
It's like an autocomplete that you populate

887
00:52:32.200 --> 00:52:34.520
with like removable things inside of it.

888
00:52:34.520 --> 00:52:36.960
It's like, you know, we used to see it in the old days,

889
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:37.800
like as a-

890
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:38.640
Chips, like a chip.

891
00:52:38.640 --> 00:52:39.480
The chips.

892
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:40.320
Yeah, yeah.

893
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:43.120
Yeah, so it's like a,

894
00:52:45.240 --> 00:52:47.000
I mean, this is a component, right?

895
00:52:47.080 --> 00:52:50.040
So I don't know if there's a better name for it,

896
00:52:50.040 --> 00:52:52.440
you know, let's have it, but I don't know.

897
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:54.880
There's an autocomplete with chips

898
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:58.120
and like on change, this thing,

899
00:52:58.120 --> 00:53:01.920
and then there is a, well, we know how that works, right?

900
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.720
And this is searching through individual users, right?

901
00:53:05.720 --> 00:53:09.920
And I can actually just, I'm just gonna,

902
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.240
so the convention I'm using here is,

903
00:53:14.240 --> 00:53:16.200
these are all things that you see in the UI

904
00:53:16.200 --> 00:53:17.960
and these are things that happen

905
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:20.400
through interaction on the backend, you know?

906
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:25.400
And I'm just gonna say that this queries users

907
00:53:26.520 --> 00:53:29.320
just so we understand clearly like what this is, right?

908
00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:34.320
And then how did we get to the point?

909
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:38.560
There wasn't a group name at first here, right?

910
00:53:38.560 --> 00:53:41.400
Like how did we get to seeing a group name?

911
00:53:42.520 --> 00:53:44.280
Yeah, I was experimenting with this,

912
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:46.920
but potentially like when you search for one,

913
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:49.800
like I just type Brian, it would just say start message,

914
00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:51.560
you know, it's kind of simple.

915
00:53:51.560 --> 00:53:53.560
But if I added three people,

916
00:53:53.560 --> 00:53:56.360
there would be like an optional group name

917
00:53:56.360 --> 00:53:57.640
that could be added.

918
00:53:57.640 --> 00:53:59.760
I also don't think it should be required

919
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:03.680
because I don't, you know, I think people typically start

920
00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:07.880
with like, here's a list of seven names.

921
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:09.520
Maybe they wanna rename it,

922
00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:11.320
because that's like another flow of like,

923
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:12.920
how do you rename an existing chat?

924
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:13.760
We'll get there.

925
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:17.840
Yeah, so I had it like logic,

926
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.080
like if someone added a second person.

927
00:54:21.080 --> 00:54:22.680
By the way, I'm capturing that.

928
00:54:22.680 --> 00:54:23.520
Yeah, okay.

929
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.360
And I'm putting question mark on it.

930
00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:28.840
Yeah, great.

931
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:32.680
Okay, sorry.

932
00:54:32.680 --> 00:54:33.560
That's great, yeah.

933
00:54:33.560 --> 00:54:35.960
So just basically the logic would be like,

934
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.480
once you had the first person, if you had a second,

935
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:42.560
then it would give you the option to enter a name as well

936
00:54:43.560 --> 00:54:45.160
for that conversation.

937
00:54:45.160 --> 00:54:46.000
Okay.

938
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:49.280
So,

939
00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:56.920
I'm just gonna draw this out

940
00:54:56.920 --> 00:54:57.920
because we're in version A

941
00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:00.520
and we can have as many alternate versions as we want.

942
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:07.120
I'm going to draw what you built, what you prototyped in VO. If we want to have a new

943
00:55:07.120 --> 00:55:13.840
message with less than three people, I autocomplete with chips, I query up to

944
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.200
two people, and then I have a create action, I think, more or less. Create group.

945
00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:27.280
Selected members, add more members. I'm not going to worry too much about the exact

946
00:55:28.080 --> 00:55:34.720
about spelling all that out because I'm just kind of trying to focus on the key thing here.

947
00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:40.800
This is real, right? So if I actually start from the beginning...

948
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.400
It's just a front end, but yes, it will actually like...

949
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:48.800
Right, but if I do two, it's the second one when I see it.

950
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:49.600
Yeah.

951
00:55:50.160 --> 00:55:57.600
Ah, that makes sense. Got it. Okay. So let's say it defaults to new one-to-one DM.

952
00:55:58.240 --> 00:55:58.480
Yep.

953
00:56:00.720 --> 00:56:00.960
If...

954
00:56:04.560 --> 00:56:04.960
When I'm...

955
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:12.480
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, okay. So there's a list of added people.

956
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:14.480
There's a create group option.

957
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:20.800
There's actually an additional thing happening here. There's a kind of a...

958
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:26.080
We can call it like an on-change event.

959
00:56:28.160 --> 00:56:28.800
I'm just going to...

960
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:32.800
Again, I'm not worried about making everything pretty here. I'm just

961
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.520
hacking it together so we can just understand what it does.

962
00:56:35.520 --> 00:56:41.280
There's this kind of like an on-change, it's not even the right event name,

963
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:48.560
but it's just to get us started, add-to-list, right?

964
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:52.640
Like, if I actually add somebody here, then I can do that, right?

965
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:58.640
We don't need to expand this, I think, because it's clear enough from just looking at the prototype.

966
00:56:58.640 --> 00:57:03.280
But what I now can do here is say that there's a...

967
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:07.040
What I'm doing is I'm actually showing some complexity here, okay?

968
00:57:07.040 --> 00:57:14.480
Which is that like, if there's another on-change somehow happening here under the hood,

969
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:22.640
which is like, if we have more than one now, right, then we have to like...

970
00:57:24.160 --> 00:57:30.560
We have to like change this state so that we're now in the group DMs, right?

971
00:57:30.560 --> 00:57:36.640
So that we're now in the group DM screen and we're not in the individual DM screen anymore, right?

972
00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:42.480
So now when I'm in the group DM screen, I have named the group as an affordance.

973
00:57:43.200 --> 00:57:43.680
I have...

974
00:57:46.560 --> 00:57:53.200
And then I have the same stuff as what we had before, right?

975
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:59.280
I'm going to pause, and Bruce, I want to understand what's on your face.

976
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:00.800
That's great.

977
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:01.360
This is good.

978
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:02.160
I just made a comment.

979
00:58:02.160 --> 00:58:07.120
I was like, I thought, you know, I was like, like I said, we don't know if we're at like 70%, 80%.

980
00:58:07.120 --> 00:58:11.920
I was like, the more you talk, it's gone to 50%, 40%, 30% shape.

981
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:13.760
I was like, seeing it in action.

982
00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:22.160
This is great to see how you like took that, you know, what I spent all of three minutes on with V0.

983
00:58:22.560 --> 00:58:27.040
And now we've like extrapolated that to see really the pieces of all of that, that it makes up.

984
00:58:29.200 --> 00:58:29.440
Yeah.

985
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:35.760
I mean, obviously you want to be as intentional as possible and kind of understand each of these

986
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:36.880
different pieces.

987
00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:39.520
So this is great.

988
00:58:39.520 --> 00:58:40.080
Yeah.

989
00:58:40.080 --> 00:58:41.520
So why is it great?

990
00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:48.000
Why isn't it not just me wasting everybody's time by spelling out something that you already

991
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:48.560
prototyped?

992
00:58:48.560 --> 00:58:50.160
I mean, we already saw it in the prototype.

993
00:58:50.160 --> 00:58:52.160
So what's the value in doing it like this?

994
00:58:54.400 --> 00:59:01.360
I think because these were sort of decisions made, you know, quickly by AI, let's say, with

995
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:06.800
not much thought, but I think that is, this is one way to do it.

996
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.320
There's probably a hundred ways to do this, you know, similar things.

997
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:11.360
Is this the best way?

998
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:16.880
Like, and then not only best way, but is this the most efficient way based on like, like

999
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:21.200
we're kind of checking things like between John, like I was just like, okay, we have a

1000
00:59:21.200 --> 00:59:22.080
conversations array.

1001
00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:25.360
So like, I'm kind of thinking through the technical side of this, like, okay, we're

1002
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:30.320
talking about maybe adding one field to have this like name a group feature, which I, you

1003
00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:34.000
know, we've kind of listed as a requirement, which I think was necessary.

1004
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:36.400
Like it would make for a better user experience.

1005
00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:37.440
Yes.

1006
00:59:38.160 --> 00:59:42.800
But I'm also kind of, as we're going through it in this detail, I'm kind of thinking through

1007
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:46.800
tech tech wise, like what, what has to happen to facilitate that?

1008
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:53.040
It's not a whole overhaul of our, you know, database structure to pull this off, which

1009
00:59:53.040 --> 00:59:53.600
is right.

1010
00:59:53.600 --> 00:59:59.840
So this feels, it feels maybe I'd love to not and Lucien to weigh in as well since this.

1011
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:03.240
They're very close to the tech.

1012
01:00:03.240 --> 01:00:06.000
But yeah, that's, I think, so this is sort of like,

1013
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:10.360
what you've done is mapped out what we had sketched out there.

1014
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:12.120
Now we just need to decide, like,

1015
01:00:12.120 --> 01:00:13.600
is this the most efficient way?

1016
01:00:13.600 --> 01:00:19.480
What could we cut out and simplify if we need to?

1017
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.920
I think this is a good moment to come back

1018
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:28.040
to what Jonathan was saying about,

1019
01:00:28.040 --> 01:00:31.280
doesn't this suggest that we're searching

1020
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:32.680
for more than just users now?

1021
01:00:32.680 --> 01:00:36.920
Are we also searching for group names here, right?

1022
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:39.880
So that would also be, is that right?

1023
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:42.040
That we would need to be, if we want

1024
01:00:42.040 --> 01:00:44.080
to be concrete about what's happening here,

1025
01:00:44.080 --> 01:00:47.000
there's more happening than just querying users now, yeah?

1026
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:53.960
Yeah, the user array and group names, potentially.

1027
01:00:53.960 --> 01:01:00.400
And what I want to do here, this is another little tactic.

1028
01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:05.360
I'm totally with you on the potentially asterisk on that.

1029
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:07.560
Because it's kind of like, we're not all

1030
01:01:07.560 --> 01:01:09.180
saying this is what we're going to do,

1031
01:01:09.180 --> 01:01:11.600
but here it is on the screen in front of us, right?

1032
01:01:11.600 --> 01:01:14.440
And here's where I want to flex a little bit

1033
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:17.520
the value of the A, OK?

1034
01:01:17.520 --> 01:01:21.840
So there is the B version of all of this.

1035
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:23.600
So by the way, I don't know what happened,

1036
01:01:23.600 --> 01:01:25.320
why all my boxes are much too giant.

1037
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:32.720
But we'll take a short just housekeeping moment.

1038
01:01:32.720 --> 01:01:36.520
Yeah, and I'd love to hear, Leighton,

1039
01:01:36.520 --> 01:01:39.480
what do you guys think of this so far?

1040
01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:42.160
Well, so far I'm realizing we almost never do breadboarding.

1041
01:01:42.160 --> 01:01:44.720
And I see the value of where are all the places this

1042
01:01:44.720 --> 01:01:51.520
could come from, especially when we do database or API work.

1043
01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:52.880
Because I always have a doubt of,

1044
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:56.920
do we have a custom tribe front end app,

1045
01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:59.920
like we have Brilliant, that would be affected

1046
01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:01.880
by changing this API?

1047
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:04.000
There's a bunch of more research potentially to do.

1048
01:02:07.720 --> 01:02:09.920
And I like the idea of A, B. So I'm

1049
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:13.240
wondering, does it make sense for you, Ryan,

1050
01:02:13.240 --> 01:02:20.640
to use v0 as the version A, version B, what it could be?

1051
01:02:20.640 --> 01:02:24.120
Or it makes more sense to do it in a whiteboard,

1052
01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:26.440
or it doesn't matter, in your opinion?

1053
01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:28.920
Oh, that's an interesting question.

1054
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:35.440
So the way that I understand what the v0 is

1055
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:40.760
and how it fits into all this is v0

1056
01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.120
is the equivalent of a Figma file.

1057
01:02:44.120 --> 01:02:45.680
It's not the equivalent.

1058
01:02:45.680 --> 01:02:48.480
It's in the similar category.

1059
01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:53.600
It's when you're trying to come up with an idea,

1060
01:02:53.600 --> 01:02:56.320
and you kind of can't really see it,

1061
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.200
and then you need to prototype or mock something in order

1062
01:02:59.200 --> 01:03:00.880
to really get a feel for it to understand

1063
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:01.960
if it's what you want.

1064
01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:04.520
So what I would actually call this,

1065
01:03:04.560 --> 01:03:06.000
I would actually, in the language

1066
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:09.400
of shaping in real life, we call this a spike.

1067
01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:16.840
Now, it's a little funny because we

1068
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:21.320
had to reverse engineer the breadboard in order to get,

1069
01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:23.680
and we got some complexity out of it.

1070
01:03:23.680 --> 01:03:28.560
What was really here, Bruce, tell me if I have this wrong,

1071
01:03:28.560 --> 01:03:31.800
but what I think is Bruce had it in mind of like,

1072
01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:34.360
I think we need to have a new message thing,

1073
01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:38.680
and we need to have a name group option, right?

1074
01:03:38.680 --> 01:03:41.440
Like, if we look into the prompt to v0,

1075
01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:44.440
it's something like that, right?

1076
01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:48.880
And the prompt to v0 is kind of like the A here.

1077
01:03:51.720 --> 01:03:54.680
What v0 made is the spike.

1078
01:03:54.680 --> 01:03:58.480
It's the work of prototyping it to kind of get more clear

1079
01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:00.360
around what does it actually mean

1080
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:01.680
and what could it look like.

1081
01:04:01.680 --> 01:04:03.040
It's like, you know what I mean?

1082
01:04:03.040 --> 01:04:05.240
It's like that extra work of doing the mock.

1083
01:04:05.240 --> 01:04:08.760
But what we're going to find is that we could mix and match.

1084
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:11.120
There might be something we really like about what

1085
01:04:11.120 --> 01:04:12.440
v0 is showing here.

1086
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:18.440
So for example, v0 implemented searching and the list of,

1087
01:04:18.440 --> 01:04:23.160
like, it implemented this in a very specific way.

1088
01:04:23.160 --> 01:04:25.120
I'm not sure if you would choose exactly.

1089
01:04:26.080 --> 01:04:27.080
I'm not sure.

1090
01:04:27.080 --> 01:04:30.080
I'm not sure.

1091
01:04:30.080 --> 01:04:31.640
I think Chris is unmuted.

1092
01:04:31.640 --> 01:04:34.640
Uh-huh.

1093
01:04:34.640 --> 01:04:37.680
I'm not sure if this is the exact way that you would

1094
01:04:37.680 --> 01:04:39.800
choose to do this, you know?

1095
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:42.440
Because there's different fine detailed UI ways

1096
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:43.920
of selecting the people, right?

1097
01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:49.080
And then, like, choosing to show the group name after you

1098
01:04:49.080 --> 01:04:52.200
select the second person, this is also like a choice kind

1099
01:04:52.200 --> 01:04:57.480
of that, like, v0 kind of sort of made.

1100
01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:01.200
What I'm trying to say is that, like, we could mix.

1101
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:02.440
and match pieces of this into a new A and B.

1102
01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:04.520
And this is what breadboarding kind of helps us do

1103
01:05:04.520 --> 01:05:05.760
in a really fast way.

1104
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:09.920
So like, let's say, let's say there was a version of B.

1105
01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:12.380
Now here, I'm putting on the designer hat for a second

1106
01:05:12.380 --> 01:05:15.920
and I'm gonna, this is just for illustration purposes.

1107
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:17.740
I want you guys to run the show here.

1108
01:05:17.740 --> 01:05:20.960
There's a version of this where we have a new,

1109
01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:22.800
we don't have a separate new one-on-one

1110
01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:25.000
and a new group DM screen.

1111
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.360
That's what I named these two different states

1112
01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:29.260
of what Veo created.

1113
01:05:29.300 --> 01:05:33.060
We could have what is simply one new message screen.

1114
01:05:33.060 --> 01:05:34.580
We get rid of all this stuff

1115
01:05:35.540 --> 01:05:37.560
except for the name the group field.

1116
01:05:37.560 --> 01:05:39.540
Name the group field.

1117
01:05:39.540 --> 01:05:43.980
We call name this conversation optional

1118
01:05:45.020 --> 01:05:47.800
and we allow it for one-on-one conversations.

1119
01:05:49.180 --> 01:05:52.820
This is an example of like a very quick sketch

1120
01:05:52.820 --> 01:05:54.060
of an option B.

1121
01:05:57.260 --> 01:05:59.040
Now you guys might have different opinions about that.

1122
01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:02.180
And we could talk about that of like, is that fine?

1123
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:08.760
And it might be that this,

1124
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:12.840
the fact that you're also querying,

1125
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:14.640
so here I would actually, instead of group names,

1126
01:06:14.640 --> 01:06:16.340
I would say conversation names.

1127
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:22.120
It could be that there's some other reason

1128
01:06:22.120 --> 01:06:26.700
why group names or conversation names leave the scope.

1129
01:06:26.700 --> 01:06:29.460
But like here, I'm just talking

1130
01:06:29.460 --> 01:06:30.820
my thought process out loud.

1131
01:06:30.820 --> 01:06:32.580
When I come back over here

1132
01:06:34.620 --> 01:06:36.400
and I think about this requirement,

1133
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:40.620
I find it very hard to remove the naming a conversation

1134
01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:43.900
from the scope of this thing.

1135
01:06:43.900 --> 01:06:46.260
So Bruce, from the product standpoint,

1136
01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:48.080
how are you reacting to that?

1137
01:06:49.940 --> 01:06:52.780
Yeah, I think you're right.

1138
01:06:52.780 --> 01:06:55.700
And just so I understand this fit check concept,

1139
01:06:55.700 --> 01:06:59.020
like we're saying like kind of these A, B, C

1140
01:06:59.020 --> 01:07:00.980
are lining up with the A, B, C

1141
01:07:00.980 --> 01:07:02.540
we're doing on the side there.

1142
01:07:02.540 --> 01:07:05.940
So in A, yes, that would have passed the test

1143
01:07:05.940 --> 01:07:07.020
because like, yes, we can name,

1144
01:07:07.020 --> 01:07:08.860
but B's version, there's no naming

1145
01:07:08.860 --> 01:07:11.420
and there's other downsides for that.

1146
01:07:11.420 --> 01:07:13.620
Yeah, and in this case, B is also a yes

1147
01:07:13.620 --> 01:07:18.020
even though we reduce the scope, right?

1148
01:07:18.020 --> 01:07:18.860
Okay, yeah.

1149
01:07:18.860 --> 01:07:22.180
So you see, that's why the fit check is interesting

1150
01:07:22.180 --> 01:07:26.860
because here there's more scope here, right?

1151
01:07:26.860 --> 01:07:28.580
Here there's less scope,

1152
01:07:28.580 --> 01:07:30.660
but if we look at it in terms of fit,

1153
01:07:31.820 --> 01:07:35.380
both of us let us do the same things.

1154
01:07:35.380 --> 01:07:36.980
You know what I mean?

1155
01:07:36.980 --> 01:07:37.820
Makes sense.

1156
01:07:37.820 --> 01:07:40.900
And as I understand B, you would,

1157
01:07:40.900 --> 01:07:43.180
the flow would be to go,

1158
01:07:43.180 --> 01:07:47.380
I searched for one person's name, Chris,

1159
01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:48.260
I hit new message.

1160
01:07:48.260 --> 01:07:49.100
Now I'm talking to Chris,

1161
01:07:49.100 --> 01:07:51.220
then I can add two or three other people

1162
01:07:51.260 --> 01:07:52.780
to an existing conversation.

1163
01:07:53.900 --> 01:07:55.660
Yeah, so that's something where-

1164
01:07:55.660 --> 01:07:57.620
First trying to do it all in one step.

1165
01:07:58.900 --> 01:08:03.740
This is something where we could,

1166
01:08:03.740 --> 01:08:07.420
so now with a one week time box,

1167
01:08:07.420 --> 01:08:10.020
I'm a little bit worried all the time

1168
01:08:10.020 --> 01:08:11.940
that I'm going into so much detail with this.

1169
01:08:11.940 --> 01:08:13.740
I know you're gonna start to feel like

1170
01:08:13.740 --> 01:08:15.540
Ryan's going into way too much detail

1171
01:08:15.540 --> 01:08:17.460
for something that's only supposed to take a week.

1172
01:08:17.460 --> 01:08:18.300
Do you know what I mean?

1173
01:08:18.540 --> 01:08:22.020
So there's a version of this

1174
01:08:22.020 --> 01:08:23.859
where we just kind of jump forward

1175
01:08:23.859 --> 01:08:24.740
and there's a version of this

1176
01:08:24.740 --> 01:08:27.580
where we really kind of spell that out, you know?

1177
01:08:27.580 --> 01:08:32.580
And I'm gonna try and fall in the middle of that

1178
01:08:33.260 --> 01:08:35.420
with a little fat marker sketch for a second,

1179
01:08:35.420 --> 01:08:37.979
because basically what happened, if I'm honest,

1180
01:08:37.979 --> 01:08:39.420
is you just said some things

1181
01:08:39.420 --> 01:08:40.859
and I can tell that they're meaningful,

1182
01:08:40.859 --> 01:08:42.899
but I couldn't track what you were saying

1183
01:08:42.899 --> 01:08:46.100
because it was like you were seeing something,

1184
01:08:46.100 --> 01:08:47.700
I think, in your head with the flow.

1185
01:08:48.340 --> 01:08:49.180
I just don't know what it meant.

1186
01:08:49.180 --> 01:08:50.500
I get that a lot from our team.

1187
01:08:50.500 --> 01:08:51.340
No, I'm just kidding.

1188
01:08:51.340 --> 01:08:56.340
I mean, actually, we all do that to each other constantly

1189
01:08:57.020 --> 01:09:00.260
when we're having shaping type conversations, you know?

1190
01:09:00.260 --> 01:09:04.740
And so what I'm trying to do when I'm shaping

1191
01:09:04.740 --> 01:09:07.700
is I'm insisting on seeing it

1192
01:09:07.700 --> 01:09:10.340
because then that's only when we can actually

1193
01:09:10.340 --> 01:09:11.260
all look at it together

1194
01:09:11.260 --> 01:09:12.380
and be sure that we actually know

1195
01:09:12.380 --> 01:09:14.180
what we're saying yes to, you know?

1196
01:09:14.220 --> 01:09:19.220
So my instinct here is to draw this and say like,

1197
01:09:21.340 --> 01:09:26.340
okay, so, by the way, the more I analyze this,

1198
01:09:27.540 --> 01:09:32.300
the more this stresses me out, this UI that Vio created.

1199
01:09:32.300 --> 01:09:34.580
At first, it kind of felt like, oh, that's slick, you know?

1200
01:09:34.580 --> 01:09:37.500
But the more I look at it, the more I start to,

1201
01:09:37.500 --> 01:09:39.859
the UI designer in me starts to freak out.

1202
01:09:45.180 --> 01:09:47.660
But can I just, to talk to like the,

1203
01:09:47.660 --> 01:09:50.260
this, and we can go as deep as you want.

1204
01:09:50.260 --> 01:09:52.939
Like, we totally get that we maybe wouldn't spend

1205
01:09:52.939 --> 01:09:55.700
three hours shaping like a one, I totally get that.

1206
01:09:55.700 --> 01:09:57.580
But we're baby steps, you know,

1207
01:09:57.580 --> 01:09:59.860
right now to learn the mechanics of it.

1208
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.040
Um, cause that, you know, we're going to be shaping bigger projects.

1209
01:10:03.040 --> 01:10:07.320
So it's good to know when, when we need to go deeper, but it is, it's even funny

1210
01:10:07.320 --> 01:10:11.200
because when we showed it and we did the first version, we kind of were okay.

1211
01:10:11.240 --> 01:10:14.360
And then when we did the breadboarding, now we're kind of looking at it and

1212
01:10:14.360 --> 01:10:19.800
saying, let's do it, let's just for fun, do a version two and up until after

1213
01:10:19.800 --> 01:10:23.360
version two, now we're like, that was a pretty terrible first version.

1214
01:10:23.360 --> 01:10:26.400
Like, you know, and we all kind of thought it was pretty good the first round.

1215
01:10:26.440 --> 01:10:28.920
And now we're like, it's actually not that great, dude.

1216
01:10:29.200 --> 01:10:34.280
You know, this is so interesting that you say that because this is exactly

1217
01:10:34.280 --> 01:10:36.560
the dynamic that I see with Figma files.

1218
01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:38.440
It's the exact same dynamic.

1219
01:10:38.440 --> 01:10:43.280
And I actually didn't really, this is my first time, um, seeing this with VO.

1220
01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:48.840
Um, so, uh, what I'm realizing is, um, it's the same thing as Figma.

1221
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:53.720
What happens when you look at a Figma is the high fidelity is just seductive

1222
01:10:54.280 --> 01:10:59.960
because it all just looks, I mean, like visually it just looks nice, you know?

1223
01:11:00.400 --> 01:11:03.360
And it feels good to like click stuff, you know?

1224
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:08.840
So like when you click through a high fidelity prototype, it turns off a

1225
01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:12.480
certain part of your brain that is like, wait a minute, is this really a good

1226
01:11:12.480 --> 01:11:13.120
experience?

1227
01:11:13.120 --> 01:11:16.800
Because it just kind of like, it's so easy to just kind of skip along the

1228
01:11:16.800 --> 01:11:19.800
surface of it because the surface is really nice looking, you know?

1229
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.040
So it's a, it's a really, really tricky thing.

1230
01:11:22.040 --> 01:11:23.920
And that's, that's especially why I like this.

1231
01:11:24.440 --> 01:11:29.520
The bread, the breadboarding to me is like the antivirus to the, uh, to the

1232
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:33.320
seduction of the beautiful, of the beautiful surface, you know?

1233
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:39.200
Um, so, because one of the things I'm seeing is that like, I used to see a

1234
01:11:39.200 --> 01:11:47.520
group name, but then when I tried it and now it disappeared, you know, um, so, so,

1235
01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:54.760
um, yeah, so, so, um, uh, what I, what I, yeah, go ahead.

1236
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:56.520
Talking through like our, our process.

1237
01:11:56.520 --> 01:12:01.480
Cause, um, how we would go from here, let's say we like, so you're using a

1238
01:12:01.480 --> 01:12:05.800
breadboard tool, how I may go from here would be, okay, now I'm aware of this.

1239
01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:09.040
I would write another prompt and have it just spit out something else.

1240
01:12:09.040 --> 01:12:10.080
Like, Hey, this is confusing.

1241
01:12:10.080 --> 01:12:11.080
Why does the field move?

1242
01:12:11.080 --> 01:12:15.520
It doesn't follow good, you know, UX, you know, confusing and then just have it

1243
01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:17.200
like spit out a new version real quick.

1244
01:12:17.200 --> 01:12:22.560
And then I would look at that, say, but it, you're, it, uh, that's what, it's

1245
01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:26.080
basically like moving some things around and fig like that's, it's just a faster

1246
01:12:26.080 --> 01:12:29.960
way to do it than spending an hour, you know, figuring all that out.

1247
01:12:30.480 --> 01:12:34.720
Um, so, but, but this is, I think more intentional kind of thinking

1248
01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:37.080
of like, that's an option.

1249
01:12:37.120 --> 01:12:38.720
Is it like, is it the option?

1250
01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:40.840
Like, is it, is it the easiest way?

1251
01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:43.320
Cause there's, it seems like what you're saying with the shaping is we're trying

1252
01:12:43.320 --> 01:12:48.040
to find that sweet spot, which is like, it is extremely simple and

1253
01:12:48.040 --> 01:12:50.120
intuitive and it's easy to build.

1254
01:12:50.120 --> 01:12:54.200
Like that kind of the, the best of both worlds, like it feels

1255
01:12:54.200 --> 01:12:55.400
intuitive and it's simple.

1256
01:12:55.880 --> 01:13:00.960
Um, so this is helping to like, look at all the steps that are necessary and

1257
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:04.000
then try to actually think through the right way to do it.

1258
01:13:05.400 --> 01:13:05.960
Yeah.

1259
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:11.240
Um, uh, I, I, I think also though your instinct of like, like there are going

1260
01:13:11.240 --> 01:13:16.360
to be times when this starts to feel too slow and, and if, if you're like,

1261
01:13:16.360 --> 01:13:20.000
look, it's going to be fine, no matter what, there's some version of this

1262
01:13:20.080 --> 01:13:24.560
where we always expose the name, the conversation at the right level.

1263
01:13:24.920 --> 01:13:27.680
Like there's going to be some version of this that I could prompt VZero to

1264
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:30.560
give me where I would actually feel okay with it, do you know what I mean?

1265
01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:35.360
Like, I kind of feel like, I kind of, I kind of feel like you just said that.

1266
01:13:35.720 --> 01:13:38.040
And I think it's true also, do you know what I mean?

1267
01:13:38.240 --> 01:13:43.520
So that kind of makes me want to pull back and say, let's not worry about the

1268
01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:46.960
UI because actually think that there is some version of this that would be more

1269
01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:55.560
or less fine, unless, so let's just sort of like feel the room here.

1270
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:59.920
Like, do you sense a risk of any time bombs here?

1271
01:13:59.920 --> 01:14:05.480
Or do you kind of feel like, uh, there's a version of this, no matter what we do

1272
01:14:05.480 --> 01:14:10.680
when it comes to, you know, auto completing or, or, you know, adding

1273
01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:14.720
people and then accumulating the kind of chips, you know, like, like, does

1274
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:16.080
this just kind of feel fine?

1275
01:14:16.320 --> 01:14:19.680
And, and it's really just the decision that we need to think

1276
01:14:19.680 --> 01:14:21.320
about having conversation names.

1277
01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:25.160
That's good.

1278
01:14:25.160 --> 01:14:25.520
Yeah.

1279
01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:29.400
Jinad as well, love to, cause you're probably the one who's building

1280
01:14:29.400 --> 01:14:31.280
most of this after this call.

1281
01:14:33.320 --> 01:14:34.520
Yeah, I think it's fine.

1282
01:14:35.080 --> 01:14:36.080
I think it's fine.

1283
01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:44.480
Um, yeah, pretty autocomplete with chips idea.

1284
01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:47.720
I don't think we have a component for that anywhere in the app.

1285
01:14:49.720 --> 01:14:53.800
Yeah, probably maybe just, uh, a distinction of, are we showing

1286
01:14:53.800 --> 01:14:56.080
like the complete name of everyone?

1287
01:14:56.080 --> 01:14:59.800
Just the first and last name, because some people, some users.

1288
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:01.880
I believe don't have display email set.

1289
01:15:01.880 --> 01:15:06.400
So they have their emails as like their display names.

1290
01:15:06.400 --> 01:15:11.160
So for some clients, I believe like Rainmakers,

1291
01:15:11.160 --> 01:15:14.040
a bunch of their users have their emails

1292
01:15:14.040 --> 01:15:16.820
are set are their display names.

1293
01:15:16.820 --> 01:15:19.360
So in this search, when you are adding a new user,

1294
01:15:19.360 --> 01:15:22.560
you would have to search for the email,

1295
01:15:22.560 --> 01:15:25.800
but then everyone else would be searching for the display name.

1296
01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:28.000
So that would create some conflict

1297
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:30.880
because of how the data is structured on the back end

1298
01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:32.120
as right now.

1299
01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:39.040
So maybe, yeah, just thinking about like problems

1300
01:15:39.040 --> 01:15:41.640
like very big emails, like making tags

1301
01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:46.160
may be complicated to implement because they would be

1302
01:15:46.160 --> 01:15:47.560
like on a gallery view.

1303
01:15:51.360 --> 01:15:53.640
Here is something.

1304
01:15:53.640 --> 01:15:55.560
So by the way, those are all really,

1305
01:15:55.560 --> 01:15:57.720
that's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to surface here.

1306
01:15:58.680 --> 01:16:00.600
There's like a kind of a bunch of questions here, right?

1307
01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:02.960
Like, oh, we don't always have names.

1308
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:05.160
Sometimes it's email addresses.

1309
01:16:05.160 --> 01:16:10.160
If this was a six week project, Bruce, I would be saying,

1310
01:16:10.520 --> 01:16:12.280
let's just trust the team to figure this out

1311
01:16:12.280 --> 01:16:13.520
when they're on the spot.

1312
01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:15.280
Do you know what I mean?

1313
01:16:15.280 --> 01:16:17.440
The thing though, is that at the appetite

1314
01:16:17.440 --> 01:16:19.080
of a week or two weeks,

1315
01:16:20.440 --> 01:16:24.440
that kind of prototyping and designing

1316
01:16:24.440 --> 01:16:26.240
and playing around and designing,

1317
01:16:26.240 --> 01:16:29.720
I kind of feel like it leads to having a conversation

1318
01:16:29.720 --> 01:16:30.560
like this anyway.

1319
01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:31.400
Do you know what I mean?

1320
01:16:31.400 --> 01:16:33.200
It kind of feels like it should be,

1321
01:16:33.200 --> 01:16:35.160
if it's really gonna be something that's like two weeks,

1322
01:16:35.160 --> 01:16:36.560
it's like we should have a clearer sense

1323
01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:39.920
of like how we're gonna handle this upfront, I would think.

1324
01:16:41.400 --> 01:16:44.360
So what I'm erring on the side of right now is like,

1325
01:16:44.360 --> 01:16:48.560
is there kind of a straightforward answer to this

1326
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:51.840
of what this thing could be using the components

1327
01:16:51.840 --> 01:16:53.640
that you guys already have and already know?

1328
01:16:53.640 --> 01:16:57.400
Because we also just identified that like this,

1329
01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:02.200
if I heard right, this like isn't exactly

1330
01:17:02.200 --> 01:17:04.680
like a preexisting component that you have.

1331
01:17:06.400 --> 01:17:09.240
I would bring that in the JavaScript app,

1332
01:17:09.240 --> 01:17:10.680
we have like a component like that,

1333
01:17:10.680 --> 01:17:14.160
we call it the multi-select, like searchable multi-select.

1334
01:17:14.160 --> 01:17:15.360
But it's like a different code,

1335
01:17:15.360 --> 01:17:18.200
it would need like porting to like Flutter,

1336
01:17:18.200 --> 01:17:20.920
but I would offer that as a candidate.

1337
01:17:20.920 --> 01:17:21.760
It would need porting to Flutter.

1338
01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:24.240
There are like small issues that like,

1339
01:17:24.240 --> 01:17:25.440
it would need some work,

1340
01:17:25.440 --> 01:17:29.160
like it requires like preloading the whole set of options.

1341
01:17:29.160 --> 01:17:32.280
It's not like, you can't like query the first page.

1342
01:17:32.280 --> 01:17:33.960
And so there are like little options,

1343
01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:35.960
but that could be a good candidate.

1344
01:17:35.960 --> 01:17:39.360
How many users are we talking about here?

1345
01:17:39.360 --> 01:17:42.000
When you, what is the range of values here

1346
01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:43.920
in terms of number of people being searched?

1347
01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:46.040
Is it thousands on the?

1348
01:17:46.040 --> 01:17:46.880
Thousands.

1349
01:17:47.800 --> 01:17:49.440
Yeah, and I think the way,

1350
01:17:49.440 --> 01:17:51.520
so we do have a working version of search

1351
01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:54.240
that when you click on that search,

1352
01:17:54.240 --> 01:17:56.040
remember it's gonna kind of go right back

1353
01:17:56.040 --> 01:17:57.800
to the beginning of our conversation.

1354
01:17:57.800 --> 01:17:58.640
We thought about-

1355
01:17:58.640 --> 01:18:00.160
We have user search already.

1356
01:18:00.160 --> 01:18:02.400
Yes, so when you type that in there,

1357
01:18:02.400 --> 01:18:03.520
you actually start to type it.

1358
01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:04.960
It does run a query.

1359
01:18:04.960 --> 01:18:06.320
Yes.

1360
01:18:06.320 --> 01:18:08.600
And then from there, it says like,

1361
01:18:08.600 --> 01:18:10.120
so if I typed L U,

1362
01:18:10.120 --> 01:18:14.400
then it would kind of bring up the 17 test users of Luchan.

1363
01:18:14.400 --> 01:18:15.240
Got it.

1364
01:18:15.240 --> 01:18:16.640
I essentially could pick one of those

1365
01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:17.480
and then that would,

1366
01:18:17.480 --> 01:18:19.200
but what it does is it's on click,

1367
01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:21.080
it just fires the new DM,

1368
01:18:21.080 --> 01:18:22.680
which I think you had that in,

1369
01:18:22.680 --> 01:18:25.440
breadboarded in your first version somewhere.

1370
01:18:25.440 --> 01:18:26.960
When we looked at the current version.

1371
01:18:26.960 --> 01:18:28.880
Yeah, current version, exactly.

1372
01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:29.720
So you would,

1373
01:18:30.560 --> 01:18:34.840
this search queries the users

1374
01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:36.280
there on that conversion list.

1375
01:18:36.280 --> 01:18:37.280
Yes, here, yes.

1376
01:18:38.240 --> 01:18:41.000
And so that is technically working.

1377
01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:42.320
I think what we're talking about is like,

1378
01:18:42.320 --> 01:18:45.800
instead of the action going and starting a new DM,

1379
01:18:45.800 --> 01:18:47.720
because essentially once I search

1380
01:18:47.720 --> 01:18:49.200
and there's sort of another action here,

1381
01:18:49.200 --> 01:18:51.680
where I click on a user,

1382
01:18:51.680 --> 01:18:56.680
then it just goes straight to the chat for that user.

1383
01:18:57.680 --> 01:19:01.920
The action would be to add them to a list.

1384
01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:03.840
So I would choose Luchan,

1385
01:19:03.840 --> 01:19:04.760
he goes add to the list,

1386
01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:06.800
but then I could either search for someone else and add him

1387
01:19:06.800 --> 01:19:09.640
or just start chatting right away.

1388
01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:11.200
We just, we skipped a step here.

1389
01:19:11.200 --> 01:19:12.520
And like, as soon as you click on their name,

1390
01:19:12.520 --> 01:19:14.040
it just assumes you want to start a chat

1391
01:19:14.040 --> 01:19:15.680
with that one person.

1392
01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:16.840
And then you're in.

1393
01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:23.520
So I'm going to try and retell what I think I heard,

1394
01:19:30.360 --> 01:19:33.320
which is Bruce,

1395
01:19:33.320 --> 01:19:35.320
you were saying that in the current,

1396
01:19:35.320 --> 01:19:36.800
you currently have something,

1397
01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:39.080
you currently have something that exists

1398
01:19:39.080 --> 01:19:41.240
in the existing system

1399
01:19:41.240 --> 01:19:44.160
for searching in the conversation list that queries users.

1400
01:19:45.160 --> 01:19:48.360
And then the part where I lost you,

1401
01:19:48.360 --> 01:19:50.080
as you said, like when you click,

1402
01:19:50.080 --> 01:19:53.760
when you get the results and you click on a user,

1403
01:19:55.240 --> 01:19:57.480
then there's an action to create a conversation

1404
01:19:57.480 --> 01:19:59.080
with that person, is that right?

1405
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:00.360
Correct.

1406
01:20:00.360 --> 01:20:00.680
Yeah.

1407
01:20:01.080 --> 01:20:03.360
I can show it to you if you'd like to see it.

1408
01:20:03.360 --> 01:20:06.800
If we do just a little game, uh, not game off moment, but you know, when you

1409
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:10.520
say like, we're pointing to the thing, uh, you know, that screenshot that we

1410
01:20:10.520 --> 01:20:14.640
got of the, like the desktop current, like what this one there, so that's

1411
01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:17.360
the like search input box there.

1412
01:20:17.400 --> 01:20:17.900
Yes.

1413
01:20:18.440 --> 01:20:18.940
Yes.

1414
01:20:19.080 --> 01:20:24.480
Like we just grabbed the thing and pull it into like the create message and we

1415
01:20:24.480 --> 01:20:31.600
just changed like the on click user, uh, like function so that that would be

1416
01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:34.640
like just reusing that, changing one, one small piece.

1417
01:20:35.040 --> 01:20:35.520
Got it.

1418
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:36.000
Okay.

1419
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:42.040
Let's, let's try, um, our let's, so let's say we're still working on, on, um, B

1420
01:20:42.040 --> 01:20:46.200
here, I'm going to delete this C that I started, let's say we're still working

1421
01:20:46.200 --> 01:20:49.800
on B and we're just trying to really like simplify this down to something

1422
01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:51.560
with components we understand.

1423
01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:57.000
Um, instead of just describing what was in the VO, um, what I heard was, um,

1424
01:20:57.560 --> 01:21:04.480
um, um, search same component as conversation list.

1425
01:21:06.160 --> 01:21:06.660
Yep.

1426
01:21:09.160 --> 01:21:14.800
Um, uh, then there's, there's a, there's an on click.

1427
01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:15.300
Okay.

1428
01:21:19.040 --> 01:21:21.040
Actually, I'm going to follow my breadboarding rules.

1429
01:21:21.040 --> 01:21:21.540
Sorry.

1430
01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:23.640
Um, which is that things only point to places.

1431
01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:33.280
I'm just going to say, um, um, add on, on, on click, um, add to, um, uh, uh,

1432
01:21:33.400 --> 01:21:34.200
what do you call it?

1433
01:21:34.320 --> 01:21:37.400
Uh, added people.

1434
01:21:42.400 --> 01:21:43.600
We didn't have language for that.

1435
01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:44.240
I don't think.

1436
01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:47.600
Yeah, there isn't language for that.

1437
01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:48.100
Okay.

1438
01:21:48.100 --> 01:21:48.600
That's fine.

1439
01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:53.040
Anyway, um, add to S so somehow when I click there was, when I, when I click

1440
01:21:53.040 --> 01:21:57.280
on a result, I, I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add this to

1441
01:21:57.280 --> 01:22:00.800
the added people, which would mean that the list of added people gets populated

1442
01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:02.640
with different, with more people than before.

1443
01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:03.380
Yeah.

1444
01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:12.640
Um, does this start to feel, um, small and known?

1445
01:22:13.160 --> 01:22:17.840
Small and known if we reuse this component that you already have.

1446
01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:22.440
That seems easier.

1447
01:22:22.440 --> 01:22:22.940
Yeah.

1448
01:22:24.240 --> 01:22:27.560
We know, we know it, it works for the most part.

1449
01:22:28.320 --> 01:22:29.920
Do you have, do you have any reservations?

1450
01:22:32.320 --> 01:22:35.560
I don't know, Janata you're, you're, you're much closer than I am to it.

1451
01:22:36.480 --> 01:22:36.980
Yeah.

1452
01:22:37.420 --> 01:22:45.260
Um, yeah, my only reservation is that, uh, this is part of, uh, this, uh, search

1453
01:22:45.260 --> 01:22:51.300
part was viewed, uh, at least from my understanding as part of the Acme template,

1454
01:22:51.380 --> 01:22:55.740
which is a template we bought and we, uh, imported into our project.

1455
01:22:56.140 --> 01:23:01.540
And as, and I'm looking at the code now and it's, I mean, it's not

1456
01:23:01.540 --> 01:23:04.180
implemented exactly as a component.

1457
01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:08.700
It's more like, uh, like very part of the code.

1458
01:23:08.700 --> 01:23:13.220
So it would have, we would have to like work with this part of kind of

1459
01:23:14.540 --> 01:23:19.300
decoupling from the rest of application and making it, uh, making

1460
01:23:19.340 --> 01:23:21.620
it into a reusable component.

1461
01:23:22.180 --> 01:23:22.680
Got it.

1462
01:23:23.620 --> 01:23:28.060
It's sure it's a lot simpler than building from scratch for sure.

1463
01:23:28.940 --> 01:23:30.700
It's, it's a lot simpler than building from scratch.

1464
01:23:30.700 --> 01:23:31.200
Okay.

1465
01:23:31.320 --> 01:23:35.040
Um, so one, one thing I want to do is I want to, I just want

1466
01:23:35.040 --> 01:23:36.440
to really capture what this is.

1467
01:23:36.480 --> 01:23:41.560
Um, uh, uh, Janata, what is the name of that?

1468
01:23:41.600 --> 01:23:45.280
Like, if I wanted to say like search from this gross old thing,

1469
01:23:45.380 --> 01:23:46.720
like, what is that called?

1470
01:23:48.200 --> 01:23:55.200
It's the search from Acme component, which is inside Acumen, Acme, Acme,

1471
01:23:55.200 --> 01:23:57.560
like the, like the, yeah, like Looney Tunes.

1472
01:23:57.600 --> 01:23:58.100
Okay.

1473
01:23:58.300 --> 01:23:58.800
Great.

1474
01:23:58.820 --> 01:24:00.260
So I'm going to say search from Acme.

1475
01:24:00.260 --> 01:24:01.460
Now we really know what that means.

1476
01:24:01.540 --> 01:24:02.040
Right.

1477
01:24:02.260 --> 01:24:05.660
Cause I want, I want, we want to see this in the concept and be like, either,

1478
01:24:05.660 --> 01:24:09.700
like, we want to be like really aware of like what that means that like this

1479
01:24:09.740 --> 01:24:14.460
version B version B means we're like adding in conversation names as a model

1480
01:24:14.460 --> 01:24:18.460
concept and we're reusing this old thing that we maybe don't feel great about

1481
01:24:18.460 --> 01:24:20.940
reusing, but we're not willing to invest in building something new from

1482
01:24:20.940 --> 01:24:23.020
scratch right now, trade-off wise.

1483
01:24:23.060 --> 01:24:25.860
Does that sound, does that sound like a good idea to you?

1484
01:24:26.220 --> 01:24:27.100
Trade-off wise.

1485
01:24:27.140 --> 01:24:32.020
Does that sound like an accurate reflection of technical guys?

1486
01:24:32.020 --> 01:24:34.140
Is that, does that sound like true?

1487
01:24:35.340 --> 01:24:35.820
That's good.

1488
01:24:35.820 --> 01:24:36.320
Yep.

1489
01:24:37.020 --> 01:24:37.520
Okay.

1490
01:24:38.420 --> 01:24:43.580
Um, and you said on click add to, I just curious, like your framework,

1491
01:24:43.580 --> 01:24:44.740
you're like on click add to people.

1492
01:24:44.740 --> 01:24:47.060
And then you went back to the new, new message.

1493
01:24:47.740 --> 01:24:53.620
So this, this is, yeah, this is my way of, um, okay.

1494
01:24:53.700 --> 01:24:57.860
What I've found is that, um, if I have a rule for how a breadboard should be

1495
01:24:57.860 --> 01:24:59.900
made, it helps me to.

1496
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:04.300
move faster because I don't have to debate with myself all the time about how to invent

1497
01:25:04.300 --> 01:25:07.900
a notation for the thing I'm trying to describe.

1498
01:25:07.900 --> 01:25:12.540
But this is a personal style thing, you know?

1499
01:25:12.540 --> 01:25:19.060
So my personal rule that helps me breadboard is that arrows only point to places.

1500
01:25:19.060 --> 01:25:22.040
They never point directly to other affordances.

1501
01:25:22.040 --> 01:25:24.940
And that forces things to happen.

1502
01:25:24.940 --> 01:25:30.180
So for example, it means that I can't be changing a bunch of state here that makes

1503
01:25:30.180 --> 01:25:34.180
affordances appear and disappear by making one affordance point to the other.

1504
01:25:34.180 --> 01:25:38.740
It's the reason why I expressed this as two different places, even though it's not two

1505
01:25:38.740 --> 01:25:42.300
different places.

1506
01:25:42.300 --> 01:25:47.260
And the reason why is it helped us to spell out what the affordances are.

1507
01:25:47.260 --> 01:25:48.980
It basically is just like a...

1508
01:25:48.980 --> 01:25:53.320
It helps us to make sure that we always unfold all of the different states and we can always

1509
01:25:53.320 --> 01:25:55.800
kind of see them.

1510
01:25:55.800 --> 01:26:00.240
If you're familiar with React, you can think of this as the React model.

1511
01:26:00.240 --> 01:26:04.600
All I can do is change props from these things.

1512
01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:05.600
You know what I mean?

1513
01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:07.480
So everything is going to re-render from here.

1514
01:26:07.480 --> 01:26:11.920
And then if it's going to substantially change all of this, then I want to...

1515
01:26:11.920 --> 01:26:12.920
Well, yeah.

1516
01:26:12.920 --> 01:26:14.880
Maybe it's not a good comparison.

1517
01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:15.880
But that's just kind of...

1518
01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:22.000
That's just sort of my rule of thumb that I find helps it to be understandable.

1519
01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:29.080
If there's a new message thing, there's a version of new message that is after you added

1520
01:26:29.080 --> 01:26:30.080
people essentially.

1521
01:26:30.080 --> 01:26:31.080
Yeah.

1522
01:26:31.080 --> 01:26:37.080
The thing is that if all those different states live under here, they will become hidden to

1523
01:26:37.080 --> 01:26:39.720
us on the breadboard.

1524
01:26:39.720 --> 01:26:45.840
There will be hidden things happening if sometimes...

1525
01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:54.160
If I try to say name group, like, only if more than two selected, I guess that would

1526
01:26:54.160 --> 01:26:58.040
be an alternative here.

1527
01:26:58.040 --> 01:27:01.120
We could actually do that.

1528
01:27:01.120 --> 01:27:02.640
But that's actually not what happened.

1529
01:27:02.640 --> 01:27:07.080
Did you notice that v0, I mean, it was like a whole different...

1530
01:27:07.080 --> 01:27:09.160
It was like actually a different even screen layout.

1531
01:27:09.160 --> 01:27:11.480
Like it moved things up and down depending on...

1532
01:27:11.480 --> 01:27:12.480
I don't know.

1533
01:27:12.480 --> 01:27:13.960
I'm not going to try and justify it too much.

1534
01:27:14.080 --> 01:27:16.840
I think there's always freedom to choose your notation style.

1535
01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:22.440
We can talk about AI being dumb, but when you lay it out like this, which is the way

1536
01:27:22.440 --> 01:27:27.480
I would have put it, like just name the group is just part of the new DM screen and it's

1537
01:27:27.480 --> 01:27:33.320
just like conditional, then it seems like E are basically the same.

1538
01:27:33.320 --> 01:27:35.120
Then it seems like what?

1539
01:27:35.120 --> 01:27:38.880
It seems like A and B are basically the same thing.

1540
01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:39.880
Yeah.

1541
01:27:39.880 --> 01:27:40.880
Yeah.

1542
01:27:40.880 --> 01:27:43.920
So this kind of helps to see the complexity, right?

1543
01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:45.880
It surfaces it.

1544
01:27:45.880 --> 01:27:46.880
You said it better than I could.

1545
01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:48.720
That's what I'm trying to say.

1546
01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:55.360
This rule somehow, I don't know if I've explained it, somehow forces things to come to the surface.

1547
01:27:55.360 --> 01:27:56.360
Yeah.

1548
01:27:56.360 --> 01:27:57.360
If I can only point to places.

1549
01:27:57.360 --> 01:28:02.120
It's some weird just thing learned through trial and error.

1550
01:28:02.120 --> 01:28:03.440
It's a good convention though.

1551
01:28:03.440 --> 01:28:05.440
It should just point to places.

1552
01:28:05.440 --> 01:28:07.040
Makes sense.

1553
01:28:07.040 --> 01:28:08.040
Yeah.

1554
01:28:08.040 --> 01:28:09.040
Okay.

1555
01:28:09.480 --> 01:28:10.480
Okay.

1556
01:28:10.480 --> 01:28:15.840
So I feel like we got, I feel like we understand this piece of what we've been trying to shape.

1557
01:28:15.840 --> 01:28:21.760
I feel like we can move on to see if there's other things besides creating a conversation

1558
01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:24.600
and filtering a conversation.

1559
01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:28.040
We've talked about searching for group DMs.

1560
01:28:28.040 --> 01:28:30.280
We've talked about creating group DMs.

1561
01:28:30.280 --> 01:28:32.000
I kind of feel like we can move on from here.

1562
01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:36.200
Do you guys also feel like we could keep going?

1563
01:28:36.200 --> 01:28:41.320
One question maybe just as, and this may be go through the whole process at the end,

1564
01:28:41.320 --> 01:28:47.560
but now, because I'm kind of thinking like, at what point do we sort of, do we need to

1565
01:28:47.560 --> 01:28:51.680
capture it yet or update like how we've written it out in Notion?

1566
01:28:51.680 --> 01:28:58.400
Or is that kind of like a final step once all the pieces are assembled?

1567
01:28:58.400 --> 01:29:03.040
How would you like, because you're saying, okay, how do we move on from this?

1568
01:29:03.040 --> 01:29:08.640
Do we come back and capture this or how, like, yeah, what's, what would be like best

1569
01:29:08.640 --> 01:29:09.640
practices?

1570
01:29:09.640 --> 01:29:11.680
Yeah, that's really good.

1571
01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:15.480
So okay.

1572
01:29:15.480 --> 01:29:22.040
In the, in the Shape Up by the Book world, the written document has a, has a, has a very

1573
01:29:22.040 --> 01:29:25.080
important position, you know?

1574
01:29:25.080 --> 01:29:27.920
And so there's this notion of like the pitch or whatever.

1575
01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:33.960
And like this, I feel like this is like an evolution, an evolution of that, where there's

1576
01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:37.280
like this document for what was shaped, you know?

1577
01:29:37.280 --> 01:29:46.920
What I found in practice is that the shaping itself, the real shaping, where we do the

1578
01:29:46.920 --> 01:29:53.880
uphill work together until we get to the aha, and we really feel like now we've got it,

1579
01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:56.920
that is really more like whiteboard work.

1580
01:29:56.920 --> 01:29:59.000
It's, it's, it's that kind of work.

1581
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:05.800
So, because what I find is that if we try to get to the shape,

1582
01:30:05.900 --> 01:30:08.100
if we, so we're doing uphill work together.

1583
01:30:08.200 --> 01:30:11.300
If we try to do that uphill work, like in the document,

1584
01:30:11.400 --> 01:30:13.440
it's too easy to miss things.

1585
01:30:13.540 --> 01:30:15.440
And then we ask for feedback and you know what I mean?

1586
01:30:15.540 --> 01:30:17.580
Like, I mean, you can see how we're surfacing things

1587
01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:21.240
differently by doing it on a whiteboard.

1588
01:30:21.340 --> 01:30:23.420
What I find is that, like, there's

1589
01:30:23.520 --> 01:30:27.760
going to come a point where we feel like we got it.

1590
01:30:28.740 --> 01:30:31.020
Let's say there wasn't really much more to solve than this.

1591
01:30:31.120 --> 01:30:33.620
We could say, like, this is what we're going to go do.

1592
01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:34.960
OK, boom.

1593
01:30:35.060 --> 01:30:38.560
Then the document piece is really,

1594
01:30:38.660 --> 01:30:41.460
the language we use in shaping in real life for this

1595
01:30:41.560 --> 01:30:42.700
is packaging.

1596
01:30:42.800 --> 01:30:44.860
We call it packaging what was shaped,

1597
01:30:44.960 --> 01:30:46.900
like packaging for delivery.

1598
01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:51.500
And the idea is like, here's the cleaned up version

1599
01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:53.780
of whatever you need to know from what we solved

1600
01:30:53.880 --> 01:30:55.940
so that we don't have to scratch our heads looking

1601
01:30:56.040 --> 01:30:57.140
at a million things.

1602
01:30:57.160 --> 01:31:00.700
We don't have to look at all of this and be like, what was it?

1603
01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:02.000
Do you know what I mean?

1604
01:31:02.100 --> 01:31:03.800
What we want to basically do is like,

1605
01:31:03.900 --> 01:31:05.740
let's say we got somewhere.

1606
01:31:05.840 --> 01:31:10.900
We want to be able to go like, this is the thing, you know?

1607
01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:16.980
And these were the reasons.

1608
01:31:17.080 --> 01:31:19.180
Let's say these were the reasons.

1609
01:31:19.280 --> 01:31:22.320
And then if you felt like if, let's say,

1610
01:31:22.420 --> 01:31:24.860
other people were building who aren't on this call,

1611
01:31:25.680 --> 01:31:30.280
then it could make sense to do a little notion doc that

1612
01:31:30.380 --> 01:31:33.080
kind of has the frame.

1613
01:31:33.180 --> 01:31:36.760
And then the solution piece is kind of like,

1614
01:31:36.860 --> 01:31:38.820
here's the breadboard and a little bit of explanation

1615
01:31:38.920 --> 01:31:39.820
around it.

1616
01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:41.400
Here's some requirements that we found.

1617
01:31:41.500 --> 01:31:43.660
This is the reason why this stuff is in the breadboard

1618
01:31:43.760 --> 01:31:45.900
because we realized that renaming is important.

1619
01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:47.560
And you know what I mean?

1620
01:31:47.660 --> 01:31:48.940
We looked at this, and we looked at that,

1621
01:31:49.040 --> 01:31:51.340
and reusing the search turned out to be the easiest way

1622
01:31:51.440 --> 01:31:52.580
or whatever, you know?

1623
01:31:52.800 --> 01:31:56.200
So it comes down to the packaging.

1624
01:31:56.300 --> 01:31:58.700
I try not to be very prescriptive

1625
01:31:58.800 --> 01:32:01.140
because it depends on like, if you're giving this

1626
01:32:01.240 --> 01:32:02.640
to totally different people, then

1627
01:32:02.740 --> 01:32:04.400
they need something very, very cleaned up

1628
01:32:04.500 --> 01:32:05.880
that they can refer to.

1629
01:32:05.980 --> 01:32:07.420
If it's going to be the same people,

1630
01:32:07.520 --> 01:32:10.380
and you're going to kick off tomorrow,

1631
01:32:10.480 --> 01:32:12.920
this scribbly circle might be enough for you

1632
01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:14.480
to just come back and be like, yeah,

1633
01:32:14.580 --> 01:32:17.760
that's what we solved together.

1634
01:32:17.860 --> 01:32:18.520
Gotcha.

1635
01:32:18.620 --> 01:32:19.920
Perfect.

1636
01:32:20.640 --> 01:32:22.240
I see teams doing like looms.

1637
01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:25.540
They'll do like a video walkthrough of the whiteboard.

1638
01:32:25.640 --> 01:32:28.780
And then that kind of becomes the source of truth

1639
01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:31.480
for the downstream steps.

1640
01:32:31.580 --> 01:32:32.620
I think, yeah, that's good.

1641
01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:35.620
We leverage video like that a lot.

1642
01:32:35.720 --> 01:32:38.720
I think the trick is, yeah, it's doing it at the,

1643
01:32:38.820 --> 01:32:40.460
like, here's the final thing.

1644
01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:43.920
Like, not all the iteration, like, in between bits.

1645
01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:46.600
It's like, if you have five minutes to get caught up on

1646
01:32:46.700 --> 01:32:47.900
this, like, watch this one thing,

1647
01:32:47.980 --> 01:32:49.740
and you'll kind of be up to speed.

1648
01:32:49.840 --> 01:32:50.740
Yeah, totally.

1649
01:32:50.840 --> 01:32:53.480
What I would usually, the summary version

1650
01:32:53.580 --> 01:32:57.380
that my sort of default is, we didn't

1651
01:32:57.480 --> 01:32:59.460
need to get into framing, so these things are empty.

1652
01:32:59.560 --> 01:33:02.420
But what I would usually kind of default to

1653
01:33:02.520 --> 01:33:05.800
is I would have whatever the final thing that we got to,

1654
01:33:05.900 --> 01:33:07.900
which is like the way.

1655
01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.600
Like, this is the concept, you know?

1656
01:33:12.700 --> 01:33:15.060
If we, sometimes we do, if we actually

1657
01:33:15.100 --> 01:33:18.840
have a clear spelling out of the current way,

1658
01:33:18.940 --> 01:33:20.800
it's usually really helpful for the people building

1659
01:33:20.900 --> 01:33:22.040
to be able to refer to that.

1660
01:33:22.140 --> 01:33:24.080
It's almost like you're mapping out the stuff

1661
01:33:24.180 --> 01:33:26.980
they're going to touch, you know?

1662
01:33:27.080 --> 01:33:30.220
And then what I would do is if there is,

1663
01:33:30.320 --> 01:33:33.720
if the appetite hasn't changed, you know what I mean?

1664
01:33:33.820 --> 01:33:36.580
What I would do is I would pull that over,

1665
01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:39.720
and then I would also pull over, by the way,

1666
01:33:39.820 --> 01:33:42.820
here's the list of requirements that we solved for that

1667
01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:44.720
were important to us.

1668
01:33:45.020 --> 01:33:47.120
You know?

1669
01:33:47.220 --> 01:33:50.120
And, well, the framing I would actually also pull over,

1670
01:33:50.220 --> 01:33:51.760
but that's something that we haven't looked at together.

1671
01:33:51.860 --> 01:33:54.400
So this is like, let's say, the poor man's version,

1672
01:33:54.500 --> 01:33:58.940
two-second version of a cleaned up, you know?

1673
01:33:59.040 --> 01:34:02.200
And then if there might be, it might be that you feel

1674
01:34:02.300 --> 01:34:04.600
that you need a high-fidelity mock-up,

1675
01:34:04.700 --> 01:34:07.040
or it might be that you want a wireframe or something,

1676
01:34:07.140 --> 01:34:11.020
you know, to further clarify how anything looks here,

1677
01:34:11.120 --> 01:34:12.680
or it might be that this is enough to run with.

1678
01:34:12.740 --> 01:34:14.640
That's always going to be a different judgment

1679
01:34:14.740 --> 01:34:17.620
call, depending on the project and who you're working with

1680
01:34:17.720 --> 01:34:19.980
and stuff like that.

1681
01:34:20.080 --> 01:34:21.120
That's helpful.

1682
01:34:21.220 --> 01:34:25.680
And this would be just looking at, like,

1683
01:34:25.780 --> 01:34:28.220
the first way is like, the current way at the top

1684
01:34:28.320 --> 01:34:31.860
is just how to start a new chat.

1685
01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:35.200
Now the new way is this option we have here.

1686
01:34:35.300 --> 01:34:38.940
That's like one scope, you know, or however you want to think

1687
01:34:39.040 --> 01:34:40.840
of it, of the project.

1688
01:34:41.540 --> 01:34:45.000
How would you then just kind of stack multiple sets

1689
01:34:45.100 --> 01:34:47.100
of these, essentially, for this one project?

1690
01:34:47.200 --> 01:34:49.440
Or is there just one?

1691
01:34:49.540 --> 01:34:51.540
Are we ever complicating it?

1692
01:34:51.640 --> 01:34:54.080
So are you talking about how the fact

1693
01:34:54.180 --> 01:34:58.920
that you're batching multiple projects together into a cycle?

1694
01:34:59.020 --> 01:34:59.720
No.

1695
01:34:59.820 --> 01:35:00.320
So.

1696
01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:04.860
If you, if you look at the, uh, notion board, like we essentially have like,

1697
01:35:05.340 --> 01:35:08.940
um, the first thing is like, Hey, there's the, the first thing is that there's

1698
01:35:08.940 --> 01:35:11.240
going to be like, I don't know if you call it an affordance or a scope, but

1699
01:35:11.240 --> 01:35:14.040
like, there's, there's starting a new conversation, so there's, this is

1700
01:35:14.040 --> 01:35:18.000
what we've done so far now, like we kind of started, maybe this is getting

1701
01:35:18.000 --> 01:35:23.640
more into tasks and lists of too much in the weeds, and then because of this,

1702
01:35:23.640 --> 01:35:26.940
like, we're also noting that like, we're also going to need updates to push

1703
01:35:26.940 --> 01:35:31.440
notifications because it used to be like a one-to-one, like we message each other.

1704
01:35:31.440 --> 01:35:33.600
Now we've got to notify everybody on the list.

1705
01:35:34.080 --> 01:35:35.180
Um, yes.

1706
01:35:35.340 --> 01:35:37.080
So, so yeah.

1707
01:35:37.080 --> 01:35:45.040
So the way, the way that we usually deal with that is, um, um, uh, okay.

1708
01:35:45.040 --> 01:35:52.980
My, my oversimplification to that helps me is, um, is a shape is one thing.

1709
01:35:53.920 --> 01:36:00.280
And then when we kick off the shape work and we, and we, and it's time to build,

1710
01:36:00.840 --> 01:36:06.320
then we need to have less than the real number is nine or less scopes.

1711
01:36:07.480 --> 01:36:11.080
So this is my like dumb caveman simplicity.

1712
01:36:11.120 --> 01:36:13.420
Like the shape thing is one thing.

1713
01:36:14.080 --> 01:36:17.580
And then when we're building and we've got like order of magnitude,

1714
01:36:17.580 --> 01:36:22.540
10 maximum scopes, that's for anything up to a six week project.

1715
01:36:23.040 --> 01:36:28.980
So, because the thing is that like, um, the, it's the, you have push

1716
01:36:28.980 --> 01:36:32.820
notifications in your head, uh, as like a separate piece of this.

1717
01:36:33.380 --> 01:36:37.580
Um, but really we don't know yet how all these pieces touch each other.

1718
01:36:37.620 --> 01:36:41.720
And, and maybe there's some database schema thing that is involved in multiple

1719
01:36:41.720 --> 01:36:43.420
of these, what feel to be different scopes.

1720
01:36:43.680 --> 01:36:49.080
It's kind of hard to know that at the shaping stage and it kind of doesn't matter yet.

1721
01:36:49.780 --> 01:36:50.080
Okay.

1722
01:36:50.620 --> 01:36:53.740
The, the division into scopes, it's kind of like, we need to get

1723
01:36:53.740 --> 01:36:55.540
the animal to stand on four legs.

1724
01:36:56.040 --> 01:37:00.740
But then the, the, the, the, the, sorry, this is like the, the, the, the very

1725
01:37:00.740 --> 01:37:04.420
unvegetarian friendly example, but like the, the implementation is when the

1726
01:37:04.420 --> 01:37:09.340
butchering happens, you know, of, of like, these are the main dotted lines

1727
01:37:09.340 --> 01:37:11.280
that we're going to cut this thing into.

1728
01:37:11.340 --> 01:37:11.620
Yeah.

1729
01:37:11.780 --> 01:37:18.020
Um, so what I would be thinking about is like, um, as a whole, because the

1730
01:37:18.020 --> 01:37:20.780
thing is, there's a reason why you're building group DMS right now.

1731
01:37:20.780 --> 01:37:26.220
And we haven't gone into framing, um, because for this, that we're just

1732
01:37:26.420 --> 01:37:28.160
diving into a shaping session today.

1733
01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:34.220
But there is a reason that in the framing of why you want group DMS, and there's a

1734
01:37:34.220 --> 01:37:39.520
reason why push notifications like belong in that, because somehow like the whole

1735
01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:41.160
thing, like, isn't complete without it.

1736
01:37:41.280 --> 01:37:41.660
Right.

1737
01:37:42.320 --> 01:37:47.180
So, um, so what I would be thinking about doing here, let's go back now to, let's

1738
01:37:47.180 --> 01:37:49.640
just say that B is where we're happy.

1739
01:37:50.880 --> 01:37:54.420
I'm just going to throw in here, like, there's gotta be a, there's gotta be a

1740
01:37:54.420 --> 01:37:56.880
push notification or what is it?

1741
01:37:56.920 --> 01:37:58.220
Is it new message?

1742
01:37:58.240 --> 01:38:00.280
Is it like for, for a message that was sent?

1743
01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:04.880
Um, yeah, and that was my next question was basically, we're basically just

1744
01:38:04.880 --> 01:38:09.680
going to keep linking these, like, so, you know, exactly for all the pieces.

1745
01:38:09.720 --> 01:38:11.280
It's not a separate board.

1746
01:38:11.780 --> 01:38:12.120
No.

1747
01:38:12.620 --> 01:38:14.720
So like below, exactly.

1748
01:38:14.720 --> 01:38:20.160
Because the thing is this, this thing is the thing that has to fit inside the

1749
01:38:20.160 --> 01:38:20.760
appetite.

1750
01:38:20.820 --> 01:38:24.520
So we want to look at the whole animal and say, like, if the appetite is five

1751
01:38:24.520 --> 01:38:27.180
kilos and the, and the, and the animal weighs 10 kilos, like, what are we going

1752
01:38:27.180 --> 01:38:27.480
to do?

1753
01:38:27.520 --> 01:38:27.920
You know?

1754
01:38:28.580 --> 01:38:28.860
Yeah.

1755
01:38:29.120 --> 01:38:33.260
And so that would be to me when you create the group is how we had thought

1756
01:38:33.260 --> 01:38:36.560
about it was like, you click, like I add all these people to a group, then you

1757
01:38:36.560 --> 01:38:41.180
would get a notification, like, Hey, Bruce has added you and, you know, Ryan

1758
01:38:41.180 --> 01:38:45.940
to do this, this call to this message to kind of like alerts people to pull them

1759
01:38:45.940 --> 01:38:46.520
back in.

1760
01:38:47.220 --> 01:38:48.120
So let's try that.

1761
01:38:48.140 --> 01:38:49.580
Let's let's, so this is perfect.

1762
01:38:49.580 --> 01:38:57.740
So let's just say, um, um, um, group created push notification.

1763
01:39:01.680 --> 01:39:02.380
Um,

1764
01:39:03.880 --> 01:39:08.320
and that is one thing where you tap it and people just, it gets you to that

1765
01:39:08.380 --> 01:39:12.780
screen essentially to the chat screen, which we don't have at the moment.

1766
01:39:13.060 --> 01:39:13.480
Um,

1767
01:39:14.520 --> 01:39:20.360
so there's, there's some, um, uh, message, um, there's, there's some, this

1768
01:39:20.360 --> 01:39:21.720
has some like content, right.

1769
01:39:21.720 --> 01:39:25.860
You know, like, um, uh, yeah.

1770
01:39:26.960 --> 01:39:31.220
And, uh, um, and then, and then basically I'm just going to say tap.

1771
01:39:31.360 --> 01:39:36.020
Um, and, uh, and then that's going to actually take us to what we don't have

1772
01:39:36.020 --> 01:39:37.980
here, but which is the actual chat itself.

1773
01:39:38.180 --> 01:39:38.420
Right.

1774
01:39:38.420 --> 01:39:38.720
Yeah.

1775
01:39:40.160 --> 01:39:45.020
And what we're also, well, let me let you finish this and I'll see how, but

1776
01:39:45.020 --> 01:39:51.680
we're already here when you go, uh, to this guy and we, this also takes me to

1777
01:39:51.680 --> 01:39:54.580
the chat, by the way, when I create the group, that's exactly what I was going

1778
01:39:54.580 --> 01:39:57.960
to do, like, um, it's going to do two things at once.

1779
01:39:57.960 --> 01:39:59.960
And I'm assuming you just do it exactly like you just.

1780
01:40:00.000 --> 01:40:00.960
there, it's just.

1781
01:40:00.960 --> 01:40:04.320
Yeah, I don't mind doing this as a side effect.

1782
01:40:06.440 --> 01:40:08.160
We could do like this.

1783
01:40:08.160 --> 01:40:09.160
You know what I mean?

1784
01:40:09.160 --> 01:40:11.520
Yeah, that's great.

1785
01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:12.680
That doesn't bother me.

1786
01:40:14.040 --> 01:40:16.200
So yeah, so this, I mean, for me,

1787
01:40:16.200 --> 01:40:21.120
this is like when I start to see it all in one circuit board,

1788
01:40:21.120 --> 01:40:22.800
you know, that's where I really kind of feel like,

1789
01:40:22.800 --> 01:40:25.480
oh, I'm getting my arms around it, you know?

1790
01:40:25.480 --> 01:40:28.240
And then also this is where we start to look at this

1791
01:40:28.280 --> 01:40:31.880
contra the appetite that we thought we had.

1792
01:40:31.880 --> 01:40:33.880
And we can also start to see,

1793
01:40:33.880 --> 01:40:35.920
we might feel that we're well within it,

1794
01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:36.920
or we might feel like,

1795
01:40:36.920 --> 01:40:39.920
oh, we're gonna have to have a negotiation around like,

1796
01:40:39.920 --> 01:40:41.640
is as this gets bigger,

1797
01:40:41.640 --> 01:40:43.520
do we still feel it's worth it or not?

1798
01:40:43.520 --> 01:40:46.160
Or do we wanna cut things or whatever, you know?

1799
01:40:47.960 --> 01:40:50.440
I have, by the way, an answer to

1800
01:40:52.880 --> 01:40:54.520
what it looks like at kickoff

1801
01:40:54.520 --> 01:40:56.720
to slice these back into scopes again.

1802
01:40:56.720 --> 01:40:59.720
But you tell me when you feel like you want that, you know?

1803
01:41:01.640 --> 01:41:02.480
That's good.

1804
01:41:02.480 --> 01:41:03.320
That's great.

1805
01:41:03.320 --> 01:41:04.160
Yeah.

1806
01:41:05.920 --> 01:41:08.520
Yeah, I think just seeing the breadboard,

1807
01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:10.400
like you've got to hear the whole thing connected,

1808
01:41:10.400 --> 01:41:12.320
like make sense.

1809
01:41:12.320 --> 01:41:13.160
Yeah.

1810
01:41:15.120 --> 01:41:17.280
What are we missing still?

1811
01:41:17.280 --> 01:41:18.760
It seems like-

1812
01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:20.640
Sending a message.

1813
01:41:20.640 --> 01:41:22.880
Like if we wanted to,

1814
01:41:22.880 --> 01:41:26.240
because the only thing now is in the chat,

1815
01:41:27.320 --> 01:41:28.160
there's some stuff,

1816
01:41:28.160 --> 01:41:30.480
and then you would send a message,

1817
01:41:30.480 --> 01:41:31.800
which would essentially go back

1818
01:41:31.800 --> 01:41:33.200
to send the group notification.

1819
01:41:33.200 --> 01:41:35.080
You just point right back to the-

1820
01:41:35.080 --> 01:41:37.320
But this is a different notification, right?

1821
01:41:38.320 --> 01:41:39.640
It could be.

1822
01:41:39.640 --> 01:41:42.520
Because this notification has a different content, right?

1823
01:41:42.520 --> 01:41:44.000
Like it's...

1824
01:41:44.000 --> 01:41:46.400
So the reason I'm pulling these apart

1825
01:41:46.400 --> 01:41:49.320
is because this could be cut from the scope

1826
01:41:49.320 --> 01:41:52.360
because it has a different function than this does.

1827
01:41:52.760 --> 01:41:54.480
This is telling me that a chat was created,

1828
01:41:54.480 --> 01:41:56.520
but there's nothing to read yet,

1829
01:41:56.520 --> 01:41:57.760
versus this is telling...

1830
01:41:57.760 --> 01:41:58.880
This is like...

1831
01:42:02.040 --> 01:42:02.880
Do you know what I mean?

1832
01:42:02.880 --> 01:42:04.560
Like this is like a different event.

1833
01:42:05.880 --> 01:42:06.720
Yes.

1834
01:42:07.720 --> 01:42:08.560
Or no.

1835
01:42:08.560 --> 01:42:09.600
Do you want to play it a different way?

1836
01:42:09.600 --> 01:42:11.160
There's always a different way to look at it.

1837
01:42:11.160 --> 01:42:13.360
Yeah, and I know, Jenna, you put in the chat,

1838
01:42:13.360 --> 01:42:16.080
like, are we sending them for group creation?

1839
01:42:16.080 --> 01:42:20.360
I think, yeah, I think that makes sense to me.

1840
01:42:20.360 --> 01:42:21.200
Two different things.

1841
01:42:21.200 --> 01:42:22.600
It is the content that's different.

1842
01:42:22.600 --> 01:42:23.440
One is...

1843
01:42:23.440 --> 01:42:24.280
And there are two purposes.

1844
01:42:24.280 --> 01:42:27.120
Like one is serving as a way...

1845
01:42:27.120 --> 01:42:27.960
Well, think of it this way.

1846
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:28.800
One is getting...

1847
01:42:28.800 --> 01:42:30.480
They're both kind of bringing you back to the chat,

1848
01:42:30.480 --> 01:42:31.480
of course.

1849
01:42:31.480 --> 01:42:32.320
That's the whole...

1850
01:42:32.320 --> 01:42:34.400
That's the goal of the notification.

1851
01:42:34.400 --> 01:42:38.520
But one is more info that just,

1852
01:42:40.080 --> 01:42:41.960
more as an FYI, you're added to this chat.

1853
01:42:41.960 --> 01:42:43.560
The other one is there's a new message to see,

1854
01:42:43.560 --> 01:42:46.080
which maybe is a little bit more urgent.

1855
01:42:46.080 --> 01:42:47.880
Yeah, this is also kind of a...

1856
01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:51.720
One of those clean...

1857
01:42:51.720 --> 01:42:52.560
What do you call it?

1858
01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:57.040
It's a hygiene thing that turns into a design advantage.

1859
01:42:57.040 --> 01:43:01.240
So if we always pull the things apart at this step,

1860
01:43:01.240 --> 01:43:06.240
we'll find later when we have like some idea about,

1861
01:43:06.920 --> 01:43:08.720
oh, when the new group is created,

1862
01:43:08.720 --> 01:43:10.520
we actually want you to see something else

1863
01:43:10.520 --> 01:43:12.000
when you land on it.

1864
01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:15.040
Versus when you're like being taken to the latest message,

1865
01:43:15.040 --> 01:43:16.880
we want to like scroll you to the latest message.

1866
01:43:17.280 --> 01:43:20.480
Like you don't know what future features you're gonna have,

1867
01:43:20.480 --> 01:43:23.080
or there's gonna be a notification settings option.

1868
01:43:23.080 --> 01:43:23.920
And it's gonna be like,

1869
01:43:23.920 --> 01:43:25.400
don't notify me when groups are created,

1870
01:43:25.400 --> 01:43:26.240
or I don't know what it is.

1871
01:43:26.240 --> 01:43:27.080
Do you know what I mean?

1872
01:43:27.080 --> 01:43:28.240
But like all those like,

1873
01:43:28.240 --> 01:43:29.880
we're not committing to any more scope,

1874
01:43:29.880 --> 01:43:32.520
but we are getting like clearer entry points

1875
01:43:32.520 --> 01:43:35.680
or clearer like cut points in the map

1876
01:43:35.680 --> 01:43:37.160
of like how stuff is built.

1877
01:43:37.160 --> 01:43:39.520
So it's gonna be easier to make changes later.

1878
01:43:42.560 --> 01:43:46.640
Okay, so there's a new message, push notification.

1879
01:43:47.400 --> 01:43:48.240
For example, by the way,

1880
01:43:48.240 --> 01:43:51.440
these also these might aggregate differently than this.

1881
01:43:51.440 --> 01:43:54.000
So like if I have 10 messages,

1882
01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:56.400
do I get a different,

1883
01:43:56.400 --> 01:44:00.200
do I get 10 notifications or does it wait?

1884
01:44:00.200 --> 01:44:02.080
And then I get like one notification later.

1885
01:44:02.080 --> 01:44:03.360
That's not in scope for right now,

1886
01:44:03.360 --> 01:44:05.000
but that's an example of the kind of thing

1887
01:44:05.000 --> 01:44:10.000
that is relevant here that might not be relevant here.

1888
01:44:10.320 --> 01:44:11.160
Okay.

1889
01:44:12.280 --> 01:44:13.520
Yeah, that's good.

1890
01:44:13.520 --> 01:44:15.080
Yeah, there's not like a summary of like,

1891
01:44:15.080 --> 01:44:18.520
hey, there were seven new messages in the last hour.

1892
01:44:18.520 --> 01:44:21.160
But yes, keep it simple, just one-to-one for now,

1893
01:44:21.160 --> 01:44:23.400
but that's a good distinction.

1894
01:44:24.920 --> 01:44:27.600
And the other thing that happens when a new,

1895
01:44:27.600 --> 01:44:28.920
and sorry, so that's actually,

1896
01:44:28.920 --> 01:44:30.360
yes, when you send a message,

1897
01:44:30.360 --> 01:44:32.040
that would be linked to the new,

1898
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:35.120
there should be, I don't know if there should be a line

1899
01:44:35.120 --> 01:44:36.880
from that message.

1900
01:44:36.880 --> 01:44:37.720
Exactly.

1901
01:44:37.720 --> 01:44:39.080
Well, yeah, the tap is correct.

1902
01:44:39.080 --> 01:44:40.000
Yeah, there you go.

1903
01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:41.200
Yeah.

1904
01:44:41.200 --> 01:44:42.480
And the other thing that happens

1905
01:44:42.480 --> 01:44:47.120
is we also create a notification document

1906
01:44:47.120 --> 01:44:50.720
in the database that says that we have

1907
01:44:50.720 --> 01:44:53.120
like a notification center where they can see,

1908
01:44:54.160 --> 01:44:55.520
in addition to the push notification,

1909
01:44:55.520 --> 01:44:58.680
they can also see like a list of things that have changed.

1910
01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:05.440
I will this is again we're digging into deep because I how I remember it and how it actually is probably different because I think we've

1911
01:45:06.000 --> 01:45:12.320
Um, you know, I can confirm but I think we actually did maybe remove dms. Didn't we from the notification center?

1912
01:45:13.520 --> 01:45:16.960
i'm gonna check I I don't I literally don't even know I have to check it but

1913
01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:21.120
Um, because there would be another the other thing here would be it. Yes. Was that

1914
01:45:23.040 --> 01:45:26.560
Uh, I I need to check as i'm opening it here, but I believe we did

1915
01:45:26.560 --> 01:45:28.000
We did

1916
01:45:28.000 --> 01:45:32.240
We did. Yeah, i'm actually just seeing comments and uh reactions and things there so

1917
01:45:32.880 --> 01:45:34.880
you can ignore that but

1918
01:45:35.120 --> 01:45:37.680
In this case, there was a case where potentially we were putting

1919
01:45:38.640 --> 01:45:40.640
These into their notification center as well

1920
01:45:41.440 --> 01:45:44.560
but then we sort of decide like if they're we simplified it to where

1921
01:45:45.360 --> 01:45:46.560
there's either

1922
01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:50.000
If you're in the app and you're just browsing around like you're just going to see the hey

1923
01:45:50.080 --> 01:45:54.640
I do have some unread messages and that will just cause you to click and then you kind of see all of the

1924
01:45:54.960 --> 01:45:56.960
It seemed a little redundant to have

1925
01:45:57.360 --> 01:45:58.400
like

1926
01:45:58.400 --> 01:46:05.040
Janata has messaged you this and then you know in addition to like push notification in addition to like an unread alert

1927
01:46:05.120 --> 01:46:06.560
It was a little

1928
01:46:06.560 --> 01:46:08.640
Heading into like wolf.com from

1929
01:46:10.080 --> 01:46:12.080
the office

1930
01:46:13.680 --> 01:46:15.680
Yeah, good, okay, um

1931
01:46:16.400 --> 01:46:17.600
uh

1932
01:46:17.600 --> 01:46:19.520
so, um

1933
01:46:19.520 --> 01:46:22.880
my idea of of where to go next is um

1934
01:46:23.760 --> 01:46:25.760
You know, I i'm i'm

1935
01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:27.840
i'm thinking about like

1936
01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:33.520
Where are the ugly edge case things that we're not talking about? So everything so far has been pretty golden path

1937
01:46:34.880 --> 01:46:36.640
um

1938
01:46:36.640 --> 01:46:42.400
Uh, there's one we could add here, which is the renaming of an existing message

1939
01:46:43.360 --> 01:46:45.360
uh

1940
01:46:45.920 --> 01:46:48.560
So instead of sending a message in the chat view

1941
01:46:50.240 --> 01:46:51.360
Um

1942
01:46:51.440 --> 01:46:59.280
That could be another thing here that they like name group or or adding adding a person to an existing chat

1943
01:46:59.840 --> 01:47:01.840
um

1944
01:47:01.920 --> 01:47:05.680
Is a question and I actually list this in like some what I thought may be like some rabbit holes

1945
01:47:06.480 --> 01:47:08.960
Um in the document. Oh, that's a good one

1946
01:47:09.520 --> 01:47:11.520
I wanted to talk about this

1947
01:47:11.520 --> 01:47:16.320
yeah, so the the um, the thing I wanted to mention is um, uh

1948
01:47:18.240 --> 01:47:19.360
The

1949
01:47:19.360 --> 01:47:20.880
the the

1950
01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:22.640
the real way

1951
01:47:22.640 --> 01:47:27.280
So rabbit holes is something I regret the way I explained it in the book because I don't think I was clear

1952
01:47:28.880 --> 01:47:30.080
The um

1953
01:47:30.080 --> 01:47:35.120
The reason for identifying a rabbit hole is so that we can actually solve it in the shaping

1954
01:47:35.600 --> 01:47:40.320
And not that it's called out so that we figure out what to deal with it inside the cycle

1955
01:47:40.400 --> 01:47:44.000
And this is something I didn't make clear enough. So the rabbit hole

1956
01:47:44.960 --> 01:47:50.400
Shouldn't exist when the shaping is over. It should it's it's it's more like um

1957
01:47:50.720 --> 01:47:52.960
Like a work in progress of things

1958
01:47:53.680 --> 01:47:56.240
Yeah, the real the real. Um

1959
01:47:57.040 --> 01:47:59.360
The meaning that I intended but it came out wrong

1960
01:48:00.240 --> 01:48:02.960
Was like here is something to not fall into

1961
01:48:03.920 --> 01:48:06.480
Like kind of because we've already fenced it off

1962
01:48:07.200 --> 01:48:12.000
you know like uh, um, so there's a difference between like, um, uh

1963
01:48:14.400 --> 01:48:17.060
Don't worry about summarizing multiple push notifications

1964
01:48:18.080 --> 01:48:19.280
like

1965
01:48:19.280 --> 01:48:22.640
That just doesn't matter. It's kind of like an out of bounds kind of a thing, you know

1966
01:48:23.040 --> 01:48:27.680
um, or like this could be tricky and if it starts to get tricky just skip it because it's not worth it, you know

1967
01:48:28.080 --> 01:48:31.360
Versus like we actually need to have an answer to this, you know, um

1968
01:48:32.000 --> 01:48:36.320
So what we we really we don't want to feel like there are any rabbit holes at all

1969
01:48:36.640 --> 01:48:41.360
When we're done shaping we want to really feel like anything we could have possibly identified. We already

1970
01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:45.200
Poured concrete into it and and it's solid ground through the whole thing

1971
01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:48.880
That's helpful

1972
01:48:49.600 --> 01:48:54.160
Yeah, we we kind of treated it doesn't matter how we were doing it that sounds like a good plan moving forward

1973
01:48:55.520 --> 01:48:58.560
Yeah, sorry for that one. That's uh, that's a common a common

1974
01:48:59.440 --> 01:49:02.880
A common takeaway from from the book. So I think I didn't get something

1975
01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:07.440
I mean, we we preach the the book like the gospel so you're just changing it on us. It's not big

1976
01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:11.040
I guess that what we believed was totally wrong

1977
01:49:12.080 --> 01:49:13.520
Yeah, that's the hard part of writing a book

1978
01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:17.920
you know what I mean, and especially if you try to write it with a tone of authority, you know what I mean and then

1979
01:49:18.800 --> 01:49:20.800
Um, okay, so that's helpful

1980
01:49:20.880 --> 01:49:23.440
Um, by the way, I love what you just did bruce

1981
01:49:23.440 --> 01:49:28.560
Like there was a I don't know if you were using zoom to do that, but I saw like a circle of pen appear

1982
01:49:28.960 --> 01:49:31.760
Um here when you were talking about renaming the chat

1983
01:49:32.800 --> 01:49:34.960
Yeah, okay. Um, uh

1984
01:49:35.920 --> 01:49:39.840
that's a very very significant benefit of having

1985
01:49:40.960 --> 01:49:45.040
You guys put up with me when I was kind of drawing all this breadboard, you know

1986
01:49:45.120 --> 01:49:48.640
And sometimes it feels a little slow to watch somebody drawing that in a session

1987
01:49:49.040 --> 01:49:53.680
But then you have these moments where it's like so does renaming happen here?

1988
01:49:54.560 --> 01:49:59.920
Or does it happen inside the the conversation list? Like is there a little dot dot dot next to the

1989
01:50:00.000 --> 01:50:03.320
the conversation line item.

1990
01:50:03.320 --> 01:50:04.520
You know what I mean?

1991
01:50:04.520 --> 01:50:08.920
Like, it's like I, for no reason at all,

1992
01:50:08.920 --> 01:50:12.240
I assumed that that's where the edit would happen.

1993
01:50:12.240 --> 01:50:14.880
And then when you circled it over here,

1994
01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:16.640
I was like, oh, that's much better.

1995
01:50:18.320 --> 01:50:20.400
You know, so what I like is that like,

1996
01:50:20.400 --> 01:50:22.400
it's just a nice example of how like,

1997
01:50:22.400 --> 01:50:26.120
we can see our options and like, it's in one circle,

1998
01:50:26.120 --> 01:50:27.720
I already knew exactly where we were

1999
01:50:27.720 --> 01:50:28.760
and what you were describing.

2000
01:50:28.800 --> 01:50:30.480
You know, that's really what we want out of it.

2001
01:50:30.480 --> 01:50:34.840
That's a breadboarding win when we get that kind of speed.

2002
01:50:34.840 --> 01:50:38.200
So does that literally mean we just add an affordance

2003
01:50:38.200 --> 01:50:40.880
to the chat itself, which is renamed?

2004
01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:46.480
Potentially, and just on the, you know,

2005
01:50:46.480 --> 01:50:49.080
for pausing the thing, like from a process standpoint,

2006
01:50:49.080 --> 01:50:53.160
I think it is very helpful that we were all on this,

2007
01:50:53.160 --> 01:50:54.080
doing it live.

2008
01:50:54.080 --> 01:50:57.800
I think if you had done this and then send it in.

2009
01:50:57.800 --> 01:50:58.640
No way, no way.

2010
01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:00.360
Like, you know, there's no way I would have been able,

2011
01:51:00.360 --> 01:51:02.440
because I would open this and it would take me a while

2012
01:51:02.440 --> 01:51:05.480
to try to track your logic.

2013
01:51:05.480 --> 01:51:07.960
So I think we have kind of almost switched

2014
01:51:07.960 --> 01:51:11.280
to like only doing sort of call shape,

2015
01:51:11.280 --> 01:51:13.400
like shaping or framing type calls,

2016
01:51:13.400 --> 01:51:16.800
because it's, we can kind of, you know,

2017
01:51:16.800 --> 01:51:19.760
it knocks it back and forth a bunch faster

2018
01:51:19.760 --> 01:51:22.760
than basically, I think there's a place for that,

2019
01:51:22.760 --> 01:51:23.920
obviously to go do the work

2020
01:51:23.920 --> 01:51:25.960
and let everybody focus on their stuff.

2021
01:51:25.960 --> 01:51:28.720
But the shaping stuff is, it seems very collaborative.

2022
01:51:29.760 --> 01:51:31.080
Absolutely, absolutely.

2023
01:51:31.080 --> 01:51:33.040
Like we're all kind of building the same castle

2024
01:51:33.040 --> 01:51:36.520
in our minds and we're using the map

2025
01:51:36.520 --> 01:51:39.440
to move around the castle that we all have in our heads.

2026
01:51:39.440 --> 01:51:41.640
But what we're, this is just the pointer

2027
01:51:41.640 --> 01:51:43.680
that's moving us to the stuff that's in our heads

2028
01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:44.880
in common right now.

2029
01:51:49.320 --> 01:51:54.000
The async goes really well

2030
01:51:54.040 --> 01:51:56.480
when we have all internalized this.

2031
01:51:56.480 --> 01:51:58.800
And this is like, we have the common reference, you know,

2032
01:51:58.800 --> 01:52:01.040
but when the actual structure of the thing

2033
01:52:01.040 --> 01:52:02.880
is still like under question, you know,

2034
01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:04.840
then it's really hard to do that async.

2035
01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:09.520
That's great.

2036
01:52:09.520 --> 01:52:10.360
This is helpful.

2037
01:52:11.560 --> 01:52:13.400
Okay, so we've got rename.

2038
01:52:13.400 --> 01:52:15.680
Obviously there's gonna be some kind of a,

2039
01:52:18.680 --> 01:52:20.160
like rename this chat.

2040
01:52:20.160 --> 01:52:22.560
It's gonna have to go somewhere, right?

2041
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:25.800
For that to happen.

2042
01:52:25.800 --> 01:52:28.960
Yeah, it could be a simple pop-up with a field

2043
01:52:28.960 --> 01:52:30.840
that you hit save or something.

2044
01:52:32.840 --> 01:52:36.920
I wanna go even further into weird cases.

2045
01:52:36.920 --> 01:52:41.400
So like, if I get added to an existing,

2046
01:52:41.400 --> 01:52:43.800
so how do we add people?

2047
01:52:43.800 --> 01:52:45.680
So we saw a new message

2048
01:52:48.040 --> 01:52:51.320
defining who is in the group of the conversation.

2049
01:52:51.320 --> 01:52:54.840
How do we modify the members of a conversation?

2050
01:52:57.480 --> 01:52:58.960
Can't we?

2051
01:52:58.960 --> 01:53:00.520
Yeah, can we do that?

2052
01:53:01.560 --> 01:53:06.040
And so I wrote these two different options out in the doc,

2053
01:53:06.040 --> 01:53:07.720
which I listed as a rabbit hole,

2054
01:53:07.720 --> 01:53:10.280
but I was like, we either need to go left or right,

2055
01:53:10.280 --> 01:53:13.840
but we could, and to me, the word is adding.

2056
01:53:13.840 --> 01:53:15.720
I'm adding, you know, this person

2057
01:53:15.720 --> 01:53:17.600
to an existing conversation.

2058
01:53:17.600 --> 01:53:18.440
The other thing is like,

2059
01:53:18.440 --> 01:53:20.640
should this person see the history

2060
01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:23.160
of my private conversation with that person?

2061
01:53:23.160 --> 01:53:24.960
And I think to me, it's,

2062
01:53:24.960 --> 01:53:27.280
if I'm having a conversation with you, Ryan,

2063
01:53:27.280 --> 01:53:28.680
and then I add Lucien,

2064
01:53:28.680 --> 01:53:32.560
that feels like now I'm exposing everything we've ever said

2065
01:53:32.560 --> 01:53:34.520
to this history to this new person.

2066
01:53:34.520 --> 01:53:38.240
However, if there's three of us and we add a fourth person,

2067
01:53:38.240 --> 01:53:40.800
to me, that is where it's okay,

2068
01:53:40.800 --> 01:53:43.400
because we're already in a group in some cases.

2069
01:53:43.400 --> 01:53:46.880
Or there's an option, which in Slack, if you do this,

2070
01:53:46.880 --> 01:53:48.240
if you create two or three people

2071
01:53:48.240 --> 01:53:49.720
and then you add a new person, it says,

2072
01:53:49.720 --> 01:53:54.720
hey, do you want to create a new chat entirely?

2073
01:53:54.920 --> 01:53:56.320
Or do you want this person to be able to see,

2074
01:53:56.320 --> 01:53:57.560
and you kind of give them a left or right

2075
01:53:57.560 --> 01:54:02.360
and let the user decide in that moment, you know,

2076
01:54:02.360 --> 01:54:03.200
either one.

2077
01:54:03.200 --> 01:54:06.680
But in Apple messages on the texts,

2078
01:54:06.680 --> 01:54:08.560
like they don't give you that option.

2079
01:54:08.560 --> 01:54:12.040
It's just, you add someone to the conversation,

2080
01:54:12.040 --> 01:54:13.440
they don't see the history.

2081
01:54:13.440 --> 01:54:16.320
They just start seeing from that point on,

2082
01:54:16.320 --> 01:54:19.200
which that to me seems like a much more complicated thing

2083
01:54:19.200 --> 01:54:21.680
of like tracking when this user added to this group

2084
01:54:21.680 --> 01:54:26.040
and then they can only see messages further than this date.

2085
01:54:26.040 --> 01:54:27.360
That seems complicated.

2086
01:54:34.240 --> 01:54:37.160
So I'm just imagining that there's a version of this

2087
01:54:37.160 --> 01:54:42.160
where, so this is again, just kind of,

2088
01:54:42.360 --> 01:54:44.160
I'm externalizing what's going on in my head.

2089
01:54:44.160 --> 01:54:46.520
Like I'm imagining future, you know,

2090
01:54:46.720 --> 01:54:49.680
we're branching the possibilities here.

2091
01:54:49.680 --> 01:54:51.160
So I'm just kind of thinking,

2092
01:54:51.160 --> 01:54:52.440
there's a version of this where new members

2093
01:54:52.440 --> 01:54:54.320
don't see history.

2094
01:54:54.320 --> 01:54:58.080
There's a version of this where new members do see history.

2095
01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:08.740
Yeah, from the notion, uh-huh.

2096
01:55:08.740 --> 01:55:16.740
So this is the thing we're like, we're kind of this belongs over more over here, you know,

2097
01:55:16.740 --> 01:55:20.700
we're kind of in this like requirements land of like what's important and what do we need

2098
01:55:20.700 --> 01:55:22.620
to solve for here.

2099
01:55:22.620 --> 01:55:32.340
Could it also be just a question of affordance, like if when you're adding a member, it says

2100
01:55:32.340 --> 01:55:36.900
like, oh, the person you're adding will see all the messages, so that way the the admin

2101
01:55:36.900 --> 01:55:38.380
is warned.

2102
01:55:38.380 --> 01:55:39.380
Uh-huh.

2103
01:55:39.380 --> 01:55:42.680
So in, uh-huh.

2104
01:55:42.680 --> 01:55:48.140
So in the version, if we if we said that new members do see history, what I'm what I'm

2105
01:55:48.140 --> 01:55:55.100
hearing is there's a warning.

2106
01:55:55.100 --> 01:56:02.960
New members will see the history of the whole chat.

2107
01:56:02.960 --> 01:56:08.280
So if that's, so what I'm going to do here is, now this is a little bit like, I'm a little

2108
01:56:08.280 --> 01:56:12.660
pedantic here, but if you don't mind, like what I like to do is literally take everything

2109
01:56:12.660 --> 01:56:18.460
over because I'm trying to get to, it's just like a git branch, you know, I'm just going

2110
01:56:18.460 --> 01:56:22.820
to branch everything, I'm going to fork everything, and because now I want to understand where

2111
01:56:22.820 --> 01:56:24.780
does this go.

2112
01:56:24.780 --> 01:56:32.180
So we've got the idea that there could be a warning, but we don't have the screen where

2113
01:56:32.180 --> 01:56:37.140
this would appear, right, because we didn't yet talk about modifying the members of an

2114
01:56:37.140 --> 01:56:38.140
existing chat.

2115
01:56:38.140 --> 01:56:43.580
So now we have a new message screen, which we get to from the new message button, which

2116
01:56:43.580 --> 01:56:46.340
is on the top of the conversation list.

2117
01:56:46.340 --> 01:56:48.420
So where would this go?

2118
01:56:48.420 --> 01:56:59.100
I think, like, there's a decision to be taken, like, do we allow adding new members after

2119
01:56:59.100 --> 01:57:00.620
we created the group?

2120
01:57:00.620 --> 01:57:01.620
Uh-huh.

2121
01:57:01.620 --> 01:57:14.340
So there's a whole other fork here, which is like, do I understand right?

2122
01:57:14.340 --> 01:57:20.100
It's almost like you can't add new members, like, make a new conversation.

2123
01:57:20.100 --> 01:57:26.260
Yeah, something like that, and I think it's probably a terrible idea, but just to...

2124
01:57:26.260 --> 01:57:27.260
That's fantastic.

2125
01:57:27.260 --> 01:57:28.260
That's...

2126
01:57:28.260 --> 01:57:32.020
That sounds like a developer solution.

2127
01:57:32.020 --> 01:57:41.100
Just, you know, sorry, conversations are immutable, you know.

2128
01:57:41.100 --> 01:57:45.540
I mean, I've seen, I think we even did that at Basecamp for a while with one of the things

2129
01:57:45.540 --> 01:57:46.540
that we did.

2130
01:57:46.540 --> 01:57:52.180
So it can be, it's one of those things, imagine, I mean, like, imagine you had a customer who

2131
01:57:52.180 --> 01:57:58.860
like literally wouldn't close a deal unless you added group DMs, and you had to get this

2132
01:57:58.860 --> 01:58:02.740
thing done in a week, and you had to start another thing that you already agreed to do,

2133
01:58:02.740 --> 01:58:06.420
like starting the week after, and this thing just, you had to hack your way through it.

2134
01:58:06.420 --> 01:58:08.500
Like it could be, it could be valid, right?

2135
01:58:08.500 --> 01:58:10.980
In some, there might be some universe where that trade-off makes sense.

2136
01:58:10.980 --> 01:58:12.180
So that's cool.

2137
01:58:12.180 --> 01:58:13.180
That's cool to have.

2138
01:58:13.180 --> 01:58:16.260
Guys, which path do you want to spell out?

2139
01:58:16.260 --> 01:58:20.780
Which of these things feels most promising so far?

2140
01:58:21.380 --> 01:58:27.620
There's building out the ability to hide the history from new members, accepting that members

2141
01:58:27.620 --> 01:58:31.900
will, new members will see the old history, and somehow warning them, or maybe putting

2142
01:58:31.900 --> 01:58:36.780
some conditions around when you can add new members, somehow trying to mitigate that,

2143
01:58:36.780 --> 01:58:42.660
or avoiding it entirely and saying we're just gonna make the user list immutable, or remove

2144
01:58:42.660 --> 01:58:43.660
only.

2145
01:58:43.660 --> 01:58:52.900
And this is where we're gonna take into account, it could take like one or two weeks and not

2146
01:58:52.900 --> 01:58:55.740
three.

2147
01:58:55.740 --> 01:59:00.700
So this is a place where if the appetite is hard, it can help you.

2148
01:59:00.700 --> 01:59:04.780
But then this, we're in negotiation space right now.

2149
01:59:04.780 --> 01:59:08.060
So what I would, I would think of this as a negotiation headspace.

2150
01:59:08.060 --> 01:59:14.260
There's an answer if the time limit is immovable, but then there's also a negotiation where

2151
01:59:14.260 --> 01:59:21.420
you can say, Bruce, this is what we see implementation-wise in terms of the complexity of going down what

2152
01:59:21.420 --> 01:59:23.380
seems to be the better path.

2153
01:59:23.380 --> 01:59:24.700
Do you feel that's worth it?

2154
01:59:24.700 --> 01:59:28.220
Do we want to rethink the investment here?

2155
01:59:28.220 --> 01:59:31.300
That's always possible to have the conversation, right?

2156
01:59:31.300 --> 01:59:32.380
It's a different conversation.

2157
01:59:32.380 --> 01:59:35.620
We flip a little bit more into the framing side.

2158
01:59:35.660 --> 01:59:40.260
But just, so what I would say is put everything on the table, knowing that we can go either

2159
01:59:40.260 --> 01:59:41.260
way.

2160
01:59:41.260 --> 01:59:44.460
There's the option that stays inside the limit, and then there's the option that starts to

2161
01:59:44.460 --> 01:59:47.420
stretch the limit, and let's just hear it out.

2162
01:59:47.420 --> 01:59:54.580
Does it make sense then to like, we actually shape what it will look like to add new members

2163
01:59:54.580 --> 01:59:55.580
in the existing conversation?

2164
01:59:55.580 --> 02:00:00.020
Like you just make the new branch, like fill it out, and then we get the idea.

2165
02:00:00.000 --> 02:00:05.840
Yeah let's let's get into a little concreteness yeah so that we understand what we're looking at

2166
02:00:05.840 --> 02:00:11.120
in terms of like what does this mean in terms do I understand right is it kind of like if if we go

2167
02:00:11.120 --> 02:00:16.000
into d here where new members do see the old history and start there and just start fleshing

2168
02:00:16.000 --> 02:00:22.320
out what what does it mean to modify members because I mean to me like when they don't see

2169
02:00:22.320 --> 02:00:27.280
the history that seems the more complex one someone like just say like oh we don't want to

2170
02:00:27.280 --> 02:00:32.480
do that or do we shape it to see like oh it's like a bit more complicated but not that much

2171
02:00:32.480 --> 02:00:38.560
so it's like realistic so so this is your call this is your collective call um the way that I

2172
02:00:38.560 --> 02:00:44.480
like to usually deal with that is to say um where do we want to start so maybe we don't have to make

2173
02:00:44.480 --> 02:00:51.680
a final call right now about which one of these is the answer but we could kind of agree this is

2174
02:00:51.680 --> 02:00:56.400
the path we want to try to flesh out first and see how we feel about it so I like to think about it

2175
02:00:56.400 --> 02:01:02.480
as like just as a group right now which feels the most promising to see if we can make it work first

2176
02:01:03.520 --> 02:01:07.680
what do we like best in terms of fitting all of our requirements and our constraints you know like

2177
02:01:07.680 --> 02:01:10.960
which one of these do we think is worth spelling out because we don't want to spell something out

2178
02:01:10.960 --> 02:01:15.280
if we if we're if we think it's not going to work or it's just going to take more of our time in the

2179
02:01:15.280 --> 02:01:20.560
session right now you know but versus if you think no I want to spell that out because I think it's

2180
02:01:20.560 --> 02:01:24.800
going to be worth it I think there's a way where we can where we could allow you to not see history

2181
02:01:24.800 --> 02:01:30.720
right it's a I hope this doesn't go on too long but let me just give you one other way of thinking

2182
02:01:30.720 --> 02:01:38.480
about this there's a version of this where like the product person says I want us to hide history

2183
02:01:38.480 --> 02:01:44.240
and and the engineers are saying that's going to take too long and the product person says no it's

2184
02:01:44.240 --> 02:01:52.960
not it's going to be fine in that case we have to go back to framing like why is it so important that

2185
02:01:52.960 --> 02:01:59.040
they don't see history oh yeah I would play it the other side actually if if the product

2186
02:01:59.040 --> 02:02:02.720
person is saying I don't believe you that it's going to take too long and I still want it

2187
02:02:03.600 --> 02:02:10.560
then then what what what I often find works well is to say let's go into more concreteness

2188
02:02:10.560 --> 02:02:16.000
because it sounds easy if we just say it right so then if we if we actually together try to

2189
02:02:16.000 --> 02:02:22.000
if product is saying I want C and engineering is saying I don't feel very good about that

2190
02:02:22.720 --> 02:02:29.840
a good way for engineering to to to react to that is to spell out the truth so like let's see the

2191
02:02:29.840 --> 02:02:34.560
facts and then if we actually spell it out together just like we kind of when we were

2192
02:02:34.560 --> 02:02:40.480
unpacking what VO did the complexity showed itself you know it's like the same technique

2193
02:02:41.520 --> 02:02:46.960
like I don't want to argue with the product person about what they want I want it my my my role from

2194
02:02:46.960 --> 02:02:51.520
the engineering side is to put the facts on the table in a way that we can all see them and then

2195
02:02:51.520 --> 02:02:57.200
we can together make a decision about what's you know what I mean like what we want to do right so

2196
02:02:57.200 --> 02:03:01.360
that's a case where we could say let's start with C and let's spell it out to understand how bad it

2197
02:03:01.360 --> 02:03:08.960
really is right versus if if if product is saying I don't know it would be nice if we could not see

2198
02:03:08.960 --> 02:03:14.400
the history but if we if they have to see the history and we warn them it's probably we could

2199
02:03:14.400 --> 02:03:18.640
probably live with that then you might be saying well I already think that that's less scope and

2200
02:03:18.640 --> 02:03:22.320
that's more attractive so let's try and spell that out and see if we can align on that

2201
02:03:24.880 --> 02:03:29.920
yeah I think we I remember on Wednesday we did talk about this concept and I remember

2202
02:03:29.920 --> 02:03:35.600
Junauda just saying potentially we just start like basically if there's two people chatting

2203
02:03:35.600 --> 02:03:40.560
and we started at a person we essentially just start a new conversation and leave that other

2204
02:03:40.560 --> 02:03:47.040
one behind essentially so creating a duplicate um just getting more into the weeds of like

2205
02:03:47.040 --> 02:03:56.080
how to build it less of like what the user but this uh I mean yes this this would be the case

2206
02:03:56.080 --> 02:04:01.840
anyway because if two persons are talking then just two of them see the history and if you add

2207
02:04:01.840 --> 02:04:07.520
another one then this is a group I believe in this case we shouldn't show the the user the history

2208
02:04:07.520 --> 02:04:14.320
and we can create a new conversation which is easy but my question is more about now what from

2209
02:04:14.320 --> 02:04:19.120
all the other users like we are we creating a new group for each new user because this is the way

2210
02:04:19.120 --> 02:04:25.840
for us to hide the history in case of adding like multiple users so I'm my question is more like not

2211
02:04:25.840 --> 02:04:33.200
from two to three but from three yeah yeah yeah so that's really interesting that there's a there's a

2212
02:04:33.200 --> 02:04:37.360
the two to three and the three to end cases are different and by the way that's great language

2213
02:04:37.360 --> 02:04:41.840
um uh what I want to do is I'm going to capture that language in a requirement because that's

2214
02:04:42.400 --> 02:04:48.400
by the way rename existing chat we solved um so um two to three

2215
02:04:50.800 --> 02:04:58.400
um we we we don't we don't want to share history

2216
02:05:00.000 --> 02:05:07.000
the history will be hidden and we will create a new conversation, but we have to decide what we will do.

2217
02:05:07.000 --> 02:05:14.500
But 3DN people, this is where we don't understand what the requirement is, right?

2218
02:05:14.500 --> 02:05:19.500
We don't understand what the requirement is here, but what's interesting is we do understand about this requirement.

2219
02:05:19.500 --> 02:05:35.500
So, if we wanted to flip back to the solution space, there is already a version of like, does it mean, so let's say, sorry, I'm going to go down here.

2220
02:05:35.500 --> 02:05:45.500
Let's say that there is change members of this group DM screen, you know.

2221
02:05:45.500 --> 02:05:51.500
There's a version of this where like, you don't even see this.

2222
02:05:51.500 --> 02:05:56.500
You can't even get to here if a chat is, so here I'm going to rename this.

2223
02:05:56.500 --> 02:06:00.500
I'm going to call this a one-to-one chat.

2224
02:06:00.500 --> 02:06:05.500
I'm going to say a one-to-one chat literally doesn't have this affordance, right?

2225
02:06:05.500 --> 02:06:16.500
But a one-to-end chat, or I'm sorry, that's a, well, whatever, like, let's call it a group chat.

2226
02:06:16.500 --> 02:06:21.500
Yeah, two or more.

2227
02:06:21.500 --> 02:06:34.500
We're going to inherit, plus we're going to have change members.

2228
02:06:35.500 --> 02:06:40.500
And then from change members, so we don't even have to do like a branch of logic exactly.

2229
02:06:40.500 --> 02:06:49.500
I mean, like, there is, but I mean, like, it's kind of baked into the conception that this is a group chat, this is a different animal.

2230
02:06:49.500 --> 02:06:58.500
And then this would be the place for the warning, because we're here in new members do see history.

2231
02:06:58.500 --> 02:07:02.500
This would be the place for the warning.

2232
02:07:03.500 --> 02:07:04.500
I'm sorry.

2233
02:07:04.500 --> 02:07:06.500
Yeah.

2234
02:07:06.500 --> 02:07:16.500
And of course we have unknown UI for how this actually happens.

2235
02:07:16.500 --> 02:07:27.500
And can I just, one thing that it's kind of a self-solving problem, like if we do this option, which we're currently at, like they do see the history and we just warn them, that is smart.

2236
02:07:27.500 --> 02:07:31.500
I think if there is the case where like, hey, I actually don't want this person.

2237
02:07:31.500 --> 02:07:34.500
Well, in that case, you just create a new chat, a new group.

2238
02:07:34.500 --> 02:07:39.500
Like it's, we've given the users a way out to do this.

2239
02:07:39.500 --> 02:07:40.500
Okay.

2240
02:07:40.500 --> 02:07:44.500
So if they're like, you know, they essentially can solve it themselves.

2241
02:07:45.500 --> 02:07:46.500
And I think that's pretty intuitive.

2242
02:07:46.500 --> 02:07:54.500
Like I, if I'm, I put it in my text messages, I've created a family chat, you know, with my family members.

2243
02:07:54.500 --> 02:07:59.500
And now I just want one with just, you know, the guys in our group, in our family.

2244
02:07:59.500 --> 02:08:04.500
I'm not, you know, I'm going to, I'm not going to try to get, you know, frustrated with this.

2245
02:08:04.500 --> 02:08:06.500
I just like that to me is a new chat.

2246
02:08:06.500 --> 02:08:10.500
Like it's a different set of people, even though it's a subset of existing people.

2247
02:08:10.500 --> 02:08:11.500
Yes.

2248
02:08:11.500 --> 02:08:12.500
I want them to see.

2249
02:08:12.500 --> 02:08:24.500
So it kind of may potentially like the easier, you know, because we can kind of think like in reality, it may be pretty, pretty obvious to people.

2250
02:08:24.500 --> 02:08:35.500
And that's where we do want it to feel obvious because it's when we, it's when we miss some of the stuff and just as talking it through in the last two hours, obviously we've gotten a ton of clarity.

2251
02:08:35.500 --> 02:08:45.500
You can see how easy it could have been to really confuse people with these little, little changes of assumptions that we're making because people assume it's going to happen one way.

2252
02:08:45.500 --> 02:08:50.500
And what's actually happening now is we're going to build it once and then two weeks from now we're going to ship it.

2253
02:08:50.500 --> 02:09:01.500
And then everybody's going to come back with a bug fix of like, Hey, when I hit this, they can see my history or Hey, when I hit this, like, hit the button, because they're assuming it is going to show the history where it's not going to show the history.

2254
02:09:02.500 --> 02:09:13.500
And if we haven't really thought this through, we can just now we're just like, and I think a lot of our reactive work is, is just patching things that weren't fully developed.

2255
02:09:13.500 --> 02:09:21.500
And totally laughing because he's, we know, we already know this, but like that now we can kind of see a little bit more of like, we know what the problem is.

2256
02:09:21.500 --> 02:09:26.500
We didn't know what the solution was. I think this is to me is the solution we're seeing here today.

2257
02:09:26.500 --> 02:09:28.500
So, yes.

2258
02:09:28.500 --> 02:09:40.500
Awesome. I love that. No, I love that. How like, like, like spelling it out, making it clear. It not only gives us the answer about how we're handling a certain case, but it's also giving the user much more clarity around what's going on.

2259
02:09:40.500 --> 02:09:51.500
It's like setting clear expectations all around, like the design itself is just clear and it like radiates that clarity in all directions like implementation wise usage wise all of that. I love that.

2260
02:09:51.500 --> 02:09:59.500
It builds confidence, I'll just say like with the team as well because in this case, we're all confident we're all on the same page, it's easy but when we've got that third party.

2261
02:10:00.000 --> 02:10:07.480
of the client and for the customer, we then can say, look, we, sure, yeah, let's, let's

2262
02:10:07.480 --> 02:10:08.800
talk about this other option.

2263
02:10:08.800 --> 02:10:09.800
We actually thought about it.

2264
02:10:09.800 --> 02:10:14.880
Here's this reasons why, you know, it builds confidence and to sort of defend our viewpoint

2265
02:10:14.880 --> 02:10:17.560
more than just, oh, that's a different suggestion.

2266
02:10:17.560 --> 02:10:18.560
Let's go B or C.

2267
02:10:18.560 --> 02:10:19.560
Yeah, totally.

2268
02:10:19.560 --> 02:10:24.760
And so I think we have some clients, I know Chris has, I don't know if he's listening,

2269
02:10:24.760 --> 02:10:29.800
we have clients that are, is we've had some real problems with, with this and like, it's

2270
02:10:29.800 --> 02:10:32.880
just kind of, oh, okay, Chris.

2271
02:10:32.880 --> 02:10:33.880
Yeah.

2272
02:10:33.880 --> 02:10:38.880
But just, you know, us doing version one, then it's like dot one, dot two, dot three.

2273
02:10:38.880 --> 02:10:42.320
We're just iterating on these tweaks that we never really fully thought about it because

2274
02:10:42.320 --> 02:10:45.800
it, you know, anyway, so we're trying to get out of that.

2275
02:10:45.800 --> 02:10:46.800
Yeah, exactly.

2276
02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:50.680
Yeah, that's, no, that's fantastic.

2277
02:10:50.680 --> 02:10:54.360
And so like the general, I mean, I think you already getting this, but the, the, the sort

2278
02:10:54.360 --> 02:11:04.040
of the sort of trick is when we when we feel like, oh, it could be this, could be that

2279
02:11:04.040 --> 02:11:11.280
we more concreteness helps us to align on which one of these things is actually going

2280
02:11:11.280 --> 02:11:14.260
to work out better.

2281
02:11:14.260 --> 02:11:15.400
So it's the leaning in.

2282
02:11:15.400 --> 02:11:20.420
So like the whole thing we've been doing in the last two hours is just getting more concrete

2283
02:11:20.420 --> 02:11:22.660
around what the idea actually is, right?

2284
02:11:22.660 --> 02:11:23.740
How do we get to that?

2285
02:11:23.740 --> 02:11:24.740
What happens when this happens?

2286
02:11:24.740 --> 02:11:25.740
Like, you know what I mean?

2287
02:11:25.740 --> 02:11:27.180
How is it all connected?

2288
02:11:27.180 --> 02:11:32.620
And then like, when we all see the concreteness, it gets easier to also align on, on not just

2289
02:11:32.620 --> 02:11:36.780
be because I like to be better, but like, there's all of these reasons, right?

2290
02:11:36.780 --> 02:11:40.580
There's all these like constraints, there's all these like requirements that we, we really

2291
02:11:40.580 --> 02:11:45.900
worked through and it becomes much more clear that this is the answer.

2292
02:11:45.900 --> 02:11:48.860
In line with that, I wanted to go back to our requirements because I understand them

2293
02:11:48.860 --> 02:11:51.060
better now.

2294
02:11:51.060 --> 02:11:58.820
What I, what I understood was what Janata kind of, or no, I think it was Lucien, gave

2295
02:11:58.820 --> 02:12:03.900
us, let me just, I want to rewrite this.

2296
02:12:03.900 --> 02:12:10.580
The real requirements here that the system, like what we agreed is important is like one

2297
02:12:10.580 --> 02:12:22.100
to one, actually, we never share history in any case.

2298
02:12:22.100 --> 02:12:43.380
So like one-to-one convos always stay one-to-one and

2299
02:12:43.380 --> 02:12:47.180
it's funny, like this isn't exactly a requirement that's hard to meet because it's kind of like

2300
02:12:47.180 --> 02:12:51.020
relaxing a requirement, but it's just like such an important decision that we came up

2301
02:12:51.020 --> 02:12:57.900
with.

2302
02:12:57.900 --> 02:13:01.620
This is just like my, this was just kind of what was in my head is that like, this feels

2303
02:13:01.620 --> 02:13:06.420
like something just like very important and fundamental that like, one-to-one chats are

2304
02:13:06.420 --> 02:13:08.660
a different beast in this product.

2305
02:13:08.660 --> 02:13:11.580
You know what I mean?

2306
02:13:11.580 --> 02:13:15.260
It's not just like a state, they literally have like a totally different rule, which

2307
02:13:15.260 --> 02:13:17.460
is like the history will never be shared.

2308
02:13:17.460 --> 02:13:19.060
You can't add other people to them.

2309
02:13:19.060 --> 02:13:31.380
It's like, feels like a really meaningful design decision versus like

2310
02:13:31.380 --> 02:13:40.940
members of group chats can change, not even, not even can, I mean, we're saying that they

2311
02:13:40.940 --> 02:13:46.140
should be able to change.

2312
02:13:46.140 --> 02:14:02.900
And members of new members to groups are, let's

2313
02:14:02.900 --> 02:14:24.900
see, I'm just trying to say that like on group chats, when, when adding and everybody

2314
02:14:24.900 --> 02:14:31.460
knows it more or less, something like that, like I'm just kind of trying to capture, like

2315
02:14:31.460 --> 02:14:38.180
this is a solution, you know, and the solution is just like the, how it works.

2316
02:14:38.180 --> 02:14:40.980
But like, these are kind of like, these are like the really hard things that we wrestled

2317
02:14:40.980 --> 02:14:46.220
over that are kind of like decisions about like the values that, you know, like the,

2318
02:14:46.220 --> 02:14:47.980
these are like the more like the value judgment things.

2319
02:14:47.980 --> 02:14:49.540
So I just find it helpful.

2320
02:14:49.540 --> 02:14:54.780
This is something that we will very likely come back to when we're packaging this or

2321
02:14:54.780 --> 02:14:56.660
when a team is working on it or whatever.

2322
02:14:56.660 --> 02:14:58.660
So I just wanted to have it spelled out there.

2323
02:14:58.660 --> 02:14:59.660
Okay.

2324
02:14:59.660 --> 02:15:00.020
Thanks for.

2325
02:15:00.000 --> 02:15:02.000
entertaining that

2326
02:15:03.520 --> 02:15:05.520
Where are we Lucien

2327
02:15:06.360 --> 02:15:09.360
This is really good. I'm on board with all of this is really great

2328
02:15:09.360 --> 02:15:15.100
And I also want to like throw a wrench into the whole thing. Okay, just based on the like

2329
02:15:19.880 --> 02:15:24.620
Because our current structure is like there's a conversation we have a list of users so far so good

2330
02:15:24.620 --> 02:15:30.220
We'll have like one-on-one conversations. Just there's two users. What if we start a group conversation?

2331
02:15:30.220 --> 02:15:36.640
There are three users. We remove one. Does it now become like one-on-one conversation? You can't add anyone back

2332
02:15:37.660 --> 02:15:44.540
That's gonna be like and then the app just explodes and do you think that's that's exactly the kind of thing

2333
02:15:44.540 --> 02:15:47.780
We want to surface right now. Fantastic. So what do you guys think?

2334
02:15:48.780 --> 02:15:54.740
And also do they will have access to the history of being removed like that's one question as well

2335
02:15:55.380 --> 02:15:58.860
Mm-hmm. Yeah, they did. What if they get removed and added back?

2336
02:16:03.860 --> 02:16:07.820
When you remove this user this will become like a one-on-one conversation

2337
02:16:07.820 --> 02:16:14.180
Oh, you will no longer be able to add anyone back sounds wordy. But like that could be a workaround. We just like

2338
02:16:14.700 --> 02:16:16.700
We just like

2339
02:16:16.700 --> 02:16:18.700
I I almost wonder

2340
02:16:18.740 --> 02:16:24.700
like if on the data structure we because I love that Ryan you said that these are like really two different things and I

2341
02:16:24.700 --> 02:16:26.700
almost see us having like a

2342
02:16:27.380 --> 02:16:33.420
Conversation type field is what type of conversation is this a personal DM or is it a group?

2343
02:16:33.420 --> 02:16:34.379
So once it's a group

2344
02:16:34.379 --> 02:16:40.020
it's always a group and we can add down to two and back to three because Lucien think of it in the case where like

2345
02:16:40.500 --> 02:16:42.500
There are three of us. I

2346
02:16:42.580 --> 02:16:46.219
Remove one person and then I just want to add them back in that moment of me

2347
02:16:46.780 --> 02:16:51.860
Removing that one person then we're trying to get them back. Now. I've just lost the ability. That would be super confusing

2348
02:16:51.860 --> 02:16:53.860
I think if someone

2349
02:16:54.020 --> 02:16:58.219
In that process, but just like a little like text field, you know, you know

2350
02:16:58.540 --> 02:17:03.580
Yeah, just like when you're like in bed like first screen like create new chat

2351
02:17:04.100 --> 02:17:08.020
Then it's just like automatically set based on how many members you put

2352
02:17:08.860 --> 02:17:13.219
And maybe it's just to the group group type stay the same sorry, sorry good

2353
02:17:14.620 --> 02:17:20.700
No, and what happens to the group once I'm removed like I will not be able to see the group anymore

2354
02:17:20.700 --> 02:17:23.700
or I'll be able to see all the message that I

2355
02:17:24.260 --> 02:17:31.379
Kind of saw when I was in the group like how we handle that. That's another question. I think you're kicked out like

2356
02:17:32.219 --> 02:17:34.219
Yeah

2357
02:17:34.459 --> 02:17:36.459
First because

2358
02:17:38.459 --> 02:17:44.940
The way our conversation is currently set we either are on the conversation or out of the conversation

2359
02:17:44.940 --> 02:17:51.420
so if we remove the user remove the won't be able to see any history at least that would be like the

2360
02:17:52.459 --> 02:17:56.740
Default implementation or easier implementation considering our current database

2361
02:17:58.459 --> 02:18:04.700
Because if we need the user to be able to see the message of being removed then we have to add

2362
02:18:04.940 --> 02:18:07.740
This information to the message itself like

2363
02:18:08.100 --> 02:18:14.740
these users saw this message and then we need to keep all the groups even if you are removed and show like it's a

2364
02:18:15.379 --> 02:18:23.740
Yeah, I think it if we keep the conversation the same like once you create that conversation as a group or it becomes

2365
02:18:24.139 --> 02:18:26.139
a group type

2366
02:18:26.139 --> 02:18:31.940
Then it's just you either in that group or you're out of the group which make it feels more like a channel like in slack

2367
02:18:31.940 --> 02:18:35.740
there's a channel first like if there's three of us in a DM because

2368
02:18:35.900 --> 02:18:40.700
to make it more complicated slack has the ability to have a DM with four people and

2369
02:18:40.940 --> 02:18:44.940
Then that's very confusing or you can have a channel and two channels like something that stays

2370
02:18:45.059 --> 02:18:47.379
Consistent the whole time and people come in and out of it

2371
02:18:47.580 --> 02:18:51.900
But I don't think people would be surprised if I got removed from a group

2372
02:18:51.900 --> 02:18:57.500
I don't think I would expect to see the history of that chat like after being removed. That seems pretty reasonable

2373
02:18:58.100 --> 02:19:00.100
It's a really interesting

2374
02:19:02.260 --> 02:19:05.700
You know channel versus chat is also interesting

2375
02:19:05.700 --> 02:19:12.100
So we started to lean into this idea of like types and it's it is interesting to think about like is like coaching group

2376
02:19:12.660 --> 02:19:16.020
one is it more like a channel or is it more like a

2377
02:19:17.860 --> 02:19:24.580
Five people in iMessage that's that's interesting. Okay. I'm gonna resist giving opinions on the

2378
02:19:24.620 --> 02:19:28.580
Concept here, but if you give opinions and we can blame you later when it doesn't

2379
02:19:31.580 --> 02:19:33.580
But Ryan said

2380
02:19:33.780 --> 02:19:36.260
So one thing I heard here

2381
02:19:36.260 --> 02:19:40.900
So they're kind of a bunch of stuff all just appeared at the same time which is kind of by the way

2382
02:19:40.900 --> 02:19:46.500
Also a good sign of a productive shaving session is that you've suddenly hit this like fountain of like what about this and what?

2383
02:19:46.500 --> 02:19:48.500
About that and what about this, you know?

2384
02:19:48.540 --> 02:19:49.980
so

2385
02:19:49.980 --> 02:19:53.740
I'm just I'm just writing

2386
02:20:00.000 --> 02:20:12.000
These are the two questions that just came up, and one thing I heard, I want to figure out if we can actually put it into the design,

2387
02:20:12.000 --> 02:20:19.000
is this idea that these are actually different types, and they don't magically become each other according to,

2388
02:20:19.000 --> 02:20:25.000
that the behaviors aren't inferred by the number of members, but they're actually different animals.

2389
02:20:25.000 --> 02:20:34.000
If that was the case, then I would think that we could say, on the back end, when you create a group,

2390
02:20:34.000 --> 02:20:52.000
I'm just going to write like, if more than two people, this is like create a, I don't know what to write here, you'll have better language,

2391
02:20:52.000 --> 02:21:01.000
I'm just saying create a group type conversation, and here I'm saying, if one-to-one, create a one-to-one convo,

2392
02:21:01.000 --> 02:21:10.000
just to show that on the back end these are different things, which is then also quite fitting, by the way, that they go to different destinations,

2393
02:21:10.000 --> 02:21:23.000
so it's also kind of nice that we can see that. Is this, do you want to accept this and keep going, or Lucia and Gennady,

2394
02:21:23.000 --> 02:21:27.000
do you want to push back on this typing?

2395
02:21:27.000 --> 02:21:30.000
No, I think it works.

2396
02:21:30.000 --> 02:21:39.000
Okay, so then that would mean that this, groups can't become one-on-ones,

2397
02:21:40.000 --> 02:21:48.000
then this is, you know, this is actually handled, we're over in D now, but I'm just going to mark that's handled.

2398
02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:52.000
I'm going to delete this because it's captured over there.

2399
02:21:52.000 --> 02:21:57.000
So what about this, when someone is removed, do they no longer see the chat?

2400
02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:09.000
I would be thinking of example four, like, is there a reason why you would remove somebody, in your domain,

2401
02:22:09.000 --> 02:22:15.000
so not thinking about chats and stuff like that, but like in your domain,

2402
02:22:15.000 --> 02:22:22.000
Bruce, you were describing like what the name of the group chat would be kind of based on the domain, you know,

2403
02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:29.000
like, is there a reason for adding and removing? Is there like some, like, believable frequent,

2404
02:22:29.000 --> 02:22:34.000
like, how does this feel in terms of super edge case versus not according to like the use case,

2405
02:22:34.000 --> 02:22:38.000
that why people are actually using these group DMs?

2406
02:22:38.000 --> 02:22:46.000
Yeah, so, I mean, the context, and this is maybe some of the framing pieces of this when we came,

2407
02:22:46.000 --> 02:22:51.000
so the context is like, we weren't sitting around and we're like, you know what would be great group DMs,

2408
02:22:51.000 --> 02:22:54.000
like, that would just really make our lives that much better.

2409
02:22:54.000 --> 02:22:59.000
This comes, obviously, from our clients, because we have, our clients have their own tribe apps,

2410
02:22:59.000 --> 02:23:05.000
and then they have their own, you know, users, so they each may have a few thousand members that they're each managing.

2411
02:23:05.000 --> 02:23:12.000
So this has been kind of a common thread, people are coming, they're using Slack as, you know,

2412
02:23:12.000 --> 02:23:19.000
we had a client who was spending, you know, 70, 80 grand a year on their Slack account.

2413
02:23:20.000 --> 02:23:25.000
I did try to send them to the, whatever, yeah.

2414
02:23:25.000 --> 02:23:27.000
Yeah, the self-hosted campfire, good luck.

2415
02:23:27.000 --> 02:23:33.000
The self-hosted, yeah, so I was like, this is, there's better solutions, but they're coming from Slack,

2416
02:23:33.000 --> 02:23:38.000
and so everything is relative to, well, in Slack, we used to do this, and in this, we used to do that.

2417
02:23:38.000 --> 02:23:42.000
So that's the context of what I, so I'm kind of using Slack as my reference.

2418
02:23:42.000 --> 02:23:48.000
Also, we, whether we like it or not, like, we, our teams and our clients use Slack most of the time,

2419
02:23:48.000 --> 02:23:50.000
so that's kind of our world.

2420
02:23:50.000 --> 02:23:57.000
Why not stay on, how is this your problem?

2421
02:23:57.000 --> 02:24:00.000
Just to stay in the frame for a moment here, you know what I mean?

2422
02:24:00.000 --> 02:24:04.000
Like, why is this your problem that now you have to build a feature because of this?

2423
02:24:04.000 --> 02:24:06.000
That's a great question.

2424
02:24:06.000 --> 02:24:10.000
I should have said that to them.

2425
02:24:10.000 --> 02:24:16.000
I mean, so the client is asking for it?

2426
02:24:16.000 --> 02:24:23.000
So I think the context is, so it's coaching clients that typically came from a Facebook group,

2427
02:24:23.000 --> 02:24:31.000
and so in this world of coaching and kind of higher ticket 5, 15, 20K offers,

2428
02:24:31.000 --> 02:24:34.000
these are sort of tools that become necessary.

2429
02:24:34.000 --> 02:24:39.000
Like Facebook, you kind of outgrow Facebook's community feed, and now they want structured content,

2430
02:24:39.000 --> 02:24:43.000
and then part of it is that you end up getting a personal coach at some of these higher levels.

2431
02:24:43.000 --> 02:24:46.000
So then I have now, like, a small group of my personal coach.

2432
02:24:46.000 --> 02:24:51.000
So the DM solution was great because, like, hey, here's your personal coach.

2433
02:24:51.000 --> 02:24:53.000
You can message them any time.

2434
02:24:53.000 --> 02:24:57.000
And so our clients, of course, just go and, like, pull.

2435
02:24:57.000 --> 02:24:59.000
Remember, they're not super technical,

2436
02:24:59.000 --> 02:25:00.000
so they just.

2437
02:25:00.000 --> 02:25:01.840
They have a Facebook group over here.

2438
02:25:01.840 --> 02:25:03.280
They have a course in Kajabi.

2439
02:25:03.280 --> 02:25:05.880
They have, you know, a Slack account over here.

2440
02:25:06.120 --> 02:25:09.320
And so when they, when we come in, we're like, Hey, most of this can be covered

2441
02:25:09.320 --> 02:25:12.520
by this one single app that's kind of designed exactly for you.

2442
02:25:12.960 --> 02:25:15.600
Um, that's where they face the DM.

2443
02:25:15.920 --> 02:25:19.120
So you're, uh, look, did I understand right?

2444
02:25:19.120 --> 02:25:22.920
Like your value prop is like, get rid of all this, like, like this, this, this,

2445
02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:24.360
and this, and like do it all with us.

2446
02:25:25.080 --> 02:25:25.280
Yeah.

2447
02:25:25.280 --> 02:25:29.120
It's, it's kind of the, the base camp, like solution of, of, you know, it

2448
02:25:29.120 --> 02:25:31.560
replaces a bunch of tools in one.

2449
02:25:31.880 --> 02:25:36.480
If they, if, if they have to stay in Slack and continue to use you with Slack,

2450
02:25:36.520 --> 02:25:39.600
that's, can you describe the way that that is bad for you?

2451
02:25:40.360 --> 02:25:43.040
Cause I can feel that it is, but like, can you just spell it out?

2452
02:25:43.760 --> 02:25:49.280
So, and I go to go to the, the end user experience is like, um, they're having

2453
02:25:49.280 --> 02:25:51.560
like one account for, for, for this thing.

2454
02:25:51.560 --> 02:25:54.040
Now they have to also go to do another app to kind of have this

2455
02:25:54.040 --> 02:25:56.440
conversation with their, with their coach.

2456
02:25:56.760 --> 02:25:59.120
Um, it's not terrible.

2457
02:25:59.360 --> 02:26:01.600
One thing that makes it value is there already.

2458
02:26:02.120 --> 02:26:06.360
Um, so cost is, is, would be on the client side.

2459
02:26:06.360 --> 02:26:07.000
That would be a negative.

2460
02:26:07.000 --> 02:26:11.520
Doesn't affect me, but the cost, um, side would be bad for them.

2461
02:26:12.200 --> 02:26:17.960
Um, at the core of it, like we are helping like coach, mentor,

2462
02:26:18.000 --> 02:26:21.320
disciple people in a very like small, we know that that's very effect.

2463
02:26:21.360 --> 02:26:24.520
What's happening like right in this call right now, it's like a small group of

2464
02:26:24.560 --> 02:26:26.840
people and go very far, go deep.

2465
02:26:27.320 --> 02:26:29.800
Um, this would be hard if there was a hundred people or we're

2466
02:26:29.800 --> 02:26:30.880
live streaming it, right?

2467
02:26:31.640 --> 02:26:35.360
So, um, we know that this connect like certain types of connections

2468
02:26:35.360 --> 02:26:36.800
happen in these smaller groups.

2469
02:26:37.240 --> 02:26:40.760
And so, because these groups, some of our tribes and our groups are, you

2470
02:26:40.760 --> 02:26:44.320
know, a thousand members in a particular group, they're not getting that, that

2471
02:26:44.320 --> 02:26:47.480
high touch, uh, that, you know, connection to coaches.

2472
02:26:47.760 --> 02:26:51.440
So this is one way that we can really kind of go back to our mission of like

2473
02:26:51.440 --> 02:26:54.200
creating these smaller spaces for people to connect.

2474
02:26:54.680 --> 02:26:58.160
Um, the alternative right now would be to create an entirely separate group

2475
02:26:58.160 --> 02:27:00.840
for this coaching cohort, which we have a key spire.

2476
02:27:00.840 --> 02:27:02.920
One of our clients is doing that.

2477
02:27:02.920 --> 02:27:04.840
They have, they have just a bunch of groups.

2478
02:27:04.880 --> 02:27:09.040
And so you have some of these groups with 10, 20 people in, um, cause,

2479
02:27:09.040 --> 02:27:10.240
cause this isn't really a solution.

2480
02:27:10.240 --> 02:27:12.280
So there people have kind of found ways around it.

2481
02:27:12.920 --> 02:27:16.920
Um, and this is one of those things like, would we spend six weeks on this?

2482
02:27:17.160 --> 02:27:18.680
No, we would not spend six weeks on it.

2483
02:27:18.840 --> 02:27:21.640
You know, it's not worth that much to us, but we could kind of

2484
02:27:21.640 --> 02:27:23.120
see a way with a week or two.

2485
02:27:23.160 --> 02:27:28.960
Like this actually opens up a lot with very minimal effort and time investment.

2486
02:27:29.560 --> 02:27:29.920
I see.

2487
02:27:29.920 --> 02:27:36.000
So, so it doesn't, the reason it's not six weeks is, is partly because, um, it's

2488
02:27:36.000 --> 02:27:39.920
not clearly like a churn risk.

2489
02:27:39.920 --> 02:27:43.880
It's not like the more they're in slack, the more they're slipping away.

2490
02:27:44.440 --> 02:27:49.000
Um, and it's not like you're missing out on a bunch of new business and you really

2491
02:27:49.000 --> 02:27:51.240
expect that you're going to activate a bunch more.

2492
02:27:51.800 --> 02:27:55.560
Um, but there's a certain level of like, you, you're, you're inching up the, what

2493
02:27:55.560 --> 02:28:01.560
the, the, you're inching up on like the, it's like a incremental, incrementally

2494
02:28:01.560 --> 02:28:04.880
more satisfaction and your ability to kind of like, like do the thing

2495
02:28:04.880 --> 02:28:05.920
that you're selling already.

2496
02:28:07.560 --> 02:28:08.400
Yes.

2497
02:28:08.480 --> 02:28:13.120
And, um, the Rainmakers is the one client that was like really pushing

2498
02:28:13.120 --> 02:28:16.400
hard and they, they just made the hard cutoff and they just switched to the app.

2499
02:28:16.440 --> 02:28:19.280
And so they've been a month or two in this and they're like, Hey,

2500
02:28:19.280 --> 02:28:20.960
we kind of missed this feature.

2501
02:28:21.360 --> 02:28:22.800
Like this would be nice to have.

2502
02:28:23.240 --> 02:28:24.520
They're kind of working around it.

2503
02:28:24.560 --> 02:28:28.560
It's not, it's definitely not like closing deals for us, but

2504
02:28:28.720 --> 02:28:30.840
are they, are they a big customer for you?

2505
02:28:31.960 --> 02:28:32.240
Yeah.

2506
02:28:32.240 --> 02:28:34.400
They're, they're one of our enterprise customers.

2507
02:28:34.400 --> 02:28:34.680
Yeah.

2508
02:28:35.320 --> 02:28:37.440
Ah, I see.

2509
02:28:37.680 --> 02:28:38.280
I see.

2510
02:28:38.360 --> 02:28:38.920
Okay.

2511
02:28:39.160 --> 02:28:39.640
Uh-huh.

2512
02:28:40.080 --> 02:28:42.560
So, so, uh, I'm just kind of capturing this.

2513
02:28:42.800 --> 02:28:47.560
So one of your enterprise customers just, just, um, went all in into tribe.

2514
02:28:48.720 --> 02:28:49.120
Yes.

2515
02:28:52.240 --> 02:28:56.120
They, they, um, canceled their Slack.

2516
02:28:56.600 --> 02:28:56.960
Yes.

2517
02:28:59.160 --> 02:29:03.520
Now they are saying they need group DMS.

2518
02:29:06.760 --> 02:29:07.080
Yep.

2519
02:29:08.000 --> 02:29:08.480
Got it.

2520
02:29:08.600 --> 02:29:09.080
Okay.

2521
02:29:09.160 --> 02:29:09.760
Okay, good.

2522
02:29:10.080 --> 02:29:18.320
Um, um, maybe one slice of con context here is they are, uh, not to make it too

2523
02:29:18.360 --> 02:29:20.960
complicated, but they, we have the option for these enterprise.

2524
02:29:20.960 --> 02:29:23.880
If it's an important thing for them, they can sponsor the feature.

2525
02:29:24.280 --> 02:29:27.280
And that's kind of a one to two week budget is coming from.

2526
02:29:27.840 --> 02:29:32.560
Um, so in true bootstrap form, we're like, great.

2527
02:29:32.560 --> 02:29:33.040
You want it?

2528
02:29:33.120 --> 02:29:34.320
This is what it's going to cost.

2529
02:29:35.080 --> 02:29:36.760
So is that what, is that what they're doing?

2530
02:29:37.640 --> 02:29:38.120
They are.

2531
02:29:38.160 --> 02:29:38.520
Yeah.

2532
02:29:38.880 --> 02:29:42.920
So they were, it's kind of a hybrid because we say, yeah, we got it.

2533
02:29:42.960 --> 02:29:43.800
We'll do group them.

2534
02:29:43.800 --> 02:29:45.400
We're not involving them in this call.

2535
02:29:45.440 --> 02:29:46.720
They're not approving things.

2536
02:29:46.760 --> 02:29:51.000
This is not a, uh, they're just putting in like, generally we want this feature.

2537
02:29:51.000 --> 02:29:55.080
They don't really get to be in the weeds of telling us exactly how they want it.

2538
02:29:55.080 --> 02:30:00.000
We'll just, and we are very careful to only bring in very core features that.

2539
02:30:00.000 --> 02:30:06.080
match like our vision. Now we, years ago, we were not, we were Frankensteining, you know,

2540
02:30:06.080 --> 02:30:11.680
hacking and all kinds of stuff, but much more deliberate now, like, yes, this makes sense,

2541
02:30:11.680 --> 02:30:16.000
lines with our vision. If you want it, we can put it on the roadmap and kind of bump it up,

2542
02:30:16.000 --> 02:30:21.840
you know, and put this, this into it. But yeah. I'm going to resist diving more and more into

2543
02:30:21.840 --> 02:30:27.840
the frame of this because it's so small, but one, one quick question. What's the wind here for you?

2544
02:30:27.840 --> 02:30:32.880
Like, is it, is it, is it the, is it the additional, is it just like nice to get the

2545
02:30:32.880 --> 02:30:36.800
additional sort of sponsorship income? It's just like a little bit of additional cash coming in.

2546
02:30:36.800 --> 02:30:41.280
No, it's pretty much, you know, break even when they, what they're paying versus what's

2547
02:30:41.280 --> 02:30:45.600
going to cost to build it. There's no, there's no broad benefit there. You know, at the end of

2548
02:30:45.600 --> 02:30:52.480
the day, we're making the platform that we own more valuable. And I, we're, we're giving people

2549
02:30:52.480 --> 02:30:59.680
more ways to do mentorship and coaching. This is another tool in their toolkit to, to help

2550
02:30:59.680 --> 02:31:06.160
people grow and learn in a virtual community. So I see the value of that. So to me, it feels like

2551
02:31:06.160 --> 02:31:17.760
a good, I would say like, yeah, if we really get down to it, like we, we really, you know,

2552
02:31:17.760 --> 02:31:23.680
made a huge mistake. Janata mentioned like a year or so ago, we like had a client who needed DM. So

2553
02:31:23.680 --> 02:31:29.120
we like hacked this DM thing in there. And it's, it's, it's not a feature we even have listed on

2554
02:31:29.120 --> 02:31:35.440
the website. Let's put it that way. So now I feel like if we did a little polishing, we clean this

2555
02:31:35.440 --> 02:31:40.640
up again, Janata got in there and did some magic to it, you know, like in this process, we're doing

2556
02:31:40.640 --> 02:31:45.520
a lot of little things here to me, it would like, I would probably put this as like a pretty, not

2557
02:31:45.520 --> 02:31:49.680
only do we do DMs now, but like, we also have this group, it feels more fleshed out. It feels more

2558
02:31:49.680 --> 02:31:58.240
like a selling feature. So it kind of takes like a side thing we, we put together. And even just,

2559
02:31:58.240 --> 02:32:02.400
you know, you know, we've had to go really deep in the last couple of days, just looking into this

2560
02:32:02.400 --> 02:32:07.440
and seeing where, you know, it could be refactored and where, you know, probably do some cleanup

2561
02:32:07.440 --> 02:32:14.400
while we're in there. But yeah, so that's kind of the deeper. So like DM was already there.

2562
02:32:14.400 --> 02:32:18.240
It kind of wasn't really like something that it's, it's like something you had, but you couldn't sell

2563
02:32:18.240 --> 02:32:22.160
it. You couldn't really do anything with it. And then here is like a modification we can make.

2564
02:32:22.160 --> 02:32:25.600
That's going to be something where it now becomes value additive to the overall package.

2565
02:32:27.040 --> 02:32:34.800
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay. I okay. We were talking about use case. We were talking about

2566
02:32:35.520 --> 02:32:39.760
why people might be removed or added and removed repeatedly to the chat. And I think what we're

2567
02:32:39.760 --> 02:32:44.080
trying to do, we've got 25 minutes left. So what I think we should try to do is, is kind of land

2568
02:32:44.080 --> 02:32:51.680
the shaping piece of this now. Let's say that this is the last remaining big question. I think

2569
02:32:51.680 --> 02:33:00.560
it actually is based on what was in the notion doc. Are any objectives, are you guys comfortable

2570
02:33:00.560 --> 02:33:08.720
with, or what is the answer? What's the working, what's the favorite idea so far in terms of like,

2571
02:33:09.280 --> 02:33:15.840
if here we remove somebody and there's a, there's a submit action, right?

2572
02:33:17.680 --> 02:33:22.480
So here we are in changing members of this group. So if we remove somebody from this group and we

2573
02:33:22.480 --> 02:33:24.800
submit, like what, what happens? What do they see?

2574
02:33:28.720 --> 02:33:35.200
Well, I would say it feels right that they no longer see the chat, but we would have to like

2575
02:33:36.080 --> 02:33:39.600
send them a notification so that they're not like, wait, what, what happened?

2576
02:33:41.040 --> 02:33:48.320
But there's also like, I'm just like firing, like all the things, but Janata put it like a

2577
02:33:48.320 --> 02:33:53.920
good point in the chat. Like, should anyone be able to like add or remove people from the chat?

2578
02:33:53.920 --> 02:33:57.280
So it feels like the shaping is still has like some holes.

2579
02:33:57.920 --> 02:33:59.680
There's still more things. Okay.

2580
02:34:00.640 --> 02:34:05.360
But I think that's it. That's, I don't think anyone's disagreeing. Should they

2581
02:34:05.360 --> 02:34:08.960
see the chat? I think we can say, yeah, like we should, they should not see the chat.

2582
02:34:12.160 --> 02:34:16.560
Okay. Part of the reason why I'm capturing this here is because I don't know when we'll run out

2583
02:34:16.560 --> 02:34:35.040
of time. There are ways to spell this out where like, so for example, like conversation list,

2584
02:34:36.240 --> 02:34:42.400
this list of conversations is like conversations I'm a member of, and just, we can add some

2585
02:34:42.400 --> 02:34:48.160
concreteness there, right? Because now there's a consequence, you know what I mean? So like,

2586
02:34:48.720 --> 02:34:56.160
if we can point to what happens as a result of this. So like, if, if I, if somebody,

2587
02:34:56.160 --> 02:34:59.840
if somebody removes me and then I go and I look at this.

2588
02:35:00.000 --> 02:35:02.760
I go into a screen where the conversation list is shown,

2589
02:35:02.760 --> 02:35:06.680
then I wouldn't be seeing that, because I'm not

2590
02:35:06.680 --> 02:35:07.840
a member of that, right?

2591
02:35:11.840 --> 02:35:12.800
That's correct, yeah.

2592
02:35:12.800 --> 02:35:13.300
Makes sense.

2593
02:35:15.800 --> 02:35:17.640
Any thoughts on this one?

2594
02:35:21.360 --> 02:35:23.800
OK, so this would be something where we could say,

2595
02:35:23.800 --> 02:35:40.560
for example, people removed from chat are, yeah,

2596
02:35:40.560 --> 02:35:44.320
that's actually interesting.

2597
02:35:44.320 --> 02:35:45.880
This is just kind of like a note.

2598
02:35:45.880 --> 02:35:47.400
There isn't really a natural place for this,

2599
02:35:47.400 --> 02:35:48.800
because the person who's doing it

2600
02:35:48.800 --> 02:35:51.200
and the person who sees it are different people, you know?

2601
02:35:53.800 --> 02:36:07.600
So we could kind of just point that out.

2602
02:36:10.880 --> 02:36:14.160
But we would be able to say, if it's

2603
02:36:14.160 --> 02:36:17.000
true that we want to have a push notification,

2604
02:36:17.000 --> 02:36:19.200
you were removed, I don't know if that's true or not.

2605
02:36:19.200 --> 02:36:21.800
I think the suggestion came up, but that's usually

2606
02:36:21.800 --> 02:36:25.160
something that I would expect a little bit of back and forth

2607
02:36:25.160 --> 02:36:25.680
around.

2608
02:36:28.920 --> 02:36:29.680
Yeah, I can see it.

2609
02:36:32.920 --> 02:36:35.840
That's the thing, and decision would be push notification,

2610
02:36:35.840 --> 02:36:40.600
or even while we were in Zoom here,

2611
02:36:40.600 --> 02:36:44.200
Chris left and came back, so it had an alert there

2612
02:36:44.200 --> 02:36:47.240
that, do we tell the other members that this one person

2613
02:36:47.240 --> 02:36:49.560
has left as an alert?

2614
02:36:50.440 --> 02:36:53.000
Hey, when I'm in my history on the conversation list,

2615
02:36:53.000 --> 02:36:56.800
do I see groups I'm no longer a part of?

2616
02:36:56.800 --> 02:37:00.840
Or can I see it in the list, but I can't actually

2617
02:37:00.840 --> 02:37:03.600
read the messages?

2618
02:37:03.600 --> 02:37:05.960
I think we do want to, so maybe a simple solution

2619
02:37:05.960 --> 02:37:08.880
is just at least alert them, like, hey, you're removed.

2620
02:37:08.880 --> 02:37:10.400
Maybe it's a push notification.

2621
02:37:10.400 --> 02:37:12.120
It could also be the notification center,

2622
02:37:12.120 --> 02:37:13.520
so it's a little bit more concrete

2623
02:37:13.520 --> 02:37:17.320
that they get in a log, because a push notification just

2624
02:37:17.320 --> 02:37:18.840
could be removed.

2625
02:37:19.840 --> 02:37:25.200
We have some user groups that are in 50, 60-plus age groups,

2626
02:37:25.200 --> 02:37:28.280
so we want to make sure this is super obvious,

2627
02:37:28.280 --> 02:37:30.600
so they don't, because they will come and submit a support

2628
02:37:30.600 --> 02:37:33.880
ticket to our clients saying that, hey,

2629
02:37:33.880 --> 02:37:34.920
I can't see this anymore.

2630
02:37:34.920 --> 02:37:37.440
It's like, well, you stopped paying this thing,

2631
02:37:37.440 --> 02:37:40.920
so this is why, or you left this.

2632
02:37:40.920 --> 02:37:45.640
You want to make sure there's some explanation there.

2633
02:37:45.640 --> 02:37:47.520
But Lucian's right in that there should

2634
02:37:48.040 --> 02:37:52.200
be some alert TBD on which way we put that.

2635
02:37:52.200 --> 02:37:53.040
Mm-hmm.

2636
02:37:53.040 --> 02:37:53.520
OK.

2637
02:38:03.760 --> 02:38:04.320
OK.

2638
02:38:04.320 --> 02:38:10.440
And so with 20 minutes left, we can

2639
02:38:10.440 --> 02:38:12.960
keep going to all the additional unknowns

2640
02:38:12.960 --> 02:38:15.200
and spelling this thing out.

2641
02:38:15.280 --> 02:38:19.640
But I think what we need to do is land the shaping,

2642
02:38:19.640 --> 02:38:26.200
and I want to, I think the real question now

2643
02:38:26.200 --> 02:38:31.720
is if we look at this work, is it

2644
02:38:31.720 --> 02:38:33.680
evident enough what the moving parts are

2645
02:38:33.680 --> 02:38:35.880
in terms of implementation that we can kind of talk

2646
02:38:35.880 --> 02:38:41.440
about this fitting naturally into one week

2647
02:38:41.480 --> 02:38:45.400
versus feeling like we want to plan for two weeks?

2648
02:38:45.400 --> 02:38:47.200
Or are there concerns about whether it

2649
02:38:47.200 --> 02:38:49.480
pushes beyond two weeks with what is drawn

2650
02:38:49.480 --> 02:38:50.880
and what's on the table here?

2651
02:38:50.880 --> 02:38:53.320
So this would be for the technical guys

2652
02:38:53.320 --> 02:38:58.200
to give a reaction to.

2653
02:38:58.200 --> 02:38:59.640
So the first question I would ask

2654
02:38:59.640 --> 02:39:02.120
is, because the appetite was kind of one to two,

2655
02:39:02.120 --> 02:39:06.560
I would say, first question, does this look viable in one?

2656
02:39:06.560 --> 02:39:09.840
Second question, does it seem clearly viable in two?

2657
02:39:09.840 --> 02:39:14.560
And if there's uncertainty, then we

2658
02:39:14.560 --> 02:39:16.960
have tools we could use to help us.

2659
02:39:19.640 --> 02:39:26.040
OK, my view is that we probably could get a functional version

2660
02:39:26.040 --> 02:39:29.360
in one week, but I believe this would probably not

2661
02:39:29.360 --> 02:39:33.800
include all the moving parts that we are seeing here.

2662
02:39:33.800 --> 02:39:39.120
I believe it's, I feel confident for two weeks

2663
02:39:39.120 --> 02:39:45.120
with the, let's say, restraint that we will not

2664
02:39:45.120 --> 02:39:48.960
change a lot of what's currently problematic.

2665
02:39:48.960 --> 02:39:53.080
Like, we will implement this on top of what we have,

2666
02:39:53.080 --> 02:39:57.440
and if we find ugly things that will take long to change,

2667
02:39:57.440 --> 02:39:58.840
we will not tackle them.

2668
02:39:58.840 --> 02:40:00.680
If we are on.

2669
02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:04.560
on the same page regarding kind of avoiding refactoring

2670
02:40:04.560 --> 02:40:07.520
the HackmyChat and trying to just build on top

2671
02:40:07.520 --> 02:40:10.120
of what you have to have a feature

2672
02:40:10.120 --> 02:40:14.200
that our users can use in this two-week process,

2673
02:40:14.200 --> 02:40:17.120
in two weeks, and it will already generate valuable,

2674
02:40:17.120 --> 02:40:20.840
especially for Rainmakers that's currently needing for this.

2675
02:40:20.840 --> 02:40:24.920
Then I believe it's doable with this kind of mention

2676
02:40:24.920 --> 02:40:28.360
regarding what's there with the old code

2677
02:40:28.360 --> 02:40:30.800
and with the problems, like, for instance,

2678
02:40:30.800 --> 02:40:35.800
when we send a message, a lot of the screen goes blank

2679
02:40:35.800 --> 02:40:38.360
and then it appears back, and this is a bug.

2680
02:40:39.480 --> 02:40:42.400
It would be nice to have to kind of fix this

2681
02:40:42.400 --> 02:40:45.520
during this project, but I'm not confident

2682
02:40:45.520 --> 02:40:49.440
that it's certain that will be possible to, like.

2683
02:40:52.680 --> 02:40:55.680
Is there any other area that you have in mind

2684
02:40:55.720 --> 02:40:59.640
of, like, we would have to leave it as it is

2685
02:40:59.640 --> 02:41:01.440
or we would have to kind of, you know,

2686
02:41:01.440 --> 02:41:03.400
just hack it with what we already have

2687
02:41:03.400 --> 02:41:05.400
other than sending a message?

2688
02:41:06.800 --> 02:41:09.000
There are two points that I believe

2689
02:41:09.000 --> 02:41:14.000
that are still a little bit kind of nebulous for me.

2690
02:41:16.200 --> 02:41:21.080
One is about the reading receipts.

2691
02:41:21.080 --> 02:41:23.000
Like, at the current point,

2692
02:41:23.000 --> 02:41:26.720
we have basically one variable that controls.

2693
02:41:26.720 --> 02:41:28.760
Everyone has read the message

2694
02:41:28.760 --> 02:41:31.560
or not everyone has read the message,

2695
02:41:31.560 --> 02:41:33.520
and that works in one-for-one

2696
02:41:33.520 --> 02:41:37.360
because when I send the message, I set this to false,

2697
02:41:37.360 --> 02:41:41.400
and when the other person sees, he sets this to true,

2698
02:41:41.400 --> 02:41:43.760
and if he sends a message and so on,

2699
02:41:43.760 --> 02:41:46.840
it will basically go back and forth with this boolean.

2700
02:41:46.840 --> 02:41:49.520
But this is, well, not a very good approach,

2701
02:41:49.520 --> 02:41:51.640
and it would also not work for groups,

2702
02:41:51.640 --> 02:41:53.800
so it would need some reworking

2703
02:41:53.800 --> 02:41:59.960
for us to get this kind of readability to fix it.

2704
02:41:59.960 --> 02:42:05.040
And also regarding this kind of management of users

2705
02:42:05.040 --> 02:42:08.640
and who will have rights to remove users

2706
02:42:08.640 --> 02:42:09.880
and who will not have,

2707
02:42:09.880 --> 02:42:12.840
and can we promote users to admin of a group

2708
02:42:12.840 --> 02:42:15.040
if we kind of have this concept?

2709
02:42:15.040 --> 02:42:19.400
And I believe these are the two, like,

2710
02:42:19.400 --> 02:42:23.360
more nebulous part at the current moment for me.

2711
02:42:23.360 --> 02:42:26.280
So, Bruce, from the product standpoint,

2712
02:42:26.280 --> 02:42:29.640
so this is, again, exactly the things we want to surface.

2713
02:42:29.640 --> 02:42:32.080
Are there things that you have answers to

2714
02:42:32.080 --> 02:42:34.240
for the current appetite?

2715
02:42:34.240 --> 02:42:35.880
Yeah, and I think, so the easy one

2716
02:42:35.880 --> 02:42:39.240
is, like, the receipts thing for groups.

2717
02:42:39.240 --> 02:42:42.880
I think it makes sense just to not deal with that for groups,

2718
02:42:42.880 --> 02:42:44.080
if that makes sense.

2719
02:42:44.080 --> 02:42:45.640
Awesome.

2720
02:42:45.640 --> 02:42:48.240
You know, because I don't see that in Slack.

2721
02:42:49.240 --> 02:42:51.120
You know, I don't see who read which message.

2722
02:42:51.120 --> 02:42:53.680
I mean, we have the ability to react,

2723
02:42:53.680 --> 02:42:55.880
so the solution in Slack is people react,

2724
02:42:55.880 --> 02:42:58.360
so that's how I know someone looked at something.

2725
02:42:58.360 --> 02:42:59.600
They put a little emoji or something,

2726
02:42:59.600 --> 02:43:03.520
which we have the ability to react to a message currently,

2727
02:43:03.520 --> 02:43:07.080
so that should solve itself.

2728
02:43:07.080 --> 02:43:12.560
One of the requests from the, so in this industry,

2729
02:43:12.560 --> 02:43:15.200
spam and people kind of, you know,

2730
02:43:15.240 --> 02:43:18.600
jumping in and, like, you know, sending crypto links,

2731
02:43:18.600 --> 02:43:20.960
especially on, like, a free challenge or something happens,

2732
02:43:20.960 --> 02:43:23.840
so people are very nervous about private group chats

2733
02:43:23.840 --> 02:43:26.360
that the clients can't see,

2734
02:43:26.360 --> 02:43:29.280
so that's why they requested the admin,

2735
02:43:29.280 --> 02:43:31.880
and I think this would be as simple as, like,

2736
02:43:31.880 --> 02:43:35.400
if the person is an admin or a creator,

2737
02:43:35.400 --> 02:43:39.280
they can create, you know, group chats.

2738
02:43:39.280 --> 02:43:42.080
We could just, you know, that could be, like,

2739
02:43:42.080 --> 02:43:44.680
maybe when they're adding that person,

2740
02:43:44.680 --> 02:43:50.920
like, in your new message of breadboard somewhere.

2741
02:43:50.920 --> 02:43:53.880
Like, that could be, there could be, like, a conditional.

2742
02:43:53.880 --> 02:43:55.240
They're, like, depending on the role,

2743
02:43:55.240 --> 02:43:59.360
they have the button to add an additional person.

2744
02:43:59.360 --> 02:44:01.040
Where did we have the, oh, list of.

2745
02:44:01.040 --> 02:44:03.200
So this would, so you wouldn't even see the button

2746
02:44:03.200 --> 02:44:05.560
to create a new message unless you were.

2747
02:44:05.560 --> 02:44:08.200
So you could message one person.

2748
02:44:08.200 --> 02:44:09.520
It's more like you couldn't have,

2749
02:44:09.520 --> 02:44:12.000
you couldn't start a group message.

2750
02:44:12.000 --> 02:44:13.880
Uh-huh, mm-hmm.

2751
02:44:13.880 --> 02:44:17.040
So this is, by the way, this is interesting.

2752
02:44:17.040 --> 02:44:21.200
You, with the time we have left, I'll be short,

2753
02:44:21.200 --> 02:44:27.800
you have the ability already to search for users, right,

2754
02:44:27.800 --> 02:44:29.640
in the existing interface.

2755
02:44:29.640 --> 02:44:32.440
Could it be, could it be that this affordance

2756
02:44:32.440 --> 02:44:34.640
could be only for creating groups?

2757
02:44:37.880 --> 02:44:41.560
But because we changed this above to only look,

2758
02:44:41.560 --> 02:44:44.760
so what's above there, the search in one part here,

2759
02:44:44.760 --> 02:44:49.840
we changed this to only search the conversations below.

2760
02:44:49.840 --> 02:44:51.600
Yes, uh-huh.

2761
02:44:51.600 --> 02:44:54.600
Or filter, let's maybe say the word filter.

2762
02:44:54.600 --> 02:44:57.480
There would be, like, the only other way they would find it,

2763
02:44:57.480 --> 02:44:58.560
which is okay for now.

2764
02:44:58.560 --> 02:45:00.040
Like, I'm okay with.

2765
02:45:00.000 --> 02:45:04.920
There's a version of this where we do just do what you said, and new message is really

2766
02:45:04.920 --> 02:45:08.680
just like new group message.

2767
02:45:08.680 --> 02:45:13.520
And just going back, there's a way you would be in a group with someone, and I would see

2768
02:45:13.520 --> 02:45:17.880
their name in the feed, and I could tap on their name, and then I could start a new conversation

2769
02:45:17.880 --> 02:45:18.880
with that person.

2770
02:45:18.880 --> 02:45:22.340
It's not a bad workflow, honestly.

2771
02:45:22.340 --> 02:45:30.700
I don't think searching the entire database of users for a non-admin is like, it seems

2772
02:45:30.700 --> 02:45:36.340
overly complicated to see thousands of people.

2773
02:45:36.340 --> 02:45:40.580
It's more, oh, I saw this person post something, I want to send them a DM.

2774
02:45:40.580 --> 02:45:43.100
It seems more personal.

2775
02:45:43.100 --> 02:45:48.940
And we do have a members tab that our admins can turn on for the group, so it is just a

2776
02:45:48.940 --> 02:45:53.460
search field of all members in that particular group.

2777
02:45:53.460 --> 02:46:02.700
So it may just be that that new message button is a new group message, potentially.

2778
02:46:02.700 --> 02:46:04.740
Or maybe it's just like, create group.

2779
02:46:04.740 --> 02:46:06.300
Maybe it's like something, you know.

2780
02:46:06.300 --> 02:46:08.540
Yeah, that's interesting, because we were-

2781
02:46:08.540 --> 02:46:13.140
We actually have the concept of groups, sorry, just because we have tribes, and then there's

2782
02:46:13.140 --> 02:46:16.860
multiple groups in that tribe, so we would want to say something like a group DM or a

2783
02:46:16.860 --> 02:46:21.100
group chat, just because that could be confusing.

2784
02:46:21.100 --> 02:46:26.500
It's like, new message, that button we only show to admins, and yeah, that's what you

2785
02:46:26.500 --> 02:46:27.500
were saying, basically.

2786
02:46:27.500 --> 02:46:28.500
Yeah.

2787
02:46:28.500 --> 02:46:35.020
Or in two ways, like, anyone who's seen it, and then like, search from Acme is like, hidden

2788
02:46:35.020 --> 02:46:39.900
if you're not admin, and there's one person in the added people.

2789
02:46:39.900 --> 02:46:45.500
Yeah, I think the search, that search is really turning into a filter of what-

2790
02:46:45.620 --> 02:46:51.020
I would agree with Brian, like, that we should land this, because like, we're like, going

2791
02:46:51.020 --> 02:46:55.060
into like, more details, like, we're on a good like, path, like, we have the tools,

2792
02:46:55.060 --> 02:46:59.340
I feel, to like, figure out these like, other details.

2793
02:46:59.340 --> 02:47:05.700
So the thing that makes my hair stand up a little bit right now is, we're still catching

2794
02:47:05.700 --> 02:47:15.700
some kind of tricky things, you know, and maybe at the speed that you guys build, it's

2795
02:47:15.700 --> 02:47:24.580
fine.

2796
02:47:24.580 --> 02:47:27.700
I'm adding a question here to capture this.

2797
02:47:27.700 --> 02:47:35.660
How do we condition that non-admins don't create groups?

2798
02:47:35.660 --> 02:47:42.260
You guys can improve that to make it accurate.

2799
02:47:42.260 --> 02:47:48.540
So here's the thing, Bruce, there is a framing piece of this.

2800
02:47:48.540 --> 02:47:54.420
I think that it's very, very difficult, the way that this has been framed, to understand

2801
02:47:54.420 --> 02:47:59.620
like, what the actual upside of this is, or what goes wrong if you don't do it now.

2802
02:47:59.620 --> 02:48:05.460
And I kind of feel like this two-week, the feeling that this needs to be done in two

2803
02:48:05.460 --> 02:48:11.780
weeks is kind of coming from the fact that there isn't a strong reason other than, well,

2804
02:48:11.780 --> 02:48:16.180
like, one of our customers wants it, and it would like, so there's, I'm feeling a little

2805
02:48:16.180 --> 02:48:20.740
bit of a tension, like, it just kind of would be nice to have, you know.

2806
02:48:20.740 --> 02:48:31.620
And then on the flip side, when I look at the work and the surface area, if I was working

2807
02:48:31.620 --> 02:48:36.340
with the teams that I often work with, I would be feeling a little nervous about two weeks,

2808
02:48:36.340 --> 02:48:39.260
I would have to admit.

2809
02:48:39.260 --> 02:48:48.060
So my instinct would be to reach for the scoping tool to try and get clearer around, is this

2810
02:48:48.060 --> 02:48:51.980
actually doable inside the two weeks, and how do we feel about that?

2811
02:48:51.980 --> 02:48:57.620
I want to demo that to you in the 10 minutes we have left, so that you guys can make a

2812
02:48:57.620 --> 02:49:01.380
determination about if this is really going to feel good or not.

2813
02:49:01.380 --> 02:49:05.940
Because I want to come back to the initial thing.

2814
02:49:05.940 --> 02:49:10.540
I think there's things that you're seeing that you liked in the session, but kind of

2815
02:49:10.540 --> 02:49:16.660
the very, very high level thing we're trying to get to is, can we have a better matching

2816
02:49:16.740 --> 02:49:23.540
between the timelines that we set and then the time we actually spend, you know?

2817
02:49:23.540 --> 02:49:29.380
It's very natural that the timelines are always going to feel a little bit too short, when

2818
02:49:29.380 --> 02:49:33.580
on the framing side, we don't have a really strong reason to be doing this, so it's kind

2819
02:49:33.580 --> 02:49:37.500
of hard to give the three weeks, but then we feel a little bit squeezed.

2820
02:49:37.500 --> 02:49:44.500
So I want to, there's still concreteness missing here on the implementation side.

2821
02:49:44.500 --> 02:49:49.660
The tool for that, so this is something you can do as an exercise.

2822
02:49:49.660 --> 02:49:58.020
I have a little app that makes this easy to do, and I embedded it here for you.

2823
02:49:58.020 --> 02:50:00.020
So what I want you to think...

2824
02:50:00.000 --> 02:50:05.000
is if you've got two weeks and then you,

2825
02:50:08.560 --> 02:50:09.920
two weeks is what?

2826
02:50:09.920 --> 02:50:11.960
10 business days, right?

2827
02:50:13.460 --> 02:50:18.320
So if you take 10 days and if we divide that

2828
02:50:18.320 --> 02:50:22.160
by nine possible scopes of implementation work,

2829
02:50:22.160 --> 02:50:24.180
like if we just break this into nine chunks

2830
02:50:24.180 --> 02:50:26.720
of things that we could vertically slice apart

2831
02:50:26.720 --> 02:50:29.160
and demo and finish, you know what I mean?

2832
02:50:29.160 --> 02:50:34.160
Like adding people to a group chat works, you know?

2833
02:50:34.220 --> 02:50:37.560
Push notifications work, for example, right?

2834
02:50:37.560 --> 02:50:40.080
That each one of these things is like,

2835
02:50:41.720 --> 02:50:44.680
I mean, it's basically on the order of one day,

2836
02:50:44.680 --> 02:50:46.440
I would say, right?

2837
02:50:46.440 --> 02:50:47.680
Is my math right?

2838
02:50:47.680 --> 02:50:49.880
10 divided by nine, okay.

2839
02:50:50.920 --> 02:50:54.640
So there's an exercise you can do here

2840
02:50:54.640 --> 02:50:59.640
and this is for you guys, for Lucian and Janata

2841
02:51:00.680 --> 02:51:05.520
to see if you could spell this out

2842
02:51:05.520 --> 02:51:07.400
in terms of actual implementation work,

2843
02:51:07.400 --> 02:51:09.940
just a sketch of the implementation plan.

2844
02:51:09.940 --> 02:51:14.900
So you are gonna have your own ideas

2845
02:51:14.900 --> 02:51:16.560
about how to slice this.

2846
02:51:16.560 --> 02:51:19.120
I would think that there is something like

2847
02:51:20.660 --> 02:51:22.800
create a group chat.

2848
02:51:22.800 --> 02:51:27.800
There is something like change group chat members.

2849
02:51:31.460 --> 02:51:36.460
There's something like handle exit of a group chat

2850
02:51:37.520 --> 02:51:40.740
like, or removal, you know, handle removal.

2851
02:51:42.260 --> 02:51:43.440
You know what I mean?

2852
02:51:43.440 --> 02:51:48.440
There's gonna be, so like, these are just a couple ideas.

2853
02:51:49.440 --> 02:51:52.420
There's different ways to slice it.

2854
02:51:54.200 --> 02:51:55.760
And then for each one of these things,

2855
02:51:55.760 --> 02:51:59.300
you'll see that there's a, you can just add a task.

2856
02:51:59.300 --> 02:52:01.840
So you can literally implementation tasks of like,

2857
02:52:01.840 --> 02:52:04.680
oh, like, we're gonna have to create the,

2858
02:52:04.680 --> 02:52:09.680
like, where does this group convo in the schema live?

2859
02:52:11.540 --> 02:52:12.380
You know what I mean?

2860
02:52:12.380 --> 02:52:13.720
Like, how do we do that?

2861
02:52:13.720 --> 02:52:15.200
There needs to be like something there.

2862
02:52:15.200 --> 02:52:17.400
There's this conversation list.

2863
02:52:25.320 --> 02:52:29.040
Here's another thing, like conversation list.

2864
02:52:30.400 --> 02:52:33.420
Let's say, yeah, let's just call it conversation list.

2865
02:52:34.540 --> 02:52:39.540
Like, we need to be able to like see group chats by name

2866
02:52:40.200 --> 02:52:42.920
with the one-on-one chats in the list, for example.

2867
02:52:42.920 --> 02:52:43.760
Do you know what I mean?

2868
02:52:43.760 --> 02:52:45.080
And there's things you're gonna have to do to do that.

2869
02:52:45.920 --> 02:52:48.800
So if you imagine kind of just like spelling out,

2870
02:52:48.800 --> 02:52:50.240
what are the things you think you have to do

2871
02:52:50.240 --> 02:52:51.060
for each of these?

2872
02:52:51.060 --> 02:52:52.880
And if you can be a little more concrete than this,

2873
02:52:52.880 --> 02:52:57.400
like what piece of code needs to get modified

2874
02:52:57.400 --> 02:53:00.240
or what chunk or whatever,

2875
02:53:03.320 --> 02:53:06.000
then that will help you get to a point

2876
02:53:06.000 --> 02:53:07.160
where you'll be able to look at this.

2877
02:53:07.160 --> 02:53:09.140
You'll say, I could do that in a day.

2878
02:53:09.140 --> 02:53:10.080
I could do that in a day.

2879
02:53:10.080 --> 02:53:11.200
I could do this in a day, right?

2880
02:53:11.200 --> 02:53:14.300
And if this whole thing can be done in a day,

2881
02:53:15.240 --> 02:53:17.840
then it's kind of a, you get a feeling

2882
02:53:17.840 --> 02:53:19.440
for how you can estimate, yeah?

2883
02:53:20.320 --> 02:53:22.800
So I would suggest trying that

2884
02:53:22.800 --> 02:53:27.080
and seeing if it gives you a better feeling.

2885
02:53:27.080 --> 02:53:28.880
How do you react to that suggestion?

2886
02:53:28.880 --> 02:53:30.240
Does this feel like a lot of work?

2887
02:53:30.240 --> 02:53:31.760
Does it feel like it gives you clarity?

2888
02:53:31.760 --> 02:53:34.160
Can you just kind of give me like, what are you?

2889
02:53:36.840 --> 02:53:39.840
Is it only me that's feeling a little bit worried

2890
02:53:39.840 --> 02:53:42.680
about the two-week number when I look at the breadboard?

2891
02:53:43.640 --> 02:53:48.080
Yeah, I feel that it's a little bit like squished.

2892
02:53:48.080 --> 02:53:52.680
Like it could be done, but like it's risky.

2893
02:53:52.680 --> 02:53:54.520
Like there's some risks involved

2894
02:53:54.520 --> 02:53:58.680
of like getting some stuff out

2895
02:53:58.680 --> 02:54:02.000
that's kind of propane,

2896
02:54:02.000 --> 02:54:04.040
has the tendency to create the things

2897
02:54:04.040 --> 02:54:08.200
that Bruce described where we will receive some feedbacks

2898
02:54:08.200 --> 02:54:10.680
from reactive work and stuff like that.

2899
02:54:11.680 --> 02:54:16.680
But yeah, I feel like that a little bit.

2900
02:54:19.000 --> 02:54:22.640
But also I really love the idea of like this chart

2901
02:54:22.640 --> 02:54:26.600
and like visually being able to see one big square

2902
02:54:26.600 --> 02:54:29.560
like everything and be able to discuss about it

2903
02:54:30.960 --> 02:54:33.080
just like we are doing for the shaping.

2904
02:54:33.080 --> 02:54:36.800
But like I said, for more than design implementation details

2905
02:54:36.800 --> 02:54:39.040
I believe this will be very helpful

2906
02:54:39.520 --> 02:54:42.880
because then you can like think more detail like,

2907
02:54:42.880 --> 02:54:45.920
hey, this will more like take a one hour, two hours.

2908
02:54:45.920 --> 02:54:49.680
Hey, this can work in a eight hour workday or not.

2909
02:54:49.680 --> 02:54:52.040
And kind of work from that,

2910
02:54:52.040 --> 02:54:54.960
especially because we are talking like 10 days.

2911
02:54:54.960 --> 02:54:59.160
It's not like a big, like months of work.

2912
02:54:59.160 --> 02:55:00.000
It's just like.

2913
02:55:00.000 --> 02:55:04.480
a few days and I believe we can we can estimate that very accurately.

2914
02:55:05.680 --> 02:55:06.800
Yeah, that's good.

2915
02:55:08.480 --> 02:55:10.400
So yeah, I would give that as a homework task.

2916
02:55:12.240 --> 02:55:16.800
From where I sit, I kind of don't feel like we got all the way to,

2917
02:55:16.800 --> 02:55:22.240
yes, you know, this fits within two weeks, like this feels like a clear winner.

2918
02:55:23.520 --> 02:55:28.560
It kind of feels, if the number was three, I would be feeling pretty relaxed, I think.

2919
02:55:30.000 --> 02:55:31.280
I see you nodding, yeah.

2920
02:55:33.520 --> 02:55:36.080
Bruce, like I think that's an interesting thing to take away.

2921
02:55:37.280 --> 02:55:40.800
I think this is, there's, if you want to think about,

2922
02:55:41.680 --> 02:55:45.600
so I'm kind of just trying to line some things up for you guys to chew on for the future now,

2923
02:55:45.600 --> 02:55:51.600
you know, I would say one is trying to do the exercise of the nine boxes to see

2924
02:55:53.440 --> 02:55:57.120
this is a way to get more concrete about implementation and feel that timing.

2925
02:55:57.520 --> 02:56:04.000
I think there's some, I think there's potential to have more back and forth on the framing side

2926
02:56:04.000 --> 02:56:11.840
to really kind of get firmer around like where is this feeling that we need to get to the two-week

2927
02:56:11.840 --> 02:56:16.240
version coming from and is there justification for more time or is there really not?

2928
02:56:16.880 --> 02:56:21.520
If this really needs to be done in two weeks and stretching to three isn't okay,

2929
02:56:21.760 --> 02:56:25.360
if, and you don't want to have the technical debt coming out of it,

2930
02:56:26.400 --> 02:56:30.560
what I would be wanting to do as a next step is cut stuff from here.

2931
02:56:31.440 --> 02:56:32.000
Do you know what I mean?

2932
02:56:32.000 --> 02:56:40.240
Like I would be looking for deeper, deeper scope cuts so that you guys could really say like,

2933
02:56:40.240 --> 02:56:46.560
yeah, two weeks feels like no problem, you know, but where it stands, it still feels like a bit,

2934
02:56:46.640 --> 02:56:51.600
it still feels like a bit, like there's a bit of extra scope here for two weeks.

2935
02:56:52.480 --> 02:56:55.040
Okay, that's a bit much of me talking.

2936
02:56:56.160 --> 02:56:58.240
I want to wrap with takeaways from you guys.

2937
02:56:58.240 --> 02:57:04.560
So, can we just go around with like where did we get to, where did you start if we,

2938
02:57:04.560 --> 02:57:12.400
from the notion doc that we had to where are we now, you know, and kind of what are your takeaways?

2939
02:57:17.520 --> 02:57:20.320
I'm loving the whole like branching and like breadboarding.

2940
02:57:20.320 --> 02:57:23.360
Like we don't do much breadboarding at all.

2941
02:57:23.360 --> 02:57:25.200
So definitely something to do.

2942
02:57:25.760 --> 02:57:29.440
I have like a question, probably we won't get to like answering it,

2943
02:57:29.440 --> 02:57:32.640
but I noticed that like you do your breadboarding with like screens

2944
02:57:32.640 --> 02:57:35.280
and like the diagram of like the current way that the system works.

2945
02:57:35.840 --> 02:57:41.920
I would have liked to see like more like data structure type details that forms very much like

2946
02:57:42.480 --> 02:57:48.160
some of the details, like what could be doable was like less realistic,

2947
02:57:48.720 --> 02:57:52.000
but we only see like screens, we don't see like the underlying like data structure.

2948
02:57:52.720 --> 02:57:56.800
But overall like really enjoyed a lot like the session.

2949
02:58:03.040 --> 02:58:05.280
Yeah, Gennaro, what are your takeaways?

2950
02:58:05.920 --> 02:58:13.440
I actually wrote a bunch of things, but first I really like that quote,

2951
02:58:13.440 --> 02:58:17.040
like high fidelity prototypes turn off a part of your brain.

2952
02:58:17.040 --> 02:58:24.560
Like this is very clever and I think it's so easy to be deceived by interface

2953
02:58:24.560 --> 02:58:28.000
and like buttons that click and provide animations.

2954
02:58:28.000 --> 02:58:33.360
And then you just kind of forget the criticality of the interface.

2955
02:58:33.360 --> 02:58:36.480
You just kind of forget the critical thinking about,

2956
02:58:36.480 --> 02:58:44.000
hey, how, what, they are searching exactly like what's being called behind here.

2957
02:58:44.000 --> 02:58:47.760
What are the schemas that will be needed for the screen?

2958
02:58:47.760 --> 02:58:49.840
So this is one takeaway.

2959
02:58:50.480 --> 02:58:56.960
Also this, I had the experience of shaping things before,

2960
02:58:56.960 --> 02:59:00.640
but I was usually, even being an engineer,

2961
02:59:00.960 --> 02:59:06.160
I was usually more worried about like UX and how things would like fit in the screen

2962
02:59:06.160 --> 02:59:08.400
and which elements would need to be shown.

2963
02:59:09.120 --> 02:59:14.080
And now I'm seeing, hey, this is much more like integrating both parts

2964
02:59:14.080 --> 02:59:17.600
and being able to bring this deep, deep technical details.

2965
02:59:17.600 --> 02:59:20.320
And kind of, like you said,

2966
02:59:20.320 --> 02:59:23.120
like this description of really being in the end,

2967
02:59:23.120 --> 02:59:28.560
kind of a matchmaking between understanding what really is your appetite

2968
02:59:28.640 --> 02:59:31.440
and what are our expectations from the dev team

2969
02:59:31.440 --> 02:59:35.200
and kind of making a merge between them work.

2970
02:59:35.200 --> 02:59:37.760
So this is a very interesting approach.

2971
02:59:37.760 --> 02:59:41.520
And also it was a very interesting experience in the sense like,

2972
02:59:43.680 --> 02:59:50.080
for instance, if you watch someone fighting jiu-jitsu, for instance,

2973
02:59:50.080 --> 02:59:52.880
sometimes you don't understand exactly what's happening,

2974
02:59:52.880 --> 02:59:59.680
but once you receive some like grip from a black belt,

2975
02:59:59.680 --> 03:00:00.180
then...

2976
03:00:00.000 --> 03:00:05.360
kind of, oh, now I understand what they did there. And that's the same experience I had there.

2977
03:00:05.360 --> 03:00:11.680
Like, it's watching a professional and a black belt in something do this, do this, and, like,

2978
03:00:12.240 --> 03:00:17.920
being able to kind of have this feeling and having this experience is very valuable because you

2979
03:00:17.920 --> 03:00:25.840
understand from a point that's beyond, like, just surface rational way, this is logical,

2980
03:00:25.840 --> 03:00:30.800
it makes sense, let's implement this. But the nuances, like, how you truly

2981
03:00:31.920 --> 03:00:38.160
fuse the room and, like you said, you, I didn't say, like, exactly, hey, I feel like maybe three

2982
03:00:38.160 --> 03:00:43.760
weeks would be enough. But you are, like, aware and bringing this up and bringing how you are

2983
03:00:43.760 --> 03:00:50.320
feeling about the room and bringing this type of kind of sometimes unconscious truths that

2984
03:00:51.040 --> 03:00:58.080
linger among the meeting sometimes was a very beautiful thing to watch. And it was like

2985
03:00:58.080 --> 03:01:03.760
watching a professional player of something and you go, like, hey, this is very elegant. And

2986
03:01:03.760 --> 03:01:05.680
thank you. Thank you for this session. It was awesome.

2987
03:01:07.200 --> 03:01:13.120
Thanks. Bruce, I want to hear from you on, like, the sort of the value side of this.

2988
03:01:13.520 --> 03:01:22.480
You know, do you see where did this get you, you know? Does it still depend on, like,

2989
03:01:22.480 --> 03:01:26.560
what happens in build and how long it takes or, like, how do you evaluate what happened here?

2990
03:01:27.360 --> 03:01:29.840
No, that's great. Chris, were you going to say something?

2991
03:01:31.440 --> 03:01:35.360
Yeah, I was going to say real quick, sorry for the whole thing, Ryan, but what I did catch,

2992
03:01:35.360 --> 03:01:39.760
there are a lot of gems that came out. I just posted something about UI builder. It's so funny

2993
03:01:39.760 --> 03:01:44.800
because I found that out about five days ago. And I said, this has been the answer to all of

2994
03:01:44.800 --> 03:01:48.000
these things where you have these polished prototypes and just kind of quickly showing

2995
03:01:48.000 --> 03:01:53.760
something as a client says something. But I love the slicer. I don't know what you call it, but the

2996
03:01:53.760 --> 03:01:58.720
nine grid slicer. I think it's a very visual way of just saying, hey, you want to do this and this

2997
03:01:58.720 --> 03:02:04.560
and this. OK, great. We're out of room. Right. And it just helps you kind of go through and cut

2998
03:02:04.560 --> 03:02:10.960
things out and then maybe start another nine grid if there's more. Right. But just keeping track of

2999
03:02:10.960 --> 03:02:16.640
how things are connected, hence breadboarding. Right. We started doing that for a troublesome

3000
03:02:16.640 --> 03:02:21.440
project we have now. It just really clarified things. I will add one thing. Some people think

3001
03:02:21.440 --> 03:02:26.320
in spreadsheets. Right. Because that's just how they work, how they see things. So even just this

3002
03:02:26.320 --> 03:02:32.000
morning, I was saying, hey, talking about developer saying, hey, let's not just do words or like a

3003
03:02:32.000 --> 03:02:35.840
video they have to digest and think about and respond to because you can't annotate a video. I

3004
03:02:35.840 --> 03:02:41.680
mean, you can, but not really. Right. I said, make a spreadsheet, put your assumptions, say so what

3005
03:02:41.680 --> 03:02:46.480
they're for and then say blockers and then let them respond in real time. Right. And she's just

3006
03:02:46.480 --> 03:02:51.520
just trying to surface information quicker. Right. And I think you've given us a lot of food for

3007
03:02:51.520 --> 03:02:57.200
thought. And how do we do that better? And also not just part in our process, but really show our work

3008
03:02:57.200 --> 03:03:01.920
right to our clients, let them see how we're thinking. And I think if we had done a lot of

3009
03:03:01.920 --> 03:03:05.600
this stuff earlier, we would have saved ourselves a lot of heartache. So thank you so much. There's

3010
03:03:05.600 --> 03:03:09.280
so much value that you gave us. I definitely got a lot of things that we want to put in practice

3011
03:03:09.280 --> 03:03:14.560
right away. All right. Glad to hear it. I know we're right on time, so I'll be really fast. But

3012
03:03:14.560 --> 03:03:18.880
yeah, if it's if it's fine for you, I can go over another 10 here because I want to make sure that

3013
03:03:18.880 --> 03:03:24.480
we don't just you know, that we get all the way through, you know. Yeah, we're good. We'll

3014
03:03:24.480 --> 03:03:29.520
probably we can take a break, guys, and maybe just chat. I think we spent 15, 20 more minutes

3015
03:03:29.520 --> 03:03:36.080
in context. We'd probably not got a ton of work trying to come back on Monday. But yeah,

3016
03:03:37.840 --> 03:03:45.680
it's insanely good value. I mean, we're worth, you know, all the expense of us all being on here,

3017
03:03:45.680 --> 03:03:52.560
you coming on for sure. We are, you know, it's the same thing to see you come in from like the

3018
03:03:52.880 --> 03:03:57.680
30,000 foot view and come down into something that you have no context of, which was perfect

3019
03:03:57.680 --> 03:04:02.640
because we forced us to explain and try to think things through. And we make so many assumptions

3020
03:04:02.640 --> 03:04:07.680
just as a team, all having the context kind of in the back of our head, but not, you know,

3021
03:04:07.680 --> 03:04:14.720
even as we were drawing this, we were having a lot of specific, we were kind of coming to certain

3022
03:04:14.720 --> 03:04:22.720
realizations as we went into version B and C and D. So that was, that was very powerful. And then

3023
03:04:24.320 --> 03:04:30.480
for yeah, it is just being able to watch you shape it. It's kind of like, yeah, we're kind of

3024
03:04:31.120 --> 03:04:35.120
doing some version of this. It's like you're listening to like, if you're just learning

3025
03:04:35.120 --> 03:04:39.120
beginner play guitar, it's like, yes, you're technically hitting all the right notes.

3026
03:04:39.120 --> 03:04:43.920
Is it music? I don't know if it's music that I'm going to like listen to, right? Where

3027
03:04:43.920 --> 03:04:48.480
you're someone play it the right way. You're like, but it's the emphasis on the right pieces

3028
03:04:48.480 --> 03:04:54.240
that were very helpful to see where you're emphasizing stuff that we were not emphasizing

3029
03:04:54.240 --> 03:04:59.840
enough. The framing, you know, we were kind of, it's like, I feel like we were just like

3030
03:05:00.000 --> 03:05:05.480
writing and like our version of like the pitch, which we, which we have

3031
03:05:05.480 --> 03:05:09.160
fought hard for with our clients of this, this idea of shaping, and it's a lot of

3032
03:05:09.160 --> 03:05:15.160
education, um, Us, you know, we want to, if we're, we're already pushing so hard

3033
03:05:15.160 --> 03:05:17.600
on explaining this to our clients, it's like, this is the way to do it.

3034
03:05:18.040 --> 03:05:22.400
But now that if we can get even better at it and we can even sharpen, um, you

3035
03:05:22.400 --> 03:05:26.360
know, our own skills at this, we can stand by that as even more like this,

3036
03:05:26.400 --> 03:05:28.060
this does solve a lot of problems.

3037
03:05:28.500 --> 03:05:31.020
Um, so I'm more than ever convinced on it.

3038
03:05:31.020 --> 03:05:33.780
I'm, I'm glad that we get to kind of see it at this level.

3039
03:05:33.780 --> 03:05:37.020
I don't know if we would have seen it, you know, just reading, reading the,

3040
03:05:37.060 --> 03:05:40.540
reading the book and us like doing this for, I mean, we've been doing it for

3041
03:05:40.780 --> 03:05:42.900
three or four years, I think as a team.

3042
03:05:43.500 --> 03:05:50.940
Um, and, uh, so I, I think it was really, I'm realizing as well that we won the

3043
03:05:50.940 --> 03:05:54.540
framing piece of it was different than shaping and I I'm seeing the shaping

3044
03:05:54.540 --> 03:05:58.900
really being part of the project in some ways, and I'm kind of even thinking like,

3045
03:05:58.900 --> 03:06:05.380
do we, um, put this after, like, do we, do we take the frame and we present that

3046
03:06:05.380 --> 03:06:09.740
to the clients and they, they buy that frame of like, we think it's this, this

3047
03:06:09.740 --> 03:06:14.140
amount of context, this is the sort of the frame and then the first, you know,

3048
03:06:14.140 --> 03:06:17.940
portion of it is actually spending and kind of build this cost into it, right.

3049
03:06:17.940 --> 03:06:18.820
As of shaping it.

3050
03:06:18.820 --> 03:06:23.100
Cause we got a lot of work done that if we had given, if I had given Janata,

3051
03:06:23.780 --> 03:06:27.740
and, and this is the most, like the DM thing was probably one of the

3052
03:06:27.740 --> 03:06:29.820
most shaped things we've ever done.

3053
03:06:30.380 --> 03:06:34.620
I'm like embarrassed to say, but like, I think if we put this against some other

3054
03:06:34.980 --> 03:06:37.540
projects, like this was a pretty good one.

3055
03:06:37.540 --> 03:06:39.900
So we're just going to pretend like the other ones don't exist.

3056
03:06:39.900 --> 03:06:41.620
We won't show you those, um, at all.

3057
03:06:41.900 --> 03:06:45.060
But, uh, this one was like, man, I feel pretty good about it.

3058
03:06:45.060 --> 03:06:48.900
Like then we, even last night I added some of the sketches and some, some of the

3059
03:06:48.900 --> 03:06:52.700
mock-ups I was like, what more, what more could we possibly put into this?

3060
03:06:52.820 --> 03:06:56.660
Like to get this more shaped and then like, you know, I'm feeling like maybe

3061
03:06:56.660 --> 03:06:59.300
it was 20 or 30%, you know, before this call.

3062
03:06:59.820 --> 03:07:01.740
Um, so that's, it's very helpful.

3063
03:07:01.740 --> 03:07:05.180
And I think we, but I think we kind of, we kind of dove into the middle of it.

3064
03:07:05.220 --> 03:07:09.700
And I, and I even feel like the context of being in, or the, the, the frame of

3065
03:07:09.700 --> 03:07:12.780
being in a notion document is, is wrong.

3066
03:07:12.780 --> 03:07:14.980
Like, it's just the wrong tool.

3067
03:07:15.060 --> 03:07:19.180
Um, it's kind of like using a physical board versus trying to like, like a white

3068
03:07:19.180 --> 03:07:22.220
board versus actually trying to put it into a word document.

3069
03:07:22.700 --> 03:07:25.940
You just don't have to, I think that was nice to kind of get us out of our comfort

3070
03:07:25.940 --> 03:07:30.700
zone and over to the, and the freedom of having just, just a ton of ideas, just

3071
03:07:30.700 --> 03:07:35.780
like spread across, that was very helpful for me, um, to kind of be set free a

3072
03:07:35.780 --> 03:07:39.860
little bit, because I feel like we were trying to go from like, we're trying to

3073
03:07:39.860 --> 03:07:42.340
do this all in our head, like, here's all the problems that we're trying to like

3074
03:07:42.380 --> 03:07:45.100
come up with this beautifully crafted finished document.

3075
03:07:45.420 --> 03:07:48.300
And then we just keep editing, editing the document until it was better.

3076
03:07:48.980 --> 03:07:51.260
But this was like a way to get all the ideas out first.

3077
03:07:51.740 --> 03:07:55.260
And now if we were to go and, you know, I don't even know, like, I kind of want to

3078
03:07:55.260 --> 03:08:00.460
like archive this version and go make a new document, you know, from this, I don't

3079
03:08:00.460 --> 03:08:04.660
know, I don't know what we need to even keep from the old, um, I feel like we'd

3080
03:08:04.660 --> 03:08:10.380
be bringing in a lot of like, uh, tech, uh, like, you know, we'd be much more

3081
03:08:10.380 --> 03:08:13.540
clear now and it doesn't really matter what we had to get to this point.

3082
03:08:13.540 --> 03:08:16.020
So anyway, it was, it was great to see you tackle it.

3083
03:08:16.100 --> 03:08:16.740
Definitely.

3084
03:08:16.780 --> 03:08:20.020
Um, you know, crazy valuable to us.

3085
03:08:20.140 --> 03:08:24.940
Um, it's just, I'm almost going to the next step of like, how do we like, you

3086
03:08:24.940 --> 03:08:29.180
know, we've got to go back and like redo all of our open projects that we

3087
03:08:29.180 --> 03:08:30.740
potentially, um, you know, have.

3088
03:08:30.740 --> 03:08:31.060
So.

3089
03:08:32.620 --> 03:08:33.860
This is a dumb question, Bruce.

3090
03:08:33.900 --> 03:08:42.180
Like I hear like, um, uh, that it's, it's, it's valuable that it's that, you

3091
03:08:42.180 --> 03:08:47.100
know, that, um, that the, you, that there were more ideas that, um, you had more

3092
03:08:47.100 --> 03:08:49.300
freedom that being in the document felt wrong.

3093
03:08:49.500 --> 03:08:55.900
But like, what, what's, what's, do you see something going, being different

3094
03:08:55.940 --> 03:08:59.660
downstream from this, in this project as a result of this, like what's the

3095
03:08:59.660 --> 03:09:02.300
impact or what's the, where does this, how does it make a difference?

3096
03:09:07.140 --> 03:09:10.420
I feel like, you know, we, we've kind of had this attitude, like we get as much

3097
03:09:10.420 --> 03:09:14.220
as we can in the pitch and then we just dive head first into it and figure it

3098
03:09:14.220 --> 03:09:20.260
out along the way, we sort of figured it out as a lot more deeply now.

3099
03:09:20.300 --> 03:09:23.780
So I feel like if we hand this off to Nada, like honestly, like we've really

3100
03:09:23.780 --> 03:09:30.420
like set Janata for the win, um, and much better, like there's still, obviously

3101
03:09:30.420 --> 03:09:33.540
there's going to be some, some challenges potentially as we get into it.

3102
03:09:34.180 --> 03:09:35.500
Um, questions will pop up.

3103
03:09:35.500 --> 03:09:41.060
We'll answer those, but I feel like, um, yeah, this is, this is a better way to

3104
03:09:41.060 --> 03:09:46.980
like work together as a, as a team, um, because we're, we're not expecting one

3105
03:09:46.980 --> 03:09:51.500
person to just figure all this stuff out that we just spent, you know, five of us

3106
03:09:51.540 --> 03:09:53.740
and three hours trying to resolve, right?

3107
03:09:53.740 --> 03:09:56.540
Like there was a lot, and of course we were doing it in baby steps today, but

3108
03:09:56.860 --> 03:09:59.980
it took like, this took a lot of different, this took a lot more.

3109
03:10:00.000 --> 03:10:04.060
time, whereas we're like, Hey, we're, you know, spend two hours, got the whole

3110
03:10:04.060 --> 03:10:07.980
thing shaped, let's dive into a two week project, you know, that's not that at all.

3111
03:10:07.980 --> 03:10:13.940
Like we've, you know, we've just put in, you know, whatever, 15 man hours of time

3112
03:10:13.940 --> 03:10:15.580
that's gone into the last few hours.

3113
03:10:15.980 --> 03:10:19.700
And now when we're still like, yeah, there's still 20, 30%, that's kind of

3114
03:10:19.700 --> 03:10:21.940
still unknown and we still need to go flush some stuff out.

3115
03:10:22.440 --> 03:10:24.540
Um, so that's it.

3116
03:10:25.800 --> 03:10:26.580
Yeah, cool.

3117
03:10:26.620 --> 03:10:27.120
Super.

3118
03:10:27.500 --> 03:10:33.180
Um, uh, do you guys, are you, do you feel clear on what comes next?

3119
03:10:34.300 --> 03:10:36.140
What do you do next on this project?

3120
03:10:38.900 --> 03:10:44.140
Yeah, I had notes just to like basically keep, um, determine that appetite,

3121
03:10:44.400 --> 03:10:48.340
have some discussion, like let just filling out the nine grid, you know,

3122
03:10:48.860 --> 03:10:51.080
and then having some discussion there and see where we can either

3123
03:10:51.500 --> 03:10:53.460
cut or push it up to three weeks.

3124
03:10:54.060 --> 03:10:58.560
Um, yeah, I'm happy for us to like the, the learning part.

3125
03:10:58.560 --> 03:10:59.640
So there's two parts to it.

3126
03:10:59.640 --> 03:11:01.560
Like, yes, let's go build group DM.

3127
03:11:01.600 --> 03:11:02.880
That's a side benefit.

3128
03:11:02.880 --> 03:11:07.440
Like the real, you know, frame of this is like, we, I'm happy to spend a little

3129
03:11:07.440 --> 03:11:10.600
more time on it because we're trying to do this a totally different way.

3130
03:11:10.600 --> 03:11:13.320
So that would be worth, that's where the third week would come or the

3131
03:11:13.480 --> 03:11:17.200
second or third week would come in is like, oh, we needed more calls.

3132
03:11:17.200 --> 03:11:19.800
We had this whole call, right.

3133
03:11:19.800 --> 03:11:24.220
To, to kind of justify this as even part of this bigger project of like our team

3134
03:11:24.220 --> 03:11:28.700
needs to learn our level up, like how we're shaping and executing projects.

3135
03:11:29.160 --> 03:11:31.200
And I a hundred percent, like I'm seeing the value.

3136
03:11:31.200 --> 03:11:34.480
I know this is going to be like a game changer for every client we're working

3137
03:11:34.480 --> 03:11:34.980
with.

3138
03:11:35.300 --> 03:11:38.200
And, um, this is sort of, there's, this is definitely, I think when we first

3139
03:11:38.200 --> 03:11:41.300
talked, Ryan, you're like, what would it mean if we got better at this?

3140
03:11:41.300 --> 03:11:43.680
I was like, well, it's like all these things that would, would

3141
03:11:43.680 --> 03:11:44.600
get, would get better.

3142
03:11:44.600 --> 03:11:45.100
Right.

3143
03:11:45.400 --> 03:11:49.660
Um, uh, and I can see that now, like, yes, this is, this is sort of the key

3144
03:11:49.660 --> 03:11:55.000
to how we can scale a lot and even do more work, um, more effectively

3145
03:11:55.300 --> 03:11:56.700
because we've, we've not left.

3146
03:11:57.440 --> 03:12:01.660
You know, we, we almost took like the hill chart idea as like, just start

3147
03:12:01.660 --> 03:12:06.500
the project and on day one of the two weeks and just sort of like go up the

3148
03:12:06.500 --> 03:12:10.660
hill, figuring out all this stuff along the way and somewhere in the middle,

3149
03:12:10.660 --> 03:12:11.700
it's going to feel a little easier.

3150
03:12:11.700 --> 03:12:14.500
And then it is, but I feel like we've kind of, we're kind of starting to

3151
03:12:14.500 --> 03:12:16.640
see the top of that, the hill here now.

3152
03:12:16.820 --> 03:12:17.320
Yes.

3153
03:12:17.380 --> 03:12:20.120
We're kind of like, now it's like when I hand it to Jonathan and it's

3154
03:12:20.120 --> 03:12:24.320
like pretty downhill, like he may run into some stuff, but nothing, we can't

3155
03:12:24.320 --> 03:12:28.400
solve in a couple of comments and maybe a quick, quick huddle here, there in Slack.

3156
03:12:28.480 --> 03:12:32.480
Um, so that's, that's a really key, key observation.

3157
03:12:32.520 --> 03:12:36.400
Um, when we teach it, when we teach, teach like shaping in real life, as

3158
03:12:36.400 --> 03:12:40.680
opposed to like the book version, um, the, the key update is that there's

3159
03:12:40.680 --> 03:12:45.700
really like just one hill and the shaping is the uphill and the building is the

3160
03:12:45.700 --> 03:12:46.200
downhill.

3161
03:12:46.660 --> 03:12:49.340
So like that, that feeling that you had that, like, we're already

3162
03:12:49.340 --> 03:12:50.620
feeling that we're at the top.

3163
03:12:50.860 --> 03:12:52.780
Like, that's what we want to feel.

3164
03:12:52.900 --> 03:12:57.180
We want to feel like that at kickoff, you know, yes, there's the downhill.

3165
03:12:57.180 --> 03:13:01.760
It kind of has these like nine bumps that kind of, there's going to be these

3166
03:13:01.760 --> 03:13:04.500
like a little bit up again and a little bit down again, like boom, boom, boom,

3167
03:13:04.500 --> 03:13:05.560
boom on your way down.

3168
03:13:05.560 --> 03:13:08.680
But, um, but it's not like a climb up, you know what I mean?

3169
03:13:08.680 --> 03:13:12.140
Like you're basically going down through the, through the, through the whole build

3170
03:13:12.140 --> 03:13:12.640
time.

3171
03:13:13.380 --> 03:13:13.880
Perfect.

3172
03:13:14.780 --> 03:13:15.280
Yeah.

3173
03:13:15.460 --> 03:13:15.960
Awesome.

3174
03:13:15.960 --> 03:13:16.460
Cool.

3175
03:13:16.460 --> 03:13:18.340
Also, I want to be able to type as fast as you.

3176
03:13:21.680 --> 03:13:22.180
Yeah.

3177
03:13:23.480 --> 03:13:26.380
Well, let's see how long, maybe we'll get the neural link in the wristband

3178
03:13:26.380 --> 03:13:31.040
soon or whatever, you know, like you either using AI to dictate this right

3179
03:13:31.040 --> 03:13:32.480
now, or you're just insane with that.

3180
03:13:32.480 --> 03:13:33.880
And I was like, Nope, he's funny.

3181
03:13:33.880 --> 03:13:37.880
I, I, I didn't realize I was sharing my screen as I was transcribing here.

3182
03:13:38.120 --> 03:13:38.620
Yeah.

3183
03:13:39.200 --> 03:13:45.000
Well, good thing I wasn't doing anything embarrassing, you know, um, you know,

3184
03:13:45.000 --> 03:13:46.980
that just kind of felt like this is the important part.

3185
03:13:46.980 --> 03:13:48.600
I got to make sure I capture this.

3186
03:13:49.020 --> 03:13:50.840
Um, fantastic.

3187
03:13:50.840 --> 03:13:51.340
Okay.

3188
03:13:51.340 --> 03:13:53.320
By the way, sorry, I had a little bit of a camera issue.

3189
03:13:53.320 --> 03:13:56.200
It looks like along the way, but anyway, we were looking at the screen together.

3190
03:13:56.200 --> 03:13:58.160
So, um, fantastic.

3191
03:13:58.160 --> 03:13:58.960
Good. Okay guys.

3192
03:13:59.120 --> 03:14:03.440
So, um, Bruce, we'll be in touch about what you want to do, um, for June and,

3193
03:14:03.440 --> 03:14:08.560
um, uh, uh, thanks everybody, you know, really nice work, really nice team, nice

3194
03:14:08.560 --> 03:14:12.440
work, and, uh, really happy with where we got to, thanks Ryan.

3195
03:14:12.440 --> 03:14:13.000
This is awesome.

3196
03:14:13.600 --> 03:14:14.360
All right, everybody.

3197
03:14:14.360 --> 03:14:14.960
Take care.

3198
03:14:15.000 --> 03:14:15.600
Have a good one.

3199
03:14:15.640 --> 03:14:16.140
Cheers.