All right, welcome to Monday, May 19th, Men's Heart Check-In.
So there's a few of us here, probably some other guys will jump on here and this is that,
come in and out.
This is how we do it.
Guys, what's going on?
What's on your mind and heart this evening?
David, did you get my email?
I'm sorry?
Did you get my email?
I did get your email, yes.
I've been out of town the last five days.
And I just wanted to make sure you got it.
That's all I'm concerned about.
No, yeah, no, I did.
I did get it.
For sure.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And yeah.
That was an interesting week here with the prayer on Sunday night and the confession
on Saturday and Sunday.
There's only a few of us guys on there, but what was the confession that was quite interesting
and that really helped a lot of people to confess and release a lot of the lies that
they've been hearing from the enemy.
And Josh was online, I appreciated that very much for Josh going out.
He opened himself right up and so was Charles, and they did a great job of opening up and
just, especially in front of women, what Charles had to confess was, I was proud of him because
that's something that many men would confess in front of women.
And so he did a great job.
And so if we, you know, see him tonight, that'd be nice.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was, I didn't catch all of, I didn't catch that.
So I didn't see what happened there.
And so you felt like, you felt like there was some breakthrough, felt like it was good
to hear other men just be transparent, vulnerable?
Well that basically is.
That's a hard thing to do for us men to do is to be, especially in front of ladies, because
we're trying to make a good impression in front of them all the time.
It's best if we don't want to look weak in so many words.
And because we are the protector and the providers, and it's very difficult to confess anything
in front of them, but it's good practice because we need to confess these things before our
future spouses, if anything, you know, it just really placed us in a place of humility,
the proper type of humility.
As long as we're received in that way, because so many people can judge us so easily, women
can judge us so easily by our confession, it's like, well, I don't want to be near that
guy.
He's been near drugs.
I mean, that's the hope for the women that they'll realize that here's a man who's strong
enough to be able to say, listen, I'm confessing in front of all you ladies, and I'm hoping
to see it as a strength, not a weakness in my life.
Right.
And that's a big part of it.
Yeah.
And it's true.
I mean, women definitely are going to want to see a man, you know, obviously we talked
a lot about the first need of women to feel secure, to feel, you know, feel the strength
of the masculine in their life.
But at the same time, they're also really wanting that masculine, especially if it's
a person that's playing a specific role in their life, like a father, a significant other
boyfriend, you know, somebody who's, you know, very significant for them to also be
very kind and compassionate and on the heels of that, also very humble to the point where
that can be transparent.
You know, they want their men to be open emotionally.
So women want that, but you're right.
First and foremost, the security.
And then it's just like, and then to go right to the emotional part of it, which we have
a difficulty being in connecting with our emotions as it is.
And then on top of that being vulnerable.
So, but there is a, there's a precariousness to it because it's like, yes, as men, we do
want to exhibit and show strength.
And if we show too much vulnerability, too much of this, and we look like we're not coming
from a healed place, then obviously that's where probably we're going to give the wrong
impression.
But yes, if you can come from a position of strength, like, look, this is who I am today.
Not perfect, but I'm going through this, but I will confess to you.
I will reveal to you something that would, could, could make me look bad in your eyes.
And it's, I'm doing this by way of vulnerability and confession.
Yeah, that can be super powerful.
And it can be very appreciative, very like, oh, wow, that.
they can be very compassionate in that and so it's good stuff. How do you guys feel about that?
How comfortable are you with being transparent with somebody who you are trying to impress?
Like where's the line do you feel that is? It's like oh like how far do I go in this? Like you
know obviously we're talking a lot about some of the dating practices like just that alone like
first second third date that area right there it's very important we're trying to build a bridge
we're not trying to build in disconnection so it's a little bit too much to go vulnerable at
that stage but a certain stage it's like well you know how much is too much and so how do you how
do you guys feel about that? Where do you think the line is for that? And maybe that's a little
gray I mean that might be a little bit too I don't want to be absolutist with this I don't
want to be rule oriented with this. Anybody got any good advice they can share?
Nobody? Hey David.
I think it's yeah well you can go ahead if you want Daniel. No no you came off mute first I'll
get in line it's good you got it. I guess the thing I'm struggling with is I'm coming from
the other angle I used to be too much of a people pleaser used to say way too much way too quickly
anxious attachment so and the other struggle is just the past relationship that I had which was
basically a situation ship was very abusive so it's just dealing with the cognitive dissonance
between you know I guess being very people pleasing and very empathic I mean was I am I
really that way or was I that way because of things that I picked up all along the way from
my parents and all that right and it's not really who I am so that's the struggle that's what I mean
by the cognitive dissonance it's like it's fighting between am I really this empathic person
or did I just do that as a survival mechanism just to deal with my family growing up right so
but yeah absolutely it definitely comes and yeah this is why the rules hard and fast rules
don't really work in this because we're all in different parts of our journey you know some of
us are at a greater level of healing even in certain areas there might be like a certain
area where I'm really needing some healing but somebody else is like really you know very healed
and healthy hearted in that area so it could be like area by area but yeah it definitely comes
from where where you're coming from if you're like look I have a history of I guess a simple
way to look as I made this value stack last week in terms of like high love low strength
high strength low love but really what we want to be as redeemed men we want to operate in high
strength and high love and having a balance of that you know so in a situation where you're like
I have very low strength but I have a high value for love and so you may not be equating
you know being open and transparent with like love and being too like too casual or too open
with love but it comes from a position of wanting to be accepted it comes from a position of wanting
to like value feelings value acceptance value sort of like the intrinsic things of a relationship
first and there's some damage there so you're operating in a high value of love but with but
you need the strength to come up so you like you need the value of strength to come up in your life
in terms of not just physical strength but like maturity confidence this is where all of those
values lie in that strength side and love side and so like if you're you're dealing with in this
situation like hey I'm really still healing I have a high value for love needing to be heard
needing to be needed to be validated needing to be understood needing to be all that but I lack
this area of confidence and maturity to where like I'm finding it you know difficult when I'm too
vulnerable so I'm over valuing this love side this emotional side versus just producing or
showing quiet strength you know like especially in a new relationship or a budding relationship
so I think a good way to look at is this value of like love and strength.
You know, like the sort of like the two,
and then what we want to do in a ideal sense,
a really healthy sense is we want a high value for love,
high value for strength.
And the only reason I'm sharing that is because I think
that gives us a real simple model to,
for us to like help us get into some balance.
Does that make sense?
David Henshaw.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so like the position you're coming from
in terms of the relationship, you're going,
hey, I've had a high value on the emotional,
the love side to where like that part of the relationship
to where it's become a little bit more overextended
because, you know, I've noticed that I was maybe
a little too much in touch that it's definitely based
in some trauma, so I need some heart healing there.
And then, but I'm going to level up on the strength side
in terms of the relationship,
which will help to balance that out a little bit.
Make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make me happy to stop,
but I took a step and I said, if there's room,
they move the spotlight to the 29th,
but I'm going to be on it if there's still room.
They said that email again next week.
So, yeah.
Yeah, and see, that's the thing.
That's a perfect example.
Like what you're needing is like a level of vulnerability,
which requires confidence and requires strength
in the area of like, oh, I, like boldness, being confident.
So you're like, I'm going to sign up for this.
I'm going to go for this.
That's a position, that's an exercise of strength
for you to come into a situation to be spotlighted
rather than try to be understood.
So that's a level of confidence.
That's a bold move.
That's like a, well, oh, that's a strength move.
So it's an exercise of strength coming in.
That's what you need.
That's the value that you need to hold onto
that will balance out some of that love side of it.
Yeah.
My only concern is I don't want to say too much
on when I get spotlighted, because that's where I'm at.
You don't have to.
You don't, you know, I don't want to.
The spotlight session is a way to,
it's a very cultivated way to be able to present yourself.
Because Jackie gives you a very specific,
like do this, do that.
This is what we need to hear from you.
It's very short.
It doesn't go on and on and on.
You know what I'm saying?
So it's a very, very, but it takes boldness,
you know, for you to kind of say, yeah, I'm going to do that.
I'm going to sign up and have some confidence to do that.
So that's good.
That's a good exercise.
Yeah.
One of the things that really helped me was just remembering,
I think Jackie said about a month ago, but she said it.
And then I thought about it.
It's true.
Like the longer you keep waiting and dragging your feet,
the more cold your heart gets.
You got to, you got to say, this is it.
Take action.
Yeah.
That's a strength.
That's a strength move.
That's what I'm trying to talk about.
That is a move that elevates the strength side
of what you're trying to do.
Something that you're like, maybe afraid to do,
but you're doing it in boldness.
You're like, I'm just going to do it afraid anyway,
or I'm not going to wait on it any longer.
I'm just going to make that move.
That's a strength move in a healthy way.
Right?
Yeah.
Daniel, what do you got?
Yeah.
I was going to throw in, just throw in my two cents
or my kind of thought and see what the, see if, you know,
you want to throw some arrows at it.
I think you're using the word strength and love, right?
Yeah.
Is that right?
I think I would probably say strength and vulnerability
because we're talking about like, I kind of stepped away.
I had a grocery delivery,
but it sounded like someone had like kind of
been really vulnerable and open on a call,
one of the larger co-ed calls.
And I think, you know, the question came up of like,
basically how much do you share with your romantic partner?
And I think, you know, all like,
all relationships are contextual, right?
And so like, if I'm having an issue with Microsoft Excel,
I'm not going to bring it to this HeartWork course
because you guys are not my Microsoft Excel guys, right?
I have people at work that I can call
and I can get like Microsoft Excel conversations.
I've got people that I can run with.
I've got lifting buddies.
I called my accountability partner today
to run something by him.
And so I think, first of all,
you shouldn't wait until you're in a romantic relationship
to start building an accountability system.
You should try to establish that like tomorrow,
like yesterday.
a year ago, right?
And so I think, you know, there's this,
one of the criticisms I've seen of like,
of our modern view of marriage
is that we expect it to be everything.
We expect to be able to bring and receive everything
from this one relationship.
Yeah.
And I'm wondering, I'm kind of wondering out loud here
and feel free to tell me what you think.
I don't know.
I almost feel like for accountability
and a lot of the vulnerability sides,
because a woman does want a strong man.
And I've heard story after story of, you know,
the guy finally opens up and like cries
in front of the woman and she leaves him the next day.
I've heard so many things like that.
And so I almost wonder like how, like how,
when women say they want their men to be vulnerable,
do they really?
Like, do they really want to see that weak side?
And is it more appropriate to bring that
to a group like this of like,
hey guys, I really messed up last night.
I need you to pray for me.
I need, you know, I need to be able to hop off
and message Kenton and kind of give him the details
and have him pray for me and hold me accountable.
To me personally, that actually feels safer
than being like, hey, I know we've only been dating
for three weeks,
but I need to talk to you about this struggle.
But I need to talk to you about this struggle
and potentially just having a whole relationship implode
because you were too vulnerable.
So I don't know.
What do you guys think?
Now we're talking about,
I just want to clarify some things there
because when I say the strength and love thing,
what I'm trying to do is I introduced this concept
last week very briefly.
And what I was talking about is just to make
things really simple.
Those two categories are extremely, extremely broad.
And it's kind of like this,
the world sort of gives us two choices in masculinity.
It gives us the sense of like,
it's almost like the type A, type B.
It's just like the strength, high value of strength,
low value of love, concern, compassion, all the things.
And we'll just call that category love.
And then the other option is if you're not that,
well, then you must be this.
You have to be someone who is high value of emotions,
love, sincerity, encouragement, compassion,
all the different things in the love category,
but you're just very weak in terms of like leadership,
your own lifestyle, your own self-discipline,
you're not an initiator, all that kind of stuff.
And the third way, which is really important
in terms of like a kingdom man, the righteous version
of like where meekness is powerful,
meekness is not weakness, it's power under control.
It's the elevation of both sides in a balance of like
strength and the broad category we call love,
which vulnerability is over in this area.
So specifically, yeah,
we were talking about a very vulnerable moment.
So that's just a point of clarification
is what I'm talking about as far as the two sides.
And, but yeah, it definitely is important
the context in which you're sharing.
In the situation where the woman sees the man crumble
and then leaves, that's obviously a traumatic response
on her part in terms of like, oh my God,
this person I was placing my confidence and my trust in
just crumbled on me and then it frightened her.
And then she makes a very, very impassioned decision
to like be gone, you know?
And of course that's a traumatic response
to that kind of a situation.
That's an unhealthy hearted situation.
I'm not trying to blame her.
I'm just trying to say that, you know,
a woman with a healthy response from the feminine
would look at a man who she is in relationship with
and go, wow, my man, my husband
or whatever the relationship was
is that he's really having a critical moment here.
And then she's like operating some compassion
and some understanding, some love.
And then also appreciates the fact that he's willing
to be vulnerable in front of her, you know?
I was meeting with a guy yesterday
and that was a couple that we're friends with.
He's new, we've known her, my wife and I have known her
for more than 20 years.
And she just recently got married to this guy.
So we just met him a couple of months ago
and we're seeing again for like the third time or whatever.
And just some good friends and he's a really good,
solid guy, but he's had some situations
with his former marriage.
And he's a really like,
like to sit down across the table from him.
He's like a kind of an intimidating dude,
just on his looks, you know?
He's just got to look to him as like,
he's just kind of like.
yeah, what's up, you know, like intimidating kind of guy.
But I was able to see his heart yesterday
because they were sharing with us.
And they just said, they were like,
hey, we were having a lot of fun the night before
and all this kind of stuff.
And we were just kind of out,
and then we saw the people,
but hey, just, we want to have lunch with you
because we want to bounce some blended family stuff off
with you.
He's got adult children
and they're not taking well to this new marriage
and this and that.
And so, but I saw some of that exterior
that he's built up sort of like,
and he shed like one tear.
I was like, ah, for a guy like this, that's powerful.
Like I could see where he was like,
this was a moment of vulnerability,
but in a good way because what it showed
was just that one tear showed a wealth of information
based on the story he was sharing with us.
And it was, that was, is that this man is a good man
and he really cares about his kids
and he wants the best for his family.
It's just that he's been so beaten down
by initially in his origin family experience by his mother,
who was very critical and cruel.
And then he was married for, faithfully married
to a woman who was very much the same way.
She was very insecure, very critical, very cruel.
I mean, we could go into details about it,
but it was definitely a really, really,
really hard situation.
And he dealt with it for, I think almost 40 years
that he was married to her and, or maybe 35 years,
but a very long time.
And you could just see that in this new relationship
that he's now having, like he's not used to somebody
literally being kind, being affectionate, being loving,
being open, being understanding,
being okay with him being vulnerable.
So he still had that toughness, but at the same time,
as he's sharing, like, hey, what do I do about this?
What do we do that?
And we were able to kind of like give some good advice
and talk as friends and as people who are, you know,
dealing with, you know, blended family issues.
And so there's some good sharing that went on,
but I could just see his level of like his,
his like for the first time,
maybe like breathing clearly and freely
because he's realizing he's now in a situation
where there's some relief in his love life.
He doesn't have to walk on eggshells.
He doesn't have to overly perform.
He doesn't have to be this like mega strength.
He can let loose a little bit.
He can be vulnerable.
He can be open.
And then he can show his compassion,
his love for his family because he just wants the best.
And, but it's going to take a minute.
It's going to take a minute for this new relation
to settle in and for that blended,
some of those blended issues to work out.
But it was super powerful and super awesome
to see this man going through this.
And I was like, oh, okay, this is who this guy is.
Because the first time I, first couple of times I met him,
it was just very like fun having dinner,
just like laughing, telling stories
and, you know, like getting to know the guy.
But yesterday I was able to really see the man,
you know, and it was really, it was really wild
because I was confused for a minute.
I was like, who is this guy?
Is this guy not good?
Is this guy not well?
Is this guy, you know, does this guy have like something
that I'm not seeing?
And then I saw it through a moment of vulnerability.
And I was like, oh, okay,
this guy actually really is a fabulous,
he's even better than what I thought.
I'm not trying to judge the guy.
I was just trying to like see into him and see like,
hey, how can we help this guy?
And of course he's a new husband to our friend
that we've known for 20 years.
And of course we're like, you know,
the first time it was just like,
she was like, hey, I need you to make my, you know,
this guy I'm dating, you know,
they weren't married when we first met him.
And we're like, okay, we'll come check him out.
You know, so he was like on the, like the three of us,
me, Jackie and our friend, we were like, you know,
giving the grilling him a little bit, you know,
kind of like, okay, well, who are you?
Where are you from?
You know, all this kind of stuff.
And, but it was really cool to have like a sort of like
a full circle moment with him to go, okay,
man, this guy is even more perfect for Gigi
and more like in line, but he's going to get,
there were some righteous redemption moments
in that conversation.
It was really powerful, but it required vulnerability.
It required his level of strength to come down
to meet this level of love that needed to elevate
this vulnerability.
this openness, this level of like truth
to come up in that area.
And it was really powerful to see that balance working out.
Who has some other thoughts, questions?
We're talking about the sort of like balancing strength
and love in the masculine,
but we're also talking about like when it's appropriate
and how to share and who to share it with.
Like at the beginning of a relation,
but in the midst of a relationship,
in the relationship at all.
I really do, and I'll say this and I'll let Thomas go
because I know he just popped up my screen.
I thought you had your hand raised or something.
But I will say, I do believe that
in the marriage relationship,
that sometimes there's can be sort of a catch-22
where you both are like, Jackie,
you've probably heard Jackie say this before like this,
where you're both are poking each other's orphan.
So, you know, you're like really like the guy,
you know, it's like, he's doing something
that's really annoying her, poking her orphan.
And then of course her response is doing the same,
poking his orphan.
So they're just going,
they're just in this catch-22 situation.
And it may just be for a certain moment
or a couple of days or a certain season, whatever.
And I do believe in the course of a marriage relationship,
husband and wife have both the opportunity,
but I believe it's incumbent upon as a leader,
as the husband, as a leader, to break the catch-22.
And the way he does that is he goes out
instead of trying to reason,
instead of trying to like come at her
with either some explanation,
which probably is not going to help.
Cause she's like, I don't want to hear your explanation.
I don't want to hear your reasoning.
I don't want to hear your excuses, whatever.
Or try to come up from a position of strength and say,
hey, hey, no, that's not the way it is.
It's going to be this way.
You know, so none of those typically approaches work
in some of these catch-22 situations
where you're in like the cycle of frustrating each other.
And sometimes it requires,
I believe the man has a certain authority
and a leadership ability to be able to step outside
that catch-22 moment
and really capture the heart of the father,
capture, go into his own position of strength in the spirit,
in prayer and in worship,
and maybe even in confiding in good counsel
or confiding in good advice
to where it's like I'm sharing with somebody who I trust
and can help me like level my head
so that I can come back into this relationship
and stop this cycle.
Does that make sense?
You know, and I believe that's a strength
and a role that men, the husband can play in a marriage
to break that cycle.
And if he gets good at it,
he can really break that very quickly and very effectively
and reduce those moments
where you get into this sort of this frustration cycle.
Because men typically don't want to,
they're always after peace.
And so if it's this circle thing
where you're both poking each other's orphan
and there's just no peace,
he's gonna do anything to have the peace,
including just shutting up, closing down,
whatever, babe, you know, whatever you want
and just concede,
which then doesn't really solve the problem
because it doesn't solve his heart issues.
He's not able to express, not able to communicate.
He's not able to like talk about his side.
And then she goes on possibly believing
that maybe she was 100% right.
And now she's building a foundation on something
that maybe isn't completely true or completely righteous.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah.
And so-
David, I was gonna say in the Gottman literature,
I think they call that flooding.
Flooding?
Flooding, yeah.
The woman comes at the man very intensely
and he gets flooded.
He's in fight or flight.
And the last thing you wanna do is fight your wife, right?
So he shuts down.
Yeah.
So a guy who's valuing high love, low strength
is gonna be shut down in that situation.
Cause he's like, well, I'm not an abuser.
I'm not some guy is going to lose this crap and go off on my wife.
I'm not going to yell.
I'm not going to scream.
I'm certainly not going to like lay a hand on her.
I'm not going to do any of that.
So I guess I just got to shut up and just take this for now until she calms down.
And how many scenarios have you seen?
You've lived, you felt you've observed you've, you know, in that case.
And that never works.
At some point, you have to have a meaningful conversation.
At some point you need to have like, um, you know, a coming to terms
with like, Hey, what just happened?
You know, this is the way I was feeling that way.
And sometimes it gets so emotional.
You're not able to have that until later, later on.
And I used to use a technique that I learned very early on because when I
came into a relationship with Jackie, um, I'd never been in relationship
with a woman like her, she's just different.
She wasn't like my mom.
She wasn't like my ex-wife.
She wasn't, she's very passionate.
She's very knows exactly what she feels and where she stands.
She's like, she's one of those people that like, you know,
exactly where Jackie stands.
It's not a mystery.
She's either happy.
She's like concerned about something.
She's passionate about something.
She's trying to, she's trying to save the world or, you know what?
She's always, you always know exactly where she stands.
And, um, I was just not used to that because I was just like too much.
I was like, man, calm down.
Like, it's not that big a deal.
Like I might've said the wrong word.
I said the wrong thing.
I did the wrong thing.
I like, I didn't really mean that.
And now I'm now I'm backpedaling.
I'm trying to explain myself.
And that never works because I don't want to hear the excuses.
And so I'm like, oh man, this is not where nothing's working.
And I would do this thing when I would go out and I would say, I called it
yelling in the spirit and it was just praying.
I would go to a place where I was just by myself and I could be as loud as I want
to be.
Sometimes it was outside.
Sometimes it was in another room.
Sometimes it was in the car or whatever.
And I just had the conversation that I needed to have.
But without her, because I needed to be heard, I needed to be said and what I,
what I, the revelation that I got was, is that what I was saying wasn't just me
spouting off, it was me going to the father and saying, you're her father and
I'm going to talk to the father about the daughter, not in a disparaging way, but in
a way that I'm coming by.
Like, I think this is what happened.
This is where I'm at.
This is what I think where she's at.
And I need your help father to speak to your daughter because I need her to
understand this part of it.
I need her to understand where I'm coming from.
I need to understand what I'm coming for.
I need her to understand what I'm coming for.
I need her to understand where my heart is in that, even though I screwed up, I
messed up, I might've said the wrong word, I had made, I did something that
triggered her, didn't mean to, didn't know I did.
Right.
Sometimes I did, sometimes I was operating in my own flesh and my own
trauma and my own insecurities.
And so I was not operating in my best self either.
And miraculously, like supernaturally, this is why I called it yelling in the
spirit, because I learned that I could go to father God outside of the context of
our husband and wife relationship.
And I could break the cycle of the catch 22.
I could break the cycle of the poking of each other's orphans and our own
trauma responses to each other.
And I could have her and I trusted her enough that I could have her.
Her enough.
And this is one of the things that why I married her.
Cause I found out about this very earlier at the end of the day, she always wanted
to please the heart of the father.
I understood that about her and I was such a, such a blessing because regardless
of how crazy it got, I could trust that she could still hear God's voice, speak
to her and go, Hey, my daughter, did you ever think of this?
Did you ever think of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is that was
needed to be said, and I didn't have to communicate it, wasn't trying to
abdicate or, or I wasn't trying to get out of communicating, but it just wasn't
working, whatever I was trying to communicate.
And so I believe that's part of, um, um, a resource call it the three.
Cord strand of marriage relationship.
whatever you want to call it, how you spiritualize it, however you want to, but
that's something that became very powerful. Good bit of advice for you,
Paul, you have your hand raised. What do you got?
Um, well,
it's a great topic. Um, I don't have any real advice except for maybe what not to do as I
continue to learn, um, you know, about relationships. Like I grew up with like, um,
it's not natural for me to be vulnerable. It wasn't in my family of origin. It wasn't
modeled to me, but it's something I have worked really hard, uh, in safe spaces like these,
um, to be, I would even say even safer, just like where that's the intention.
We're being intentional to be with other men, be vulnerable and be present. And all these things
help men feel seen, save scenes, um, soothe, safe, secure, you know, all these heart things, right.
Um, it's been, so it came on, my heart woke up, right. And then all of a sudden I go into
these relationships, I'd say healthier, uh, more awake with my heart and wanting this,
um, and, and not completely healed, of course, attachment wounds and things like that. And,
um, but knowing that I want that did not really knowing the timing of how that to answer your
question, like when that comes in the relationship, exactly. Knowing that eventually I want it,
I want early signs at an appropriate place. You know what I mean? And it's been a learning curve
to realize my, I, I have a part that I'm just now realizing. I really believe the best of these
women that there has, I actually been in some relationships where they're not being vulnerable
ever. I was in an almost nine month one and I had to end it because like it w it would have been
just doing fun things together. You know what I mean? Like I want more, I wanted her to show up
and I was showing up and we even joked towards the end that I was the woman in their relationship
and she was the guy, you know what I mean? And it, and it was like, okay, well that's not what
I'm looking for. And so I don't want to be like, Hey, right away on the first phone call or first
date, be vulnerable. You know what I mean? Pour it out your deepest, darkest secret. Cause that's
not appropriate. Um, like I said, the reason that's funny, like you're the guy and I'm the
girl. And I think this because the default, right. Is that women are more vulnerable, emotional,
willing to talk that kind of men are not. And of course you've got this yin and yang thing going on
and you want both people to be in these healthy hearted, um, stages of their life to come together.
And that's not, I mean, that's really what we're attempting to do with last year's single
and this program and this community. We're attempting to give the opportunity for everyone to
come to a healthy, at least a level of healthy heartedness to where they can come
into this kind of marriage minded relationship. And I love how you're saying that.
And, uh, so what, so, uh, where's it at right now?
Well, like I said, I've, I've, I've started to learn earlier on without doing a giant
mistest that's awkward and inappropriate timing wise. Um, like, uh, because a lot of some of the
women were like listening to me as I was being vulnerable, but then they weren't reciprocating.
And, um, so now I just started talking to a woman who's, um, I mean, I, and the other thing is I was
looking back on like, what am I dating profile? Um, bios. I try to put it in there, try to be
intentional. Eventually I want to have a relationship with vulnerability and, you know,
emotional closeness on, you know, something to that effect. And so I just started talking to a
woman who put that in her profile as well. And, um, real early, but so, I mean, I don't know,
it's like, I think talking about it, maybe casting that vision might be a little helpful,
but also recognizing, you know, like boundaries are important and getting to that place at the
appropriate time, little by little, you know, talking about how I got mad at the Taco Bell guy
because he didn't give me enough cheese as a form of vulnerability and then move on to something
truly vulnerable later. You know what I mean? That's good. That's good. No, I mean, I think
what you're bringing up is you may not really be realizing it, but it's timing. And we were just
in Nashville last five days. And we also met one of our former staff people who has come into a
new relationship and.
And it was all based on timing in terms of this,
these things like working out, like you're talking about,
like, well, I learned, I was all the way here,
but then I learned this.
And then, so now I'm like balancing that out.
And that timing was important
because even in their testimony, they were like, yeah,
even just a year ago or two years ago had we met.
And she was one of those individuals.
She's well under her fifties and never been married.
So her story was like,
I'm in my fifties and never been married.
Like, when am I going to find the guy?
When am I going to find the guy?
So like, there was all these,
it was like this whole time, like, you know,
like it was getting sad.
She was getting, you know,
she had gone through many, several cycles of like,
oh man, this is never going to happen
or when is this going to happen?
And she's a great lady, but,
and she, you know, she could always kind of rally
and get positive and all that.
And so she'd have several cycles of that,
but it wasn't until the timing of when she met this man
and there's a whole story behind it.
And it just, the timing was very important.
So not to get like hooked on sort of like,
oh, just wait on God because we're not doing the waiting,
but you've been doing the preparing
and the timing is happening.
So to be encouraged, I guess, is what I'm trying to say
is that we just had a story where timing was so important,
you know, in that way,
in that way where it's just like that preparation
and, you know, sharing too much, sharing too little,
whatever it was.
And there was just like, it now kind of a striking.
So it may be a very timing situation for you right now,
which is pretty exciting.
And I'm sharing that to encourage you.
So I love that.
I love hearing what you're saying.
That's encouraging.
And then along those lines also,
this could be a whole nother prompt,
you know, another day or something,
but I've been meditating on like,
do, is there something about me that I'm,
am I inviting myself to be treated in a certain way?
Like maybe some more heart healing needs to happen.
Like, am I inviting myself to be with women?
Or was I, and talking about timing
and my progression as well,
like to breathe with people that would maybe listen,
but wouldn't reciprocate, you know, the vulnerability.
And now, and then as I, I don't know, you know,
but intrinsically or something, am I,
how can I project that I actually want to,
you know, maybe it's just a matter of being ready
and then they can sense that.
And then maybe that would attract the right person
that would actually, because I saw the pattern.
I'm like, oh, I'm attracting women that are more,
are this way.
I don't want that kind of person.
But, and to your point with that, with Jackie,
like when you met her, like these women,
I, they, maybe they felt safe to me internally.
Like deep down inside, because I had like a controlling mom
and a really outspoken sister who was kind of like my mom.
And I was just like, I learned passivity.
I learned like what you were talking about,
how to just buy and get attention that way.
And I don't want that now as a grown man in a relationship.
And so how do I, it's like,
I have to be willing to take a risk to be with somebody
that I don't, I can't figure out,
I might not feel safe because she's different.
I can't, I can't peg her in order to get a different result
of with somebody that maybe would actually work for me.
You know what I mean?
To be compatible with, you know?
So this is, and this is why God is our matchmaker
and Holy Spirit is like, as we are yielding to this process,
we have our part to play.
And this is why Holy Spirit and God
also have their part to play
because they are the ones in that timing.
And as you're preparing,
you're definitely a different person
than you were six months ago, a year ago,
two years ago, five years ago, type of thing in this way.
And so that's obvious.
And so you've been doing your work,
but at the same time, God's also been doing his work,
which is he's the, you know,
Jackie also talks about like, you know,
that person might not have been the one,
but they were, you know, the one on your way to the one,
you know, sort of thing.
So those steps and those things,
that journey that you go through is critical
to the ultimate, you know, being in relationship
with the person that's gonna be your spirit mate.
And that's why it's not about you bringing it out.
You know, I'm not saying you're saying that,
but I'm just saying that that's why it's just like,
you come to a point where like,
I've done all I can do, you know, to this point, you know,
not saying that you're never gonna work on yourself again,
or you're done working, but you're like,
this is more, but I come to a level of like, okay,
this is where I'm at.
And so Lord meet me in this place and he's going to,
and he's going to do that.
That's why it's really awesome.
When that hits, you're like, wow.
A lot of things come to the understanding.
A lot of things, the story is dramatic.
And it's like, this is it.
Like, if you ever want a this is it moment,
it turns like, how do you know this is the one?
It's like, you can't explain it.
Because when it happens, the light bulb just goes off.
And you're like, ah, I've come all this way to be right here.
And you don't know it until you're at that right here
moment.
And that can be encouraging and sometimes discouraging
to people, because you're just like, oh, they just
want it so bad right now.
And I'm like, well, maybe it's a patience thing.
Maybe it's a growth thing.
But I don't know what to tell you.
But I'm just saying, it's that moment.
That's what happens when you come to that moment of like,
this is really the one.
I really feel like this is the relationship.
So that's exciting.
You should be encouraged.
And everyone else should be encouraged as well.
Because you all are doing your hard work.
You all are doing your preparation.
You all are doing what you can do
to shift your life in whatever that area is for you.
So I love it.
Who else has something on this tonight?
Hey, David.
Stefan here.
Just a quick comment on that.
I think a lot of it, for me at least,
comes down to attachment style.
So I used to be anxiously attached.
And I've fortunately started to realize that.
And I think I'm way more secure now.
But because of that initially, I did share or over-share,
I think.
But the more you get secure, the less pressure
you put on yourself to share or to pull away if you avoid it.
And I'm currently in a relationship.
And that was one of our conversations
where we shared where we are at in terms of attachment style.
And so we've got an understanding of each other
way better than what we did when we met.
And it really opens up communication and understanding
of each other.
So that's really good for me to understand and realize
and grow in as we go.
And that's different than any other relationship
you've ever had, I suppose?
The fact that I understand where I come from.
Yeah.
Yes, it is very different to anything
I've been involved before.
Yeah.
That's very exciting.
And just on that point, we're looking forward to Simba's
because we want to get involved in that as soon as possible.
I love that.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing that, man.
That's awesome.
That's a win.
That's powerful.
And that's hitting the goal, man.
That's where we're all headed.
Amen.
That's good.
And I hope you understand, guys, that I've been married now
to Jackie for 18 years.
But there's still some stuff that I'm working on,
we're working on.
And we kind of raided our marriage the other day.
And it was kind of funny.
And like I told you earlier, Jackie
is kind of one of those people that
lets you know where you stand.
And we actually put a number on it.
Now, I don't know whether that's wise or good or not.
Maybe I'm just not there yet.
And we kind of came up with a 7 on a scale of 10
in terms of the quality and the health of our marriage.
And for a lot of different reasons,
I won't go into detail.
And we said where a lot of other people
would be at a 5 or a 4, we're at a 7.
And so it was discouraging because I'm like,
jeez, first of all, I want to be like a 9 or a 10.
Second of all, on top of that, we lead a singles community.
Don't you think we should have the pressure to be a 10 out
of 10 relationship?
Because I mean, what are we going to?
If we tell our community our marriage is a 7,
what hope do they have?
I mean, it's just terrible to think that way.
Because I mean, that's just horrible.
And I'm like, no, I'm OK with that.
So that pressure started to come in like that.
And the other thing was is I also
started to think about, well, a 7 at least
is better than a 5 or a 4 or a 3.
And.
And the fact that I felt like, well, I'm really glad my wife
agrees that we're at a 7 instead of a 2, because if it was a 2,
then I'd be in real trouble.
And there would be worse things happening.
And none of those are actually good conclusions
on that rating.
So I don't really know how well that served us.
But at the same time, I'm just being
transparent and honest with you.
There's some things that we're still
working on as people and as individuals
and trying to lean into our strengths.
And there's some things that's shifting.
But God's leading us into new seasons
ourselves in what we're doing.
And we're happy for it.
So we're 18 years in and still trying to get things straight.
Just to tell you.
Any other comments?
Any other questions, concerns, feedback?
Dave, I've got a few questions here.
I've been talking on the sidelines.
You probably noticed there as well, too.
Doesn't matter how good of a resume you write
or profile you write, it doesn't get a lot of results
a lot of times either.
And I'm still wondering if it's because I'm coming along
too strong or whatever.
I'm a very strong person in the first place,
as I've said before in character.
I still struggle with that whole thing.
So I get no results when it comes to apps or anything else.
And the girls that usually get a hold of me
are the ones that are all the ones that know.
Like, you're totally out of shape.
I mean, haven't you read my profile?
I'm looking for somebody who's athletic.
And it's just like, it gets to the point
where you get discouraged when you're just
wondering, is there somebody really out there
that you're going to find?
It's been now three years since I've been looking.
And there can't be a shortage of women,
but I'm just wondering, am I coming across too strong
in the sense of my confidence?
As most of you men know, I have no problems
praying on Saturday and Sunday nights.
And I'm just wondering if I'm just way too confident,
way too forward, or whatever the word might be.
I mean, yeah, it could be because,
so the show of strength,
like, attracts all of the attention,
including the ones that you might not be interested in.
Because my goodness, if a woman could land Kenton
from Edmonton, Canada, you know,
and she's not all what Kenton wants,
but she's getting the, you know, the great package,
a healthy man, wise, secure, financially secure,
all the things, I mean, she's getting all the package,
but then what does Kenton get?
You know, not the reciprocation of, you know,
the kind of relationship you're looking for.
So that show of strength is probably doing that.
And it's possible, I don't know,
some of that show of strength might be driving
some other people away because they're like,
maybe they're a strong person and they're like,
well, we don't need two strong people in this relationship.
So it's just like, I don't know,
there might be a little bit of that too.
So I don't know, some other feedback from some other folks.
Again, the high value of strength and love
isn't a criticism, it's a way to go like,
how can I show like, how can I show a little bit more on,
like not being loving, not being like, I love people,
like I have, you know, I'm a follower of Jesus.
I'm just talking about the whole like sensitivity,
like how can I be a little bit more of that
and like balance out that strength a little bit?
That's, I'm not giving you advice on that,
I'm just telling you guys, all of you guys,
like this is how, this is like buoys in the water.
Like, well, we wanna have a high value of love
and a high value of strength.
And so that's kinda like what we're trying to come at this,
at this, you know, this whole,
how can I position myself the best,
as the best man I could be for the wife I'm about to find.
Yeah, from my perspective-
Anybody have any feedback?
From my perspective, yeah,
it's not a balance between power and love,
it's a paradox of 100% or infinite ceiling of both.
Right.
And that when we as men use our strength
in inappropriate ways,
it's because we aren't loving well.
Yeah.
And sometimes when our quote, love end quote is off base,
it's because we haven't developed our strength maybe
in ways we need to, and I'm sure there are other factors,
but I feel like God is like.
infinitely strong and infinitely loving. Yeah. And so, but Kenton, in terms of the apps,
I want to empathize, you know, that it sucks when that happens. And I feel like,
as someone who's been on the apps quite a bit, I would say that I would encourage you to
to both continue to be yourself, which I think it's hard to be willing to be yourself. But then
also to think through, like, what are the kinds of people who are attractive putting on their
profiles? Like, I don't I feel like people, people who want to be with someone who's in
shape, for example, you said you put that on your profile, I feel like that conveys weakness itself.
Because the people who really are super attractive, don't put that and, and then that's
they just weed out the people who aren't that. And like, you know, if you look at the most beautiful
women on the apps, they have like very short, simple, not thought out answers, and they're
living off their pictures. And and it's like, what do you care about in life? And they're like,
French fries, you know, and so so I think I think that I'm not saying don't be real,
because it's important to be real. And it's important to let people see your heart. But I
would encourage you, you might be driving people away by saying that you're looking for someone fit
or, like saying that you're looking for some of those things instead of creating kind of like an
atmosphere where you're kind of presenting yourself as kind of like, hey, I'm super attractive. And
then you can weed through kind of the, the many people that kind of sign up to want to have the
opportunity to communicate with you. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. But that's
something I've been trying to learn, as I've been kind of on the apps.
I hear what you're saying Tom, it's actually nice to hear from the ladies on the LYS ladies to find
out how they approach things like that as too. I think that would be such an asset to us and we
could hear from the ladies. Because you know, you know, I'm not going to stop being who I am. I
never out being a priest being being a pastor. I know who I am in Christ. And that brings such a
strength into into the relationship. And I love I mean, I can listen all day as a counselor to
these women and listen to their situations, empathize, understand, I use all the tools,
but it just doesn't seem nothing seems to work for me.
Well, that's not what you want to know right now. You're not on there to get into a counseling
relationship. I think and I think that's that brings up a really good point. Because let me
put it in this terms. I'm totally agreeing with you, Thomas. Thank you for that. Because that's
I you're helping me understand this a little bit better. You might be coming across too fatherly.
Like I'm like, I'm a father figure like I'm strength, a father, you want a father to be
strong. You think of the ideal father is being very strong, like knowing all the answers can
come to you as financial strength can provide like has it all, you know, and it might be like
you might be attracting a lot of people that want to be in relationship to you because
they're wanting that strength of a father and they're attracted as well. So you're drawing like
a lot of attention instead of the specific attention that you're looking for. So it's
almost like niching down a little bit to like, if you're finding yourself in sort of like,
I'm helpful and counseling and sort of like giving advice sort of situation. This is like,
that's not what I want at all. Because, you know, I don't want to be a father. I don't want to be
one at all. Cause no woman wants to be married to their counselor, to their advice giver.
It's just that I've used those skills. Sure. Sure. Of course. Listen to be a part of,
to empathize. I've got my life personally that I can empathize with broken hearted people.
And that's the other part. I see the ones that I am attracting are the broken people.
Yeah. I feel like the women on the apps say they want someone who can help them laugh.
Do you, do you convey a sense of fun through your profile?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm just, I kid around with them. I, I tease them.
What way, but on your profile, not on your profile.
How do you, that's a good question. Can you define that or bring it down to a little bit
better thought there? What are you trying to say? Well, I think that different women are looking
for different things, but if you're wanting to hit lots of numbers on the apps, it seems like
joking around is probably going.
going to be maybe some kind of important, you know, like,
like this joke now is kind of spread,
but I used to say like, when it said like,
when do you feel your hottest?
I would put like in the sauna, you know,
or like just, you know, something,
something like kind of like ridiculous.
You have to be witty for that, and I'm just not that way.
And I wasn't either.
I got a book from Amazon called Flirting 101.
That's good.
Send it to me, brother, send it to me.
Because, because it's hard to learn how to
help someone enjoy themselves,
because I also come from a super serious background
that is not healthy or appropriate for dating.
Like, like it's not appropriate for me to try to
be there for someone's deepest life issues
before we even got on a first date or on our first date
or three months into, you know, a relationship probably.
So, so I, I, I would say it's,
these are learnable skills, emotional intelligence.
According to, there's a book, is it, is it,
is it Travis Bradbury?
He just came out with another new book.
His four sectors of emotional intelligence
are self-awareness, self-management,
awareness of others' emotions,
and management of relationship with others.
And I think on the dating apps, I would imagine,
especially kind of like quadrants three and four
might be helpful.
And there are books specifically about how to learn
how to be fun around other people.
Yeah, write down the title and the name of the book
you got there.
I'd appreciate it.
I haven't read it in years,
but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll find the one that I got.
And, and I'm sure there are better ones by now, but.
Oh, very good.
Yeah, it could be, it could be, you might be
the problem solver man.
Like women want to be attracted to a man
who's got the confidence to be able to like,
know what, know what to do, when to do it type thing.
But then when they're bringing their like,
in relationship, when they're bringing their,
their situation to you and they just want to be heard,
they don't want the problem solving guy.
They just want to be heard in relationship
because it's emotional and they just need to,
you know, get it out sort of thing.
That's like a different era in the relationship,
but you might be actually too good on the front end
of getting to know somebody
in terms of that problem solving.
So it's like too much of a confidence,
too much of a, an advice giver.
In other words, yeah, I think that's like witty,
like play a little dumb, play a little like, you know,
like I know that's offensive because you're like,
I'm not dumb.
I'm not going to be dumb for nobody.
You know, it's just like, well,
you want to back that off a little bit.
You might catch some fish with that.
I don't know.
I like the witty thing.
I like the joke book thing.
I think it's great.
Thomas, you were perfectly designed
for answering this question tonight and I love it.
Well, and maybe it's not about dumbing it down.
Maybe it's about lightening it up.
Start it out a little bit light, a little bit funny.
On Hinge, I almost always, you can match with a comment.
Yeah, that's what I've been doing.
Once I do get one back and I got one back,
I have to say I got one.
And it was just that, it was just,
it was more listening than it was advice.
No, I don't give advice.
I've learned that one long time ago from my wife.
No, they don't want advice.
They just want to be helpful.
But when, but if you're like, oh, I see,
that lets them continue instead of responding
with something of yourself.
And it becomes listening instead of a conversation.
Yeah, no, you just empathize with them
and just say, you know, I'm sorry that's happening with you.
That's not the dance.
No, it's just-
You're gonna wind up with your back against the wall.
They just keep coming here.
That's right.
It's the, Kenton, it's the male version of being coy.
You know, like when a woman is trying to be like,
you're like, oh, you know, you know, whatever.
Putting on airs a little bit to like, you know,
be like, like less than and sort of like be shy
and whatever, like it can be alluring in the feminine.
So what is the version of that for the masculine
in terms of like not coming across too much?
There might be a little bit of exploring you could do
in that, like, how can I be a little bit more like,
you know, coy with my approach to women?
I mean, is there anything wrong-
It's kind of gonna be attracting to someone
who is gonna be like, okay, I see this guy.
He can be funny.
He's got the answers.
It's worth looking into.
All right, it's good.
Thanks, gentlemen.
Daniel, I think you are good at that.
Lightening things up as appropriate.
Oh, yeah, thanks. Yeah, I definitely try to match. I try
to match with a joke. So I have a whole I have a whole album
screenshots on my phone. I'm going to I'm thinking about
starting an Instagram account called failed pickup lines. So
yeah, we'll see. We'll see.
Hey,
Kenton, to your point, I mean, the response rate is abysmal. It
is. It's just generally hard. It is hard for men to get matches.
Um, and so what I've witnessed is men get really discouraged.
It's super easy for women to get matches, they get hundreds of
them. And so women, women get overwhelmed, and they don't know
how to sort the, the high quality men from the low
quality men. It's, it's not a perfect system for either
gender.
And this is in perspective, too, because the the the women are
constantly, not only just in last year single, but we run
into I mean, we ran into some people in Nashville, because we
were just coming out of church. And there were two ladies that
stopped us and recognize Jackie and are not part of the program
at all, but had read her books and heard about her and like,
Oh, you're Jackie Dorman, then that like that kind of stuff
happens. But so it's like in and out of the community is what
I'm trying to say. Where they're like, their main question is all
the time is like, where are all the men? And I'm like, I talked
to a set of like 20 to 30 of them every Monday night. I mean,
like, I know where some men are. But like, it's funny, because
you guys are saying this. And then an overwhelming majority of
a lot of women are like, where are all the men? Where are the
good guys? And I'm like, what the heck is going on here? You
know, I'm trying to feel like why can't this like, why can't
there be these matches? I don't I don't understand. So there's a
conundrum here. And I don't know where it kind of lies. But this
is what we're endeavoring to to figure out.
I think the church teaches men to be way too serious. True. And
non Christian men are way better at willing to just engage and
not have to go to like chapter six on the first page.
Yep. That's a truth.
I think that's true. You know, I think there's this thing. There's
been times when I've, I don't know how to describe it. It just
I've enjoyed, I felt like I could open up more or I can have
more fun with women who were less serious about their
Christianity kind of thing. And that's not what I want. I want
someone who loves God like I do and work but I don't want to
read the book of Ecclesiastes on the first date. You know what I
mean? It's like I want to I don't Yeah, anyway, I just I I
second that Thomas is
I'll tell you and I'll tell you this, and this is a really huge
stereotype. But for the female, they're trying to get the
security of a godly man. And then on the male side, what
Thomas said about the church being basically training men to
be not in they're not in their best strength. And those two
things when you have a man not in their best strength, and then
you have a woman acting out of her insecurities, because she
just wants something solid. She wants something, you know,
secure. That's going to be a terrible and you're right, we
have a whole society of just that people trying to like meet
each other on this level. So
I've been spitting my opinions out all over the place. Can I
say just one more thing, though, that I feel like Henry Henry
cloud. In his book, I think how to get a date worth keeping,
which I'd also really, really highly recommend, even though
it's old now. He says that, like, it's important for
relationships to grow kind of in four ways kind of at the same
time, like emotionally, intellectually, like physically,
and I forget the fourth one, but, but he would say that it's
very common for different kinds of people to have one of those
spike. And that for some people, it's physical, and it's
very easy for them to develop a lot of physical intimacy early
on ahead of the other kinds. And for some people, it's easier to
build way too much emotional intimacy, kind of on the front
end before there's kind of like the intellectual or the kind of
the, you know, whatever else. And so he would say, like, if
you're experiencing too much intimacy too soon in one area,
maybe dial it back so that you can help all of them kind of
grow, like together, which was really surprising to me, but I
found it surprisingly helpful. Also, like if someone is like,
really kind of diving deep to be kind of like, wow, we don't have
kind of the the foundation for that at this point, we could, if
we, you know, want
into, but we don't yet.
That's good.
I don't know if that makes sense.
That's really good.
Yeah.
Steven put it in the chat there.
Pies, physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual.
Yes, that was spiritual.
That's a real good stuff.
I love that.
Well guys, um, thanks for your input.
Thanks for your, your questions.
Thanks for your vulnerability.
Thanks for your feedback.
It's all good stuff.
Um, I love y'all and, um, we're past our time here and, uh, just want
to pray great things for you.
Bless you.
I think timing is a huge thing for a lot of you right now, especially
in that you've been journeying through this for quite some time.
And I think it's about to really hit.
I think there's just a timing thing right now.
And so I don't want to be that preacher.
Like, oh, your miracle's coming.
It's coming.
And I don't want to be that, but I'm just saying it's
timing is there definitely is a factor.
Um, with the Lord for that, for sure.
And along the journey.
So I think it's a timing issue here.
So I bless you in that, um, pray for us.
We'll be traveling a lot the next couple of months.
Um, so, um, and doing a lot of business, doing a lot of like this, this next
weekend, we actually have to go, um, see our, our twin, uh, niece and nephew
graduate from high school and we're honoring them and doing that.
Um, just traveling down to Florida, just, just to go there, to see them graduate.
And, uh, then we're taking the, the girl, Nia niece, and, uh, she's
going to go on a road trip because that's kind of like her senior, senior gifts.
So we're really taking some time and some family ways, um, to, to try to,
to try to do that, taking time out.
Do that.
And then we've got a lot of other stuff that we're doing as well.
So I appreciate your prayers, covet your prayers and your thoughts in that way.
And, um, so bless you guys pray health and wealth over all of you.
And, uh, in Jesus name, amen.
See y'all later.
Thank you.