Welcome, everybody, to December 2022, the last Protection Portal session for the year.
So we're going to go out with a bang. This has been an incredible year for a lot of us.
There's been a lot of transformation going on. I've been kind of looking back at notes
on different questions from different people and looking where you were a year ago and
where you are now. And I gotta say, I'm impressed with you guys, because, you know, when I started
this out, it was really intended to give guidance along the way. And I didn't know people were
going to be well, I guess we kind of felt it was going to happen. But people really
accelerated very fast. And a lot of people also, you might be thinking, well, I don't
feel like I move really fast. But there's a lot of clarity that a lot of people receive
during the year as well. And so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some major shifting
that's happened. And now you guys should be positioned in the right place to move forward.
Now, a lot of people took the last offer. I think it was like 17 people took the last
offer, which is I mean, it was it was a good idea. And we're kind of in the mix of going
through the offers one by one. And what I'm finding, I want to give you kind of a one
minute overview of what I'm finding is happening. Because it's while you're coming in, for those
of you who are who are doing the offer, and we're going to have that session, where you're
coming in intending to focused on like just business, I'm finding that more is happening.
What I mean by that is people are getting clarity on like, names of corporations are
like popping up in the middle of the meetings. I mean, we just had a session yesterday, where
a company had been using a certain name found out that there was an issue a pretty major
issue. Who is this? I don't know who that was. They disappeared. Somebody tried to log
in under a strange name that I've never seen before. So I don't know what that was about.
Ray, I'm going to give you a co host ability. Okay, so that you can watch for people logging
in. Yeah, so I can focus. And so they've been using a certain name for a few years.
And just out of a whim, I said, you know, let me do a quick search for you. Now, did a search found
out another company have been using the same name for many years prior had a federal registration
wasn't good. And then we spend some time breaking down what the company is all about. So I'm going
to take one minute and kind of show you how you come up with a name for a company, or a product
or service. Okay, let me show you like what was revealed to me during the process. This was not
intended at all. That's this was not the focus of the meeting. It just happened. And then I thought,
wow, that makes a lot of sense, Lord. So just kind of sharing that with all of you. So for any of you
that are kind of stuck, going, I can't come up with a new name for a product or service. How many
people are doing that, like right now trying to come up with a name. Alright, so there's some of
you that are in that situation. It's and just just to comfort you. This is probably the most difficult
area of IP. Okay, like, if you put a number of engineers like myself, a bunch of geeks in a room,
we'll come up with an invention. Right? It's just, I don't know what happens. Like, you know,
so for some reason, we just come up with inventions, it just happens.
But there it is, again, I don't know who Google is. I don't know, right? Can you check and see
if I'm looking? Alright, thanks. So, you know, invention is not a problem. But there's only so
many letters in the alphabet. There's only so many words in the in the in the English language.
Right. And even if you come up with a foreign word, some of you may not know this,
even if you come up with a foreign word, that means the English word. Well,
when the United States Patent and Trademark Office looks it up, what they do is they look
for the English equivalent. So you may be thinking to yourself, well, I believe that this is,
you know, that this is clear, because it's the, it's the Spanish word for such and such. Well,
in the US, what they're going to do is they're going to look up that same word.
Ray, do you know who that is? g.el? I don't, I was actually going to message them and ask them
their name to verify that they're a portal member. But because the only way to check out who they are
is to admit them. So yeah, because I don't recognize the name. So if you don't get a
response within a minute, actually, you should normally be able to message people and you're
waiting.
room if you're holding a waiting room? Because I've had to do
that. Oh, well, just so you know, sorry, I don't have a
waiting room, then you can't do that. It's Angelica. Okay,
perfect. Nobody knows who GEL is. Thank you, Angelica. Thank
you. All right. We thought you were NASA or like, you know,
some kind of government facility trying to spy, you know, just
want to make sure, you know, so welcome. All right. So so these
are the things that I look at. All right. This is what was
revealed. The first one is to take the aspects of who you are
and what your company is trying to do, and write them down.
Alright, but only use three words for each characteristic. I
don't know why three don't ask me I have no idea. But this is
what was being revealed was like take so let's say that you're
working with children and you're training the children in let's
say, education on I can't say what we're talking about, right?
So let's say we're teaching on education on volcanoes, right?
And so you're just trying to train them right with without
hands on experience, hopefully. So let's say that's, that's what
you're doing. That would be a different religion. So um, so
this is what you would do. So you would say, so let's say,
like visual, let's say, viewing, visual beauty or something like
that, like just find three words that define what your
business is doing, or what your service is doing, what your
product is doing, okay? There's a difference between a product, a
service, and a good. So I would actually take it one step
further, I would determine is this name for your company? Is
it for your service? Or is it for your good? That's number
one. So step number one, Ray, write these down too, because I
want to put this on a form, please, that I could post in the
Facebook group. So if anybody misses anything, we can share
it. So number one is determined, is this for my company in
general? Is it for a good or is it for a service? That's number
one. Now I know what it's for. So now I go to step number two,
number two is defining the characteristics of this
corporation or this good or this service. All right, and use
three words, and it can be multiple ones of them, right? So
it can be like exposure to volcanoes or meeting with such
and such, whatever it is, just three words, three words, three
words, three words. Now, I think, I'm not sure, but I think
maybe part of the reason why three words is being used is
because you're going to have to think as you're trying to take
that that characteristic and change that long characteristic
description of like a sentence into three words. So you're
going to be in the process, this is just coming to me now, you're
going to be in the process of redefining what an entire
sentence means into three words. So you're already going to be
putting yourself in the mode of coming up with names, but you're
not going to come up with a single word, you're going to be
taking that, that characteristic, and you're going
to be turning it into three words. So three words, three
words, three words. All right. So you might be let's say it's a
product that's allowing people to sleep better. Right? So you
might you might write down natural remedy, inexpensive, as
a second characteristic, third one might be appealing color,
packaging with appealing color or packaging appealing color,
something like that. So you're writing down the characteristics
one after the other, and then you're going to sit with that
and look at that. And you're praying over that. Because now
what you've done is you've blocked it out into the
characteristics. And now that you see the characteristics,
it's almost like it's taking shape. It's like it's gone from
this elongated description, you know, paragraph, paragraph,
paragraph, which some of you haven't even done yet. Some of
you have like a product, but you haven't even written down the
characteristics of the product. You just kind of saying, well,
I've got a product. And the product does it helps people
sleep, I need a name, you're too far away from it. Like now, can
God give you a dream? Absolutely. That's happened to
me before all of a sudden, boom, andrelic encounter dreams
downloaded, boom, we're ready to go. All right, if you've tried
that path, and you haven't gotten anywhere yet, I suggest
you go down this path. Number one, company, product or
service. Number two, take an elongated description, turn them
into three word sent three word phrases. Now number three,
you're going to sit on that and you're going to look at that
those are the characteristics of what you're bringing forward.
That's a breakdown of exactly what you're bringing forward. So
now you're in the realm of of delivery to to third parties
already. Okay, it's no longer like
I need a name for a product to let me sleep. You've gotten way closer in. Now what you're
going to do as you're praying, you're looking over those characteristics, words are going to
come to you that define those groups of characteristics. And that is going to be
where you come up with your name. So it's no longer like starting out with, I need a product
I have a product that helps people sleep. How about sleep more? Well, that's kind of
descriptive, right? So for trademarks, you can't get a federal registration for something that's
merely descriptive. We've talked about that. So some of the meetings that I've had,
people are proposing trademarks that are merely descriptive. Some people are already using
trademarks for two or three years that are descriptive. And they want to be able to use
those names exclusively. And guess what happens on the search? I go online, I start searching,
and I find like 10, 15 other companies using the exact same name. All right. Why? Because
it's descriptive. If it's descriptive, you can't use it. You can't use it. You can't hold on to
that name. Okay. So with that, does that help that top level breakdown so far? Is anything
confusing about that? Okay. All right. That is, what's that going to do is going to take you out
from looking out at the universe and going, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do to bring it in.
You're going to be highlighting the characteristics. And what you're going to find also,
if you have a very good closeness with the Lord, is that you're going to see the characteristics
that you're writing down are, they're aligned with what he's trying to do with your service
or your product or your good. All right. That's what's going to happen is all of a sudden,
you're going to kind of see this stuff. I don't mean to get just too spiritual here for some,
you're probably going, why are we so spiritual in this? It's like, there's any product or service
or good that you're, or a company that you're bringing forward, there's a message behind it.
You did it for a reason. I mean, do you do it to make money? Yeah, absolutely. We do things to
make money, but there's typically a message. There's typically something that's coming forward.
And here's the thing, what most people don't realize, and I've been doing this a long time,
I've been selling services for a long time, guys. And just because of the grace of God, I've been
in the top one or two as client originators in different firms. And it's not me, I'm pretty
sure it's God. I know it's God, but because it's not possible. I mean, to be in a group of 60
something lawyers and be number one continuously, it's not possible. So, but one thing that I find
is if you can determine what are the giftings that you have and how those giftings relate to
the consumer, then you can come out with a really good package, like a really good description in a
name. And then what will happen is that the name will provide a message to the public and it'll
make them engaged. Now, let me tell you an exception to this rule. If you come up with your own name,
all right? So, I created a name a while ago that nobody ever heard of, it's called Fashir.
Nobody has a clue what it means. No, like zero clue, right? That's a made up name.
So, when you're coming up with made up names, just so you know,
I didn't know I was going to go here, but I'm going to take one minute because some of you
must be doing this right now, trying to create your own names, because I did not intend to
talk about this. So, if you're trying to create a name, meaning using
vowels and consonants to create a word that nobody has ever used before, okay?
Number one, congratulations, you've chosen the more difficult path. Congratulations.
But it can be a very good thing and let me tell you why. If you create your own original name,
nobody else is going to have it. That's amazing. But number two, just remember is now you have to
build a following, all right? So, it may be more difficult in the beginning. If you create your own
name, it may be more difficult for you to start a following. Don't be discouraged, all right? Don't
be discouraged. Like if you come up with the name Fashir and you're like, oh, this is great. I'm
going to call all of my jackets for all my windbreakers and I'll call it Fashir, right?
And so, you're like, oh, what? Like,
Nobody ever heard of that name before.
And so don't be surprised, number one,
just remember it's not descriptive, perfect.
That means I passed every single test.
It's not gonna infringe on anything
because I created it from scratch.
I don't have to worry about that.
It's not, other people aren't gonna infringe upon it yet
because I created it from scratch.
It's not descriptive because I created it from scratch.
So these are the beauties of having an original name.
The tricky part of having an original name
is now you've got to build a following.
So don't be surprised that when you bring a product out,
like these are windbreakers called Fashir,
and all of a sudden people are going, what's that?
Like, don't be surprised.
It just means you're gonna spend a little more time
on the marketing side, the building of the brand.
And this is when it becomes really important
when you have your first customers
to get testimonies immediately.
You gotta jump in the testimonies immediately.
You get your pictures of the person with the logo
or with the trademark on the jersey or whatever it is,
or the shirt, or the cup, or the mug, or whatever,
immediately, and you're starting to push it
and push it and push it, and you're pushing the name, right?
And then you get testimonies and you push the name,
you push the name.
Because you have to do more in the area of branding
when you have an original name
than if you're using names that kind of are,
suggestive.
Remember, the most powerful trademarks that are out there
are called suggestive trademarks.
With that, the difference between a suggestive,
and Jennifer, I'll get to you in a second.
The difference between a suggestive trademark
and a descriptive trademark is that a descriptive trademark
is you need those words to describe the good of services.
So it's a red door, and I try to own the name Red Door.
That's descriptive of the door.
It can't do that, right?
But what's another, I'm trying to think of a-
I think maybe that's my question.
I was thinking even like Tylenol P, Tylenol PM.
Let me continue the thought.
I don't want to lose the train of thought, hold on.
I'm trying to think of another way to suggest the color red
without using the word blood,
because bloody door is probably a bad trademark, right?
So we're not going there.
So how about like, I don't know, Rose Door,
or like Sunset Door,
or something that makes you think of the color
without saying the color, right?
Well, rouge is the color itself.
So that's not, so the way,
the reason why suggestive trademarks are the best
is because they make you think of a characteristic
that you want, or that the object has
without saying the word itself.
That's what a suggestive thing is, okay?
That's why suggestive trademarks are the absolute best,
but descriptive is saying it's a red door,
or it's a rouge door, or it's a maroon door.
Jennifer, go ahead, go ahead.
Yeah, you might've just answered this.
I was just thinking about like Tylenol PM,
or whatever it is, Advil PM, right?
Like when you were saying about sleep more,
like PM implies this is for nighttime,
it's not the morning, or at least it's afternoon.
And I guess that was my question.
Even though PM is a,
like it's how we use to tell time,
can they use that?
Or like using words that are common words,
like you can't trademark PM.
Yeah, so let me answer your question.
So that's a great question.
So is PM a description of the product itself?
That's the way it would come down to, right?
So technically it's not,
you're not describing the product by saying PM.
And Tylenol PM is not something
that you can only take in the afternoon.
You can take it in the morning.
You can take it whenever you want.
So the product itself,
if you put that product in your mouth,
it doesn't go, eh, because it's 8 a.m.
Like it doesn't, and it doesn't like not work at 8 a.m.
It works literally at any time.
So therefore, Tylenol PM is a perfect name
because it suggests, it's suggestive of sleeping, right?
Because PM is when you go to bed late or like,
but it's not really descriptive of the product
because you might want to sleep, you know,
any time of the day or night.
It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be PM.
Miguel, go ahead.
Hey, brother.
I put it in the chat and Ray said to ask the question,
but yeah, let me go back.
So what I asked you is like,
I've seen a lot of companies use, say sleep better,
and then they combine the words like sleep better
in one word.
I'm just asking like, when you combine words,
does it bypass the whole descriptive?
You know, great question.
And we ran into this yesterday.
That's your question is exactly what happened yesterday.
And the answer is no.
So you can't take something that's descriptive
and try to get a federal registration
for that descriptive term just because you add one word.
But let me explain to you how.
I'm going to give you a qualifier on that, all right?
So let's say the name is like Microsoft Great Software,
right?
Now, if they tried to file for Microsoft Great Software,
what would happen is they would get a rejection.
And in the rejection, the United States Patent and Trademark
Office would say, we're going to give you
a registration for Microsoft Great Software,
but you don't own the words Great Software.
That's the way it would play out.
So what they essentially would be doing
is they would get a trademark for Microsoft Great Software.
And if anybody used the terms Great Software,
they could never stop them.
So you could actually get a federal registration
using descriptive words, but there
has to be something that is not descriptive in that trademark.
So let's say like Nike, run fast, or Nike, less pain.
So foot pain gone, something like that.
That's descriptive.
Foot pain gone is descriptive of what the sneakers do.
So therefore, you can't own foot pain gone,
but you can get a registration for the slogan Nike foot pain
gone because the word Nike is unique, and you can own that.
But what's going to happen is the United States Patent
and Trademark Office is going to give you a rejection first.
And in the rejection, they're going
to say you have to file a disclaimer to the words foot
pain gone because you can't own the words foot pain gone.
Now, what does that mean for all of you?
That means that you may have hurt yourself
because if there are five words in your slogan,
and only one of those five words you can own, what that means
is that you just tried to get, you just
obtained a federal registration for five words of which
one word can be owned.
So if anybody uses the other four words,
you can't do anything.
And the chances of you stopping somebody
from using one of the five words
is very low because your trademark is not
the one word alone.
So let's imagine for a moment as an example.
This is really helpful, deep stuff.
So I'm just going to walk into this.
Let's say Microsoft got a federal registration
for Microsoft make computers better, right?
Or let's say that's what they got, make computers better.
Or software for computers.
Microsoft software for computers.
That's going to get rejected immediately.
They're going to have to file a disclaimer,
says that they do not own software for computers, right?
Now, that means that their federal registration is
actually for Microsoft software for computers.
So if somebody else uses the name Microsoft alone,
Microsoft is going to have a hard time enforcing
their trademark, which is Microsoft software
for computers, because the other person is only
using the name Microsoft.
They're not using software for computers.
So you may be thinking to yourself,
well, maybe I can add more words to add something
descriptive to my distinctive term
for my products or services.
Maybe I'll do that.
I wouldn't do that.
The reason why is because what you can do
is you can end up using words that you don't own
in your slogan, and then if somebody
uses the one word you do care about,
they may not infringe because it's only one of five words.
Do you guys follow me on that?
It's pretty deep what I just walked you into,
but that's a real-life situation.
So people, what they do is they have the name Microsoft.
Then they go, love the name, but I
want to make sure people understand
what this is all about.
So Microsoft, making computers run better.
That's the trademark.
So now they get their federal registration.
They have to file the disclaimer on making computers run better.
Now somebody, Bonnie is really clever.
She sees it, and she goes, I like the name Microsoft.
I'm going to use that on my app.
Now Microsoft tries to sue her, and she says,
I'm not using your five words.
I'm using one word.
You don't own that one word.
Do you see what I mean?
So now it's a litigation situation
because Microsoft tried to add an impression that
was descriptive to an actual trademark.
It would have been better if they just filed for Microsoft
and did it for software.
Then if somebody uses Microsoft with anything.
thing, they can stop them. Way more powerful. Trademarks are
more powerful when they're shorter. The longer you make a
trademark, the harder it is to enforce. If you've got like, you
know, you look at Nike, just do it. Right? Let's say somebody
owns, just doing. That's, you know, somebody might say, well,
there's, there may be a likelihood of confusion, just do
it just doing, you know, it's they're both three syllables,
both have just and doing it. One has it one is ing. So there's a
likelihood of confusion argument that'll be made. But if, if the
name's Nike, you type Nike, somebody else's use Nike, that's
clearly infringement done. You see the difference? It's so much
more clear. It's good. It's absolute. So just be careful. I
would do like what Jennifer was saying go with like suggestive
don't go with descriptive. If you go descriptive, it's gonna
get rejected, it's gonna be hard to get out, you're gonna waste
money, you're gonna waste time. And some of the ones that some
of the meetings I've been having in this audit, people are using
descriptive trademarks. And we've had to like, like one of
the meetings that we just had, they're completely redoing their
entire line. Now that means website, products, services,
like everything, right, they have a software package, they're
redoing that as well. Now, just to take one minute here, you
don't have to change, you could use something descriptive, just
realize you're not going to be able to stop others. That's all.
So just just keep that in mind that that's the thing for you
think about. If you want to use something descriptive, more power
to you, but you're gonna have to be the one company that's using
that descriptive phrase. And everybody can think of only you
when that term when that term is used. And maybe you can do that.
Like maybe, you know, maybe you say the fast software company,
you know, like, let's say that your company creates software,
and the software that you create, makes computers work
faster, using the same tools that they already have, there's
the same ASICs, the same, you know, the same printed circuit
board, the same heat sinks, the same fans, everything. But your
software makes the computer work faster, for some reason, you
came up with some creative, logical loops that are making
the computer systems work faster. So you say, the fast
software company, or like the, yeah, the faster computer
software, or whatever it is. And, you know, everybody sees
this as well, that's really descriptive, but nobody's really
use those words, like that, even though it is descriptive. So you
start hitting the market, and you're flooding the market. And
you're out there with a fast software company with a fast
software company with a fast software company. And everybody
is going, but hold it, that's not fair. Like Miguel's using a
name that's descriptive, his software makes it faster. The
USPTO is like, no, we're not going to give them the federal
registration. But everybody in the market knows Miguel's
company now as the fast software company. So you may
actually have a situation and I have clients who have done this
brilliantly, have used a descriptive term and flooded
the market, where everybody in a market now thinks of them only.
Even though it's descriptive, it blows the mind, it's actually an
incredibly brilliant marketing strategy. It's very hard to
execute. Like if you're starting out, and you've never
done this before, I would, I would not suggest this. Because
it's very difficult. But it's a brilliant marketing strategy.
Now, all of a sudden, everybody's like, Oh, man, you
know, I need software, dude, you need to talk to the fast
software company. They're like, what? Well, which company is
that? No, that's the name of it, the fast software company. No
way. Yeah, that's the actual name, they go by that name. And
they use a TM, even though they can't get a federal
registration, they're still using a TM. It's like you're
placing a public on notice that you're using your descriptive
term in a trademark fashion. It's like, it's like trademark
ninjutsu. Like it's crazy. And it, it works. But it's, it's
brilliant. But it's very difficult to execute. You've
got to have a, an incredible marketing team, a brilliant
lawyer, and like, you've got to have a solid package, because
when it works, it's a billion dollar brand. But it's hard to
execute. So anyways, Miguel, that I just want to give you
that.
So, so Peter, great response. And, and head on. In the Red
Door example, if you use Red Door manufacturing, you
manufacture Red Doors, but you join the words Red Door
together, does that make a difference if there's no space
in between? So Red Door? Does that? Okay,
great question. Doesn't matter.
Like, you see it all the time, like
like people joining words you know on on like sleep better in one word i always wondered is that
can you trademark yeah it's a great it's a great question but it doesn't matter because
i mean think of just do it right and somebody gets rid of the spaces guarantee you nike is
going to sue you like they're like spaces are no spaces now arguably it looks a little different
but it's still the same words you know the lack of a space is not enough it's not enough for
they still see it as scripted if you find three words combined they still see it like you're
trying to do the same yeah because they'll they'll look the uspto is just going to look
at that and say yes it's the same thing it's not a new word it's the same thing just remove the
spaces great thank you i mean i've seen people try to do that like take multiple words turn it
into one word you know like um and what i've actually seen which is a little a little different
is that they'll take parts of words and combine them right so instead of like the fast software
company right they'll do t a a or they'll be like th aft swco you know and that's the new word
and yeah at that point that's good right well well and that that's the question is that
is that when you file it the uspto examiner is now going to look at that and say
is that really close to the words that are descriptive right and so it just becomes it
becomes a measurement or a discussion point with the examiner as to how close is that to the actual
words or not like we're we're going really deep right now into how to define a product name
a service a company what's going to get through the system what's not how do you create a new name
how do you not like this is this is pretty deep but these are ways that people typically come up
with a new name for a product or a service they'll do what you said miguel they'll take
they'll take characteristics of words this is another way i'll give you one more then i'll
answer jennifer's question so um another thing that they'll do is they'll take characteristics
of the product or the service and they'll and they'll like after they write those out they'll
take they'll take like parts of those characteristic like the characteristical words
and they'll create a word right so um that's what they'll do they take a piece of this word piece
of that word piece of that word they'll mix it together and that's your new new word and then
when somebody says well how'd you come up with a name oh my inspiration was such and such but here's
the thing when you get an office action from the examiner at the united states patent trademark
office and they ask you how did you get that word it's it's just not a good idea to say well i just
took the letters from the words that are descriptive and i put them together and came up
with this it's it that can be a an argument that hurts you more than helps you so i in those cases
um i mean i realize everybody here's honest so you're in kind of a bad place if you're in that
situation so the hope is that you actually don't call the examiner instead you do a response you
know to an office action and you ignore that point to try to get your system because because it's
just going to be like i need to be honest oh i don't know what to do so don't answer the call
so there you go so uh jennifer good so kind of along those lines then same thing with an acronym
so uh make software faster m s f like and you're trying to put like you make this groovy little
logo msf and the words underneath it you're still going to be in the same you're still going to be
in the same situation because you're trying to use other words so like even the acronym doesn't get
you out of it yeah it's a that is a brilliant question um to use the terminology of my my
clients from the united kingdom uh that's a brilliant question um uh and it's just spot on
is that one of the questions that is um i think you were actually in the challenge where i showed
this i'm not sure jennifer because it was a while ago but i'm gonna see if i can find it there's a
website that's that's really really good it lists all the acronyms for anything you could ever think
of right there's a bunch of sites that actually have acronyms but there's this one site that has
got everything like it's it's probably the best i've ever seen i'm gonna see if i can find that
and post it right can you just dm me on that um so but here's the thing um i think this is going
to help some of you i filed for a a trademark on behalf of a client they did what you said jennifer
they they took it
acronym right but the acronym was for words that did not exist right so they created a new term
and with the creation of the new of the new term they used the acronym for that new term and so we
filed for the acronym for the unique term right now that should be two steps away from a rejection
but this is what happened we got a rejection right major corporation and the examiner says
that this acronym is stands for something that has existed for a long time and you can't own it
and i said that's baloney like our client created it so what the examiner did was the examiner
cited that website the acronym website okay this is kind of hilarious and i had to explain this to
the examiner and prove it to the examiner for them to remove the rejection it was it was a it was
pretty it was a pretty detailed argument but here's what happened the examiner searched the
site for the acronym found the acronym found the words and rightfully so grabbed the that print
out and rejected the acronym and said this is already exists well here's the thing that he
didn't know is that that website actually what it does is it has a spider that searches the internet
for every acronym that ever existed and populates itself with every acronym and the definition of
that acronym the words that go for it right so what actually happened was our client had been using
that term for over a year so their spider actually fought found our client's use on the internet
and then created in its own database the acronym with the name that our client was already using
and so the the uspto rejected us based on our own usage but didn't know it was our own usage
because the database doesn't tell you what the source was and so now i'm telling the examiner
no that's us and the examiner's saying no it's not it's in this website and i said you don't
understand how these websites work so i had to explain what a spider was i explained i mean
examiner's thinking a spider like this guy is using nature and computer terminology it doesn't
make any sense i had to explain to them how google works and search engines and others
and i had to write a letter to the president of the organization that creates the the acronym
website to get him to actually send me a metadata document showing where they actually got the the
first uses of the acronym from the internet and when i got that it actually cites to my client's
website duh and so it shows you the date that it was acquired from the internet and it was our
website and so after i finally proved all that we won the case and the client was very happy but
the point is that the acronym website you can actually use that site to see every acronym that
exists and see whether or not the one that you came up with is one that already exists because
those acronyms are not going to be on the uspto website so this site might actually help you if
you're trying to come up with some unique acronyms all right any other just related that sorry just
a quick question and maybe reference back to something you've talked about before if i can
just remember where to find it but when you were talking about like nike just do it you said
something in a prior call about like you want to file for the longer version of something versus
the shorter version of something because otherwise but i might be connecting yeah that's not connecting
the dots right is that a different issue not right yeah so okay there's nike then there's just do it
so what i said is you file for nike and you file for just do it you file for both of them separately
if you file for them both at the same time then if somebody uses nike alone that's a problem
somebody uses just do it alone that's a problem if you're going to use just do it the slogan
alone then i would file for the alone even if you're using the slogan with something else
sometimes because you want to make sure that if somebody uses the one word they infringe if
somebody uses a slogan they infringe right so there's nike that's one trademark there's just do
it that's another trademark right but nike also you'll see nike just do it but they didn't file
for nike just do it they filed for them separately because sometimes they use just do it alone
sometimes they use nike alone if you file for nike just do it as one that and you don't
and somebody uses just nike alone you're gonna have problems enforcing it so what you need to
do is everybody here needs to think to themselves how am i using a trademark am i using it all
together or am i using one word separately sometimes from the slogan if you're using one
word separately alone sometimes from the slogan then you technically
should be falling for that one word alone and the slogan alone. Otherwise, you're going to have
troubles with enforcement. Does anybody else have a question on anything we've covered so far before
we go forward? Because I want to get to TJ's question next. All right, TJ, go ahead.
Well, the question that I had is that when we did the VIP session back in July.
Oh, you just needed the video? You don't have a question?
No, the way my mind works is I got to pause it, do this.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, no problem.
I need that resource.
You got it, no problem. April, go ahead.
Thanks. We had a question about using a logo if you're trying to pitch to somebody. So let's say
you're doing a proposal for another company. Could you put their logo on the cover of that?
Or if you were developing a product that you were going to try to sell, hey, we could make these
for you with your logo. Can you show them that example or is that infringement?
Good question, good question. All right. You're touching a very sensitive area because there
are some people that will absolutely love the fact that you're giving them a proposal that
includes their name and their logo so they can see how it's going to look. They will absolutely
love that. There are other people that will want to sue you, okay? Literally, it's like
they're different extremes. I can tell you like for my clients, some of my clients have some very
famous logos, right? And so what I'll do on when I'm doing meetings for them is I ask them
beforehand because I just want to be careful. I don't want to insult a client that sent me like
a ton of money. I don't want to do that. And so what I do instead is for some reason,
all of a sudden, everybody's calling. So what I do instead is I ask their permission. But then
what if you don't have a relationship with them and you want to build a relationship? So you want
something that looks good, right? Oh, this is not legal advice. All right. Here's our first one of the day.
Sometimes, sometimes you got to make an assessment as a business. You have to think to yourself.
Hold on. I'm going to stop the recording. Sorry for any of you guys that were not here live.
I can't have this part recorded. I'll turn on the recording right after this,
but I can't have this part recorded. Okay. Yeah, there was an intermission there for a reason
and we are now picking up again. Okay. So Jodi just asked a really good question. Well,
what if you have a funnel? And this is why I'm actually going to be running a challenge in a few
months on funnels. It's going to be the IP associated with funnels. It's going to be
exclusively on that. It's going to be a one-day mastermind. It's going to be a powerhouse.
Every IP issue that you ever run into on a funnel from copyright issues, trademark issues,
what logos can you use, can't you use, trademark slogans, everything. We're going to put one of
those together. I'm going to let Pedro know about it to see if he wants to actually let Russell know.
But I think it's going to be something that's badly needed. I actually had somebody who
just added somebody in. I had somebody a few months ago who reached out. Actually, he did a
testimony for me, which was wonderful. Bruce and Lindsay, Van Zyl, love them. Brilliant people,
amazing people. I actually use their software. If you're in tribal social, it's their software
platform. So they're the ones that provide that backend ability. They did the TikTok video.
I don't know if you remember the TikTok challenge they did, how to get a thousand follows. Great,
great challenge that they did. A lot of people signed up. I actually watched it. It was really
good. But when they first did their funnel, they had the TikTok logo on it. They had the TikTok
trademark on it. They used the colors from TikTok. It was all over it on the funnel.
And they posted it in the mastermind and said, hey, guys, take a look at this. Tell us what you
think. It's one of the perks you get in being Pedro's mastermind. You get to get feedback from
some people that have real life experience. So I saw it. I immediately, capital letters,
said stop. Don't you dare.
Publish this they were publishing this the next day. I said stop exclamation point. Don't you dare publish this call me now
And they did and I walked them through removing all the trademarks
The logos the trademarks of tick-tock right now. You can use the name in a descriptive manner
Right. There's a difference between using a name in a descriptive manner and using something as a trademark
Well and the funnel originally the funnel originally actually had like, you know, tick-tock the logo right on top and
Got rid of that right and once I explained some of the trademark stuff to them, they're like, oh that makes sense
Yes, I get it. And then they modify because they're really smart people then they modified everything
We went through every single line of the entire funnel one by one, you know and over a half hour. We cleaned up the entire
The entire funnel so
There are ways to use
What somebody the name of a software platform or like, you know?
This is a trade or this is this is training for use of Microsoft Office
And so you would say like, you know, this is a this is a video training people on how to use Microsoft Office
Period, you know that that's a descriptive manner
Descriptive manner
Right and what you can even do on the bottom is you can actually say
Microsoft is a federally registered trademark of you know, blah blah blah blah blah, you know
And there's no affiliation between our company and Microsoft like you can do that in the disclaimers
But do not think and please
Everybody listen, okay
Do not think that you're adding a disclaimer
When you're using somebody else's federal registration is going to walk you out of a lawsuit that is not gonna happen
Don't think to yourself. Well, I'm gonna use Nike on my funnel
I'm gonna use the name Nike. I'm gonna use the Nike swoosh on it and on the bottom of my funnel
It's gonna say, you know, the Nike swoosh and the name Nike are are not affiliated with our company
They are federally registered trademarks of Nike blah blah blah organization. No, no
That does not work. You will still get in trouble. Don't do that
But it's very different if you're saying if you're saying, you know, our shoe company sells different brands like Nike Adidas
You know blah blah blah. That's just describing what you're doing
And then if you want to if you want to do the old, you know, the old
What is it called belt and suspenders belt and suspenders deal if you want to do that
you can actually
You know add at the bottom a disclaimer that says
The trademarks Nike Adidas, you know Reebok and our federally registered trademarks of such-and-such
You know our our company has no affiliation with these companies, but instead we sell their shoe lines
And so you can make that clear
But again, don't believe that a disclaimer is going to get rid of trademark infringement. It does not
It does not and I'm saying this over and over because I've had a lot of situations where people get in trouble and they reach
Out and they say but I said the material I copied came from this book
But I said that the trademark is a federally registered trademark of another person. That's great
I mean, so basically what you've done is you acknowledge that you committed willful infringement. That's wonderful
That's great. You made the case easier for a litigator. Well done
Like like literally if I were litigating against that person I could say well, your honor is exhibit a
Here's the bottom of their website that where they acknowledge that this trademark belongs to my client
You know and then in a deposition I said, did you?
Did you actually know that this was a federally registered trademark on such-and-such? No, I didn't know
Well, did you authorize the creation of the website? Yes. Did you review the website? Yes
Did you see a disclaimer on the website? Yes. Can you read the disclaimer to the jury? Yes, blah blah blah blah blah
So you as the CEO of a company?
Isn't part of your position to make sure that the company is being run well and to overview these things
Yes, so it's your responsibility. So blah blah blah. Yes
So, did you know that this was a federally registered trademark? Yes
Got it. Thank you very much
Case closed. We just won
So just just be careful. All right use using descriptive sentences. Don't use as trademarks. They're different
Okay, I know I hammered that hard, but I just don't want to see anybody in our group ever sued
It's not a fun experience. Bonnie. Yes
So it was a very
So
If on your website you want to put the logos of
Companies that you worked for you can't do that, correct? No
Unless you get their permission
There's one company that I have done work for,
and they have very, very, very strict guidelines.
Oh, yes.
As long as you do their way, then you get the permission
because you're doing it the way they ask.
Is that correct?
Absolutely.
Yeah, so what you want to do is,
if any of you are seeking authorization
to use somebody else's trademark,
this is what you want to do.
Number one.
All right, actually, let me ask you.
Somebody say out loud, what's number one?
That's the first thing you should do.
Unmute yourself.
Say what you should do.
Do people have the ability to unmute themselves?
Yeah.
Okay, all right, number one.
Do a trademark search?
Yeah, that, no, no.
That's assumed already, though.
Somebody else's trademark, right?
Oh, yeah, okay.
So number one, get it in writing.
Oh, good.
You need the permission in writing.
I don't care if this is your friend.
Look, I love Miguel,
but Miguel has an incredible billion-dollar corporation,
and Miguel says, Pete, you can use our logo.
I'm like, awesome, that's great.
Miguel, put it in writing.
And Miguel's like, but bro, we're best friends.
We hang out, we go to dinner, we enjoy it.
We went to Vegas, we do this, we do that.
I'm like, Miguel, I love you.
You're my best friend, you're awesome.
Put it in writing.
And he's like, but how should I feel about this?
I was like, all right, Miguel.
Tomorrow, you may decide to retire from your company.
Yes, I need to lock your company
into what you actually said.
Well, I'm not thinking of retiring, dude.
Okay, that's great, put it in writing.
Literally, that's my answer,
because you just don't want it to be in a situation
where later you've got to prove
that you have permission in a court of law.
And I can tell you, it's horrible.
I've seen this play out in court.
I've seen this played out outside of court
where people give permission,
then all of a sudden something happens,
and either they say, A, I didn't give permission,
or B, they don't remember, or C, they sold the company.
And so now they're on their own island, Miguel Island, right?
And so he's like with his family,
enjoying the helicopter, enjoying life.
And we're trying to reach them,
but they don't have telecommunications on their island,
so I'm in court, right?
Whatever it is, get it in writing, okay?
That's the first thing you do.
So Bonnie, in your situation, your former employer,
what you want to do is,
if they have certain criteria, great.
Then either get permission from them in writing,
or if they already say you can use it,
just use these terms, print it, print it out.
Put that out and put it in your business folder.
It should be under a folder, it's called agreements.
That's good.
Agreements and licenses.
You save that form in that folder
so that you don't end up in a situation
where later you're trying to find this stuff.
I can't tell you how quickly
people delete things from their websites.
And all of a sudden, the policy that you followed
is gone later when you're in trouble,
and you're like, but it was on the website.
And they say, it's not on the website.
So now you might be able to use something
that I've explained to you, like the Wayback Machine,
but you don't want to be in that situation.
If you're following permission
based on a policy or an agreement online,
print out the agreement, save it in your old folder
so that you have that.
Now, what you don't do is,
don't turn it into a Word document and save it.
That does not work in a court of law.
All right?
You can either do a,
what I would do is like a screen print.
So it shows like the URL there, and it shows the text.
But even separate, if you guys save it as a PDF,
but you want to save the metadata for the PDF,
I may be getting too technical for you in litigation.
But in any case, the best way to do it is screen prints
because it's showing the date on there.
It's showing the URL, it's showing everything there.
Now you're saving that, right?
And you save that into a file
that's now in agreements and licenses.
Even though licenses are agreements,
people tend to forget that.
So I would call the folder agreements and licenses
just so you don't forget.
So for, before going to talk to a company in particular,
what is the language that we use to say,
like, who do we contact to get that information from?
Good question.
Man, you guys came ready.
I mean, you guys really came.
This is deep.
Like, this is real practical application.
Like, you're in business doing things.
So, all right.
So the way that I would do this,
let me explain to you how most corporations
are structured, all right?
Most corporations, the phone number that they give you is.
Somebody has to deal with marketing.
Marketing knows nothing about the stuff we're talking about.
So the people you actually want to get in touch with
are corporate.
You want to get to the corporate division.
And if you're dealing with the corporate division,
there are different divisions within corporate
that you can deal with.
Now, me being me, I would ask to speak to legal because I'm me,
because I'm legal.
You're not legal.
So what you should do is you should
be looking for a division that deals
with corporate agreements, like corporate relationships,
partnerships, deals with third party organizations.
That's what I would do.
I would reach out to the corporate department,
find out what is the corporate headquarters,
call the corporate headquarters, and say,
I'm such and such corporation.
I'm seeking to work directly with corporate
on the following.
Can you tell me who I should speak to to be able to do that?
They should not then give you all the way back
to marketing.
Marketing, again, it's a waste of time.
You're going to get somebody who's overly ambitious,
who believes that they can help you, but they can't.
Marketing has no power in corporate worlds.
It's just very rare in a large corporation
that somebody in marketing who's hired at $16 an hour
is going to be able to make a decision on behalf
of a billion-dollar corporation.
It's just not going to happen.
So you deal with corporate.
Now, what's likely going to happen
is if you get the right person in corporate,
then they're going to send you an agreement that says,
these are the conditions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
If the people you're dealing with in corporate
don't understand anything from what you're talking about,
and you're hitting a wall over and over and over,
then you can act to speak to legal.
But I would not start with legal.
Because if you start with legal, legal
has to get permission from corporate.
So what you did was you went all the way
to the back of the animal to try to get permission
from the front of the animal.
And it's like, why not let the animal see you first,
address you, make the assessment,
say, yes, I do want to work with you,
as opposed to all of a sudden they turn around,
they're mad at you because you've been trying
to get in the wrong way, right?
So it's like, address them face-to-face,
try to speak with corporate,
and you want to deal with the division
that deals with corporate deals, corporate partnerships.
Corporate partnerships is one of the best areas to deal with.
And then you bringing your proposal to them, right?
Now, most of them are gonna ask you
for a non-disclosure, non-compete agreement.
This is where you get into trouble, all right?
So let me expand upon this.
If in the non-disclosure agreement, it has a non-compete,
that's a huge red flag.
I have told you all that when you create
non-disclosure agreements, and any of you
who have ever asked for a non-disclosure agreement from me,
which you guys know, I think I charged you guys
like 500 bucks or something like that.
I've sent someone out to you guys,
one that I use like all the time, right?
That one has non-disclosure and non-compete, why?
When you are the one disclosing,
you want all the restrictions.
When you're the one signing,
somebody else's non-disclosure, non-compete,
you want less restrictions, right?
So it's kind of like, I hate to use the terminology,
but you're getting married, right?
And you're incredibly rich.
And you're like, I want the prenuptial agreement.
Like, I wanna make sure that this person can't,
if they divorce me, they didn't try to marry me
just for the money.
So here's all the restrictions, right?
And you think that's a great thing.
Now, if they leave me, I still have the resources
to provide for my kids, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
But what you don't want is to be entering into a marriage
with a prenuptial agreement,
because that means you get nothing.
It's the same thing.
Every relationship with a company is a marriage, right?
Not our definition of a marriage,
but essentially it ends up turning
into being something similar to a marriage.
So you have to make sure
that if you get a non-compete agreement,
that's a big red flag.
What that's essentially telling you
is that not only can you not disclose
what they disclose to you,
but you can't practice making goods
or providing services in that same area.
But what if you are already competing in that area?
That's the reason why you reached out to them
in the first place.
You thought it'd be a great partnership.
Now you signed a non-compete.
If that non-compete is enforced against you,
and it doesn't have like exceptions to non-compete,
where the exception to non-compete says something like,
if you are already doing this before our meeting,
that's an exception to the non-compete or non-disclosure.
If that's not in there,
you can just shut yourself down
for as long as a non-compete is enforced.
That's not smart business.
So you can essentially walk into a meeting
with a large...
corporation that has a non-disclosure, non-compete agreement, sign on it, find out there's no
exceptions to it, and you essentially just made it so that you can't bring your own product or
service forward because it competes with them, and you signed an agreement saying that you
wouldn't compete with them. Don't do that, please. Like, if you get a legal document
from a company, let a lawyer look over it, okay? So, Bonnie, in your situation, I would reach out
to the corporate division. Go ahead. I have one quick question on that, too. So, let's say you're
doing a testimony, and with somebody's testimony and their logo, maybe you have the picture and
the logo's in the back, and or you show a picture of you being someplace, and their logo's there.
Are that, is that, like, out of order as well? That's a great question, and this is not
legal advice. I'm going to tell you how it works, all right, and then you have to make your own
decision because this is tricky, all right? In the, let's say that, I don't have one here.
I was looking for a painting. All right, here we go. Hold on.
Hold on. I'm just going to grab a painting from the wall over here.
All right.
Okay, here's a painting. So, this is a painting, right? And so, let's say that this is in the
background. It's over there, right? It's like, there we go, right? So, it's over there on the wall
hanging out there as I'm doing my video, right? Here's my video, and we've done the entire
video. It's, like, smack in the middle of the video. You're seeing it the entire time. The
question is, is this a problem, like, you know, first of all, for copyright infringement, right?
Because I'm essentially displaying somebody else's copyright. This is when you go into that
whole assessment that I taught all you guys before, meaning, what's the intent of the video?
Is the subject matter of the entire video the image? You know, am I making money off of the
displaying of the image? You know, those are things that we do in our assessment to determine
whether or not this is something we covered before. I could see if we could either raise it
again or if I could find that video for you guys, but that's one of the assessments we do. It was,
like, is it the subject matter of the video or is it just in the background? Like, this entire time,
like, it's right there. Psalm 91 has been there the entire time. It's not the subject matter
of my presentation. It's on the wall. It's just there, right? I'm not, it's not the intent of
the video. It's just kind of, like, in my background, right? So, that's less of a problem.
Now, let's talk about a logo. Logo is a whole other ballgame because when you see a logo,
everybody knows the company immediately, right? Like, why is a logo on your wall, honestly? Like,
what other purpose would you have? Why would I have on the back of my wall right now the logo
Nike and be talking about sneakers? Like, it's just clearly I'm using the logo to have commercial
gain, to show, perhaps, affiliation, to show, you know, acknowledgement of my ability. I have
a personal benefit of using that. That's a problem. That's just like if I had a website
and on the website, I displayed the logo. If I'm putting the logo smack there on my wall
or even separate from that, let's make it even worse. Let's say I created a background with the
logo. And that's what most people do. Most people aren't going to have, like, a frame with the logo
on their background. They're going to create a background itself, like, choose virtual background.
Oh, I don't have any of them on here. Never mind. There's a new computer, so I don't have it.
Well, some of you know how you can actually change a virtual background. So, you know, you create a
virtual background and it's got the logo. That's a big no-no. That's displaying somebody else's logo
in association with your services. So, that's problematic. But if you get permission from them,
like we talked about, then you could do that. Now, here's the thing. And here's the thing I want
all of you to keep in mind. This is really important. Whenever you get permission to use a logo
or to use materials from another party, there are conditions to that.
They do not, it's very rare that you will ever see somebody give you a blanket like
license, very rare.
What a blanket license is, is yeah, sure,
use our trademark or use our copyright any way you want,
we don't care.
That is very slim, very slim chance of that happening.
All right, what you usually have instead is
you can use it the following ways.
This is why you have to read the license agreement.
So as an example, like I was blessed to be,
you know, named super lawyer.
I've been named in Woodward White,
best of the best, lawyer of the year, like all those.
Each of those groups have logos.
I can't just grab their logos
and throw them all over my website and say,
look, I'm this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.
I can't do that.
They actually charge you to use their logos
because they know that just saying,
just seeing their logo, you know,
American Bar Foundry member, right?
This was an act of God.
I'm thankful to the Lord for this.
Like 1% of the lawyers in the world, you know, are in that.
So you would think I'd want to use their logo, right?
But there's a fee because they know the value.
So you may get permission to use the name,
but not have permission to use the logo
because the logo is what draws people in.
They see that logo and bam, they get drawn in, right?
So I can say all over my website,
American Bar Foundry member,
and you'll see it, like you actually see,
I'll show you really quick.
Like I have an area,
actually, no, I don't want to do that.
That's tacky.
I'm not going to show my accolades, that's tacky.
But there's a list of accolades, right, on my website.
Well, you don't see as any logos.
I don't list them all.
Now I could go forward and pay 200 here, 300 here,
500 here, 1200 there,
because they know how valuable it is.
Did I receive the award?
Yes, but I got to pay extra for the logo.
And even though I get the logo,
I now have to use the logo the way they say.
Some logos can only be displayed on websites.
You can't go and put them on t-shirts.
You can't go put them on your backpacks.
You can't go like sell them on jerseys.
Like, no, there's only certain rights that you have.
So anytime you obtain a license from a third party
to use their trademark,
determine what the license covers.
There are different types of licenses you can get.
They cost more money as you get ones that are broader.
Does that help, Bonnie?
Oh, that's fantastic.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Miguel, go ahead.
On the same subject.
So good, Peter.
Thank you.
And great questions, Bonnie.
So on these same lines,
first of all, you're making me like look around.
Like, oh my goodness, what awards, right?
I'm like, my wall's going to be empty.
No, you look fine.
Are awards okay?
I'm going to ask my question in a minute.
Awards are fine.
Yeah, I've got-
Yeah, I know.
We have the same.
If Pedro wants to sue me.
I know, but I'm like looking at this here
and I'm like, these things got to go today.
Sorry.
Okay, good.
All right.
I'm asking you.
Anyway, I'm just telling you what's on my mind.
So now for those of us who help others,
for example, build a funnel and build all that, right?
Someone tells me, you know,
especially I was working with maybe a celebrity,
like tells you, oh, I have this,
all these corporations told me, yes.
You know, I have it.
They said, yes, right?
And I get it in writing from them by email that they got,
oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
When you say them, when you say them.
Like my client tells me in writing by email,
I have their permission to use this,
go ahead, boom, and slap them in there.
No, what you need to do is you need to see the permission
that they have from the people.
Am I on the hook for that?
Even though I had them sign an agreement
that they're responsible to get the permission from them.
All right.
And I have all my legal things square.
This is interesting because I felt very strong
in the spirit earlier today
that we were going to talk about indemnification.
And now I know why.
We're like at the end and I'm like,
we haven't talked about indemnification yet.
Now I know why.
Okay.
So Miguel just asked a real practical
and important question.
You're representing a client.
Client says to you, I've got permission to use these logos.
You're like, okay, I want to see in writing,
you know, that you're saying that I can use these logos
in my project.
And they're like, yeah, sure.
No problem, right?
So that's kind of like somebody robs a bank.
I'm not saying your clients have done this.
I'm just saying, just imagine this scenario.
Somebody robs a bank.
Then they come and they knock on your car
and you hear the alarm going off and everything, right?
And they're like, hey.
And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's going on?
Hey, can you give me a lift?
And they've got like a bag and money's falling out of it.
And they're like, hey, can you give me a lift
to the train station?
And you're like, do you have permission to have that?
bag with all the money in it. They're like, Yeah, okay, come
on in. And now you drive to the train station, police pull you
over. And you're like, and the person's in the police says,
like, you're arrested. And you go, Well, why am I arrested?
Like, I do is drive him. They're like, Well, he robbed the bank.
And you're like, Well, how am I supposed to know he robbed the
bank. So now they do an assessment. They'd start
analyzing things. They're like, Well, oh, he had a bag, there
was money, there was an alarm going off. Yeah, you're kind of
toast. But let's detach it a little bit, right? So we start
taking away the alarm. Now you just see a big bag running out
of a bank. Like it's just the assessment that's done. You
want to make it as clean as possible. So if your client says
to you, Hey, look, I've got permission to use these logos.
What I would do, I would ask to see that permission. Now some
of you may say I can't do that, then they're never gonna work
for me. I understand. Right now we go into the business
assessment area that we talked about earlier. Remember how I
told you there's like the legally sound way to do it. And
then there's like a business way where you're kind of like, can I
ask my client for the permission because I know that if I'm
displaying their logos, I can be sued myself. Because it's it's
like this is fruit from a poisonous vine, essentially. And
you're you may not have been the one that plucked it, but you're
the one that's eating it. And so regardless of whether you
plucked it, or you ate it, you're having the same effect.
Right? And so you're using a trademark, you're creating
something that's trademark infringement. Okay, now there's
a thing called indemnification. Somebody type in the chat the
word indemnification. We'll see who can actually spell that. So
indemnification. I'll wait till at least one person types
indemnification. Yeah, I'll check these days. Man, was it
really that easy? Yeah, I guess it wasn't that I'll check spell
check. That's good. You guys got it indemnification. Okay, yeah,
is the only honest one here. I get it and she went like went
for it. So this is the way indemnification works. Please be
careful here like big alert. If you're if you're doing something
under the conditions of an indemnification. Be careful,
please. Because what that means is that you're already guilty.
All right. If you're relying upon being indemnified by a
number of another party, I'll explain what indemnification is
in a second. But if you're relying upon the indemnification
of another party, you're already guilty. Okay. So this is what
indemnification means. indemnification is a condition
of an agreement that says that if you're held liable for doing
something that you were hired to do, the party that hired you
will pick up the legal fees for you. All right. And we'll like
they'll provide legal services. There's a bunch is usually a
bunch of conditions that you that are added to that meaning
like they'll provide legal counsel as long as you are okay
with that legal counsel, you know, and you have the ability
to defend yourself separately, if you so choose. But then they
have to approve that legal counsel and they have to pick up
the bill. There's all sorts of like conditions associated with
indemnification. But the general gist of indemnification is you're
doing what you were called to do by the party, and then you get
sued. And the party says, because of this indemnification, we're
going to pick up your legal fees, right? We're they're
essentially saying we're liable for you getting sued for doing
what we asked you to do. Here's the problem that now some of you
might think, well, that's great. Like, I like that idea. Here's a
problem with indemnification. Okay. Number one, you've been
sued. That's number one. Okay. And it's public record. That
means now the public knows that your company has been sued.
That's number one. Okay. Some of you may care about that some of
you may not. Number two. The indemnification is only as good
as the one who provided it. What does that mean? You get hired by
a company that makes half a million dollars a year in a $20
million lawsuit. I don't care what the indemnification means
they can't afford it anyway. They're basically going to file
for bankruptcy because they can't fulfill the conditions of
the agreement. Start up another business doing the same thing.
And now you've got to pay the $20 million out of your pocket,
because they didn't fulfill their requirement. So
indemnifications, while they sound great, when you try to
enforce them, you got to look at who's giving you an
indemnification. Like if Microsoft
office give you an indemnification, they've got money.
Like, I'm not worried about that, right?
You know, that's not a big deal.
But if ABC mom and pop shop is saying,
oh, I'll give you an indemnification for using that name.
And you're like, well, mom and pop shop,
you make 150,000 a year.
A patent infringement issue is gonna cost me
5 million just to litigate.
You can't afford to indemnify me.
See what I mean?
Don't think just because there's an indemnification clause
that life is great.
That's not the case, okay?
So I just wanted to start out with that
because now I understand why I was gonna talk
about indemnification.
We were down to the wire and I didn't see anything.
So Miguel, going back to your question,
I gave you some insight.
Why don't you just kind of reword your question now
based on what I gave you.
Just give me your question again.
I think you've answered my question already.
I asked-
I just wanna make sure.
I asked if a client tells me,
hey, you're good to use this logo, right?
Because my buddy over here or whoever said yes,
I can use it.
So what are you gonna do?
So what's the answer now?
The answer is get that.
I have to have them provide that in writing.
Let me see the in writing that you've approved.
The whole thing is like, again, the business sense,
like now I gotta read those agreements
and see what exactly they got approval to use for.
Yeah, and that's difficult, right?
Because now you're trying to-
Then I have to ask a lawyer to interpret
what did they get approval for, right?
So it's a, but I get like,
at least have it in writing as a minimum.
Like, do you have it in writing?
And that's a step closer to somebody told you, right?
Here's the problem.
I mean, here's the problem.
And this is why what I would do on your behalf
is I would actually have an agreement.
I would create an agreement on behalf of your company itself
when you're working with others
that actually provides conditions.
It says that, you're hiring us is conditioned upon
you're having the rights to utilize any materials
that you provide to us and you hereby give us a sub license
or you hereby provide us with a license or sub license
to that material that you have a license to.
You also agree to indemnify us of any infringement
that we're held liable for based on any work
that I'm doing on your behalf.
Like I would add conditions in your own agreement.
I wouldn't just sign off on somebody else's.
I would list that.
And then if they come out to you and they say,
let's say there's a major client of theirs, Nike,
and they say, oh yeah, we have rights from Nike.
I'd ask them for it.
I say, can you please show that to me?
Because what you're asking me to do is you're asking me
to be the party who is responsible for providing material
that's gonna be publicly available,
having the logo of a major, major, major corporation,
you know, where I'm gonna have a target on me.
Now I want to do that.
I have zero problem doing that,
but I gotta make sure, you know,
for purposes of doing work going forward
that I'm honoring the party who owns the trademark.
And what I would do is in that message to them,
I would say the same way that I would honor you.
That's what I would say.
See, that's the way you're taking it away from,
I just don't wanna be liable.
It's like, no, there's a liability side,
but there's also being seen in the public
as somebody who is reputable, that's honorable,
that works under, you know, certain dignity.
And so that's the reputation you want.
And so the way that you do that in your message to them
is you say the same way that I would honor any logo
that you have.
So if somebody came to me and said,
hey, I'm providing services for, and you say their name,
I would say to them, before I use your logo,
I wanna see that you actually provided permission
to use that, you know?
I'm honoring all parties.
And at the same time,
I'm making sure we don't have personal liability.
So Peter, if someone did get that verbally approved
at some point and in their best interest,
they did not know what they were doing
because someone told them yes to use it
and the company so-and-so reaches out,
sees their logo, right, on this website somewhere.
Like, hey, I've worked with these companies, right?
And this is one of the logos.
Like, I've worked with these companies, right?
It's a classic done by experts.
Like, I've worked with so-and-so-and-so.
So like, then they reach out.
Are they, like, liable economically at first instance?
Like, when they get the notification,
they're already liable for whatever damages are?
Or do they get one chance to remove it?
We gotta break this down.
So piece by piece, right?
So, well, let me answer your question first, all right?
This get a chance to remove it
depends upon the party who owns the IP.
Got it.
I have clients that give zero chances.
Got it.
And then I, although I tend to get rid of those clients
cause I don't like the way they do business.
But anyways, I have clients that do,
like I had a client who literally would send
a cease and desist and requirement for $2,500 immediately
or he would sue you.
Now, when he started out, when he first met with me,
people were copying his website.
So he said, how do we stop people from copying the website?
I said, file a federal copyright application.
We filed it.
I said, now let's send cease and desist letters
to people that are doing it.
We did.
He said, well, I want to get reimbursed
for the money that I'm spending on you.
I said, okay, well, why don't you ask for $2,500,
you know, and see if they'll send some money
associated with the legal fee.
This was for the first one, sent it out.
He received $2,500.
He said, oh my gosh, that worked really well.
I said, yeah, that's what it's supposed to do.
He says, all right, well, I've got these other 12 companies
that are copying material.
I said, okay, great.
He says, let's send the same letter.
I said, well, I'm just copying the letter.
Like I'm just, I'm changing the party.
So it really isn't $2,500 worth of legal fees.
He says, yeah, but so what, just list 2,500.
I was like, well, hold it.
You say in the letter, you're asking for reimbursement
for your legal fees, but your legal fees are like 500 bucks.
Now they're not 2,500.
He says, well, let's do like one or two more.
I'm sure there's gonna be some legal stuff
associated with it.
So we did one or two more.
And then he says, every one of them is 2,500.
I said, I can't work with you anymore.
And he's like, but why?
I don't understand.
You're doing what I hired you to do.
I said, yeah, but you changed from trying to be reconciled
for something that was wrong
to trying to make a business on suing everybody
when a lot of these people don't understand
what copyright law is anyway.
You know, now, if you wanna send a cease and desist letter
and ask for a thousand, I'm okay with that.
But you're doing 2,500 and some of them you want 4,500.
I'm like, for what?
You just turned this into a business.
This is not trying to help you.
This is a business now.
And so I let him go as a client.
So all of that to basically say to you,
it's up to the IP owner.
The IP owner may come out to you and say,
hey, just change it.
And you go, I'm so sorry, I changed it.
Or you might find out on the backend of a lawsuit.
Literally, you open the mail.
Actually, you wouldn't open the mail.
You'd have somebody knock on your door.
You'd open the door.
It'd be an officer of the law usually,
because they're usually the ones that are doing service.
You're like, what's going on?
And they're like, are you such and such?
And you're like, yes, you've hereby been served
for infringement of blah, blah, blah.
And you're like, what?
And you open it up and you were just sued
in federal district court for trademark infringement
or patent infringement or copyright infringement.
So it depends upon the trademark owner
or it depends upon the IP owner.
They could do whatever they want.
This is the beauty of owning IP.
I can be as sweet as I want to Bonnie
or as mean as I want to somebody else.
That's the beauty of it.
So, Ray, you raised your hand earlier.
Yeah, I was curious on the indemnification conditions,
how that works internationally when it comes to enforcing.
Well, you can only enforce based on the law in a country,
right, in a specific country.
So let's say that you're in the United Kingdom, right?
You need to determine whether or not
the indemnification agreements are honored
in the United Kingdom.
And there may be specific language
that needs to be used in that country.
That's why everybody's in the protection portal here
has access to my foreign agents.
That's literally part of the reason why I did this,
because if we're doing business in another country,
we may have an indemnification
that's enforced in that country, right?
So let's say that I'm working with somebody out of Germany.
And so my agreement with them
maybe have to be enforced subject to the laws of Germany.
Well, then I'm gonna call up like one of the guys
I know from Beats and Partner and say,
hey, here's my agreement in the US.
Can you review this to see if we need to modify this
based on German law?
And they may say, no, all that works here.
Or like in Germany,
employees have way more rights
than they have in the United States.
Exponentially more rights, like ownership rights
and like inventions and all sorts of things.
Like you can't just get rid of employees
like in some foreign countries
when it comes to rights for IP.
While in the United States,
you can do certain things a lot easier.
So you need to speak to an agent in that country.
Canada is almost exactly the same.
They're very, very similar.
All right, I'm gonna take one more question
and then I think we'll close.
Hey, Heather.
Is it like minus 20 over there?
Over there, is that like?
Oh, hello.
Actually, I'm in Seattle.
right now. I pick up my dogs and heading back to Alaska on Friday. Wow, poor dog. I know right.
I'm gonna have to get little booties for him so they can. I tried that for my dogs. They just
attack them and shred them. They don't. I know right. Does anybody else have any questions
before we close? I just want to see. Rick is moving in. No, I saw Rick moving in. He moved
his seat. Now he's forward. Now he's going to unmute and ask his question. There you go. Go ahead.
Let's see if the technology is working. Am I coming through? Hey, can hear you great. How
you doing, buddy? So quick question then. Is an email from, okay, backstory. Local artist in
Memphis agreed to let me use a bit of his music in a podcast for another client. We give him credit
at the end. Hey, make sure you see this band in concert. They're playing weekly on Beale Street.
He says, yes, it's okay. I double checked last week. Is this still okay? It's been a while. Yes,
it's great. Can I just get him to say in an email? Hey, great. Or do I have to get a document
from you saying the party of the first part agrees to the party of the second part and all that stuff?
Good question. The last thing I want is my client getting sued or me being caught in the middle.
Well, I mean, there's two things here, right? So there's,
is the party that I'm discussing things or negotiating with saying that they have rights
from another party. That's one part. But then the second part is the second question is what
kind of form does the agreement have to be in? Like what do agreements have to be in physical
writing or agreements by email acceptable? That's a very interesting question. It really has to do
a lot with contract law more than IP law because we're talking about enforcement of contracts. This
is why you see when you electronically sign agreements now, they'll send you this ability
to electronically sign a document as opposed to it just being an email that comes across.
You'll see like it's a form with an agreement. And then you have to click here to add your
initials or click here to sign. Everybody did that for, I believe, I believe in a hundred
actually guys had to do that too. So is an email enough to be enforceable?
Basically an agreement is something that has consideration. Consideration means that
one party is paying something for what they're receiving. That's called consideration, right?
So that's what an agreement is. Agreement has consideration. It identifies parties and
identifies what's actually provided between the parties. Can an email do that?
I mean, technically an email could do that. You can write on a napkin in agreement.
Like I can write on a piece, like we could be at a bar and I could write on a piece of paper,
you know, Peter hereby gives his Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Summit to Rick
Tarrant for $1 and I sign it and I hand it to you. That tissue now is an agreement.
So yeah, I mean really anything in writing could be acceptable. My concern would more be,
honestly, would more be if I'm getting, if the person I'm talking to is saying they have rights
from a third party. That's where I run into a problem because now I'm relying upon their
veracity. I'm relying upon whether or not they truly have rights and, you know, they might be
mistaken. Maybe they weren't in the Protector Idea Challenge. Now they got problems. We have to save
them, you know? So that's why we're going to tell them about the February. No, I'm just kidding.
So this is why, you know, this is why you want to be careful about the other party.
So if another party is saying that they have permission, I would seek to get that in writing.
Do all agreements need to actually be a contract? Meaning like, you know, here's a PDF that has
signature by this party and that party. They should. You know, if I'm relying upon an email,
in that email, the elements of consideration are going to have to be expressed. The elements of
what's provided are going to have to be expressed. The parties are going to have to be expressed.
If I'm going that far in the email, I might as well have a separate agreement.
As opposed to, like, if I get an email from you, Rick, that says, hey, peace.
I can use the music from Candice.
I'll let you use it.
Catch you later.
That's not really an agreement.
It's not naming the consideration.
It's not naming the parties.
It's not making reference to the license at all.
It's just kind of saying, hey, I'm letting you use it.
Period.
There's no, the conditions that are required
for a contract are not in that email.
So you got a license.
It would need to at least say,
in exchange for a mention in the program,
I give you permission to use this song as a theme
in this particular podcast for this particular person
and nothing else.
Would that constitute an agreement?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's helpful.
I think the other part to it is obviously
for them to make clear who gets rights, right?
Does that mean Rick gets rights
or does that mean that your company gets rights?
If it says you get rights,
that doesn't mean that your company can use it, right?
So it's, these are all things
that you want to kind of think about.
I mean, at the end of the day,
if somebody says, hey, Rick, I have rights to XYZ song.
I'm going to give you the rights to that
for the availability of being on your podcast.
And I'm going to give you rights for use on your podcast.
And you say, okay, got it.
The considerations there, they're listed.
It lists the podcast.
That's not bad.
I mean, that's not a bad situation.
I mean, when you look at enforcement, right?
Let's say all of a sudden they said,
I didn't give you permission.
Well, you got the email, right?
So now you have that.
The problem that I have with that, Rick,
is that they're making reference
to somebody else's copyrightable work.
No, this guy is, I mean, he is.
So it's his work.
He's the composer.
He's the, he recorded.
Oh, then that's a good situation.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, that's a better situation.
I just want to make sure that nothing could ever come back
on my client that I'm producing for.
Right, and that's why you want to have,
like have an attorney look at the email at least
to make sure that the conditions are there, right?
But in general for a contract,
in general for a contract,
you want to make sure the parties are listed.
You want to make sure that consideration,
the consideration is what's very important.
You can't have an agreement without consideration.
If I just say, Rick, I'm giving you this,
there's no consideration.
That's a gift.
That's not an agreement.
And so you want the consideration, you want the parties,
you want the conditions that are listed.
Like, does that mean you can continue using it forever
on your podcast or not, right?
So you might want to flush that stuff out.
Can you do it in an email?
Yeah, I mean, things can be done in emails.
It's just that what I tend to find
is the reason why people, take care, April.
The reason why people tend to ask, can I do it in an email?
Is because they didn't get everything upfront.
So now they're trying to look back and go,
did the email save me?
It's not, it's not because they're thinking,
well, as I go forward, I want to just use emails.
It's like, no, it's because what they have is the email.
So they're trying to figure out if that saves.
All right, and with that, I'm going to close.
It is 1 48.
So we're a little bit over, but we started late.
So does this help you guys?
Was this helpful today?
Good, I'm glad, I'm so glad.
It's so good seeing all of you guys.
We are rolling on the meetings, like on the audits.
They're happening, like they're rolling.
Like we're going to be having them
probably every other day now.
Ray, do we have one today too?
I have to check the calendar.
I don't think we have one today, tomorrow.
Yeah, so I know we have-
We get to meet with Julie tomorrow, April and Monday.
Check your emails.
There are things that we need
before we can schedule you guys
if you haven't been scheduled yet.
Yeah, so we can get those in.
I can get as many as I can before Christmastime
if you guys want that, or we can do it after.
Either way, but you want to use those
within three to six months.
That's the time period.
And I'm wondering if there's any other questions
or any other things, formalities.
Yeah, so all of you should have received
an engagement agreement from the law firm.
You need to sign off on that because it is legal advice.
You'll see when you're doing these meetings,
we go deep and there are legal assessments.
And so make sure you sign those, get them back to Ray.
And besides that, Merry Christmas to everybody.