Hey everyone, welcome to Empower You Podcast and I have Amy Stevens with me here this morning
and we are so excited to be together because for the reality of what's happening, especially
since COVID and where we are today, Amy and I have been kind of thrown together by the
sovereignty of God.
We knew each other just a little bit, maybe 15 years ago or something, right?
Yeah.
I think so.
Yeah.
And you were, were you with Focus on the Family then?
I don't think so.
I had left by then I was in elected office.
I think I was a legislator then.
Okay.
So what brought Amy and I together is because of the vision we have at the road at Chapel
Hills, which is a church I pastor in Colorado Springs of a kingdom of God revolution that
is really the genesis of why we started Empower You also.
And it's this idea, you that are watching and a part of this and watch it every week
is to empower you to make a difference in the world and to make changes in your community
for the kingdom of God.
And so Amy was doing that and you've been doing that for such a long time.
Here's what I'm interested in to begin with, Amy, is you're a wife, how long have you guys
been, how you've been married or on 39, 39 years and have a son.
We have one son.
Yeah.
31 got to be 31.
So let's go back in time.
How did you, how'd you get started in public policy and caring about those kinds of things?
It started in Los Angeles.
And I was hired by Focus on the Family actually when they were going to move here.
So with the understanding we would move here and the life that we had in Los Angeles, we
felt wasn't conducive to raising a child.
It was hard.
We were commuting an hour each way every day, LA traffic.
And so we went, I joined Focus and moved here and I worked in a variety of, I worked in
public policy and I worked a lot on a choice in education and parental rights and what
we're going on in schools just like we are today.
I feel in so many ways we're back at the nineties.
We've somehow come a full circle in engagement and all those things.
But anyway, we, I would travel for Dr. Dobson at certain legislatures to educate on a number
of issues, whether it was California or Colorado.
And when I would be in at the Capitol in Colorado, I always had this sense that at some point,
sometime I would be in office.
I didn't know when, didn't have any idea.
I just had this overwhelming sense.
And so I left Focus in 2002, we, I'd been there 10 years and I ran for office in 2005,
was elected in 2006, which to me was amazing.
In that time, really, my son was in those crazy intermediate years of 11 to 13, really
felt like he needed to be grounded.
It's probably the best thing I ever did.
Because then when I got into office, he really was ready.
He was playing baseball.
You and I talk a lot about the sports of that.
He was in baseball, he, you know, could be a lot more self-governing and it allowed me
to be able to serve in the legislature.
So that was, that was a really, that was good.
And I was in the legislature for eight years, became the house majority leader, was the
last Republican, sadly, that we've seen since 2012.
My goodness, I didn't realize it had been that long.
Yeah, it's been a while.
It's been quite a while.
And kind of, I think what brought you and me together is during the COVID time, particularly
is the further and further split we've seen, you know, within party politics.
When I was in, I really worked a lot across the aisle.
I really made a lot of friends across the aisle to run bills together for the good of
Colorado, like the School Safety Act or protecting seniors from, you know, financial, you know,
trickery and things like that.
I mean, I would work with people to get those things done.
But we have a far different legislature, even in a short time.
And we have a far different society today, you know, than we did when we moved here.
We're just in very different days.
Why is that?
I mean, why do you think we're so divided?
I think it's a number of things.
I think there are disappointments along the way.
I think one thing I learned in office is you will never please everybody.
And I don't care.
You know, it's so funny.
We talk about the who's a hundred.
100% with us, right? You know, on some sort of whatever line that is, the line always
moves, right? And I think that we have a lot of people who say, hey, I'm disillusioned
with government. I'm disillusioned with each other. I'm disillusioned in what I thought
was true. I'm disillusioned. And I think COVID brought on with this rapidness, which I saw
when I was in Washington, D.C., even more. It's not talked about a lot, but I'm going
to share it here. In the administration, you know, when you're met with the National Guard
as part of—
So, let's go back a second and tell everybody that Amy was in the Trump administration and
HHS, right?
Yes, at HHS.
So, she was there when January 6th occurred.
Yes, I was actually on a phone call.
That's what you're referring to, right?
Since the No One Raids My Home, I was actually on—I worked for the Administration for Children
and Families. That is the largest grant-making organization in terms of children at risk,
Head Start, early childhood, child welfare. I worked a lot with governors on foster adoption,
because my boss, the assistant secretary, had a real heart for foster children and particularly
for youth aging out. So, that's what we worked in. And I was a political appointee
and saw very quickly how federal, gov, and government doesn't work, simply because political
appointees who are there to get something done really fight careers who've been there
forever, who kind of fold their arms and say, well, we'll just—you know, we'll see if
we want to do that.
I think particularly because of the Trump administration had its own challenges. But
in that time, when I was there, we got to do a lot of good work on behalf of foster
kids, at-risk youth, a number of things that I care about, that I worked at many years
ago at FOCUS, and particularly in the legislature. I dealt with a lot of that.
The interesting thing was, when the transition was happening in January, right before Biden
took office and I had to return my federal computer and my phone, you know, I was greeted
by the National Guard, who promptly told me, no, you can't get into your offices. You
can park on the street. You can—it was just shocking to me that normally we talk about
a peaceful transition, and this was anything but. You had a lot of frightened employees,
a lot of people who had no idea what was going on. So, basically, I said, well, here's my
computer. I turned my computer in, said I'll keep my phone until I get an envelope. But
it was just a very weird time. And I think I knew then that we were going to be in for
some—that America had changed in a very profound and significant way. And it made
me wonder, will we get it back? And I don't know if you ever get anything back. We just—now
you and I are working on ground level with our congregants on what will our lives look
like? How are we going to empower each other? How are we going to trust as we move forward,
right?
So, again, what Amy's referencing for you that are listening is that I was not—I've
always dabbled a little bit in the political process, Amy, as a pastor. But when COVID
happened, this would be April, May 2020, and the government, polis, and also nationally—this
is kind of across the board—churches were told to shut down, then businesses were told
to shut down. Something in me just really kind of caught fire. And I just did not like
it, but I also didn't trust it. So, we had a team at The Road that began to do research
about COVID. And we began to look to professionals that were being censored by the media. And
we began to see a trend. We began to see a pattern of anything that went against Big
Gov, Big Pharma, and Big Tech got censored. So, I found myself actually moving toward
the censored ones to say, what are they afraid of? There must be something they're afraid
of. The Road kind of became involved in engagement on a whole other level. And so, that was not
something that was part of the strategic plan at all. It was more like we were reacting.
It felt like we were forced into a corner, and we had to make some decisions.
Yeah. I mean, take church out in San Jose, where they were fined, right? Millions. Because
they said, no, we're going to stay open. Our congregants need faith. Our congregants
need to hear.
We, those were very, and still are, I think, interesting times.
Those I remember Cheon and a few others out in California sued and won because they said,
look, we are an essential biz.
We're essential to the health and welfare of many of the people of California.
Same here in Colorado Springs.
You said we're essential to the health and welfare.
And that is actually what attracted me to the church is I was looking around to say,
who's saying anything?
I mean, who's open, first of all?
Second of all, what are we doing about this?
Because you remember, I think we had, we have a lot of Air Force Academy cadets that were
wondering, do I, do I get, you know, do I get the vaccine?
I mean, I almost found it sovereign.
I actually was going to become vaccinated.
I was, I was off to actually go get it.
But the day that I did was the day they pulled the vaccine that I was supposed to go get.
So that didn't happen.
And then I learned more, read more and went, no, just don't think of it this time, right?
That's a whole nother issue that occurred is that, so then we're involved in the issue
of staying open.
And I was fortunate enough to know and rally 25 pastors to sign an op-ed that I wrote to
open up Colorado Springs.
That was our focus.
And then I met with the county commissioners and we made a declaration as a Freedom City,
Freedom County that, and all those all were kind of momentum building.
So we were seeing a lot of success as far as at least success from the perspective of
symbols.
I think it was symbolic because the county commissioners couldn't, couldn't go or didn't
feel they could go against polis, Governor polis on things, but they certainly made a
declaration that I think, and this is the way I framed it with them.
And I think, and I'm not, I don't want to toot my own horn too much because I think
they were already in line.
They were already thinking this, but we agreed in principle, there could be stores and companies
that would open by virtue of knowing that the county commissioners and some of the city
officials would support them.
They didn't feel so alone.
That's the way I felt too.
When I had pastors come here and we talked about opening up together.
And so, so here we are.
So we're in the midst of all of this stuff, you're, um, so, so what did you do after I
came with the Trump administration?
I came back to Colorado Springs and I left a lot of my goods back in Virginia in storage
and basically came back.
And it was so interesting, um, because I work with a number of national clients, uh, that
I had been in government affairs and people knew that I was back.
And so I, uh, had some clients that I was working for.
Uh, but I think how you and I met through that is w we started going to this church,
but we were, you and I would talk about this great divide, this anger, right?
That had been, that had been emerging and, uh, within, uh, I think it was, was it the
congressional race?
We had a number of races that were going on where people, even within our own church,
were, are, were very divided over.
And uh, if you, you know, we found ourselves in the midst of this, this kind of, uh, if
we didn't agree on who should be the congressman or who should be, we just had one set, you
know, what about the mayoral race?
We've had a lot of different things, people all over the map.
And we started talking about what is that doing even within the body of Christ, right?
When we disagree, how would we handle ourselves?
What would we do?
And that's when I think you said, this is a lot, we have a lot going on.
I think we, we have to look at how do we engage or what are we going to do to engage?
That's how we got.
So, so what happened was I was kind of spearheading everything and a few others, there were a
few others, but I didn't know of anybody yet that I felt like had the expertise, um, or
administrative organizational abilities to sort of organize the organism that was
kind of moving out and lots of stuff was happening.
So that's when you and I started to talk and I knew only a little bit about your background.
So you kind of informed me and I felt like, I felt pretty strongly the Lord was saying
that you should come in and become a part of, for lack of a better word, we've kind
of called it the roads, public policy.
And I think you said community engagement.
Right?
Right.
Isn't that the title that we kind of...
It is.
We talked about engagement and how do you engage.
Right.
I remember at the time we had a number of people actually I think confronting county
commissioners.
You have the issue of voter integrity.
We could probably go all day on that whole thing, but no matter where you are, we talked
about how do you approach people.
I've had it happen.
How do people approach you when you're in office?
A lot, I would attribute reason that I could influence was because I have a lot of good
relationships, right?
Relationship is the key.
We began to talk about how do we help others create relationship where they can get an
open door, where we can at least be heard or as opposed, I think, to saying in a microphone
to a commissioner who's sitting, you know, the gates...
That you have no relationship with.
Yeah.
That you have no relationship with.
Then you just lambast him.
Right.
Exactly.
I just don't think that's helpful.
No.
It doesn't, I think, speak the language, I guess, in terms of, you know, you and I,
we believe in scripture, but I don't think used in an inappropriate way, particularly
as you're talking to someone you really don't know, is probably terribly effective.
I think sometimes it's better almost behind the scenes to approach someone and say, we're
thinking about this.
Where are you on this?
You'll know pretty quick.
There's a time to be firm, obviously, and there's a time also to go, hmm, time may tell
on this, right?
Everything is about timing, relationship, and how we deal with it.
Now, you didn't have time, I think, when you went to the county commissioners and said,
we need to be open during COVID.
But there are other issues where we can take a look at what our state government does.
How will that affect our county?
How will that affect our city?
What role do we play in that?
How does it affect us?
How do we approach this issue, right?
And I think those are the things, hopefully, that we begin to work with in our congregation,
educate.
I think people are exhausted.
I think in general, they're disillusioned, they're exhausted.
You and I, very often we talk about, someone will send me an article or someone sends me
something and it's like, the World Economic Forum's at my door, and there's another pandemic
that's going to come.
And I just go, well, you know what, I have no control over that today.
I might be able to call my congressman, I'm sure they already know about it, but I can't.
That's an overwhelming, and I think so much of the news, so overwhelming.
You're just trying to raise your family.
You're just trying to get your kids off to school.
You're just trying to get your son in a good spot, right?
So, we're talking two different things, I think, and what I would prefer to do, and
I heard it as I drove back, I was listening to a radio show.
Some woman in Nebraska said, I think she was talking to Rush Limbaugh, right before he
passed away, and she said, you know, I'm sitting here in my place in Nebraska, but there's
one thing, maybe two, the big, important, little things that I could do every day to
make a difference.
And it really struck me, because I think that's truth.
You and I, in our locus of control, you and I, there are a few things we could do, right?
I don't know when this airs, we have the whole Bud Light debacle, we have the Target, whatever,
people, stocks are falling, but one thing I guess I could do is wake up in the morning
and write the CEO of Target and say, hey, normally I spend $600 a month, but myself
and five of my other friends, we're only spending $200, and that's an X amount of loss.
We're so sorry, we hope Target may reconsider their policies, right?
I would tack those down as things one could perhaps do every day, just to make a little
difference.
You're not blowing up the world, but you are just in your own way, right?
How am I engaged in my kid, what my kid for the sex ed class, you know, every year I get
calls from parents, what do I do?
What do I say?
Well, let's look at the papers coming home with your kid, why don't you ask?
What is the curriculum?
What values are those modeled?
So good.
I mean, that's what we've talked about at the Reddit a lot, is this idea of a Kingdom
God revolution through each person in the arena that God's placed them in, versus getting
so amped up over national politics, international politics, WDF, all that, I mean, those are
podcasts you can listen to, but the part that really matters is God's placed you sovereignly
in this city, at this time in history, who are the contacts, who are the relationships
that are around you that you can make an impact on with what the desires of your heart are?
Because you were just with Courtney in a meeting that I walked in on today, and she's very,
very amped up.
animated, committed, and has vision for the education process, but 90% of the people at
the road are not involved in that.
But then we have someone else who just passionately cares about health care and big farming and
the influence that it's having on us and environmental issues and how that's affecting us and our
health and our wellbeing.
So I feel like that when we talk about public policy, and I would say this to any pastor
who's listening, I say this to any person who is in a church somewhere, it's possible
that a church can actually make a difference by engaging in the processes and engaging
with the people that are already in their vicinity.
It's not even extra work.
It's just a matter of opening your eyes and seeing what the father's doing, because the
father's doing something there and we might be missing it.
So if you care about those things, then look around and stay in step with the spirit in
that and be careful.
Be super careful about being overly fearful because of the national stuff, because that
is...
And then the reason you get fearful, this is my opinion, the reason you get fearful
and the reason you become so anxious and depressed over what's happening in America is because
you have really no control.
So don't worry so much about what you...
You can pray about it.
Sure.
Don't totally pray about it.
Yes.
But where can you have control now and then step out in the power of the Holy Spirit and
make a difference there?
That's what you've been doing.
That's right.
That's what you've been trying to do at the road.
That's right.
You know, it started really years and years ago for me.
I had heard there was some, there was an opening on the human relations commission and I just
had moved here and I got appointed.
I, you know, it was quite an interesting experience and I met a number of people who
today I still am in relationship with from that experience, right?
I think, you know, I hear from people saying, oh, we need more people at school board meetings.
And you know, my husband Ron was saying, well, what would it be if I just showed up, sat
and listened, right?
Our son was in a district here.
You know, you would support your school board member, right?
It's not that you're being required to stand up and say some will, you may be moved to,
that's fine.
But some to just be there, to be a presence, I mean, we, we need people everywhere and
I think we underestimate the, the ways in which we probably could make a difference.
Now you and I, we're not, we may not agree on everything.
In fact, I can probably assure you of that, right?
You and I, we, we may, we, we may be in the 90 something percentile hope, you know, but
if we're not, then, then can we still work?
Can we still move forward?
Can we still, what can we do?
And I think that's where we find ourselves.
Well, I think it's hard for Christians.
I'll just say, I think it's really difficult for Christians to be, to engage culture and
community with a different, you need a different kind of mindset.
And I say that because I believe you can have deep level convictions, but you're now, you're
now entering into an arena where there's a lot of disagreement and there's a lot of
different opinions.
And I think in most churches, there's, there's a semblance of unity.
It may not be deeply rooted, but like at the road, I know it is, it's deeply rooted theologically,
it's deeply rooted in the DNA of our church.
And we kind of have these values and vision of the same, but as soon as you walk into
a school board meeting, as soon as you walk into a school, there's a lot of different
viewpoints.
And I think that is very uncomfortable for people and they don't know what to do.
And to be able to, I mean, I think one of the greatest things you can learn to do is
active listen, to be able to learn how to listen to others without necessarily agreeing.
Is it possible to learn how to listen without agreeing where that person feels heard?
That's what I don't see.
That's the, that's probably one of the biggest things for me, Amy, that wore me out was seeing
people so entrenched in only their viewpoint that there was no room to hear the other side.
And thus there was no bridges for there to be any kind of a compromise or any kind of
a communication where we might start working towards some, some common goals.
Well, you and I find ourselves in some very interesting today situations with, and let's
just be, we can say in political parties.
So I was at the Capitol for one of my clients on a piece of legislation and it stunned me
how different the Capitol is right now because to disagree, many of, you know, the Democrat
party that is.
in huge control right now in Colorado. I mean, they're so in the majority, it almost seems
impossible. But, again, I've been in similar worse situations. But now on the House floor,
what I'm seeing and I'm deeply concerned about is that if we disagree, then yours is hate.
In other words, disagreement equals hate. And that's not where civilized discussion goes.
And so when I elect someone to represent me out of my district, I expect him to have the
free speech right when we're debating bills on the House floor, to be able to say his piece
on behalf of me and many other constituents in that district. That didn't happen this past
session. It deeply concerns me. Free speech, the ability to say I represent an area where we have
a lot of faith people, and my district does not agree with this bill. My district does not want
me to vote for this bill. I saw those conversations being shut down. I actually heard in committee,
which I just had to do a double take, because it was so brazen. It was, yeah, we disagree,
and you know what? You're probably part of a hate group then.
You and I. So now you hear things.
So they're labeling.
Yes.
They're just completely labeling.
Yes. It was so stunning to me. But a lot of people at school board meetings find themselves
being labeled this way. Group, you and I are familiar nationally.
That's like the key word, isn't it?
Yes.
They found, the Democrats have really found that the word hate carries a lot of weight with people,
and it causes Republicans or conservatives to suddenly go on the defensive.
Well, it's like saying, it's like being called a rapist or something. In other words, it's the
hate, when we can throw something at you where your mouth is open going, whoa, wait a minute,
you're already starting from a negative. I had someone last night call me, known her for 30
something years. Boy, has she been in the arena and has always been a step ahead. She gets the
conversation of the left very well, and she has managed her business through it. But she said,
listen, when people immediately now, when you're in an issue of disagreement,
and you're hateful, you're being hateful. I read today, someone said, how do we discuss
those tough issues where you're dealing at target with transgender issues or gender dysphoria? How,
if you say, we have a disagreement over here, I have compassion here. No, it doesn't matter.
You're just, you're hateful. Very hard to come back. In fact, I've watched the debate on the
House floor this season to see, and it just stuns people of goodwill, right? That one fellow who
said, I have three daughters, all engaged in sports. My district does not agree with, in the
Title IX aspect. We want Title IX was for women, you know, he said, but he was, he was gaveled down.
He was gaveled down for saying his free speech. Now we have trouble when we are engaging in now
situation. Let me ask you this. This is what I, among many things, but this is one thing I'm
concerned about. I'm listening to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. a lot. I'm listening to a lot of
his interviews and stuff, and he has no trouble saying that the Democratic Party is all about
censorship. He has no trouble saying, he says, Biden is for censorship. Biden is, is attacking
democracy, free speech, and freedom of worship. He says it straight out. Every time, every interview,
he says that. He says, he says that Biden's a warmonger for having us in the Ukraine. He has
no trouble saying that. And then he gives what I would consider kind of a John F. Kennedy-esque
Democratic Party, early sixties viewpoint, which in many ways is what we believe in.
What we all believe in. Why are the Republicans unable to just call it out for what it is?
Why do they, why do they seem so tentative and so unwilling to be bold about simple things like
that? Like to me, the censorship issue since COVID, and it was happening a little before,
but it's really happening now. Why don't they just call it censorship, call it what it is,
and say, this is undemocratic.
This is an attack on democracy.
Why did they—I don't understand.
I mean, here's a Democrat, R. F. K. Jr.
He has no trouble just calling out for what it is.
But I think it's who you are.
I think we're in an age where a guy like he—
and I laugh with my Democrat sister, by the way, who lives in California.
And I said, if you had told me that I thought what R. F. K. Jr. was doing,
that I'd be in agreement, I would say—
if you had told me this years ago, I would have laughed in your face.
But here we are. We're in very different times.
And I think he gets to, A, because of his name, B, the party he affiliates with.
And I think—you know, I saw this for so many years as a state legislator,
with an R after your name, just easier, you're censored.
You know, it's really tough.
And I will tell you, it does take—it does, I think—
we have to develop, I don't want to say thick skin,
but we're in an age where you and I say,
OK, we have to approach things in one manner.
On the other, I remember saying to a reporter,
Why did you cover me this way?
Because what you said was not what I said.
I want to know, right?
We had that kind of come to Jesus.
In fact, I think she almost cried.
But we became very dear friends later.
But at the time, I was like, Why did you cover me in this way?
I mean, this really is so untrue.
And I've done that more than one time.
And I think sometimes when you go to people to say, Come on, right?
I mean, you know, I've had a turnaround.
Now, not everybody does. I'm not saying that.
But I think RFK gets away just because, A, his name, B, his party.
I remember at Focus, I would say to Dr. Dobson,
There is not a soul who's going to come through these doors,
unless they're in a Christian publication,
that are actually going to cover us fairly.
The goal for us is always how close to the truth were we reported.
And nine out of ten times, not reported fairly at all,
like with a semblance, you know.
And so that was tough.
Okay, so then here we are.
You're now Public Policy and Community Engagement Director for The Road.
So how do you feel like we begin to do this effectively
from a local church perspective,
where we can be a part of a Kingdom of God revolution
in El Paso County and Colorado Springs in these different arenas?
In the area of public policy, in the area of community engagement,
what are you setting up?
What are you developing at The Road that is going to make an impact,
not in Denver necessarily yet, but right here,
right now in El Paso County, in Colorado Springs?
Well, I think the first thing is getting people who align.
We talked about Courtney Salt, who works in education.
Ryan Graham, who's chairman of the board at Monument Academy.
They're all church attendees.
We have them heading up education along with a few other people.
We discussed Pam Holloway on health freedom,
and she too is working in that area already,
but we want her engaging and looking over here as to areas that, again,
the big important little things, little things that we could do every day
to take control of our freedom, of our health, right?
We are also moving into voter integrity.
I call it voter integrity, but it's really my faith votes.
It's really getting more people to register to vote and vote, right?
Debbie Chavez is currently working on that,
and we also, I think as you know,
we've had a church voter guide that we've also worked on,
and then we're going to expand also in the area of pro-life, end of life.
I think this church always supports so many pro-life.
We have a lot of activities here around pro-life,
and so we're going to be moving in that direction,
but all of it meant to empower very simple things, right?
Not things, again, nationally that we have no control over because we don't,
but things, for example, on how might we approach our county commissioners.
What is it like to run for office, right?
That's so good.
What can you and I do at the beginning of school
as we're concerned about what our kids are learning or hearing or what they're doing?
That's so good. I love that.
It's funny.
You and I every day, we implement values into our kids,
what they learn at home, how we spend our time with them,
and it's hurtful to me.
It hurts my heart.
that then when they go to school,
they're being put in a position of loyalty.
Are you, you know, I like my teacher, Ms. Sue,
but Ms. Sue says something that my parents
really don't say at home, right?
I mean, that's not what I know.
It really puts kids in a terrible pulled position.
And I think COVID actually kind of highlighted
what was going on for many parents and said,
oh my gosh, I've got to get in.
I've got to find out what's going on.
And we're not going to get it 100% right.
Like we're not.
And I would say to my son,
you have to live your faith at school,
like to the best of your ability.
We're going to empower you to do that
to the best of your ability.
But if there's something overwhelming,
I remember a science teacher sent home kind of a more,
it was a very questionable lesson to me.
It was really anti-capitalism, et cetera.
And I said, well, that's not for him to handle that.
Even though he valiantly tried his best,
that's for me to handle.
Made an appointment, paid a visit, had a nice chat.
Here's what we believe.
You want to do these kinds of lessons?
Sorry, not with him.
Good.
You know what I'm saying?
But respectful, nice, but again, right?
And so-
So we've got to empower our kids, don't we?
We do.
The parents need to be aware
of what is going on in the school system
and stay in the hunt.
So Liz and I met with the principal,
as well as the teacher that was in question
over something that one of our kids was being taught.
And we knew that there was a risk involved.
Might be a risk to their grade because we got involved,
but we didn't care.
So we got involved and it was a very,
very uncomfortable meeting.
But it was very clear what we believed.
We were very, I think, loving.
Very grace-centered and loving,
but uncompromising in our challenge.
And the principal, who was vehemently opposing us,
and rightly so, I think he should support his teacher,
when we first went in there,
flipped about halfway through
and began to realize that we had a point,
a legitimate point,
and he kind of started putting pressure on the teacher, too.
So I think it was a win-win for the school,
not for the teacher.
It was a win-win-lose.
I think she felt like she was being,
in a sense, reprimanded.
And I think she needed to be
because she was actually breaking protocol.
But that was a more conservative school.
That was a charter school.
So we had some of that going for us
that maybe some of the public schools wouldn't have.
But I think Amy, for me as a pastor,
being involved in some of this, too,
has been pretty eye-opening
because I do believe that,
I'm a big believer in having relationships
that you have at least worked as hard as you can
to develop with the amount of time that you have.
So having the county commissioners in my home,
having senators and house members in my home,
having a barbecue
and having some of the top leaders in the county come over,
not to talk about politics,
but actually to build the relationships,
having them around the fire pit,
even like two weeks ago,
having Ryan and Dork Hobbs.
And I could go through others that were there
as a part of that.
And that was, I mean, it got a little bit political,
but it was more about the kingdom of God.
It was more about our relationship with God,
about our marriages and things like that.
Then it's not as hard to pick up the phone,
make the phone call and say,
what are you thinking on this?
You know, that's not what you believe.
And I've had to do that maybe eight or nine times
over the last couple of years.
And I think it actually,
I want that lingering thought in the back of their head
that Pastor Steve's not happy with that decision
and he's my friend.
It doesn't always work.
As a matter of fact,
there's a recent one that was like,
he didn't even call me back.
Okay, so I knew I was on sketchy,
I was on the thin ice, man, it was thin ice.
But that's okay.
Yeah, but the support of those is important.
You see, to every time you're gonna come there,
I almost, it's like the double.
Then how are you also going to bless that school, right?
But you can't, I feel this way even in politics
and maybe I'm just naive,
but I feel like we can't come in with a negative word
if we haven't given positive words before that.
And so there's some equity built by the fact
that we care about them as a soul too.
And we love them.
Now I'm not talking about the legislative body
that you were in.
and where is so many, there's so many out there.
But you even said that, you know,
when you were house majority leader,
you were reaching across the aisle.
So knowing you, Amy, you were building relationships.
You're saying that's difficult today.
I think it is.
Well, okay, that's the issue up there.
I don't know how they're gonna figure that out.
But down here, down here,
this is where we've gotta be relational.
Because the kingdom of God, I just love this,
you know, Romans 14, 17 says,
the kingdom of God consists of not eating and drinking,
but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
So the first one is righteousness.
And righteousness in the Greek and scripturally
means right relationships.
So we can't have right relationships if we want peace.
So if we want peace in our heart,
we've gotta have right relationships.
So I can't believe Paul wouldn't give us that quantifying
of what the kingdom of God is
under the rubric of the kingdom,
if it's impossible to do, even in that arena.
So I feel as though we should do everything we can.
I can't say it's gonna be responded to in a positive way.
But shouldn't we, in public policy
from the local church level,
try to have righteousness, peace, and joy,
and engage?
I mean, I was just with our mayor on Saturday
with about five other pastors and about 20 other people,
and prayed for him, and gave him a word from Deuteronomy 28
and prayed over him, and it was a powerful time,
and everybody was amening, it was a great time.
I've gotta, well, you and I, too,
have a relationship with him that gets us a foot in the door
if a policy came down where he might want some input.
And again, I think you and I also know
that there will be times,
there's also, we shake the dust off our feet.
There are times we will agree to disagree.
We're going to.
I mean, we may have talked it out,
but we're still going to agree to disagree
because we're not, I don't think it's you and I
are gonna absolutely, we got to agreement,
because there are some things that we just simply,
you're gonna believe one way,
and I'm going to believe another.
That's right.
And you know what?
Wish you well, right?
Wish you well.
But we should try.
Yes, we should try.
That's the part that drives me batty,
is when I hear the innuendos,
and I hear the name-calling,
and I hear the labeling on both sides
to over issues that I wonder if they even tried
to talk about. Well, you're good at trying.
I'm gonna give this to you.
You're good.
You, more than many people I know,
you're really good at this.
You will pick the phone up and you will say,
hey, you know what?
We need to meet.
A lot of people, most, I'm gonna say most,
many people have a very hard time
in those kinds of discussions.
Confronting, it's like you talked about even at school.
This was uncomfortable.
And very often, we don't run to things
that are uncomfortable.
We would love to avoid pain, you and I,
as much as possible.
But you, I've observed, you are good at it.
And at least, you know.
Kind of a suicidal mentality,
like let's just dive in there and get killed.
You do.
Okay, we're good.
You do, and I'm impressed.
I've learned from it.
I'm learning from it because I see where you go with that.
But I would tell you, it's just most people will shrug
or walk away or hold a, you hold a grudge,
or you, it's just, it's not, that's what it is, okay?
And I don't think all the time,
people just haven't learned,
I can tell you even within the legislature,
things to confront well.
It's why you get those midnight surprises, right?
You get things that you just didn't expect.
But I think what you're modeling
and have encouraged us to do
is really kind of where we have to learn.
So we may, I think, even within this outreach at our church,
part of the thing is to also learn how to have a positive,
and I don't wanna say a positive,
a constructive conversation, the tough conversations.
Most people don't learn that.
And I think we do all of us better
by always trying to learn the tough conversations,
critical conversations, where this may go.
I guess what motivates me also
is I look at what's happening
with those that I strongly disagree with.
And I'm always asking myself, am I becoming like them?
That's just what I, that really motivates me not to become like them.
So if I'm seeing this arrogance and this pride and this self-sufficiency and this cancel culture,
then I realize that I'm headed in that same direction if I don't do something the opposite.
So it's kind of that opposite spirit kind of viewpoint.
So I think it's a fear of God. It's a fear of God thing.
So if I'm going to stand before the Lord for El Paso County, for Colorado Springs, and for the road,
did I, with the kingdom of God that's within me, that's greater than he that is in me than he that is in the world,
if I believe that the victory of Christ happened at Calvary,
and that through the resurrection all demons and principalities and powers and Satan have been defeated,
if I believe Acts 2 in Peter's speech where he said,
this Messiah, this Jesus who rose from the grave is now seated at the right hand of the Father
all his enemies are under his footstool, that the victory of God is moving across the land,
that even in the midst of the defeats we feel maybe right now, there's actually a greater good,
there's actually a greater kingdom that is actually, it is advancing,
and that there's a day coming when all the enemies of the Lord,
and I'm not talking about just the advent, the second advent of him coming back,
I'm talking about before he comes back, in this time frame that we're in,
it may not be in our lifetime, but there's going to be,
there's going to be the defeat of all the enemies of God and that he's going to win.
How can I believe in the power of God that's that great that he said,
go ye therefore make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them everything that I've given them,
and lo, I'm with you always.
If actually what he really meant was, go therefore and have a few Bible studies,
but you're going to really get your butt kicked,
and you know, the Antichrist is going to take over everything,
and you're going to go to the tribulation, and then I'm going to come back,
and lo, I'm with you always.
Sorry, that's just not the victorious God that I serve.
I see all through Scripture.
You know, we talked about Isaiah 9.
Right.
You know, that the government is upon his shoulders,
and his kingdom is going to continue to have dominion and authority across the earth.
So, there's something in me, Amy, that believes what Jesus said,
that on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I give you the keys of the kingdom.
What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
What is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven.
So, there's this inward kind of thing that's growing in me.
It's like a furnace. It's like a fire.
We win, and we're going to win, and I need to approach this with a victorious mindset.
That means use common sense.
Right.
That means use natural reason.
That means be persuasive.
That means that I fear God, and I'm going to stand before him,
and I'll be able to say to him,
Lord, I did everything I know in a kingdom way,
and we won or we lost, but I did all that I could.
But I can't say that, Amy, if I'm doing the very same thing that they do,
and I'm just saying they're all a bunch of commies,
and they're all a bunch of losers or whatever.
I don't even like the labels that get used,
but rather, even though it's a little harder work,
we do everything that we can to love those people.
And that's why I went up to that, the Antifa leader,
when we did Hold the Line, the thing with Sean,
and I said, you know, I'd love to take you to coffee.
I've seen your writing. You're a good writer.
You're really a good writer.
I don't agree with your point of view, and you and I both know that,
but why don't, here's my card, you know, let's talk.
You know, we haven't met yet.
But a lot of people I found, not that particular person,
but in other cases, they do respond.
They do respond because they don't know anybody.
They don't know anybody on the other side of the aisle
because they do the very same thing.
But on the other side of the aisle, most of them don't know anybody either.
So I just am idealistic enough.
I think I'm also getting seasoned enough through some defeats and some failures in that too
to realize it doesn't always work out, but that's not the goal, it's the fear of God.
It's like, before the Lord did I do all that I can? Versus fear of man, which is all about my popularity
or being cool or whatever, that's fear of man to me. I think, man, we don't want to go there.
But we don't have to worry about what other people think.
I think you've seen such an explosive growth in this church because of leadership.
Ron and I the other night were looking at the history channel of FDR during the Great Depression.
It's enlightening because...
Is that a history channel you have?
Yes, and everything was wiped out, right? 1920, everything was wiped out. People just...
Lost everything. Terrible.
But because this guy portrayed just this positive...
He was very positive.
Positive, here's what we're going to do, here's what we're doing, working.
Now, you and I can...
Going through paralysis nonetheless, and yet he overcame it with such a positive attitude.
I'll have people go, oh, she held up FDR, oh, she's an establishment, oh my God.
Of course, of course.
Whatever. But here's the thing, there's something to be learned by that,
and it's something that this church exuded during a time, I almost call COVID the Great Depression because it is.
And I think the aftermath of it is we have a lot of hurting people.
We have a lot of mental health with kids, with youth, with family issues that we're dealing.
It's the fallout from that.
And so we are in a really interesting time.
100%.
And what you're talking about right now is this model where people have gone,
there's someone strong.
They aren't budging here.
We knew this over here.
But at the same time, a grace where we can come and talk.
We've got weakness.
I got weakness.
I mean, honest to Pete, but I had an open door policy in my office as majority leader.
I'm not surprised.
That's what I would have thought of you.
Take your badge off.
That's why you and I are on the same team.
Take your badge off.
Because I knew that heart was in you too.
Let's just have a talk here, have some tea, whatever.
But again, those and what is shared there isn't going elsewhere.
You also have to prove that kind of trustworthiness.
And I think we're in an age right now where trustworthiness, people are leery and weary.
But where they can find it, and I think that's why this church has had such explosive growth.
It's a combination of strength and grace.
Strength here, positivity.
Because again, the World Economic Forum is at my doorstep.
I don't know what to do about it.
I get overwhelmed, right?
But there's strength and grace.
Strength and grace.
That's what allows me, allows others to say, what are just the big, important, little things I can do today to own my life?
That's it.
And I think truth always wins.
Truth always wins.
There may be a period where it doesn't win.
I mean, when we see the Bolshevik Revolution, we see the Soviet Union and all taking over Russia in that period of time of like 70 years.
So it was 70 years.
It seems like a long time to them.
But in the vast spectrum of history, it wasn't very long.
Eastern Europe falling, Iron Curtain coming down because of Christianity.
I mean, you could argue that because of John Paul II being the pope, Ronald Reagan being the president, Margaret Thatcher being prime minister, that there was this victorious trifecta that had an impact on Gorbachev and Yeltsin after that.
But it was this solidarity movement under Lech Walesa in Poland that kind of ignited it, right?
Right.
So that's what God does.
That's what God does in history.
Yes.
Is there's a point where you've gone too far and truth's going to win.
Yes.
And the people knew that they had known it for years.
They knew that the Communist Party was just lying to them.
Right.
And then you've got a guy like Alexander Solzhenitsyn being put into the Russian gulag, and he's the one who made the famous quote, you know, live not by lies.
Right.
So that's what we've got to remember.
We've got to remember that America is beautiful and wonderful as our history is.
We have been living a lot by lies.
I mean, there's a lot of stuff coming out on tons of stuff.
Right.
And that's where I think COVID was so good.
Right.
See, I think what the enemy meant for evil, God's using for good because I didn't know.
Right.
Amy, I didn't know.
know half the stuff. I didn't know anything about a World Economic Forum. I didn't know
anything about 20 things we could go over until that happened. And then it kind of jolted
you and that shook me enough to actually start investigating and starting to look into stuff.
Vigilance.
And then look at all these young, I mean we're doing Empower You and here we got all these
young people right here in the room that are running it. You know, you look at Twitter
and what Elon Musk has done and others. And then you've got, I don't know, probably
25 pretty popular podcasts right now that we didn't know about three years ago.
Yes.
That are really happening and where the mainstream media is censoring certain people, we can
watch them there. So the message is getting out. That's only going to grow because truth
wins.
People know in their heart that they're an American and we should have free speech.
Yes.
We're American. We should be able to worship wherever we want to. We are American. We should
be able to have land rights and protect our home. Anyway, we could go on and on and I
would just say thank you. Thank you for being here. And for all of you that follow Empower
You, we're going to be doing a whole series with Amy that's going to deal with issues
of public policy and engagement in kind of what we're doing at The Road in the local
church that's been very effective. It's really been effective. We're getting better and better
at it. But our hope is that you'll watch that series and be able to think about your community
where you live or even the church that you're in, how you might even become someone who
could direct a ministry at your church that could have an impact. And you could get in
touch with myself or Amy about how to do that. But our hope is that through the episodes
that you'll see, you will understand a little bit of about eight. Is it about eight categories
that you have underneath that?
I think. Yeah. Short of that. Maybe like six.
So tell us a little bit. Don't tell us about it because we don't have time. But what are
the titles?
Well, I think we're looking education and parental rights, right? We're looking at pro-life
and end of life. We are looking at voter integrity or getting engaged in My Faith Votes. So we're
getting involved in, as you said, taxes, health care, health freedom. And then again, personal
property rights. I think it's a huge issue coming in this state, really, and taxation
of free people to the degree we can and a republic if you can keep it.
That's right.
Yes.
Yeah. So thanks, Amy, for being here. Appreciate you so much.
Thank you. It's such a pleasure. Thank you.