Hello, hello, I'm Bruce's making sure that Bruce is here.
He's helping me.
I just want to make sure that Mike's on there.
You go, I'm not the only one who needs tech help girl.
Always.
I need tech home.
Ed is my tech help.
He is one who knows computers, has built a computer and all of that.
So anyway, so, and he set me up a, he set me up a dual
monitor, um, in our office at home.
And then he set up another monitor here today.
So I'm very excited.
I don't get to use it though.
Cause then I'd be talking with this and not, so I was like, I'll just do
zoom here, Bruce always has like multiple monitors and then I lose browsers.
Yeah.
I know.
Well, so that's what I'd forgotten.
What is an issue, uh, is, uh, especially when I'm using the laptop open.
So I don't know, do y'all have a clamshell docking station where you, you
just plug the Mac in, but it's closed.
Yeah.
So I have that on my desk, but I actually typically use, I open my Mac to use it as
a second monitor if I'm working.
Yeah.
But I can't technically close it if I just wanted the single
monitor, like the separate one.
Okay.
So when I have it open and I'd forgotten about this because I have, I have two
monitors and I thought, oh, well I'll just use three because with me, it's
always like more is better.
So I'm like, I'll do three.
So, um, it's a, well, I didn't anticipate using it like that.
You know, I'll plan on getting you a keyboard, but anyway, point is that
when I have it open, that means that, that I can, like you said, lose browsers
because the browser is on another display.
I know what's really hard is when I lose my mouse.
Now it's happened to me on zoom.
Like I'll like the zoom window will be one monitor and then the zoom, like,
you know, application will be on and I can't find where things are.
Yeah.
It's kind of interesting, but it's been a while since I've had a dual monitor.
And, um, and my dad has three, of course my dad's in IT.
Okay.
Yeah.
So he probably uses them to the max too.
Yeah, absolutely.
Anyway, so you get so much more work done with so many, so many displays.
I'm very excited about mine.
So anyway, how are you doing?
I'm good.
I'm doing well.
I, um, I, you know, I shared today, um, just kind of where I felt like I was at
and really, I, you know, it's been interesting exercise for me cause I want
to be vulnerable, but I also am trying to protect cause so much of what I'm going
through right now is relational, right?
So I don't want to, you know, villainize people in my life.
Right.
Um, so I'm trying to share it in a way that's like honoring and, but today I
was, you know, I was like, I was really trying to like, okay, can I use some
scenarios?
Can I, whatever.
And, um, I, in the scenarios I used for real, like business stuff and everything.
And then I like within the hour kind of, I think part of my subconscious heart
cry to the Lord is Lord, like, let the triggers happen now while I'm in the rest
intensive, because I, I, I want it to come out.
Like, I want to be able to talk and like process and this week, um, like, I just
don't feel like I've had those triggers.
Part of it is proximity and like, you know, whatever.
And then like, literally like an hour after I did my share, all these things
turned out, I'm just like, well, thank the Lord that I'm talking to Ashley tonight
because, um, like I, I'm not trying to pretend that everything's okay, but I was
like, you know, I feel like, I feel like, you know, it's more about me just
learning to, and then I'm like, oh no, people are pissing me off.
Like, it's not just me.
They're really doing it.
So I feel like we could talk about that maybe.
So, or absolutely.
By the way, I thought that your live was great.
I thought, wow, she's really just doing a great job at being vulnerable.
And like you said, protecting the, you know, protecting the, the names of the
guilty, she's doing a really, really good job, you know, must take notes,
Ashley, you know how to do this.
There's so many layers.
So I want to be as open as I can be with you.
Cause I feel like context is helpful.
And I honestly don't remember what I've told you and what I haven't told
you, just like in our friendship talks, I'll try to give you like a brief
context of like, like, did I tell you about the lawsuit and all of that?
Have I told you any of that?
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So in 2018, my father-in-law, um, business guy or whatever was running a company,
had been running a company that was software focused.
And, um, I'll try to like fill you in, but if you have questions and things
aren't making sense, I'm just trying to like, give you a brief summary.
He had a, so he was, um, He kind of moved to chairman of that company.
He had a CEO under him who wasn't related to us, but was like business partner.
That CEO hired Bruce to come on and be the president of that company.
Bruce was running his own company up until then, and they had hired him to
come in and do some consulting.
And that turned into a bigger conversation of, while it's really
helpful, would you consider basically coming in and running this company
and helping us get it?
Cause it was basically in startup mode.
Again, it had been a hardware company.
Like they sold like tablets before the iPad and, um, then the iPad came out.
And so they, they like shifted, became a software company, which
is some of Bruce's expertise.
And so that's why it was like kind of in the startup mode.
So that is happening.
Bruce decided to do that.
And, um, my father-in-law is business guy, but he was also like on eldership
in our church and, you know, ran Bible studies and things like that.
Well, as things progress, you meet people, people want to become
investors in the company.
Some of those people go to the church, that type of stuff.
So that was all happening.
And then, um, Two, maybe two years into Bruce kind of being part of the company.
Um, this guy had connected with Dion, his dad, like Dion had just written a book
called wired endorsed by Graham cook.
Who's a friend of his dad.
This guy got ahold of it and was like, this book has changed my life.
He was also a business guy, not really unusual for Atlanta.
A lot of business people who are, you know, Jesus people too.
Right.
And, um, he was like, you need to be focused on this.
Like, let me come in and help you with this company.
Like, this is my expertise.
So you can like be more freed up to do ministry and stuff at the same time.
Dion is, has left the church that he helped plant because him and Bridget
felt like they were like best friends with the pastors and stuff, but they felt
like they were like shifting into a new season of kind of marketplace ministry
and not so much like organizational church.
Um, and it was very like soft then, but I would say what became like a larger
revelation later of like, is the organ organizational church, the way it's
running now, like actually helping the kingdom advance.
So a lot of things happening, just a lot of like a lot of things.
Right.
But at this point, everyone's still getting along.
And then this guy who had come in to help, like, I don't know what happened,
but I don't know if this was always his intention or what Bruce always had
kind of an odd feeling about him.
The best way that Bruce could describe it was Bruce was like, he just like was, he
just didn't act Christian in business.
But Bruce was like, I'm used to dealing with that.
Like Bruce was like, I don't operate that way, but I'm used to dealing with
business guys who are just like bulldogs in the boardroom and then preaching on
the stage on Sunday, leading Bible study.
So Bruce was like trying to balance, like, is this just one of those
situations or is there something like really off?
So we were having those conversations and just kind of those, you know, things
started to feel like, what is going on?
Well, long story short, July 2018, Bruce gets a call from his dad saying he met
with this guy for lunch and this guy is like, the investors have been meeting for
the last month or a couple months behind your back because they feel like you've
built a Ponzi scheme and they feel like you're embezzling money.
Basically the charges were you have raised millions of dollars for
your own personal enrichment.
This company isn't a viable company and you have held your spiritual leadership
position as a way to basically con people into investing in your company.
Like these are people that we like did life with.
Like these were like the investors.
Yeah.
Like not all of them, but like enough of them, enough of them were like, I literally
was at their house the week before and they were like, we really want you to
mentor our high school daughter.
Like, can we like set up a meeting?
Like that was the type of relationship we had with them.
Like it wasn't, so we were just like really blindsided.
There was no lawsuit in play at that point.
It was just like, they want you out of the company.
And so, um, it just was this ripple effect of like us meeting with the senior
leadership of the church.
Cause we were still in eldership.
These people are like, like they're my brother's in-laws.
So that just makes like, just to put it in perspective, like my brothers
are your brother-in-laws.
No, my brother married a daughter of the senior pastors of the church.
Oh, got it.
Okay.
I, they introduced me to Bruce who was like her cousin growing up because the
family, the parents were so close, like best friends, knew each other back in
South Africa before they were all married to each other.
Like they went way back.
So the senior pastor wasn't an investor, but he, his whole stance was I'm pastoring
a lot of these people and.
and Dion and Bridget are no longer part of the church.
So he felt like he needed to focus on the people
that he, like his flock,
and kind of like wouldn't even talk to Dion at this point.
It was like, I feel like it's too messy.
Like after 30 years of friendship, it was really odd.
And so Bruce and I had a meeting with the senior leaders
cause we're like elders still.
At this point, Bruce is not, he's the president of the
company, but it's all on like Dion.
As far as like the accusation.
And then like the senior pastors were like,
the best thing we can do, like you can do right now
is just, cause we were like, what can we,
like you guys are, we understand this is a hard situation.
Like what can we do?
And they're like, take a step,
take a sabbatical from leadership.
Cause it's going to be hard if you're like in leadership
while all these discussions are happening.
So we did that, like just kind of took a step back
thinking this will be resolved soon enough.
They asked us not to campaign.
That was one thing.
He's like, if you can please not campaign
for your side of the story.
Cause I think he said,
I think it'll cause more divisiveness.
I think looking back, I'm like,
I probably wouldn't have followed that advice
or I wouldn't have agreed to it.
Cause I think that caused a lot of suspicion in people
that this one side was like very verbal.
And we were like taking a step back
because we didn't want to cause divisiveness.
So in March of 2019, so July, 2018, March, 2019,
there was a lot of stuff that happened between then.
Dion agreed to like basically leave the company
and like release his shares
to the rest of the shareholders,
like under the agreement that there would be no lawsuit.
Cause he was like so blindsided.
He was like, I, he's like, I don't, I'm not admitting
that I did anything wrong.
He's like, I just want to release any,
like, I don't want to get worse.
I want people to feel like they've got,
and there were people that stepped in,
other investors that were like,
we'll continue to run the company, which is like,
well, it's definitely not a Ponzi scheme
if you feel like there's still a company to run
because the definition of a Ponzi company
is there's no business, it's all false.
So there was a lot of contradictory things happening.
They, some of the investors had asked Bruce
to stay on during this time.
Cause they're like,
we can't run the company without you.
You hold all the networking.
I mean, Bruce was meeting with outside vendors.
I mean, he was the guy, right?
That, so they're like,
we really feel like you have what it takes
to help us like start to get this
becoming a profitable company.
And so-
It's a horrible position for them to put Bruce in
with his dad being accused.
Oh, horrible.
But you know, we, it was,
it's all the things that are coming out now,
as you can probably imagine,
like all the things I've shared,
like emotionally responsible for people,
like holding it all together.
Like that was Bruce and us in this company
cause we were just so blindsided,
but trying to like make it work.
And so anyway,
I'm trying to like get to the point of it,
but in March, 2019,
like I dropped Bruce off at worship practice
with people that are like kind of even
a part of this right now,
who have like, it's just,
I'm trying to like give you just a sense of like
the craziness of like,
you were literally rubbing shoulders with people
who are like accusing our father of criminal like intent.
Correct.
And they brought Bridget into it
as a co-conspirator, like his wife.
Yeah.
So like her name, so anyway.
Such a mess.
Bruce calls me, I'm like leaving the church
and he's like, I just got a call from my dad.
Like they have served him like a lawsuit.
Like this thing is finally legal.
And Bruce had told the Lord the week before,
he was like, you know,
I'm doing this because I feel like I can still help
and I can help turn the ship.
But he's like, Lord, I need to know what the boundary is.
Like at what point can I like leave this?
And he felt like the conversation with the Lord was
if it goes legal, like there's a boundary.
And like literally a week later it went legal.
And the guy that was helping,
not this isn't the same guy,
literally the guy that caused the scene disappeared.
I mean, as far as like he wasn't,
he hadn't invested in the company.
He just like started a bunch of like conversation,
which was odd.
But people who had actually invested,
like one guy who was like a seasoned,
these are like not,
these are like seasoned business people, by the way.
These aren't like people,
these aren't like grandmas who were like,
this is a good idea.
These are like executives of Coca-Cola people.
So like very like seasoned people.
Yes.
And so one of the guys who had like retired from Coca-Cola,
who was like, had taken over the company,
who wanted to work with Bruce,
had said like, I'm not planning on,
I feel like I'm a man of peace
and I'm not going to like take this legal,
but like his name.
was on the document. So Bruce called him and the guy was like, yeah, well, I've gotten some
prophetic words recently. I mean, this is the, I mean, it's just like, there's prophets on every
side. So Bruce and I were just like, so Bruce was like, I'm out. And, um, went and spoke with
the team that he had been working with and told them, there's like still a group of guys that
were like reporting to him and just said like, this is what's happening. I want you guys to
feel like you can make a decision based on what is best for your family. Cause there's benefits
involved, their salary. So like, I'm not expecting you to leave to like, prove you're faithful to
me. Cause these guys are like faithful to Bruce. They've been working for him, but he just felt
like he needed to tell them, like they knew everything. So it wasn't like they were like
blindsided. There had been a, you know, note was going on, but he was like, don't feel,
but some of them did. They were just like, I don't want to be part of this anymore.
And some of them stayed. Um, but that it was just like, I mean, cause Bruce was like, if I,
if these guys leave with me, the company's dead because there's no one to run it basically. So
he was trying to, even in his leaving was like, you know, and, but I mean like he was literally
leading like worship on a Sunday with someone next to him who was like on the lawsuit with his dad.
I was speaking at the women's conference that weekend with literally people who were suing my
parents, like on the speaker docket with me. Yeah. It was just, but we, it was like,
twilight, it was like twilight zone, but it was like, we just have to get through this.
And we didn't feel at that point that the Lord, and maybe some of this at the time was honestly
just us feeling like, I don't know if it was the Lord or if it was us, but at the time we're like,
we Lord, our desire is we don't like, there's an inheritance for us here. Like our past,
our parents have poured in over 20 years of themselves into this like local body.
Bruce has sown over 20 years, like from the little Bruce being there on Sundays to like
teenage Bruce leading production to like, you know, I had been there for a decade. So we're
like, we don't want bitterness to be the thing that runs us away. Like if there's still inheritance,
like we want to leave with your word and your command. So that was like, we, so we stayed
all through 2019 at the church. And then in January, 2020, we were literally sitting there
and when you and I met, didn't we meet January, 2020? I mean, let me just put it in the perspective.
Actually, when you reached out to me on Facebook, I'm like, is she a mole?
No, I'm just like, this is fascinating. Just the connection. Well, because there was, there
was so many weird things happening. Like they were like, they were telling people that the FBI
was involved, which there's never been proof to this day that that was, the SEC eventually was
involved and everything was like taken care of with that. So like nothing was, but like people
were being told that the FBI was involved. Yeah. Just rumors. And just rumors. But like people
were like, it was just, it was just volatile. It was so, it was such a play of the enemy at such
a grand scale that if I like, I could sit here in days and talk about it. But we felt in January,
we were literally sitting in service and the senior leader are, and at this point, these are,
these are still our spiritual mom and dad. So they're meeting with us on the side. We're not
in any leadership. At one point, they didn't have me on stage for a while. Then they're like, well,
you can, you know, I think the way that Bruce and I can describe it or the way that we,
what we've come to terms with is people were like under the, like there was a spirit of violence
behind this thing and people were doing the best they can, they could. Like no one was a
professional at like this type of crisis. Right. So we're not holding people to an accusation of
they should have done this or they should have done that. Even if they could, it was like, I
think people were literally moment by moment at times. So but they, we had at that point stepped
away from everything. I was doing things like, you know, prayer ministry. Bruce was like doing
tech team. Like we were volunteering with things like, because that's part of the church culture,
but we weren't in any leadership position, anything like that. And we had met Pedro kind
of in the middle of all this on Facebook. And we're like, got this renewed vision for
like just being unashamedly a part of the marketplace and not feeling like we had to be
Christian business leaders, if that makes sense, like business leaders who happen to be Christian.
Yeah. Yeah. And so we're like, okay, Lord, like, I feel like you're giving us whether I think this
is just a provision from you for us to have community where we're accepted and we belong
and celebrating all that stuff. So we weren't like, you know, we were talkative about it,
but we weren't like, you know, I don't know, but it had been mentioned kingdom entrepreneurship.
in church on Sunday, and they announced that they are starting a business ministry, a ministry for
business leaders. And, you know, our spiritual dad, our senior leader says, you know, I've just,
there's a lot of talk about innovation from heaven, which was something that Dion's, Dion,
Bruce's dad talked about a lot. Like we can receive innovation from heaven for business,
for culture and everything like that. There's a lot of talk, you know, there's all talk about
innovation for business and kingdom entrepreneurship, but I'm just really
interested in integrity in business. And Bruce and I just like sat there and just for like,
felt let go, like felt released. And I did something very uncharacteristic and I just
looked at Bruce and I was like, Hey, are you ready to leave? And he was like, yeah. And we just
quietly make a scene, but we like walked out and we made an appointment with our leadership
that week and we just honored them. We said like, I mean, we prayed about it that day,
you know, from like, we just spent the rest of the day at our house praying. And we just felt
like he gave us Genesis 12 where Abraham's, you know, he said, told Abraham, leave the land of
your fathers and go to a land I'm going to show you and all that stuff. So it was not an easy
decision, even after all that piled on, but we felt like, okay, this is the release. I think that
we've been waiting for. And so we went and had a conversation with our leadership and we wrote a
letter and we said, everything we're telling you in this meeting is everything in this letter.
And it was all honoring because we truly felt it like it wasn't, but we said, just so you know,
we are not having a conversation with anyone else that does, that has additional information
from this letter. So if you hear from somebody that we have said something that is contradictory
to this letter, like we're asking that you reach out to us because we know people are going to make
stuff up because they've been doing that. But we want you to know, this is our hearts. We honor
this house. We honor you. We love what you built. We love building with you, but like, it's time.
The Lord's asked us to leave. Like it's time to go. And so we felt pure at heart and that like
we've done all we can. And if anyone asked us like, Hey, what is going on? Like, we were like,
Hey, here's the letter that we wrote to Greg and Michelle. And this is what in the leadership of
the church. And this is what we believe. So that was January, 2020. And we told them, we said,
we don't have a new house that we're going to like a new spiritual home. We felt like we didn't want
to have one foot in one foot out. So like, we're just, the Lord said, go. So we're going. And I
said, we said in the interim, we're going to just let Bethel Reading online be our covering. Cause
that's a house that we trust and we've been fed from, but thinking it would be like a month or
two of that and then COVID hit. So then it was like, everything was online. So the complexity
here is, you know, my brother is this couple's son-in-law and you know, there's still, there's
like, I'm like that I'm never released from that. Like there will always be a connection point.
There's also Bruce's sets of siblings who have had different experiences of all this fallout.
And so I'm the point I'm at, I think, and so, so here we are today. So I think there's been
some natural, like had the situation not happened, there's been some natural things that have
risen in our relationships with siblings and parents, just based off of like, we're all our
own people. And we all have now our new family cultures, like aside from this happening, like
that's just, we've all grown up, right? Like people are, so people have different beliefs,
different political views. COVID's brought some of that out more than ever, right? Like,
but what has made it difficult and what I think has made it hard for me to just be honest is
because there's been this really, and by the way, so the lawsuit, the court dismissed the lawsuit
just two months ago. So that's like done, finally. The court just dismissed it? Yeah,
there was never. Was it so, oh, but so it wasn't settled out of court, but they dismissed it.
Did anything, did Dion or the other side have to make any kind of settlement? No settlement.
The court just dismissed it. There wasn't enough evidence. That is amazing. Yeah. Ours was settled
out of court with literally nothing exchanging hands, except the promise that we would never
tell anyone who they were. That was the only condition I'm like, well, whatever, because
it's public on public record. I don't tell people that, Hey, it's public record. Anyway, go look it
up. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that wild. So that's what I was trying to understand. So what was all
the same thing? I mean, yours was settled in court as a nothing exchanging.
And ours was not allowed to court.
And I think it's changing hand this while, but anyway,
we just, I mean, there's, there's like, yeah, you know, so we get the, we get the
call, like it's finally dismissed.
It's like years, right.
It's been since 2019 and I just felt numb.
I just was like, it wasn't a victory.
It was anticlimactic.
So, yeah, so I just, well, if I felt like the war is over, but there's been
casualties, that's how it felt like, but there's been death, right.
And, um, here's kind of all the hats I'm wearing.
A big part of me is like, Lord, I see your hand.
Like, I don't think you caused this, but you allowed it.
And there are so many like things that have happened personally.
And Bruce and I, his life that would not have happened.
Had we been stuck in that system, it's not, I don't even hold this like.
Bitter view towards the church or anything.
It's just, I feel because in the last four years I've come into a greater
understanding while I've met you, I've come into greater revelation of rest.
I've come across Chris's teaching, a greater revelation of sonship.
I've come under Pedro's mentorship, just a greater focus on like kingdom.
Like what could that look like in all spheres of influence?
Not just in a Sunday morning community outreach, you know, all the things we
probably agree and have similar views on.
Right.
It's like, so, and just who we are as people, like we've grown so much, like my
prayer in July, when all this was going down was like, I just, I want to empty
the enemy's hands.
Like that is, that is like, cause I just felt like the Lord followed me for like
weeks with this like question of like, what do you want?
What do you want?
And you know, you start out, you're like, I just want this to end.
I just want people to know the truth, but he just kept pressing me.
And I got to this place where I'm like, Lord, I want to empty the enemy's hands.
And I feel like that was like this, like, like it was a decision day for me, not
even really knowing what that actually meant or entailed, but just knowing like
I'm willing to give myself to that.
I know it will be painful, but I know it will be rewarding.
And so we've walked that journey.
So a big part of me is like, Lord, I like, I so trust you.
I'm, I'm not trying to nitpick details.
And this person said that, or this person said that.
I think there's a, there's a smaller part of me that is dealing with relational
resentment that is probably beyond the situation, but because the situation
happened, I feel this weird tension of trying to protect people.
Like protect my siblings, protect my in-laws.
Like I don't even, you know, like I have like, just like, I have just like
regular, like, you know, mother-in-law daughter-in-law vibe sometimes with my
mother-in-law, which would be normal under most circumstances.
Like, oh yeah, that's just, that's just as usual.
Right.
But because of the situation, I feel like I've had to suppress so much of myself
because I've wanted to protect her from further hurt, but, you know, but it has
like entrapped resentment inside of me so that any like engagement with her, I'm
just like frozen almost because I don't like, I don't want to react, but I also
don't want to be honest about how I feel.
Like, it's just, you know what I mean?
Like, so, and I'm finding for whatever reason, like since September, I think I
mentioned, I might've mentioned this to you.
Like, I just had this weird interaction with one of my sister-in-laws and it
just broke something in me where I'm like, I am not holding this line anymore.
Like, I don't care what happens.
I, I know it almost in a way, which I think was scary.
It's like, I felt like I gave up on her.
Like, I just don't even want to.
On the sister-in-law?
There's so many sister-in-laws.
I'm sorry, but this is the one that we were talking about from September.
Yeah.
So like my, so Bruce's brother's wife, there's two brothers, two wives, but both,
both of them, just one of them I've known for, she's been married to his
brother for almost 10 years.
So we've known each other for over a decade.
We did early, you know, we did our twenties together.
We kind of grew up together.
There was always a bit of tension because we're just different, but there also has
been great moments of us like coming together and unifying, and I feel like
there, I, you know, I used to have a lot of hope for the relationship, but I feel
like a lot of my hope for kind of all the relationships, because I don't know.
It's hard to explain my brother, my, my brother and my sister-in-law didn't
really stand with us in this.
They didn't really stand against us, but they didn't really stand up for.
us, right? So that was, that was a hurt. And it was, it's kind of would have been one of those
elephants in the room that we've never really talked about. So that's that happening here.
And then all of Bruce's siblings have varying degrees, like one of his brothers still attends
the church. And you know, they're very progressive and love being like, call themselves the black
sheep of the family. Like just, they kind of love that identity to the detriment of
any type of unity we once had. And it's just, to me, I used to feel like I could absorb it more
and be like, oh, you know, they'll like outgrow it or whatever. But now I'm just like, I'm feeling
done. So I know this is really complicated. But I, if I could kind of get to where maybe I feel
like I'm stuck and maybe you have insight that I maybe don't see, but I feel like I'm dealing with
relational resentment, many different directions at varying levels of degree. And I'm like,
is it that I can't forgive? Is it that I forgive and then there's something else that happens that
needs further? I don't know. Am I the problem? Like, am I being too judgmental? Am I holding
people to a standard that's not fair? I think that's where I'm like, I'm stuck and confused.
Yeah. Well, no, no, it definitely, everything that you say just makes complete sense.
Okay. There's two things I want to say, and I don't want to say one and then forget the
other one. So Lord, please help me to remember both. Okay. So one of them, the, the, the,
the impression that I get that we'll probably need to unpack a bit is to see if that you think that
that really is it is. And I think that you alluded to it earlier is the fact that you've been trying
to take, that you've been taking on the responsibility for everybody else to the
point where you haven't taken care of you, which is why, I mean, even though you've tried, it's
like, you haven't done it to the depth that it needs attention. And by that, I don't mean like
all of these things that you need to forgive and get rid of. I'm talking about healing about the
fact that, you know, you were done wrong. So to use the slang phrase. And, and so I think that
that's why things keep, keep coming up is because there really was a very deep well, because it was
a very complicated situation, any just coming from one direction would have hurt bad enough,
but all of the complication, and then the, the trying so hard to keep yours and Bruce's,
you know, to, to, to walk that balance in all of the complication and to make sure to listen to the
Lord. Okay. What is he saying? Okay. No matter what, what we feel like he's asking us to do,
we're going to do it. But then, and so there was just, there was a lot there that could create
a lot of wounds, including your own strife and effort of trying to, trying to do the right thing
all the time and trying to figure it out. And by that shore, some of that is sweat.
And so there is that, which can do a whole lot of damage and a whole lot of wounds, but just
simply just trying to balance, even just like walking on a tight rope or whatever,
it does wear the muscles out that it does make you tired. So even if, you know, you've kind of,
you've gone well and you know, you've done a good job and you, so to speak, you know, in other words,
you've kept the balance and et cetera, and you well done good and faithful servant, you do come
to the end where your muscles are just spent. So if that, so that's what I'm talking about,
if that didn't have the depth of attention that it meant, because you're taking care of
everybody else, then no matter how much you're trying to like, forgive, et cetera, stuff keeps
coming up because it really was a very, I don't want to say complicated situation because it was,
but what I'm saying is, you know, the Lord and how he heals can be very, can be, that can be very
simple. What I'm saying is that the physical complexity of the situation really added to the
depth of that wound. Yeah. And and so it really is very significant and very serious what it is
that you've been through. And so I think that might be why these things keep coming up is that
there's an amount of you that hasn't been fully that hasn't been fully.
uh, addressed and cared for, even though you tried, I think that there's just more there.
Um, and the other thing, just because I thought it was a very surprising thing to come to
mind when you were talking about you and your mother-in-law, and you said that you were
trying so hard to protect her, that you felt that, that you couldn't ever have that you've
been struggling, having a healthy boundary with her because you're trying to take care
of her.
What I saw in my mind was what Casey was talking about when she talked about, um, you know,
on her post where she mentioned that she had gone to the doctor and said that the tumor
had now had now pressed into, and I wish I could remember her exact phrasing.
She didn't say the word invade, but she said, pressed into, um, uh, and we'll use the word
invade the muscle, um, a muscle bed or muscle tissue.
Like a, like an, another layer of muscle or something.
I remember what you're talking about, how it had pressed into it.
And she said before it hadn't been in there and why I got that picture of all things when
you're talking, I'm like, Hmm, so what does that mean?
But it's almost like there's something of, I don't know if this is what it means, but
almost like, um, what it is that your mother in law, either what she is going through and
that she hasn't dealt with in health healed from, or that you're guessing is still there
and you're wanting to take care of whatever it is, it is trespassing now.
And it's pushing into and causing, um, causing an even greater issue in your life.
It's now invading into, and there's a word kind of like correcting and corrupting is
not the word that I want to use, but it's not bringing in a healthy thing into your
world.
Yeah.
So, um, maybe, maybe that's what it is, but all that I know is I got that picture.
And so I thought that is a very surprising picture of what is exactly is that need.
And, um, but we do know that the things that have the things that happen as a result of
the type of situations that y'all went through, if not dealt with can be like a cancer.
It just like grows and develops this tumor that, that starts to grow prolifically and
then starts affecting other areas that it hadn't originated in.
And, you know, just starts like literally taking up space and like, and mass, and then
starts like the picture that I got with you is like pressing into other territory.
And I'm not saying that your mother in law is intentionally doing that.
I'm saying that I'm wondering if you're, you're wanting to basically absorb the, uh,
any, any lack of, and I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but a lack of
boundaries or where she is being her, but you don't feel like you can be appropriately
you with her is absorbing it.
And now it's actually her issue, whether it is a real issue or it's what you think is
still an issue, whichever, whatever it is, it's encroaching on you.
And so yeah, an issue, but anyway, that makes sense because I literally have conversations
with myself.
Like, has it always been this way?
I mean, I've known them for, you know, 14 years because Bruce and I were dating and
then we were married and I'm like, I don't remember it being like this, you know, like,
and then I'm like, well, maybe I just had a, maybe I had grace for it.
Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, you know, I don't know, but, um, I feel like there's
just been this intensity of behavior that like, I, I, I like physically react to when
I'm with her, which is not my heart towards her.
And like, you know what I mean?
Like she's not an evil person, like, you know, she's very loving she's and I, there's so
much that have happened in her life that I'm wanting to be like, not just like the situation,
which is big enough, but like, you know, they became empty nesters because Bruce's youngest
brother like has moved out and got married in this time period.
Like there's just been a lot of identity shift just in the natural.
So I'm like, there's just a lot that they're still carrying even now.
And I can't even imagine, like, I have bits and pieces obviously, because we've walked
with them through this, but there's so much that they've had to like legally carry and
financially carry.
And like, you know, they've had to sell their dream home and like, they've been renting
and like, you know what I mean?
Like it's just, there's at this stage of life, you know, they're doing like kind of starting
over again.
And there, I feel like they're stuck in kind of some old ways of thinking about therapy.
be and inner healing even, and just kind of being anti that, um, not feeling like it's,
you know, it's too feeling like it's very worldly, you know, things like that. And I'm like,
I think therapy could do you some good. It's just that type of, you know, and they've had,
they've had Graham, Graham and his wife, Teresa have stood with them through all of this. Like
Graham would get calls from people being like, you should have nothing to do with these, you know,
people and Graham would be like, I am not entertaining that at all. Like, you know,
I mean, they've had some very few, you know, but very, um, substantial people like stand with them.
So I think even at times I had resentment of that, which sounds crazy, but I think they had
people that would stand with them. Well, I feel like I, it could, it could be selfish. So I'm
just going to say it cause I want to get it out there. But I think there were times where I felt
like, not that I, not that Bruce and I had it worse, but I feel like we got like, we were
extremely isolated. Like we became divorce overnight. Right. Yeah. Cause we had these
spiritual parents who literally raised us to love each, to love, you know, they endorsed each other.
They endorsed themselves to us. Right. Like, yeah. And then, and then all of a sudden they were
like separated and like never wanting to be friends again. And Bruce and I are stuck there
in the middle feeling like if we're, if we talk to one, we're not being loyal to the other vice
versa. Yeah. And I feel like they both like both sides to this day feel like we, in some ways chose
the other and we lost both. Yeah. And you know, they're, you know, his parents are pre like
preaching, but you know, like, you know, saying things to us, like, you know, you know, the
comments about how therapy, it doesn't help anyone. And I'm like, but you, you had therapy
by another name. And like, you had Graham cook on speed dial. You had like Bruce and I literally
did not know who, like, I couldn't even tell, I could tell my parents, like I obviously told them
I couldn't, I can't talk to my mom about any resentment because she is literally relationally
tied to everyone involved. Right. So it's just not wanting to dirty someone's window.
It's not wanting to cause further offense. It's so like, it was like,
it was like Bruce and I in the Lord and yeah. And there's, I think infiltration is a good word
because like, you know, Bruce and I introduced like Pedro and his dad, because like, we're like,
Hey, you guys like shared like hearts together. And now Pedro and his dad are doing things,
which is awesome, but it's like, okay, well, this is now another world that I have to be
filtered because yeah. You know, and, and about the relational stuff. Right. Cause it's like,
I can't cause I, cause I honestly, in my heart of hearts, I think they're great people. Like
I don't have, like, I don't think that they're, I don't think that they're criminal. I don't think
that they did what they were people accused them of. Like I've had front row seats for the last 13
years. They're people of integrity. I truly believe that. I just feel resentment because
I feel like I'm a child of divorce in many ways. And they, you know, did sow seeds of discord after
everything happened. Understandably so. Right. But it was hard for us to carry that turmoil of like
them saying things about this person and you know, all that stuff.
Bear the burden of, of the reconciliation, meaning like the reconciliation of what was being said,
not reconciliation of people. Right. I mean, I think they treated us as friends, which is
typical. I think most adult kids relationships with their parents at some point that happens,
but like, we still needed a mom and dad. Yeah. Well, may it be into me.
I'm still waiting for that. And I'm literally, I mean, Bruce and I literally looked at each other.
I don't know, like a month ago and we're like, Hey, like we need a mom and dad. Like we,
we actually need that. Like we just need to admit to each other. And so that's part of the journey
the Lord is taking us on. Cause like, I'm like, I was so resistant. Like I don't call Graham,
like Graham, we have, we have since developed relationship. Like we've done stuff together
and Graham and Teresa have even recently been like, Hey, if you guys need anything,
which I love. And I think that he can be a mentor to me in like a lot of respects,
like prophetically, like I'm definitely taking advantage of that offer. Right.
However, I can't like sit down with Graham and Teresa and be like,
my parents are driving me crazy because they're friends with them. Right. And I don't want to
cause division because they need friends. Like my parents need friends. Right. So, you know,
like Pedro and Suzette, like amazing couple, but like, Pedro is not going to be my spiritual dad.
He's not trying to be, but it's like, they're friends with Deanna Bridget now. Like we can't,
it's just, it's too many, too many factors. Right. For it's how that's how it feels.
right. So anyway, I know I'm saying a lot of things, but all of this makes sense because
you're right. I mean, all of those things are in your heart. All of those things are,
are factors that you're trying to, that effect that, um, I don't know, just this, the situation
affects your emotions affect your, um, your trying to reconcile all of these aspects.
And, um, yeah, no, it makes sense. And then Bridget's like, I really want to join
kingdom messengers. And I'm like, it was really sweet. I was very impressed. She did. I'm like,
wow, that's, that's amazing. It's just another great compliment to Bruce and Lindsay that
his mom would, would, would, you know, trust them enough to join, put her under their
guidance. That's amazing. And I know, I mean, and that's what it looks like to the outside world.
And there's authenticity in that. I just think it's another layer of
infiltration where it's a part of my world is no longer mine because now I have to filter
once again. I see. Yeah. This makes sense. That makes complete sense. Not that I was planning
on getting on until I were talking about my mother-in-law in a negative way to kingdom
messengers, but it's just another place where like, I am to be extra cautious and careful.
I have to, I have to now cover again. I have to cover her again in this, in this place. So,
you know, that there's this, so that's, that's a lot of where the unrest is, is obviously at
a parental level. I think that filters down to sibling levels in many ways, because
I think part of my resentment is, you know, Dionne and Bridget. So I think this is true
for probably any parents. I think, I think it's true, but like, you know, they,
the siblings are not all like unified anymore. We don't hate each other, but we're not all doing
ministry together. Like we were, we don't even have the same view of Jesus. In my opinion. I
mean, there's some siblings where I'm like, I don't even know if you believe in Jesus. Like,
yeah. You know, they're like literally posting like Halloween pictures tonight,
like from your favorite Coven or whatever. Like, and making crystal energy healing jewelry. Like,
I, you know, it's just like, and there's part, and like, I'm, I've started to say a few things
because, you know, Bridget and Dionne kind of are like, oh, we're so glad that like everyone's
serving the Lord or, you know, say something like that. And I'm just like, I don't, I mean,
that was true at one time, but I think we have to update our narrative. Like, but then I sound
like a jerk. Right. Because I'm like pointing out, I'm like, I feel like I'm like this older brother,
like, and I'm not, it's not that I'm like, I just want, I just want people, I just want us to like,
acknowledge reality and not deny reality. Like, and I don't want to be,
I don't want to be held up with these people on the same, which is very older brother. Now that I
said, that's hilarious. But it's, I think it, I think I just have to tell the truth, right? Like,
if that's where it's really, if that's where some of the resentment is coming from of like,
look, like we haven't made all the same life choices. We're not carrying all the same weight
right now. It's not that I don't want that to be true. I just, it's not true right now.
It's not true right now. And the more that we pretend that it's true,
then the real issues aren't addressed. Like, I don't want siblings exposed. It's not that
it's just like, I don't, I'm, you know, I don't know. So I think it's, I think the Lord has
started accelerating certain emotions for me and triggers that have been kind of long suppressed
because he's like, we can't move forward in the new season with this baggage,
which I know I just don't feel it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Obviously. And everything it is that I'm
hearing, I'm actually very excited about because it's all, it's all good things. It's all good
things coming. It's all good things. Very specifically for you and Bruce. And so here's
what some of the things that I was hearing, you know, when you were, when you were talking like,
for instance, about your, your, the siblings and everything, and you were like, Oh, I'm so afraid
that that's like very older brother. Well, the interesting thing is about the older brother,
what was the older brother's problem? The older brother was probably his issue.
Wasn't probably that he didn't like his younger brother. It was the fact that his,
his resentment was with his father. And he was just like, why did you do this for them?
But you didn't do this for me. His issue wasn't even be like, well, Lord, you know, you know,
father, you know, do you know?
What he's done, you know, are you sure that, that we should allow him back into
our midst and we want to correct this.
His issue was, well, wait just a second.
What about you and me?
And so the, the, the really cool and freeing thing is that the
father's answer was you have it.
He's always had it.
So a lot of times what we want you to like, say for instance, of all the siblings
and why it kind of like bothers us.
It's like, well, wait a minute.
You know, you're saying that there that we're all serving the Lord and
you're going away just a second.
We're doing these things, but then there is this expression over
here and that's not the same thing.
You know, I, what I believe is going on, you know, you know, in your, in your
heart and, and what is actually the real issue that completely will take care of
this, what feels like resentment towards all of this other stuff is just simply.
Knowing and finally receiving from the Lord, everything it is that's quote
unquote, do you, and I don't mean do, because you have do as in D U E not
because you've done these things and therefore you get a reward, but rather
they are for you and available.
And then, you know, going before the Lord and somehow between you and the
Lord, removing the things that aren't allowing you to receive it.
And, um, and that's no condemnation, you know, true or anything.
I'm just saying, in other words, there's no obstacle, God's not
withholding anything, et cetera.
And so one of the things, again, that I was, that I was hearing when you were
talking about, like, uh, related to, you know, your parents, your parents
have all of these people.
And I believe not that I know what it is, but I believe that there is a way that
God has made provision for you and Bruce to have what it is that you need, because
God is not providing math for your parents and he's not doing it for you.
Where that discrepancy is, is in like why it seems to have been so obviously
manifested for your parents and not for y'all.
I don't know.
I don't know if it's, if it, um, you know, is one of those things where you'd ask,
well, you can just ask the Lord, well, Lord has, have you brought something?
And then I didn't, I didn't see it.
You bring something and I gave it to my parents.
That was for me or, you know, which, which isn't a pass by and
then you don't have anything more.
It's just kind of like, oh, okay.
You mean Lord that you, you did see me and you still see me.
And so there's still something more.
It's not like, oh, well, there's that one chance.
It's like, no, God's just like, there's lots of trees in the garden.
You know, just come to me and I will supply because of there's abundance.
There's always an option.
There's always a way it's not like a, well, that was the one chance.
That was the, that's the world's way of viewing it.
So I believe that there is some way in which there are, there are needs of you
and Bruce to be seen and to be, to be, you know, fathered and mothered, you
know, to be parented and to be able to have that, and then, so I believe
it's just asking the Lord it's agreeing with the Lord that you have it, that
he's made that provision somehow.
And then just being expectant.
I mean, like fully open, expectant, risking disappointment, expectant.
I'm kind of like, okay, God, I know that there's provision somewhere.
And so just to show me Lord open, open our eyes, make provision Lord
for it to actually come in, for it to present itself itself for us to
actually see it, because when you do that, that will trigger and prompt
the thing to come is by opening and making the space for it, it will, it'll
start coming.
So it's when we kind of circle the wagons and close and close things
up, that everything stops and the opportunities stop coming and
the things start being prompted.
In other words, things stop moving in that particular area of our life.
And we're doing it, trying to self protect and act.
And then we're wondering, well, God, why aren't you sending something?
And he was like, well, you, you, you stopped the flow.
You know, we didn't think we were stopping the flow.
We didn't mean to stop anything, but it's that same idea of like the
river flowing through our, through our hands, you know, the water
flowing through our hands.
We get to experience so much more of the river if we keep our hands open.
But as soon as we find something that we think either we love, you know, what
we love, you know, how the spirit is, is manifesting in our lives right
now, and we want to keep it.
And we know that seasons change sometimes, and I don't want this to
change, or we get ahold of this idea and think, oh my goodness, God finally
brought such and such, well, I want to hold on to it to make sure that he
stays pleased with me, or, you know, we do, or what, because we grab ahold of
things for different reasons, or we grab ahold of something fearing that the.
River's about to dry up fearing that, you know, we're about to be without.
So I've got to hold onto this as long as I can, but whatever the reason of us
closing, um, you know, circling the wagons, trying to preserve something
exactly the way that it currently is in our life or in our relationship with
the Lord or whatever, we actually stop.
We actually literally kill the thing by grabbing ahold of it.
So anyway, the, a, a principle of the spirit is that it always has to,
everything always has to stay in motion.
It always has to be flowing in order for it to stay alive in order
for things to keep coming, et cetera.
So, um, sometimes the same principle is like, if you want a, if you want the
Lord to move in a particular way, then you, you start, you start making that
part of your life active again, or.
Um, I don't really know.
Um, this is one way that I was talking to, um, to Ed, we both believe that
eventually the Lord is going to remove this from morning star and
we're just waiting like for when.
Well, one of the things is, um, yesterday or, uh, yesterday we took
mo like most of our tubs that we have, like tub, uh, not Tupperware.
What is that called?
The, the really big ones, you know, the slide, big plastic slide under your bed.
Yeah, the tubs and the big ones and, and like, oh, and then
like really big rubber made ones.
I mean, so there's a lot of like storage stuff, including a lot of like just
material items, clothes and household items, whatever, but I'm specifically
talking about all the storage stuff.
Ed was mentioning, he said, well, you know, um, I was, uh, we were holding
onto all that cause I was just like, well, you know, surely we were wanting,
we're believing that the Lord is calling us to leave at some point.
And we're just kind of like waiting.
And I said, I know.
And so he said, but now we've just let go of stuff.
He's like, well, what if all of the stuff that we were going to move with,
you know, the boxes and the, and the tubs and the whatever.
And I was like, exactly.
I said, I don't think that God was going to move us while we had them.
I think that God's waiting for us to get rid of them.
Because in other words, when you don't have to have it, in other words, when you,
um, God has shown me, he's like, Ashley, you can't stay in a mo always in a mode
of preparation and of anticipation of something in other words, prepared.
For something coming.
He's like, I prep, I make the provision and the preparation for you when it's needed.
So in order for things to get, get moving and for you to start moving in a direction
that you want to have to let go of the preparation.
So I know that that sounds a little strange to mention now, but I believe
it's the same kind of principle of certain things that we're hanging on to.
Sometimes like in, like it could be in y'all's case, because that's what we do
when we hurt is we circle the wagons.
And there's some aspect in which we stop, including taking care of everybody else.
Like we're stifling ourselves in trying to take care of everybody else.
There is a manner of speaking in which if it's not done, if we were, if we were
given a particular grace for it, if there was a particular time, you know, then
that's great, but the time, so to speak.
Kind of ends.
And then if we keep doing it, then it means that there's that there's no flow of
spirit anymore, and we've actually stifled everything.
We've stopped it completely and then nothing can move anymore.
Nothing can heal.
God can't bring in provision for that healing or modalities for the healing,
therapy or spiritual mother and father or whatever.
So I don't know what it is that y'all would feel like with the Lord that y'all
could do in stepping out in anticipation of God moving, but there's some way in
which you'll know between you and the Lord that you need to open, I mean, you
definitely need to open like emotionally and spiritually and kind of like, okay,
God, I'm hurting and I believe that you're going to provide a, some kind of
a, some kind of a, uh, what's the word provision for it, some kind of a
provision for, I'm struggling to kind of like articulate the picture that I'm
getting exactly that I'm experiencing a little bit, you know, we kind of came
into this final quarter of the year with this, I felt prompt from the Lord, like
internal territory was like the word, um, something that we were going to be
walking our advancement group through because, you know, all the stuff you've,
you've heard us talk about, and we obviously don't want to ever lead out of
theory.
So we were like evaluating ourselves, like, okay, where are we in this journey
when it comes to being open to the internal territory, the Lord's building.
us and we felt like a big blockage was this resistance to spiritual fathers and mothers.
Even people at Bethel, just call Bill, Papa Bill, and that nauseates me. That's how,
that's to the depth of aversion I was to, look, people can be my mentors, they can be my friends,
they can be my big brother or big sister in Christ, but I ain't calling them mom and papa.
That's where I was. So Laura was like, hey, that's a block we have to remove.
And then it was just so interesting because it, it made us start to focus on
kind of this final frontier of healing that we've been experiencing measures of healing along the
way, but it was in ice. It was like within, like, we didn't have enough outside voices. I do believe
like the Lord and his grace to us, like Ashley, you coming into my life at the time you came into
my life, even though maybe a couple of weeks, I'm like, I don't know if she was like hired by these
people to like spot on me. You didn't sound suspicious when you interacted with me. I was
like, oh, good, another friend. But I mean, like there, you know, even like Kate Hamilton coming
to my life at a certain time and being just a on the boots connection with Bethel. Like there was
so many things that the Lord set up that has been provisional along the way, but there was this just
kind of like, hey, you guys need to, whatever it takes, like therapy, inner healing, sozo,
like, are you willing to open yourself up to things you might not even understand or be able
to fully like grasp or control? And we're like, yes. And then you're like, hey, I'm going to
gift you the rest intensive, which is amazing. Cause like financially, like as abundant as last
year was a lot of that went to paying off debt and remediating our house. So like it's been,
and then it was like super tight this year. So like financially and spiritually and emotionally,
it was a, such a generous gift, like so amazing. And then when we were in Santa, like we're in
California, Graham and Teresa were like, come to Santa Barbara for a few days. And so we did that.
I, we connected with this lady, Holly, who had actually been in kingdom messengers and she wanted
to gift me one of her sessions, which is like a really, you know, the trauma, you know, physical
healing lady I was telling you about. And then she was like, Hey, like, would you consider a trade?
Cause I need some help with like some online stuff to do like a five session. So then I had
like five sessions that I'm going to be doing with her. I've already done two, like just out of the
blue, the Lord was like, here, take it. And you know, something, so there's been, so I'll have to
say, I feel like, like using your language, which has been so helpful is like, we made a powerful
choice. And then like, it felt like heaven opened up to resource that choice. Yeah. And as you were
talking, I was like, okay, that makes a lot of sense because I think that I was living in this
preservation of relationship, trying to keep people tied to a definition of an old season.
Cause that's how, like, I felt like if we could just get back to this place of like, we're all
doing the same thing. We're all believing the same thing. We're all like, which, you know, it wasn't,
it's an Egypt moment because it wasn't amazing. You know, I know when you look back, you're like,
Oh, but we had meat to eat. It wasn't, it wasn't bad, but there was bondage because we were tied
to a system that was no longer actually serving us, but we had been doing it for our whole lives.
Right. You know, like we were church kids and we were tied to a definition that wasn't serving us
anymore. You know, like there's just like all of us, all of us kids, like we, so I think as messy
as the breakout and breakup has been, and maybe part of like this, like line that I crossed back
in September when I was like, I'm not doing this anymore was a release. Like you're saying of like,
we have to let the river flow and I've got to stop doing this because like, this is dead.
I have dead fish in my hands and I need to let it release. And even what you were teaching about
outcomes, like, so stirred me again, because I, I think I was trying to control the outcome.
I was trying to control the narrative. I was trying to,
you know, control the mess. And I, I still, I, I still feel like it's going to get messier
in many ways before it gets better. But I don't want to be the thing that's like
holding it up. And maybe some of my resentment has been that everyone else has got to fully express
their stuff.
for better, for worse.
And I never felt that freedom.
So maybe that's where I'm feeling like resentment
is like everyone else got to say their piece and, you know.
Didn't get to, yeah, heal.
Yeah.
There's some healing in openness.
Even though, yeah, we don't wanna be attacking,
there's healing in being open and honest
and whatever.
And so, you know, it's like the same thing, you know,
for instance, that we do with our husbands
is she'd be open and honest not being attacking, you know.
And so it does, it brings healing and et cetera.
And, you know, trying to take care of
and protect everybody else didn't allow you
to have all of the healing in that.
And then of course, everything just gets stifled
and then it festers as opposed to being able
to come up and out.
And yeah, I know that there's a lot of resentment in me
that's built up towards a lot of people over the years.
A lot of people meaning like you've got friends,
you've got family, but then there's other people
that I don't even know.
And yet there's somehow kind of,
I can't even think of an example to give you,
but some kind of a connection that I have with them
that I have realized, you know, that I resent them.
Why on earth would I resent all of these people?
And I realized because I feel that they can be themselves
and I don't give myself the freedom to do so.
And so, yeah, I mean, and then of course, you know,
you don't get to have that,
you don't allow that part of yourself to be exposed
even to yourself, for you to love yourself,
for you to fully accept yourself, et cetera,
let alone to give other people the adult power of choice
to choose to love and be there for you as well.
Not to mention the fact that you being honest
and allowing your spirit to flow through them
is going to be more powerful than any godly
with a lowercase G love that you give them.
Something you try to do for them
is the godly uppercase G spirit giving them
is what is gonna actually help and heal them.
So in other words, my point in saying that
is it frees you from feeling like,
yeah, but I should do this.
Yeah, but it's a godly with a lowercase G love.
In other words, it's some kind of a Christianese thing
that we've adopted of like, you could call it niceness.
You know, the whole thing is like,
Chris talks about niceness.
I like that thing, that story sticks with me so much.
It's so relatable.
Yeah, yeah, it really isn't that.
Ed brought it up the other day.
He's like, you know, when Chris talks about,
you know, that niceness thing.
It's like, I know that kind of like
got everybody off guard.
I was there when he first,
well, I say that when he first said it, maybe not.
I do remember him saying it
when I was at a conference with him in person.
And it was the first time I think I heard him say it.
And I was just, I was caught off guard.
I was like, what?
It was like, it was at that, yeah,
it was at that thing where he was like at front.
He was in the same conference retreat center
that I did mine at later, that internship.
Yes, okay, I feel like I recognize the background.
So I was there at his conference.
Mine was literally the next conference
at that retreat center.
Oh my gosh.
It was literally next one.
It was like six months later or whatever.
And they hadn't had a single one in between.
It was very surprising.
And they said it was very weird.
They normally have stuff.
Maybe it was the whole COVID thing.
Anyway, point is that he said it and I was just shocked.
And I was like, I don't know what to do with that.
I was pointing this out.
Exactly.
I know.
So what part of like the culture is,
do we accept as Christian when really it's just,
it's just Christianese, it's not God.
It's self-preservation.
Yeah, it really is.
I mean, that's what it is.
I realized like, because there's kindness,
that's a fruit of the spirit, we're called to that.
But what the difference for me,
and I don't know if Chris articulated this way,
but I've just, because I've stirred on that for so long,
what is the difference?
For me, it's like, niceness is transactional.
I am nice to get nice back,
but kindness has no expectation.
Correct.
And I, as someone who has struggled with fear of man,
social anxiety, like taking cowardness,
which is a character of Satan himself,
a characteristic of Satan himself,
and attaching, to use Chris's words,
ascribing it to Christ's character,
that is something that,
you can apply that to many things in Christian culture,
where we have taken something straight from the pit of hell
and been like,
Like this is Christ-like character.
Yeah.
It's very blasphemous, isn't it?
We don't know that that's what we're doing.
God is so gracious to us.
Yeah.
So gracious and patient with us.
Oh yeah.
So you can kind of take before the Lord, like some of the scenarios that you've
been through, you know, um, and you know, with your, for instance, you know, your
mother-in-law or could be with a sister-in-law or brother-in-law or whatever.
And, and just, you know, I don't know.
You can, you don't have to go through like all particular scenarios, but I was just
mentioning that as like a possibility or an exercise and just, and just putting
yourself back, first of all, shifting into remembering who it is that you are.
The fact that you are fully loved right now, and then you are, um, and you're
unconditionally, and he's looking on you, he's delighting in you when he values you
regardless it with, I mean, completely.
Unconnected to anything it is that you do or don't do or whatever, or what you're
involved in or have been involved in or how you've handled things or whatever.
It's just who it is that you are and that you're completely unified with him, that
you're taken out of him, put back into him.
You know, you abide in him, he abides in you, you abide in the father,
the father abides in you.
And then from that perspective, once you shift into that place, then putting
yourself back in that situation with your mother-in-law, maybe the most
recent one, I don't know, and then putting yourself back in there.
And then from that perspective of wholeness, how would you handle it?
How would you, you know, when she did or said or whatever, the thing that she did,
you know, and it's not the wound that, that you, that you have, that
you, that you're meeting it with.
It's the wholeness you're meeting with what's the response in order to kind of
starting to maybe get a different idea of, of, um, uh, how to handle
those situations in the future.
Now, what has happened to me is when I, um, when I just continue to in
entrench myself and anchor myself in, in being completely and unconditionally
loved by God all the time, like I would think about it all the time, no matter
what it is I was doing every time I would change to something else or every
time, you know, from one activity to the next, or I would start to notice
some negative emotion or whatever.
I would always shift back to just the fact that I was delighted in, I was
enjoyed, I was loved completely disconnected to anything it was
that I was doing or whatever.
God loves me right now while I'm doing this, not because I'm doing it.
You just, I happen to be doing this thing and God is looking on
me and he's delighting in me.
And then sometimes I would go so far as to, okay, well, and he's
delighting in the fact that I'm appreciating this aspect of his
creation by interacting with it in this way or whatever.
And I would do that all the time so that it's not so that it's like in all the
good situations, the scary situations, whatever, and then that shifted me at
such a root level that I began to deal with relational issues and from, without
even from a, from a healthy and a whole perspective without trying, like in
other words, I began to respond as a whole and healed person instead of
having contemplated what I should say in those types of situations and watching
for those scenarios and making sure that this time I was strong enough.
And this time I stopped and I remembered, okay, that, that thing that's rising up
in me, you know, that it's not true.
And then fighting, it was just, I mean, sure.
Sometimes that works, but it's exhausting.
It's it is.
It's exhausting.
And then, especially for somebody who has a tendency towards self-doubt and is
always looking for the rule and is always afraid that there's some aspect of the
rule or some clause or some writer or some exception that I'm going to forget.
It's not, it's, it's exhausting.
It's complicated.
I doubt myself and I would rather err on the side of, of taking care of someone
else and taking care of responsibility for their potential response at my own
detriment than trying to, if, if I have too much doubt, then I always know that.
Oh, well, in my mind, you know, I just knew, but you know, I always know that
God will be pleased with me if I cover them.
I may not have done this right, but at least I did this part, right.
And God will be okay with me.
Even if he's not okay with this over here, this is the higher thing, or I don't
know, whatever I explained to.
myself, but that's what I ended up doing.
But, um, so anyway, this just made it easier and I actually became the whole
person, in other words, the whole, uh, you know, W H O L E the whole person that
was interacting with this situation and that whole person had a completely
different perspective and, um, and, and that thing that came at me, just, I saw
through completely different eyes and it didn't, it didn't knock me off my
identity.
It didn't tempt me to believe some lie.
I was perfectly fine.
And, and that was just easier.
Um, it was more, it's more effortless and doing that whole thing of like always
choosing that no matter what I was doing, I was in the shower, I was getting
ready, I was putting on my makeup, I was making breakfast.
I was, I was sitting down at my computer to learn more about business and look at
another webinar and try another thing.
And, and I don't know, go on Facebook and answer people's, you know, messenger
questions or requests or whatever.
And I would, I would always do it from this approach that, okay, I'm completely
loved, there's nothing wrong with me.
And I'm not trying to create a specific outcome that my survival is dependent
on is if my survival is dependent on my actions, God says that that's not true.
So that's what I'm going to choose.
And so therefore I'm going to take the pressure off of myself and off of my
action, and so now I'm just going to enjoy it.
And I had much more freedom.
I had much more clarity.
I actually worked faster.
I had more motivation.
I could get more done.
I could learn more.
I could expose myself more to more.
I could remember more of what I was learning and being exposed to just
simply because all of the pressure was off.
And so by doing that, I, I was, I was making a choice at a deeper and deeper
and deeper level, basically taking that choice and like ingraining it further
down into my DNA so that that, so that I was changing myself, so to speak into
this whole person and that whole person was going to interact in all kinds of
situations, some of them were going to be in those old relational situations
that had triggered wounds and now they were no longer triggering them.
And other, and then that same whole person was also because I had been made
whole by continuing to choose that.
What God said about me at a very basic level that he loves me and
that I'm unified with him.
Sometimes it was just that basic.
I could go and make and make decisions about what kind of actions that
I needed to do elsewhere in business or in finance or with another relationship.
It just, it fixed everything.
Everything just became clearer.
Then it became clear as to how to spiritually mature in various areas, but
by hitting it at that root level, it started fixing all kinds of things
without me having to focus individually on each one and try to make progress.
It was the route that they were all attached to.
So they all advanced as a result of me doing that.
And, um, as opposed to me trying to figure out, okay, specifically, okay.
Okay.
Let's put myself back in that situation.
Okay.
How did I handle it?
Okay.
Now, what kind of a lie was that?
What should I replace it with?
How should I remember when I'm emotionally triggered again, remember
what it is that I'm just now reminding myself, oh, you know what?
I need to write it down.
That's what I need to do.
And I need to put it in a room that it's likely to be close to or in my phone or
in my purse and like, I'm sorry, mom, just a moment.
I'll be right back.
And then I come and look at, I mean, it's just, it's just, it's just too much.
So, um, it, it can work and it does work.
It's just very slow.
And it honestly just doesn't deal with the root issue.
We're just battling the enemy, so to speak on his, um, on his own, uh, at his own level.
Yeah.
It's like punch for punch at the, yeah.
At the soul level, which is, he knows which he knows the spiritual laws and rules.
And so if I try to learn the same spiritual laws and rules, whoever knows
them better and, and fights with them more strongly and is more up to them wins.
Oh my word.
It's so much easier to just shift up here.
Uh, but the thing is that that requires vulnerability, right?
A vulnerability at a level that we all like, and we all think that we can do
until we're actually faced with actually doing it.
And then we find all the things that we, it requires, and we
don't want to let go of them.
Like, oh my goodness.
But then this could happen.
Or God could ask this of me, or I'm finally seeing things about myself.
I really don't want to see, and I definitely don't want God to see them.
And we can all talk about it.
I mean, you know how this is, we can all talk about it and we all
know what we're supposed to do.
But apparently by how we're living our life, we're in resistance
against being that vulnerable.
So anyway, the thing is though, that if we, if we actually do that, it's so
much easier to deal with all these things.
And that, that inner wounding and that trigger that I told you that I always use and say,
hey, you know, I was working with it on my identity.
And then I found myself, the reason I, the way I found out that,
that doing that effortlessly heals inner wounds, when I found myself in situations
and didn't even know that I was being, that those were all triggers until I looked back
on it later and look, wait a minute, that person's identity.
Those were actually wounds that I had had with my mom.
And, and those are, and I'm saying that, you know, you're with your mother-in-law,
those are really, really deep, like very sensitive wounds.
And those go back, you know, for, for both of us, they go back, you know,
years and years and years and years.
And, and I know that yours have gotten more intense more recently and that
you're questioning whether they'd exist in the beginning.
And I think that they did exist in the beginning, especially if you're questioning
it, if you're like, I'm wondering, has this always been there?
If you're wondering, I can almost guarantee you that it's always been there.
It's just that it's gotten probably more exacerbated because it was a wound that
has been heightened in exposure due to her due to her just becoming a lot thinner,
meaning in like, in like a, the buffer that she can use to kind of hide it
because there's been so many triggers to come up, et cetera, that, you know,
you're not, we're not, we're not God to all of those people.
That's not our role.
In other words, we can be free from that and not her mom.
So you can be free from that.
You are her daughter.
And that's, that's your role.
Now, the thing is though, that if that is not the role in which she's interacting
with you, well, then that is a, in other words, if she's, I don't know how to put
this, um, that, that our roles with other people have to be mutually agreed upon.
So, and they have both said, I'm sorry, I mean, to cut you off, but which was a
trigger for me, but they both, they both recently said like, Hey, we want to be
your friends to Bruce and I, like, we want to move into friendship with you guys.
And I was like, I think I'm sitting there and I'm like trying to decipher,
like, is this how it's supposed to be?
Like, I just, you know, and it's not to their credit.
It's not something that we have either one of us have told them, like,
actually, we just want you to be our mom and dad.
Like, maybe that's a conversation that needs to take place, but a couple of
different occasions, like I would say in the last couple of months, they've brought
that up.
Like, yeah, we're just, you know, we just want to be like, we realized we're moving
into a season where we want to be front, be your friends.
And I'm like, okay, it's just, it's bizarre in that.
I think part of the, I'm sorry.
I just realized what time it is.
No, I'm fine.
Um, no, I'm really sorry.
I meant to, I want to honor your time.
Um, Steve France, just chatting.
I think what makes me feel like sometimes am I the problem is because I sit in a
situation like that and I, and I, I trust them to a degree where I'm like, you know,
they have a lot of wisdom.
They have a lot of experience.
Like maybe this is how it's supposed to be.
Maybe I shouldn't question this or fight it.
And at the other, and then like, I walk away and I'm like, pissed
because you're wanting someone to lean on.
Right.
I think that's what it is.
But, but at the same time, this is why I feel crazy sometimes, Ashley, at the same
time, because of what we've been through, like, I don't feel like I can lean on them.
That's what I was wondering.
I was like, isn't that bizarre?
Like it's like, yeah, it's like, I don't, I, I, I wouldn't be able to be open in a
way that I wouldn't be able to do that anymore.
I don't even feel like I can do that with my own parents because I feel like, I mean,
I love them.
I know they love me, but I feel like I've outgrown some of the, there's aspects that
I feel like, like when I had Hannah, I like, I needed my mom.
I mean, like I was like, I need, I need some proximity.
Like we'd Marco Polo it every day.
Cause I was just like, and she was great in that role and other roles.
I feel like I have to be very careful because, um, I feel like she can be easily
offended on my behalf.
I feel like she has her own.
wounds from like her actual divorced parents that, you know, like, so there's,
so there is a level of friendship with my mom that I'm like, we're, we're peer level and,
and some things, and I've, I've learned to accept that for better, for worse.
I feel like with Bridget and Dion, I feel like there is,
which I could say for myself, but there's some blind spots.
Yeah.
They think that they have a level of connection with us that is not actually there.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if we've had a, I don't know if we've had a,
a blunt enough conversation with them to even shed light on that.
Like maybe, maybe we're helping with that facade that they think that, but I, I don't feel like
we're actively trying to like, we were not like, Oh yeah. Like, I mean, literally I was silent when
they were like, we just really want to, I just kind of was like, cause I couldn't, it's like,
it's gotten to the point where I don't want to lie to them. So I'm pretty quiet, but it,
cause I also don't want to tell the truth.
Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. That's what I do.
So I don't want to be honest, but am I, am I honesty would be something that would be,
you know, not cool to say I just am silent in my silence. A lot of times it's taken as agreement,
which I would have not been.
That's exactly what it is. So I, and then I'm like, I am part of the problem.
Right there with you. I know. I'm sorry. Well, one of the things that, you know, with your,
with, with your parents is it could be that I could be misunderstanding this, but I,
I believe that this is honestly how it works is that, I mean, unless people do this,
because they're like trying to, what does that heal a rift between them and their kids
where their kids are, are, are rebelling against them as being in a mom and dad role.
And so the parents are like trying to bridge the gap. Hey, we'd love to be your friends.
In other words, to kind of diffuse any kind of feeling. So, so there's that situation,
but that not feeling like the case here. I think that what it is, is that is them
feeling that connection with y'all is there is something that y'all have that they,
that they want, that they believe that they're at or where they want to be like
spiritually or in your perspective or in like what your life spiritually or physically or
professionally looks like it's developing into is something that they have a connection with either
in that they believe that they're either living out or that they believe is possible and that
they are heading towards. And so they feel that connection with you and that's what they're
offering, but it doesn't mean that y'all have that. I mean, that they have what y'all need.
Yeah. So that they're looking at your life and they're feeling the connection because of how
they view themselves and where they want to go. But it doesn't mean that, that y'all view their
lives the same as them being or going where y'all are or want to go. And so that's where there can
be that bit of a difference. So it just shows you like their perspective, you know, and a great
compliment and how it is that they view y'all and their, their connection to y'all, but relationships
are always a two-way street where they are, they literally only interact at, at the point at which
both sides agree. So if this side wants a relationship way past over here, but this side
won't let them come past here, then that's where it's, that's where it stops that the difficulty.
I mean, that's where the relationship is. The difficulty is that these people can get,
I don't want to say resentment. They can get resentment. They can get hurt. We can get
whatever, anybody who wants more than what the other wants to give or what the other will allow
in, you know, can get little, depending on how aware they are that that's actually happening.
They can get frustrated, et cetera, because they are not living in acknowledgement of where the
real boundary is. They're in a manner of speaking, not that we do this on purpose, but in a manner
of speaking, they're not respecting the other person's boundary boundaries way back here.
And they're trying to offer way up here. So all that y'all have to do is just to hold your boundary
where it is as opposed to filling, as opposed to, you know, letting your boundary be pushed to where
they want it. They can want this all they want. They can offer this much of themselves all they
want, but it doesn't obligate y'all to reciprocate because if, you know, if they're ignoring or in
denial of where y'all have placed a boundary. And so then y'all can make the choice about like,
whether you want that to be your boundary and then y'all have to.
you know, put it there in order for it to be not real. I don't know why I'm struggling so much with
with my words. I'm just going to really have to pray about that. But anyway, so in order for,
in order for that to really be where the boundary is and for y'all to basically have a right to it.
So if you're, if you're pushing the bound, if you're allowing the boundary to be pushed here
and you want it here, then we can't in, in all honesty, be resentful of this. If this is where
we've put the boundary, even though we want it here, we have to put it here. Yeah. That's right.
Yeah. Which it's really hard to do all this. Sounds great. Just talking about it right now.
I mean, I think, but the way that was really helpful because I think what I, what I struggle
with in Bruce is feeling the right to make a boundary. Oh yeah. It's the right, it's, you know,
and I think that's part of like where some of my like tips have been with siblings because
you said you're the oldest too. Are you the oldest? It's responsibility for everybody.
And then like your younger siblings do things. And I was like, I didn't even know that was allowed.
Like they like make decisions or like, no, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. I'm like,
oh, I didn't know we were allowed to like, it's exactly like, okay.
We're like, how old are we? We're like our little, our younger siblings are like in their
you know, mid thirties and we're going, yeah, you're, you're making a decision like that for
your family. That's allowed. Exactly. Like when you, I was cracking up. Cause when you're talking
about your sister-in-law being like, well, I'm going to do stockings anyway. I'm like, oh,
like that is a perfect example of, you know, on a minor scale,
but also major implications for everyone else. Like, oh, I didn't know we could just do that.
I know, I know. And my sister and I, we tried to, to, you know, to do a compromise and all of that.
And I knew what I was doing at the time, but at the same time, you know, to allow it,
but I thought at the same time, you know, I was just kind of like, yeah,
but isn't this Godly compromise anyway, I've learned things since then.
I know. And I think, and I think I've got, I, I, I think I've got a lot of catch up maybe
is the wrong word, but there's been a lot of history of me doing that and then, and then
being resentful and like everyone else is like doing their thing. Right. And I think I have to,
I mean, I so appreciate what you said about kind of releasing yourself from needing to strategize
about responses and reactions and all that stuff. I do feel like an anchor that the Lord gave me was
like, you are going to learn how to respond according to who you are, not react according
to what everyone else is doing. But that level of delight and love, like that's such a great anchor
because I feel, I totally agree with you. I think that will manifest healing at such a rapid rate
that me strategizing and being like, okay, when this person says this thing, I'm going to say this
thing or, but I, I have to discover who I am again. Cause there's, I think there's been a lot
that I've like, there's a lot about myself that I just have lost touch with
in this season. And I have to like, like who is, who is Lindsay in this circumstance? Who
is Lindsay in this scenario? Because I haven't allowed her to fully be expressed.
That's not me like losing it on people or freaking out or anything. It's just
me feeling the right to a boundary, to a response, to a belief
that may or may not be agreed upon or accepted by everyone. Yeah.
What is Lindsay really want when she's not obligated? Yeah. When she doesn't feel the
obligation. And that is like an extremely, that feels very risky. Totally agree.
That scares me too. I know, but that at the same time, I know it's, it's same time. It's,
I mean, it's tremendously freeing. And the thing is that's why I keep talking the other day. And
so I would recommend this to you as well, that you have to choose you because they can't, you know,
that whole idea of like, do I have the right to create my own boundary? Do I have the right to
whatever? Well, for one thing, one of the things that we're concerned about when we choose
ourselves or, or we choose, you know, and realize and try to acknowledge to ourselves, the fact that
we have a right to making our own boundaries, it can feel very selfish because we feel like.
Well, for one thing, it can only be, um, it can only that there's, there's a
limited amount in, so if I take some, that means less for everyone else is
what it kind of like feels like.
In other words, there's, there's lack in the situation and there's,
and someone's going to get hurt.
So I might as well absorb the hurt because there's hurt to be had
and hurt has to go somewhere.
So I might as well absorb it.
Well, that's bogus.
So, but, um, but anyway, that, um, Oh, where was I going with that?
It was very important.
Um, Oh yeah.
Choosing yourself.
So in choosing yourself, it's, it's, we can feel that it's selfish, but
actually when you do it from the perspective first, that you are loved
and you're unified with the Lord there's in you and you choose yourself.
After you choose that you are fully loved and you fully receive the fact
that there's nothing that you are completely delighted in without any
connection whatsoever to what it is that you do or have done or what decisions
that you made or will make, or have a tendency to make, like a lot of times
we'll judge ourselves even without, even without looking at our past or
present by our tendencies.
And we think that, well, yeah, but if I was in this situation, I typically
make that, that, um, uh, this, this type of a judgment call.
And therefore we identify ourselves as our tendencies.
And we think that that's, and then we can more, and then we try
to attach God's love to that.
And God's like, no, you, that has to be completely avoided, devoid of that
too, of your tendency to do this and your likelihood of doing that, et cetera.
And so it's, it's very challenging, but it's important for us to do that.
And then once we choose, once we choose the fact chooses our reality that we
exist in complete love, uh, disconnected from anything that we do or don't do,
or have a tendency towards, then we choose ourselves in that place.
We realize, oh, wow.
You know, I'm currently really special simply because God says
that I, and he delights in me.
So, wow, that's a specialness, not because of what I've done or what I will
do or what I'm likely to do, or, or have a tendency to do or say or feel or think.
Um, but just that I am then when we start operating from that type of a choice of
ourselves, we're less likely to create hurt and destruction as opposed to what
I've had to talk to the people in the rest intensive about, which is like,
okay, if you can't choose the Lord's love and his union, and you're struggling
with that, choose yourself.
Um, you, I think that it's healthier to do the other one first, before you choose
yourself, because you're choosing yourself in place of love, then you have
a tendency to operate more from Christ spirit.
We have a tendency to, to be very messy when we're choosing ourselves,
discovering ourselves, if we, um, in interacting in situations newly as
having chosen ourselves, if we haven't founded our choice in the fact
that we are completely loved.
So that has a tendency to create more destruction and more, I don't want to
see destruction, but be a very messy growth process, kind of like a child,
kind of like a teenager who goes through rebellion has a tendency to create more
destruction than, you know, and then another teenager who still goes through
the same questions and self-doubt and, you know, feeling self-conscious with
their friends and questions about peers and they're being offered drugs in
school, et cetera, if they know that they're fully, the fully loved that's
that, that is hard enough to navigate when you're fully loved, but when you
don't know who you are and you're just trying to get some sense of self, then
operating, it's, it's just a lot messier.
Can you both end up in the same place?
Sure.
One is just a lot messier.
And the reason that I gave that to people is for the same
reason that teenagers rebel.
It's the, it's the, it's the closest thing they can grab ahold of because
they can't grab ahold of the other yet.
Some, some kids, some kids can grab ahold of the deeper thing.
Some kids can't.
And so that I just give someone something.
Okay.
If you can't, if that's too big of a gap, if that's too big of a
leap, what can you grab ahold of?
And then God will provide them a safe environment to not have to bear as
heavy of the consequences as their actions would normally create.
Um, because he knows that they're learning.
And so he's going to try to protect them, but it is still messy.
And people, people have it, or are going to have a greater
tendency of being hurt, you know, et cetera, that we're not, we're just
like, we're not responsible for the outcome.
We're not responsible for people's responses when we operate out.
of ourselves, operate out of our wholeness,
operate out of who it is that we are.
So anyway.
That's really good.
Yeah, I'm just connecting a lot of dots right now.
Cause I feel like as you were speaking
and you're talking about,
I just realized how programmed I am
with that responsibility mindset.
I feeling responsible of people's experiences
and I think I've tied that,
it hasn't come from a place of,
it hasn't come from love, it's come for love.
Like I've been trying to do that
so that God would continue to love me, bless me,
be proud of me and how I've handled the situation.
Look how Lord I've handled the situation.
Look how I've emptied the enemy's hands.
I haven't given him a foothold.
I haven't, you know, I haven't taken the bait of offense
and I think the resentment is I didn't believe
that people were taking that responsibility for me.
Yeah, correct.
And I'm not saying that was true.
I'm sure there's been people that were trying to do that
in their own ways, but that's kind of why,
and parents included, like, you know,
feeling like they were saying what they wanted to say
when they wanted to say it and airing their stuff
and, you know, saying how they felt about the situation.
And I was just like trying to keep everything contained.
Right, and so that's fascinating that you put it that way
because you then, in a manner of speaking,
manner of speaking, you were like a child that was with a,
and I'm not saying this about your parents-in-law,
I'm just trying to make a, paint a picture here.
It's similar to a child being in a position with like,
say, a parent that comes home drunk
and then you feel like you have,
that you as the child are now having to become the parent.
You know, you haven't eaten,
your brothers and sisters haven't eaten,
you know, your parent hasn't eaten,
they can't function, they can't take care of this,
or let's not use a drunk situation.
You know, a parent who's sick, who's like bedridden,
can't take care of themselves.
You inappropriately have to become the parent
to care for the child and that creates trauma
because things are out of order of what God intended.
And so even though y'all were adults,
there's a manner in which even back then, you know,
I'm sure that maybe y'all saw them even more as your parents
and leaned more on them as like mother and father
that y'all would go to for stuff
than maybe you feel like you need or want to now.
And then if in that situation, the roles were reversed
or you felt that they were,
regardless of whether or not they were,
you took on that responsibility.
So therefore you experienced that,
you experienced the trauma of the roles being reversed.
Whether someone forced you into that role
or you chose that role,
you then experienced the trauma of a reversal of roles
because it wasn't intentional.
So, I mean, because it's not intentional by God
for that to happen and for you to have to carry that.
So you were carrying things that God never intended for you.
And so you are now bearing the consequences
of having to heal from something
that you rightly were never having,
was never forced on you or held accountable,
held that God never held you accountable for.
And I don't mean that to your shame or anything.
It's not that kind of thing.
It's like what you went through
and what you're feeling is that bad.
It wasn't, and here's my point, it wasn't natural.
Yeah.
And so it wasn't natural from God.
And you're like, I don't know why I can't handle this.
I don't know why I can't have,
I can't be handling this better.
I don't know why I'm hurt so bad.
It's been so long and there's this,
that this should have been enough for me,
you know, et cetera, et cetera.
No, what you went through was that bad.
That's what I'm trying to paint.
I'm not trying to say that,
hey, you've done something wrong.
I'm trying to say what you,
the experience that you went through
really was so unnatural that it creates that trauma.
And it's part of, it's a role reversal.
And then that is really hard to heal from,
you know, between you and like your parents.
And, you know, it's hard to feel and put and have
and need them in the place of parents anymore
and see them that way when you had to parent them,
when you had to protect them and take care of them
and et cetera.
So everything.
thing that you're going through is it makes sense.
In fact, I think it makes more sense than you're even allowing yourself to
admit. And that's why you're so hurt and don't understand is because it's,
it's worse than even maybe that you've admitted or known to yourself that it
was, it was more traumatic.
It was worse. It really was bad. What it is that you had to go through.
And and so anyway, there's,
there's a reason why it hurts that bad.
It's justified is my point. There's reason for their space.
And that's really, that's helpful.
Total side note, but, and you've probably heard me talk about this,
but it came up when it,
I was reminded of it when you were talking about the,
about the lawsuit and about how you just felt like, okay,
well it ended a couple of months ago and now it feels like there's this war and
now there's all of this residual carnage and all this time of healing.
What happened to us is when we,
I remember getting the phone call and from my we went through this with my best
friend and her husband. And so that's what it is that I had worked for.
And so they both called me and they said, Hey, actually, by the way,
this is what's happened. They've just settled,
agreed to settle out of court. They're drawing up the papers.
And, and my boss was just saying, you know, you know,
one of my best friends, he said, Ashley, this is really,
really hard because they put us through hell.
We didn't do the things that they accused us of because they'd accused him of
like embezzlement, all this stuff, you know, and then they put,
and then after a while, because they couldn't get to him after six months,
they couldn't get him to like admit it and to pay them money and all that.
Cause he was like, no, I haven't done any of that. Then they thought, you know,
what, I bet you that we can get to him.
If we put his wife and Ashley, who was, I was his only employee at the time.
He put his wife and Ashley on on the lawsuit as co-conspirators.
So that's how that happened. So anyway, it was, they were just like horrible.
And so anyway, the, uh, we went through a lot of bads, a lot of bad stuff.
And he was just saying, they've just, they've attacked us.
So personally,
these are people that we spent more time with than our own families.
We pour into these people. We went to their birthday parties.
They cried out to us a bit and they came to us for advice when they were
wondering whether or not they should have an abortion or, you know, they,
you know, they were wondering how to handle this, that, and the other.
And we were their counselors, like so familiar.
I know that's why when you were talking to us, like, this is scary.
And maybe you were talking about, you know,
it feels like very surreal because we were,
we were doing this and we were standing right next to the people who were like
suing us. And I was just like, this just sounds so weird.
Because one of our teammates betrayed us to the company,
betrayed us meaning what lied.
And then when you go back and you look at situations that you were in while he
was like trying to drum up stuff, you're going,
I always thought that was weird or I felt weird in that situation.
I started questioning him and I was like, actually, what's wrong with you?
Why, why question him?
Why think that he just because he put his phone down upside down on the table
while you, while the three of y'all are having a meeting,
why did your mind go to, I wonder if he's recording this,
where did that come from? That's out of nowhere.
It was that kind of thing. And looking back,
the reason why I had that thought is because the Holy spirit planted it.
Cause that's exactly what he was doing.
So all kinds of really weird stuff like that point is you find yourself kind of
like in this twilight zone where you're going,
where you finally grow up and realize, no,
that doesn't just happen in movies.
All of this stuff in movies really does happen to real people.
And even good people are sued, not just the bad people. I mean,
that was another thing for us, but the point is I didn't mean to go into all
that. The point is it was just, it was very hurtful and all of that.
And so Mike said, Ashley, I don't understand.
They put us through so much hell. What? And now we're just suddenly out of court.
Nobody's exchanging hands.
We don't even get to prove publicly that cause we were about to get a
jury trial. And so all this was going to come out very publicly.
And so basically we could like defend our name to the public because they were
coming after us from client to client,
trying to threatening their clients if if they didn't get rid of us,
if they didn't like break contract with us and whatever. So sure enough,
one of our con, one of our clients who was one of Mike's best friends,
by the way,
moved us out of their company because of the threats that they were getting.
So familiar. It's so nuts. Somebody, there was, there was all of that.
And so he was just like, we don't even get.
defend the truth. And so it was like, I don't understand why, what is God doing? And why is
it like this? And so we hung up and I started praying and, and it's like, Lord, you know,
what is this? You know, what's going on? Cause I was perfectly at peace. And I thought this
is fascinating. I'm at peace and Mike's not. Um, and so I'm, you know, praying about it.
And all of a sudden God said, cause it was never about you. It was never about y'all.
It was always about them and what it was. And, and they've got, they've got major things that
needed that just bubble to the surface and that this lawsuit all brought out. And he said, y'all
were a catalyst that could be put in a situation to trigger something that was already in existence,
but wasn't fully coming to, wasn't rising to its fullness. And he said, I could put you there
because I knew I, that you could, that you could be put in a situation and not be affected. In
other words, not be corrupted by the solution. And so everything exploded around you and yes,
it affected you, but it didn't corrupt you. It didn't change who you were because you were solid
enough in me that you were one who could be in this situation to trigger and your presence.
That's all it is. Your presence triggered the thing that existed elsewhere. So he said, that's
why I put y'all there. Um, you know, you didn't tell me like he'd like caused it or anything. He
was just telling me, Ashley, y'all were the catalyst. It wasn't about you. So that's why
it feels anticlimactic. So I don't know if that's what it is with y'all's situation or if that
brings any like help or healing in any of our conversations with the Lord about like, Lord,
there is this horrible, horrible war. And there's all of these casualties,
including our own relationships with other people. What what's, what's going on? You know,
what are you doing in S or whatever? And God just kind of showed me, Ashley, y'all grew and y'all
were strengthened in me as a result. But this whole thing wasn't even about you. It was because I could
trust you. It's like, okay, then I can take that. So, and it wasn't though, until for another several
years that were, I could forgive them. And we're meaning like, I didn't feel animosity towards them,
but there was a, there was a, a trigger of, of trauma. Every time I saw the name of the street
that we had worked on, every time I passed it on the highway, I'd see it and I'd get anxious.
So weird, because I was so strong during the whole lawsuit thing. I'm like, why? And so my
point is, you know, you said that there's so much fallout and, and, and, and hurt in y'all's
relationships, et cetera. And y'all's relationships were a lot more complex and challenging than ours
were. I mean, we didn't go to church with these people or anything. Now, some of those people came
to the Lord through us, et cetera. But we, it, that, you know, that's it, our situation didn't,
you know, just look too different than y'all's. It didn't have that layer of Christian complexity
in church and leadership and platform and all of that stuff. But anyway, my point is that I,
I was surprised that the, that the residue that I had to deal with from the lawsuit was the
relationships because during it, I was fine. I was fine with the people. I could love them in my heart.
I could love on them in the, when I saw them in court, I could do all kinds, you know, and I went
and go, went to visit with all of them and check on them and check on their children and see how
they were doing and make sure that they were feeling good. And they, they were just, you know,
very, they were very scared. They were just like, why, you know, is the lawyer going to be okay with
us talking to her? You know, well, because they knew what they were doing. They knew that what
they were doing was wrong. I even wouldn't talk to the guy who betrayed us. So how's your wife
and how's your kids and, and all of that. And, and so, et cetera. So I was very strong,
but afterwards for years, I wasn't. And so anyway, the Lord eventually healed me,
but it was the relationships that were so hard. It was that fallout as a result.
But so I don't know what that y'all's, you know, the issue was, you know, with y'all's situation,
as far as like spiritually, what everything it is that God was doing and that was being done
and accomplished, et cetera. And I hope that, that everybody, you know, including, including
your parents and Bruce having be in that all day, every day, I can't imagine for at least a year.
Right. Yeah. I mean, Bruce, and I think that's where eight months. Yeah. It was, it was about a,
it was a year. So.
almost a year, yeah, almost a year of him just,
and that was when, you know,
panic attacks were emerging, anxiety,
had to call the ambulance one night
because he was having a panic attack.
Strong, steady Bruce, who like.
Yeah.
And so I think that's on his behalf too.
Yeah.
I've struggled because he ate a lot of dirt
and I feel like both spiritual dads and dad,
you know, dad, dad,
for years put a lot of weight on him
because he was, you know, mature.
And it was like they needed him when they needed him
and when it was like useful to them, you know?
Correct.
So that is something too I'm walking through with the Lord
because, you know, I was in my need
to control the narrative.
I don't think I was allowing Bruce at times
to fully express.
And so, and I've stopped doing that.
Like, and I even went to Bruce and I was like,
look, this, I repent.
Like you, you can say whatever you want about people,
you know, like, you know,
cause he would just, it would be,
it would be things like, you know,
the senior pastor would like text him on his birthday
with like a word.
And Bruce was like, I'm not responding.
And I'm like, oh my God, you have to respond.
Like, we're okay.
Like, you know what I mean?
And he's like, no, he doesn't.
He owes him nothing.
Like if he doesn't want to respond,
if he doesn't want to play the game anymore.
And so, so this weekend will be interesting
because I'm hosting a, for my brother's wife,
my sister-in-law is having a baby, miracle baby.
We're very excited, but I'm hosting a shower at the church.
Oh, really?
I know, I know.
Well, part of it was because of the, a couple of factors.
The, it's like almost 30 people.
I didn't really feel like they could fit
in my house comfortably.
And also I was like,
I don't know if I want them all in my house.
And I wasn't able to do it.
Like, I was like, well, maybe we can do it
at a restaurant or something.
And people that I'm hosting,
the people that I'm hosting it with,
like one is my other sister-in-law, Talene,
who's like, you know, she's not a part of any of this
because she came in, my younger brother and her married,
like later in the, she's like, they live in a townhouses.
She couldn't host it.
And then anyway, long story short,
we're hosting it at the church.
And my mom was like, even my mom was like,
wow, that's pretty big of you.
And at the time I was like, I was still in my mode of like,
no, it's fine, it's fine, everything's fine.
And then like, I had this moment of panic where I'm like,
oh my gosh, like I had this, this, I like,
I felt like I was going to be on display, you know, like,
and the Lord's walked me through a lot of it.
I think the last thing with it all is like,
I've kind of come to terms with it, we're going to do it.
I'm doing it, I'm not doing it just because I'm obligated,
I'm doing it because it's the sister I want to be.
Like, that's who I want to be,
as I want to be the sister who like,
can show up for my sister and like,
host a big life event for her, like no matter the cost,
you know, but I like need Bruce to help me
with some of the setup and I know it's affecting him
to, he doesn't want to walk back in that building.
And I told him he doesn't have to, I said, hey, it's fine.
I was like, I'll maybe call one of the brothers
or something, but he was like, no, it's silly.
He's like, I shouldn't be like this.
So now we're having this,
I feel like I've put him in a weird position
that he didn't, you know, like, you know what I'm saying?
So it'll be interesting this weekend, how it all unfolds.
I'm trusting that the Lord, like I just,
for my sake, but also for Bruce's sake,
at some point, I want his name cleared.
I know it's my name too, but like, I feel like
he just ate a lot of dirt.
And-
I'm sure he did.
Yeah.
I'm sure he did.
There's a lot of things that like he,
I know he didn't tell me, like a lot of emails
I got sent to him that he wouldn't let me read.
And, you know, just a lot of conversations and things.
So I have to trust him with the Lord
and trust that like the Lord will repay.
He'll make sure that that happens.
But anyway, it's very,
I know it's gonna sound weird, comforting
to know that you have a understanding
that not many people carry.
Cause until you've been through something like this,
like you just can't relate.
Yeah.
Cause it's like, to your point, it's just like a movie.
Like it's just, and there's, you know,
Pedro is someone too, who kind of had a similar situation.
where it went legal and there was a lot of lies and friends like family involved and
all that stuff.
And so I, you know, it's just, again, it's the Lord's provision like that you would pop
into my DMs.
Well, one, one thing, if it's, if it's helpful as something that you can do on, did you say
it was Saturday that you've got a Saturday is, um, that both you and, and Bruce can do
now.
I was going to say this and then you started saying, Oh, well, Bruce going into, um, is
that you allow yourself, you give yourself over to the Lord to be taken care of like
a child.
Yeah.
Be loved and protected in that situation where you're not having to go in and be the strong
one that has to do the right thing.
That has to, well, you know, I shouldn't be like this and I should be stronger and
I should be whatever you are already what God wants you to be.
You bought war for one thing in spirit, you've already arrived, you're already there.
And then on the, all of the other things, you know, you have journeyed with the Lord
and you are aware and where you are, the Lord is pleased with, and there are things and
responsibility for other people's actions, whether emotionally or whatever that y'all
don't need to carry that y'all don't have to worry about, Oh my goodness, I should be
okay with this.
Why?
That hurt, you know, now, you know, cause y'all aren't talking about life.
Well, you know, I want to do this to them and I'm just talking about, I'm hurt.
I don't want to have to, I don't want to relive all of this.
I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, be in contact with so-and-so I don't like
the fact that they're on the invitation list and they're coming, you know, I don't want
to have to walk down those halls again.
I don't want to have to smell that smell again, you know, but if you just put yourself in
the position of, instead of you choosing to, to, to pick yourself up by your own bootstraps
and be strong and do the quote unquote, godly thing, godly with the lowercase G meaning
that it's going to have sweat in it instead of doing that, instead of being responsible
for yourself, let God be responsible for you and allow yourself to be taken care of this.
If you're like a child, Hey God, I'm going to go in, I'm about to walk into, I'm not
making this meaning this to sound dramatic and just like, Lord, I'm walking into a lion's
den.
You know, it's the phrase that we like to use.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm walking into the lion's den.
And so instead of me being hyper vigilant and me being hyper vigilant in the spirit
of like, I'm going to be strong and I mean, whatever, just remember, you know, that you're,
you know, that you're positioned yourself and choosing that, you know, you're completely
loved and completely accepted and that you're unified with the Lord.
And then the rest of it, let go of trying to be or hold up or be strong enough for,
and then allow God to completely take over the rest where you feel like you're being
carried and through the situation where God is the parent and you get to be the child.
You don't have to be responsible when on Saturday, you know, you don't have to be, there's a
word for it that you don't have to be like this spiritual strength or this pillar.
God says, I just want you to believe me.
Just believe me on Saturday.
You don't have to be something you don't have to be in a position.
You just believe me.
And of course, if you believe him, well then you're a son of God and that's who you walk
in as, you know, as opposed to trying to, you know, remember on our own with all of
our sweat and all of our remembrance and all of our, you know, you know, with our mind,
trying to, trying to remember and be strong.
So just allow it to come.
And I know that that's hard because then you're truly making yourself vulnerable because you're
not protecting yourself in the way that not only had we told ourselves that it was Godly
and that God would like us to do for him is to be strong and be spiritually mature, but
also that we have always been, I always believed it would protect us, you know, basically that
self-protection from something that someone could do or say, or a trigger that we couldn't
have that we didn't even know that we could be triggered by that smell anymore.
You know, you know, or we thought about that.
We thought about having thought about the fact that, oh my goodness, I was going to
be in the building, but on my word, I didn't think about the fact that when I look at the
carpet, there's all those memories, or I didn't think about the smell or whatever, but, and
those are things that can hit us.
And so we're subconsciously trying to protect ourselves ahead of time for going into this
thing.
And if you let yourself vulnerably be, be so vulnerable, the Lord that you're actually
exposed and you allow the Lord to protect you in your exposure, that is risking yourself
for disappointment, which.
It's that you are really having faith because it's God.
I'm risking myself very vulnerably that you are who you say that you are and
that you're going to protect me.
So I'm not going to protect myself, not going to protect myself.
And that's really me trusting you because I am in not protecting myself.
I'm making space for you to protect me.
If I protect myself, I don't make space for you to protect me.
So I'm going to put myself in a position for you to show up.
Like you say that you do.
This isn't a test Lord.
This is just me acting on what you said.
Scary, but well, that's one of the things that y'all could do in stepping
out, not only in faith, but that the really exciting thing is that all of
this stuff is coming up, you know, just two months after, after, uh, in
fact, not that this might be, this might work out, but you might want to
look at the date of Saturday and compare it to the date where everything
was final two months ago, see sometimes that there's like some way that God
wants to talk to you of like the difference in dates, like the number
of days or the date itself or whatever.
The reason I say that is literally God brought all this up and had me walk
into the building literally eight years to the day from the time I,
I couldn't make that up.
I was like, in fact, I went to sleep in the hotel that God had put me in during
COVID, I was supposed to meet Chris Black, be at that hotel.
We were supposed to do a conference together.
Then COVID hit literally like that week.
And all of a sudden the whole world shut down.
So the conference was canceled, but the hotel was still open.
So basically no one was in the hotel, but me who was one of the
few people who lived in town, hotel room.
I mean, how weird is that?
Even though it could have driven to the conference every day.
So I go to the hotel, I was just devastated.
I was like, Lord, Chris and I were supposed to be here to hang out.
We were supposed to go to this conference.
Everything's canceled.
I am in this hotel in my own city alone, right down the street on the
same street that had always triggered me.
I am right down the street, just a few blocks from, I mean,
indeed the DFW Metroplex is huge.
Just a few blocks from that, that location where I had gone to for years
and it hadn't been back to since, you know, et cetera, and I'm like, Lord,
what are this going on?
I cried.
I was just felt alone.
I felt abandoned.
I just, I mean, oh my word.
I don't know how to express the hurt and like what exactly was going on.
Just it, I just hurt.
I hurt so bad that you know what you do when you hurt bad as an
adult, you just want to take a nap.
So I took a nap in the middle.
Well, here's what's cool.
I woke up from the nap and I had gone to sleep, you know, with all of these
accusations and these heart cries out to the Lord and, you know, I'm like, Lord,
I'm in the same, I'm in this like right down the street.
I feel the atmosphere, Lord.
I'm triggered.
Anyway, went to sleep.
As soon as I woke up, God said, what is today?
Oh, I don't know.
It's it's March 19th.
He's like, exactly what day is that?
And I thought that's the day that I was told that I needed to go back to my
desk and put everything into a box and be escorted out of the building.
It was like for right down here.
I was like, that's wild.
And he was like, and how many years ago?
It was like eight, which of course is new beginnings.
I didn't put myself there anyway.
So I knew, and then I was supposed to check out on the 21st, which is the day
that I sent in the email to them saying I resign because technically
I didn't work for them.
I worked for my boss, but I was on their payroll.
So legally I had to have some written thing written saying that
that's what the Lord did for me.
Point is I would, I didn't know he was meaning to bring everything to a
close and bring, um, what's the word for that?
It will just bring closure to it.
It's spiritual closure where I was finally released.
So my point is that whether or not y'all have that, God ends up doing
that whole date thing, you know, with y'all, maybe that Saturday, if
that's the first time that y'all are going to be going to the building
since, you know, who knows when, since maybe the time that, uh, that they
got up and the pastor said that, and y'all just felt, okay, we feel the
release that you'd get up and walk out.
So I didn't know the last time that y'all were there, but it's possible
that God is using this opportunity.
That feels like it's so painful as something that, that God is
bringing about to bring you closure.
So anyway, so you can look forward to it with anticipation that instead of it
being a painful thing, God's like, I'm finally spiritually cutting the,
cutting the ties for you because I want to preserve you.
And I don't want you to be connected to that situation anymore or whatever.
It happens to be two months after everything's finally final.
And, um, and then you can come in because the only way that you can.
How would I put that?
A lot of times the way that God does it, where we, um, kind of like what I was talking about,
like with death is you have to go through it and in order to conquer it is, is there's
a way in which you have to have some kind of a connection with it again, in order to,
as Chris Blackaby refers to it, write a new record.
Yeah.
But last time I believed this, this time I'm choosing this challenging because he refers
to it as breaking the arm, but in the same place again, because it didn't set right the
first time.
So it has to be rebroken and it feels like pain and really God's like, yeah, but it wasn't
actually healed this time there's full closure.
And so if that's what God's doing, which is what I believe he is, then it means that there
is a way in which God is, um, keeping, do you say it's preserving y'all's purity, preserving
your, um, uh, I don't know, basically it's like defending you and protecting you, protecting
you from any, any spiritual connections anymore that just no longer get to have the privilege
of a right to you, including, including other people based on the choices that they made.
And sure.
We don't, I don't want to make a judgment call.
I don't know, you know, if they were all just trying to do the best they could.
And if whatever my point is that the, and so the God may just like be separating everybody
because he's like, Hey, y'all season is over, but there I'm sure that there are certain
aspects that were not appropriate.
And, and, um, and so God wants to completely sever all of that, wrap everything up so that
y'all can be free and you no longer have that tether that is slowing you down or hindering
you from being able to advance in other ways.
And um, so in other words, I think that Saturday, even though it seems like it's all for your
sister-in-law, I think it's, it's for y'all.
You landed on some place that you would have never done voluntarily, except for the fact
that you were offering to do this for your sister-in-law and you realize, well, it doesn't
all fit in my house and it doesn't all fit in my co-host house.
So we're going to have to do this.
I mean, it's not your choice, but God can orchestrate stuff like that to put us back
in a situation in order to get you final healing, because it's like, nothing's allowed to be
all that stuff is like this, these, I don't know, these, these weights that you no longer
that aren't, that were never yours by God to be responsible for or to carry.
And they no longer get to have access to you and they no longer are any, anybody else's
in road spiritually into you because they've lost that privilege or anything spiritually
has lost that privilege to you.
So when it feels like I'm going back to the lion's den, they're the ones quote-unquote
in power.
This is their turf, but see you going back on their turf is, is you being and being stronger
in the Lord where he's taking care of you now, you know, when you're just a child and
he's very vulnerably open to him and he's like, okay, now watch what I'll do is free
is a gift to y'all.
It's him honestly, taking care of y'all, even though it feels painful.
I think that that's what Saturday is.
That's amazing.
Well, I will, I will definitely update you.
Yes, please.
Very excited.
I'm so emotionally invested now.
I know.
I mean, it's, it's pretty incredible.
I just think the Lord is like, I so believe I so trust his timing.
Like there's just, there's been so much proof, you know, he's so proved himself to be faithful
in so many ways.
And I mean, just the, even the fact that this is happening while I'm in this incubator called
the rest intensive, right?
Like it's, it's amazing.
So I'm glad that it all worked out.
And then of course, you know, I greatly appreciate, you know, you offering to be there for me
as well.
And me getting to be part of your group that to me is just like the Lord's timing as well,
because you know how long I've been holding some of these things before the Lord, like,
Lord, I don't understand Lord.
I want clarity.
And then the questions that y'all bring up the spirit that y'all carry, you know, provides
me a space where I don't have to, where I don't have to be the strong one.
Yeah.
I hope that you body, you know what I'm saying?
And so it allows stuff to come up and me to question things and me to be vulnerable because
I don't have to have the answers and I don't have to, like I said, be the strong one.
And so I appreciate you being that for me as well.
The timing is just really perfect.
I'm very grateful to the Lord that he orchestrated everything.
We're just going through a lot, Lindsay, all at the same time.
Isn't that amazing?
Great provision.
It's such a gift because you, you get me, you know what I mean?
Like there's so much that we're doing that is similar and being able.
to be in a space of like, look, there is a public side of my ministry that is extremely authentic
and it is the right fruit of my life. And there's also things happening privately where I'm
overcoming still in other areas. And this part is very difficult to navigate with the right people
because it can easily be misunderstood and twisted and used against you. And I think that's
the safety. Of course, we find our deep sense of safety with the Lord. I just think He's so kind
that He gifts us with people that can hold the weight. I'm glad that I can be that for you too.
Because it's really a joy. I mean, my dream is to help. You are an example that I used because
someone asked me at the beginning of this year, what would you be wanting to do at the end of
the year if you could do anything? And I was like, there are people, like my friend Ashley,
who carries such a depth of revelation that if I could help her in any way with the digital side
of her ministry and help, like, it would be a dream. I literally said that. I need that much
help. Well, it's not, it's just, it's just you, like, when you're carrying the amount of revelation
you're carrying, you shouldn't have to also be carrying this depth of like, that's what I think.
I mean, seriously, I just, I feel like, I don't feel like it's, it's too much. So,
and I think, unfortunately, a lot of people who carry this amount of revelation don't always get
part, like, they, they don't always make that trust connection, right? To like, true. Because
it's hard. It's hard to, it's hard to navigate. Like, to your point, you've had a lot of situations
with people like, oh, just come on my platform. Yeah. It's just, and like, that doesn't feel
right. You know, things like that. So I think they get a lot of offers, but it's hard to navigate,
like, what's helpful. Like, what's actually going to be helpful to what I'm doing and not
hindering what I'm doing. So I get that. Well, I appreciate you so much. And, and so, like I said,
I'm really grateful that the Lord has just coordinated everything, you know, in such a way,
of course he always does, but it's exciting when you get to actually realize it while it's happening
and then you can be extra grateful. I know you're like seeing certain anecdotes. I feel that way. I do.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. I know we went like, yeah, you gave me three
hours the other day. You were so sweet. I was like, that woman has to get up with a baby.
I was so energized. I felt like the Lord just held me. So I, there was nothing there was, I,
I was, I gladly will do it again. For sure. Sweet. I appreciate it. Well, thank you friend.
It, it meant a lot to me and it really was very, very helpful. I felt that also by doing that and
being that vulnerable and saying things that were very hard for me to say or admit or, you know,
whatever, um, I felt the next day, I thought, you know, even as hard as it is for me to like,
go back in my memory and think, Oh my word, I can't believe, you know, I can't hide anymore.
But I thought, you know, I know what the Lord is doing. I already feel a shift.
And seriously, I've been able to like make some, uh, I've been able to stand a bit more and
quote unquote, own myself a little bit more. So that's been good. So it's like, you know,
how it is when you bring something out into the light, it breaks a bit of the power that it had
over you. And so anyway, so, um, it was, uh, it was, uh, very helpful. And just having been able
to express some of those things, I knew that the Lord was honoring that because I was starting to
feel the power of the things breaking off of me. And so I was like, okay, so there's, you know,
I'm starting to already see fruits of something that just felt like so much exposure. And, you
know, you kind of wondering, you know, is, is it really necessary to like say all of those things,
or is that just kind of like a, it sounds really weird, but almost like a guilty pleasure. Like
and that's what I felt like when I was talking to you about stuff. It's like, sometimes it's weird
to sit sound, you know, or tell everybody how, you know, about rest and whatever. And sometimes
it's kind of like, I want to get to do, I, there's a bit of resentment in me. I'm like, I want to get
to complain. Sometimes I want to get to be told that I don't deserve to be treated like that,
or talk to like that, or I don't know, whatever issue I'm having, you know, out in the world,
you know, and as opposed to, I just need to be the strong one and I need to shift into
rest and I just need to, whatever. Sometimes I want to be a kid and eat sugar. That's not good
for me just because I want a bit of comfort. I want to like lay down, you know, the, just
being an adult for a minute, you know, and talking about in the spirit, you know,
and I'm not sure how healthy all that is. And if Jesus would do it,
I do know that that that's what the, how I kind of like saw it.
So anyway, um, I, I just, the reason I'm going on about that is that I just,
I just want you to know it really, it, I greatly appreciate it.
Thank you.
Cause it's sometimes it's not fun to have to sit and listen to somebody
like just talk about stuff, especially if they're struggling to the point
where it can sound like they're exposing things to the point of like, just
being complaining without any like fruit or, or, um, a resolution or anything.
And I just wanted you to know that it really is as messy as it probably may
have looked or sounded, or it felt like to me, I don't know if it came across
like that to you, but it felt like that to me, um, that, that God is using it.
And it just, it just at least made me feel important that I could be heard.
That I could just be listened to and allowed to be messy or talk about
whatever it is that I wanted and not be judged or thought less of.
So appreciate.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm so glad I could provide that.
Cause I understand that need.
I understand needing that too.
So, and you've been that for me, of course, like more today than ever
before, because I was just like telling you stuff that I don't
think I would admit to myself.
Well, like you said the other day, you said, you know, I felt like the
Lord's inviting us to a deeper friendship and I for one say yes.
So it's always exciting when it's mutual, so to me, so I'm so glad.
Well, I love you friend.
And, um, I will keep you updated on.
Cause I don't, I don't think we're meeting and until after it, but
I'll, I'll keep you updated on how it goes.
I might be texting.
I might be live texting you.
I would love that.
I'd love to be part of what's happening now.
So we're meeting Thursday.
I don't know if you can make Thursday, but we're meeting today.
Oh, we're meeting twice until then.
Oh, we must be.
I yeah.
Cause so I was able to, I went ahead and booked three
transformation tests because I couldn't fit a fourth one in where it
wouldn't been like back to back to back.
And so, but it's okay.
Cause this one was like, well, that's fine.
You know, we could also be after, I mean, because we're just friends.
We just meet because we want to, but no, what I meant was there's the rest
groups, the rest group on tomorrow night.
And then there's the Thursday night.
And then I don't know if we're going to meet.
I, I haven't looked far enough ahead of my calendar to know
who I'm meeting with when.
But my point, but I know what you were saying.
You were like, you didn't know if that, I mean that I'll look forward
to hearing about it after the fact.
Yeah.
Cause next Wednesday will be our next transformation session, but I'll
probably, I'll definitely be texting you about, okay.
Yes, please do.
Yeah.
Cause so I got, I got texts.
I can't text anyone else.
Oh, and another gift is the fact that y'all had Hannah since then.
And so that gives y'all a topic to avoid that other P I mean, meaning like other
people that gives you a topic to talk about that allows you to avoid all of this
other stuff, gives something for other people to talk about, gives a way to
engage where people can be sweet and love on y'all without y'all even having to do
that.
So you can show pictures and unless she's going to be there.
I don't know.
She's going to be, I don't think, I mean, Bruce literally today was like, I would
be okay if Hannah never walked in that building.
Oh, well, I'm really thinking that actually, I was just like, I wonder if
they're like, prefer to just like not keep her in that building would not have
her go in that building at all.
But my point is that's another gift from the Lord is like, I like this cool life
topic.
That's very safe, especially with all the women and being at about a baby
shower to talk about.
That's great.
Good.
That is true.
I think I've, and since talking, even just you bring, I'm going to look at the
dates because I think it's very, I think the Lord definitely communicates in those
ways.
And so, yeah, I'm, there's an anticipation.
I know that there's like a lot of, you know, that has to happen between now and
then, but I do choose anticipation over anxiety, you know, because, because of who
the Lord is to me, not because of who I have to be for the Lord or anyone else.
Yeah.
And so you can release the outcome to him, including all of the healing.
Or any of what we could think of as like potential hurt.
It's just like all of that outcome to him.
Like, as opposed to, I want to do this well.
Yeah.
Doing the well thing, giving that up to him, which is what I was talking to
Cicely about the other day.
Cause I was trying to figure out like, Lord, how do I, how do I talk to her?
How do I get across what it is that she needs, that she can grab a hold of and
unders and understand and like actually help her get progress.
And I was like, okay, let go of trying to do good anymore.
Yeah, because I finally was realizing, oh, she couldn't reconcile them.
And I finally had to let go of that at one point because I
couldn't get him to reconcile.
And so I thought, okay, well, I can tell her you can be that extreme.
Give it to the Lord for him.
to be good for you, which he already is anyway,
cause he's our righteousness.
But my point is like, I thought maybe if I word it like that,
she'll understand and she'll be able to figure out how to make
a choice of something.
Cause she's struggling, I think, and how to based on all of her
posts, she's the way she's talking about is like struggling
to understand how do you make a choice?
How do you give this up, et cetera.
So anyway, my point is that's how I thought of like saying
that, you know, even for you, you can even give up trying
to do it.
Well, that's really good.
Give up to the Lord, the responsibility of going through
Saturday.
Well, yeah, that's, I mean, it's powerful.
It's like a new day.
Everything's greater and better.
Well, I'll let you go.
It's good to visit with you.
It was good to visit with you too.
Thank you so much for just your life-giving encouragement.
And, um, I really, really appreciate it.
It's been very helpful in trusting me with your heart.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You girl, you've, you've seen, you've seen the worst, literally
started a call with like, people just really pissed me off.
I loved it.
I was like, wow, that's great.
Everyone's out celebrating the witches and Halloween.
Oh, that's right.
That's right.
I, tomorrow at November 1st is always one of my favorite
days of the year because it's the day after the Halloween
and it's the longest I can, it's the furthest away in a
year that I can be.
Isn't that funny?
I look today with it's my first date, but go ahead.
You guys had a first date on Halloween.
Yeah.
I love that.
We didn't mean to, because we started dating on October the 30th, but
our first date was October 31st.
Well, it's reformation day.
So there's that.
That is right.
That's what, that's what Ken Fish reminded me of the other day.
He's like, Ashley, it's reformation day.
I'm like, that's what I'm clinging to.
But anyway, where were you going to stay?
I was just saying like, there's, there's, I don't think, I don't
know how like much you scroll on the internet, but I feel like
there's been so much conversation.
Like it feels this year more than ever of Christians debating whether or
not you should be allowed to celebrate Halloween and I'm just like, what is
the, like, why is this not obvious to people?
I know.
Well, uh, this guy named Jeremiah Johnson, someone posted something
that he wrote, um, and, uh, he's a.
I know who he is.
Okay.
I didn't see the post, but I know who he is.
Yeah.
So if someone, uh, posted screenshots as something that he'd posted and he was
just saying, I just, it's like, I can't believe that everyone gave that get,
everyone has been giving Satan all of the attention for 31 days by arguing.
He's arguing about whether or not Halloween is like, it's
also pastor appreciation month.
He's like, so have you done any of the good things?
Have you talked about you to do that?
Instead you focused on, you actually focused now, not that he worded
it like, like this, but we feed that, which we focus on, we make it stronger.
We draw more attention to it as opposed, same thing with like, uh, what's his
name and Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman and I were just having this
conversation a couple of days ago.
I love two interviews that they were in because they both say someone
asked him something about, well, what do you think about the whole, you
know, about how racist America is right now and dah, dah, dah, and the fact
that they're, I don't remember how they worded the question, but both
Washington and Morgan Freeman said, look, if it really is not an
issue, you'll stop talking about it.
You won't, you won't like say, oh, well, you know, if it, it shouldn't be an issue.
It shouldn't be an issue.
You know, we're, we're equal.
They both said, if we're equal, then you don't talk about it
because you consider it equal.
It's only if you don't consider it equal that you keep talking about it.
They're like, they're both like, stop talking about it.
I was like, exactly.
So it's kind of like the same thing with Halloween.
If we want to, if it gives the most powerful way to combat the enemy is to
neutralize it, not to fight it so much.
So just like stop paying any attention.
Like just move on.
That's right.
It doesn't mean more Christian endorsement.
That's right.
Can you imagine how many times Halloween has increased in like the amount of, um,
what, whatever, like added to the statistics because the Christians have
been putting it had putting the word Halloween, it's like, don't like stay.
I, you know, it's like, it's everything that we're talking about.
Okay.
And messengers is like, guys, this is like, you have so much influence
here and you're just misusing it.
Like, so
put your energy in a different direction.
So, yeah, well, it's good to visit with you.
I'll let you go.
I know you've got to get up early.
Yes.
Get some rest tonight.
Sweet sleep.
And we'll talk soon.
Okay.
Bye.