Time for a cup of tea.
Nice.
So.
How lovely.
I hope you guys are doing good.
Great to be with you for our second session.
As we chat about the seven sacred pathways to intimacy.
And this session is called welcome to our chaos.
So we're going to go deep on that.
And.
Here we go.
Cool.
So if you're watching on Facebook world,
then come along and join us.
And.
In the zoom room.
Cool.
It's all live happening there.
That's good.
Good to see.
So we'll just hang out for a moment here.
As we.
Look at this.
So.
Yeah.
Hope you guys are doing real good.
We are going to be.
Having a bunch of fun today.
And our story time today.
So.
While we're,
while we're waiting for people to just kind of turn up and jump in the
zone.
Jumping in on Facebook as well.
Fun news is that we.
Completed our book.
And we're going to be.
We're going to be.
We're going to be, we're going to be.
We're going to be doing the book,
the book is done.
The couples book is done and the.
Single's workbook is done for the seven sacred pathways to intimacy.
So some of you will have seen this.
If you are in.
If you've seen it in the group.
I posted a picture of this in the group.
But let me.
Let me share the screen.
Share a screen with you and I'll show you.
A picture of the book.
Which is fun.
Yeah.
So here I go into a screen share.
Okay, sweet. This is the book.
Yeah.
How do you like that? That's that's the ring that we told you about
last time as well. So that ring is.
Yeah.
That was fun for everyone. So we're stoked.
The book is done.
The book is violent.
It's it's happening.
So everyone here in the online school,
you guys will get a free copy of the.
Ebook and the couples work book and the singles work book.
They'll be coming out next week.
So.
Yeah, so we're really, really excited about releasing that.
Yeah.
Facebook looks so cool.
Yes, it is.
Hey, Selena.
Hey, Lisa.
I don't know if you can.
Always love it when you jump in the zoom room with us.
So we've got.
Yeah.
All right, sweet.
So we're going to pray and you're going to jump into it.
And if you're here in the zoom room.
Watching Facebook comments as well.
That's why I'm kind of looking away here and there.
Is just to get a gauge on what's happening on Facebook.
So feel free to be chatting. We love to be engaging.
Engaged sharing the love and we love to.
Yeah.
We'll tell our story.
Some Q and a and stuff at the end for a bit.
Depending on how long we've got.
Cool.
So.
All right.
Oh.
Papa.
Thank you for this time.
Thank you for sharing this journey with us.
It's been a fun week that we've had putting together the book.
The workbooks.
Thank you for everyone that's sharing this journey.
Well, that's what we're so.
Grateful for, for the standard here in the online.
School of sonship.
And we're so grateful for what you are doing and people's lives.
And as we do hard things, we thank you that you are causing amazing growth and transformation
all over the place.
And so we give you all the glory and all the honor.
And we ask that you would bring an authentic expression of heaven into every area of our
lives.
In your beautiful name, Jesus.
Amen.
John Ritchie's jumping in there.
Cool.
John, good to have you.
Jumping in too.
And Raymond.
Ah, there we go.
Some of the crew turning up.
That's nice.
And one fun thing for everyone as well is that we've just released a new initiative
because we weren't busy enough creating a book.
Raymond, good to see you.
John, good to have you.
We weren't busy enough creating a book, so I've also created a new opportunity for people
too.
So next week, I'm going to be doing a training on automated impact and income.
So that's coming up.
So I'm actually going to be giving away free Kingdom businesses, so I'm going to give away
free Kingdom businesses next week.
And so if anyone's interested in learning how you can increase your impact through the
online space, and you don't want to hear about our story, how we managed to start with just
myself, to in less than six months, having 14 staff and impacting tens of thousands of
people within six months, then we're going to be sharing those, there's three secrets
that really make it possible for people to jump into the online space.
So we're going to be sharing those with you next week as well, for anyone who's keen.
We'll be giving away free Kingdom businesses as well.
Sweet.
So there we are.
Nian, how do I say that?
Is that right, Nian?
You're going to have to un-mute it.
Can you un-mute?
How do I say your name correctly?
It's an Irish name, Niamh.
Niamh?
Niamh, yeah.
Did you say it's Irish?
It's Irish.
Yes, I'm Irish.
Fantastic.
So are you in Ireland right now?
Yes, I am.
11pm.
Oh, that's so cool.
Did you see any of our training on St. Patrick?
Yes, I did.
I loved it.
Cool.
I just feel like you should just pray for us quickly as we jump in.
I'd love to hear your accent, you'll probably enjoy my Kiwi accent, I love the Irish accent,
and it'll be just great to have an Irish blessing as we get into it.
Oh my goodness.
Well, thank you, Benji.
Father, I just bless you for this couple.
I thank you for the work that you have done in their lives, for what they've been through
and what they've come through and out the other side, and the richness of what has been
mined in that journey.
I thank you, Lord, that it's been your work and that you make it available to everybody.
But this couple have walked that path and they will be sharing that, and I thank you
for that.
So Lord, we just bless this time and we pray that it will be a revelation, insight, and
actionable for people who listen, be they single, be they a couple, whatever their state
in life may be.
And we just thank you that you would be with us at this time.
In Jesus' name.
Thanks, Kim.
Amen.
Thank you so much.
Niamh, is that how it's said?
That's right.
Well done.
Wow, great.
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you for sharing and praying for us.
So, last week, when did we get to?
Wedding, I think.
No, getting engaged.
Yes, we talked about getting engaged.
We told you our crazy story, how Alana totally shot me down.
If you haven't heard the build-up to how Alana completely shot me down and then turned
it around from that to we decided we were getting married in the same conversation.
And then we had a wedding day the next day.
If you haven't seen that part, then make sure you check out part one and jump into the guides,
and that's quite hilarious.
So, we talked about boundaries.
We used all sorts of naughty words that you're only allowed to say if you're married.
But we're pretty, we're just pretty, like, we'll just use the words for body parts and
things like that in this training in general.
So, what we talked about last week, just building up to this, was our boundaries, that we had
boundaries that we put in place.
So, for us, we had boundaries.
Kissing was okay, but what was I not allowed to touch on you?
Pretty much anywhere covered by underwear.
So, we had physical boundaries, we had time boundaries, and accountability.
Those were the three main things that we talked about that we had in place to protect ourselves
and to try and set a good example.
for those who would follow us um yeah yeah to be about reproach yep so i was a pastor at the time
as well so i was trying to be doubly doubly good on all of that um on that side of boundaries so
what we um i just want to what i want to try and prep for you is we're going to share how
chaos like how we ended up in a whole bunch of chaos um in our story but that was even
though we tried to do everything right you know like we kept our boundaries we didn't break those
boundaries once we you know we're happy with a check up from the neck up on the kissing
um but hands weren't allowed to go like alana said anywhere there was underwear there was no hands
and we kept those boundaries and we married as virgins i'm the only guy alana's ever kissed
and as soon as we got together we started doing you know communication training and relationship
silk stuff yeah um read a bunch of books we we thought we were preparing ourselves
really well yeah what was coming and then like how could anything ever go wrong
and so i'm just we're trying to paint a picture of like you try and do everything right right you
think you you think you know what to expect you think you've prepared you think you've got it
going on and you think you're being good kids right so we um
um uh yeah so married as virgins i'm a past this kid never really did anything that you know like
sexual with anyone else ever so we've walked like our whole lives preparing for this moment we've
walked our whole lives waiting for marriage we've walked our whole lives like okay this is it so
we're total sex rookies when it comes to the honeymoon we've got no idea about that or what
was your like you know your family culture around sex um one of the conversations that stands out
in my mind as a teenager was around the dinner table having dinner um me and my siblings were
all teenagers and dad said if you come home pregnant don't come home so i feel like that
really sort of encompasses what the ethos and sort of the ideas around sex were like it just
was dirty it wasn't safe just don't go there um and yeah we just it was just to the so i think
subconsciously i had this it's not okay for you and you shouldn't do it even in the confines of
marriage um because leading up to it it had this really negative um atmosphere around it
so yeah and um actually in our last session um on the origins of gospel part two we actually
talked about the guys who started bringing that into the church which is jerome and augustine
way way way back and they taught that anyone who was married was a second class citizen
how crazy is that so and then i was even saying to benji just last night that actually right
throughout history for women um sex has sort of not been okay it's been used against them and
um sex has been for the sole purpose of man in a lot of cases and that's sort of how in my opinion
it's been presented throughout world history women were forced into marriages and um you know all of
those types of things so i think actually there's a whole historical context behind
how women view sex on a self-conscious level
so i know we got married a total of six rookies there was a cool part right um so some one part
that i talked about in the book that we just loved which was really beautiful partners just after we
got married so we we got married we were driving away from the reception and um and so leaving the
reception uh we went and got changed but we still you know acted like we weren't married then we're
like okay we're not gonna separate rooms we got changed and all that and separate rooms for that
just for that moment and even so we went to our you know our hotel um but when we were driving
in the car something was so special this atmosphere of holiness um that the present the presence of
god came in the car in a tangible way that we were both looking at each other going wow like what is
this it's such an amazing atmosphere of holiness that you know we weren't praying for it or anything
like that but just this beautiful tangible um tangible amazing atmosphere of holiness that
this thing was just god just honoring the journeys that we uh that we walk it's like wow this is
amazing so um on our sex night like our sex night our honeymoon night it's sex night on our honeymoon
night um we didn't know what it was going to be like and i just said to alana look obviously you
know we're i'm really keen to um get into the action but we you know i was trying to take the
pressure off you know i was trying to take the pressure off and just make sure it's like
trying to create a safe space and safe atmosphere really because we both had
idea what to expect. Although we had read enough to know that it probably wasn't going to be fun.
So or you know not necessarily the most amazing sex in your life on the first time ever. So um
you know actually I mean quite an interesting like in the build-up books I think I might have
just touched on this last week as well but we had all sorts of build-up books all sorts of you know
things like that so we had that anyway yeah our honeymoon was fantastic it was great it was loads
of sex and we were absolutely stoked on it we I managed to surprise Alana because I don't usually
surprise her but I managed to surprise her on this um with a trip to Australia because at the time
um we basically had no money at all I was a full-time volunteer pastor um with next to no
support and um and we didn't even know how we're gonna eat let alone you know do fancy honeymoons
but in fact I got to book it so I booked two weeks at a five-star um hotel in the on the
gold coast in Australia not knowing how I was going to get flights or you know or anything but
anyway God provided which was awesome so we had a really fantastic honeymoon um uh yeah so living
it up in luxury in a five-star hotel on the gold coast um and Alana had no idea that was coming
she thought I would be driving around somewhere so I managed to surprise her with that I hadn't
had a passport so I managed to get all those things neatly together um and boom we were away
so that was fantastic honeymoon was amazing I was like yes marriage is awesome and then we came
back to reality we came back in it um for those who are following on from last week you'll remember
that when we you know um Alana we used to share where you were at you know before so I've come
down to China for sort of a break for a year so I've been working in Christian ministry through
a series of events while I was working there I was extremely burnt out um I was sort of at the
bottom of every barrel emotionally, spiritually, physically and I just needed to go somewhere where
um I could literally just sit on the couch and watch this out the window because that's sort of
where I was at I also wanted to get out of my parents house and have the expectations that
were on me not on me um and to sort of explore it just explore outside of the confines of um
my family home basically um and the expectations of where I was to go to church and all of that
kind of thing and so I went down to China with the specific mindset I was going to be there for
a year and I was going to leave uh and then Benji and I started going out and it wasn't really like
I knew what I was getting myself into in a way I mean I was marrying Benji and he was called to
Tiana but it wasn't really until a little while after we were married that the reality of that
session I was stuck there and I didn't have my family around I didn't have good friends around
and what actually that meant for me and the reality of it like that hit really really hard for me
yeah whereas for myself right God spoke to me when I was 17 before I was even following him
properly you know like um and called me to Te Anau not specifically Te Anau but Fiordland
and I was like yes and so from the time I was 17 I had been doing absolutely everything within my
power to get there uh so I was like yes got such a sense of calling for this place we're here this
is awesome we're going to change the world and you know like so we're in two totally different
places um historically because Alana and I have been doing ministry together we've been doing
ministry together for we've been married 11 years but we've been doing ministry together for over
15 years so we had several years together doing ministry and like missions trips and seeing like
outpourings and God break out and radical supernatural stuff and signs and wonders
and Alana just carries this you know seer grace and really that seer grace got shut down during
the spiritual abuse period we're still working towards seeing it coming alive I see bits of it
coming back but before that she would be seeing angels on a regular basis and we'd be having
all sorts of angelic encounters and demonic like it was all sorts of like crazy fun supernatural
like wow so she was I looked up to her in terms of the supernatural dynamic because she just
naturally could see in the spirit really well um the one of the crazy things is about that
spiritual abuse period that she went through it actually shut that whole side of her down
and um and I think we're just seeing you know like it popping up um coming alive a little bit
more and more now a little bit a little bit not not huge but compared to um compared to
the place that we've been it's it's pretty cool so I think Benji in some ways thought he was
marrying who I was and
Then we got married and the reality hit him,
that actually I was pretty broken.
So, yeah, I was just so burnt out.
I was really missing my support network and my family.
And I was about as far away from me as I could get
in New Zealand and we were broke.
So.
I remember not long after the honeymoon,
we got back and we're sitting on the couch
and Alana's just in tears, sitting there in tears.
Basically, I was like, she just looks depressed.
And as a husband, that's a great way
to feel like a total failure.
Like when your wife looks depressed, you're like, wow,
this is what you get when you marry me, you get depressed.
Like, yay.
So I was like, I know how to fix it though, right?
Because I'm a genius.
I was sure I was a genius.
And I was like, I just sat next to her on the couch
and I was like, babe, let's just pray in tongues.
So I start praying in tongues and she was just,
I just looked at her, just tears rolling down her face.
And it was at that moment that I realized
that she wasn't loving this idea.
Like, yeah.
I was like, oh, maybe I'll just pray in tongues
by myself then.
And so, so it was like, for me as well,
like my heart sank because I'm like, ah, in my mind,
like if you've got a problem, then you fix it
by praying in tongues and then the answer comes, right?
That was my rationale.
Like I'm just full on revivalist glory, Holy Ghost mode.
That's where Alana had been as well.
I was in this real supernatural space,
but the spiritual abuse had just left that tank empty.
And it was just like, to try and dig out of that tank,
it was just like, I'm like, I'm empty there.
I can't go deep in there.
So we started realizing, man,
things aren't kind of going the way
that we thought they were going to be going right,
right after the honeymoon.
Like, oh, this is interesting.
And like, so something that was beautiful, right?
All the way through as we,
you can probably tell that we're really fun people.
Like we've had crazy amounts of fun all through our marriage,
even in the times when it's been hard,
even in the times when it's been really hard,
we've had a genuine love for each other,
even if we're like, ah, I can't even connect with you,
but I really love you, but ugh.
So there's been really fantastic times
and also really hard tragic times all the way through.
So we're going to like unpack for you now
some of the sacred pathways.
So I'm just going to start like sharing with you
what those pathways are.
And then you can kind of like see where our journey was
and what was causing the chaos, which was me.
And then, yeah, we'll kind of chat from there.
So huge, huge part, I'm going to fast forward
and then we'll come back,
but a huge part of our marriage problems
came all from me, right?
But I was totally in this narcissistic place
where, you know, narcissism is just basically blindness,
right, if you want to sum it up, it's blindness.
I was blind to the fact that I was the catalyst of our chaos.
I also think that I had quite obvious problems
that I was admitting to, that I had problems there.
So that made it almost easy for Benji to put the blame on me
because here I was obviously with an issue
and I couldn't deny it.
Yeah, whereas I was like, you don't just have issues,
like you are the issue, you know?
It's like all of these problems in our marriage,
they come from you.
And so I was in this place where just all the judgment
was I was like, I love her, but like, she's the issue.
And so when I'm praying for our marriage,
I'm like praying for her,
like she's the one that needs help here.
Like, I'm like, oh God, help her, please,
that lady's got issues, like we need help,
Jesus, please help her.
But I'm praying and fasting for our marriage.
I'm praying and fasting for Alana to get help, not me.
I'm like, what?
I don't know who, like, I'm obviously doing good.
She's not doing good.
She's causing, so that was kind of where we were at.
And it meant that I had all these false judgments
in my heart towards her saying that she's the issue.
And nothing could get through to me, right?
It didn't matter how many times
or how many different angles that she communicated from.
And that same conversation again and again.
But it didn't matter, you know,
like it didn't matter where she was coming from,
like, she couldn't get through to me
that I might be causing some of these problems.
And God couldn't get through to me either.
The only thing that she finally eventually was able
to communicate in a language
that I could just manage to understand a little bit
was extreme levels of pain.
That was the only language
that I could actually understand a little bit.
was when I was in excruciating pain to the point of desperation where I'm like oh my gosh like
something has to happen for our marriage like I'm so desperate right now and it's only really in
that place of desperation that that my um like my blind eyes opened just to crack to the possibility
that maybe I was causing some of these issues too maybe it maybe it wasn't exclusively Lana maybe I
was causing some of these issues too so we're going to pause there and we're going to go back
and then we're going to like unpack all these issues up um so the second sacred pathways to
intimacy which you'll see in the book and in the workbooks which everyone's going to get a free
copy of those next week but um what you've got is uh the first one is spiritual so that's the
first pathway so for um uh I'll just list the pathway pathways and then we'll go we'll go
through it but you've got the spiritual pathway that's the first one right so that really a huge
part of that is identity and that's why I talk so much about identity and operating systems and the
book covers that well but um I talk about identity all the time um because that's the spiritual
pathway so if you if you've got identity issues they're all kind of connected to the spiritual
so um the spiritual pathway is the first one and these first three pathways are the foundational
pathways okay so you've got three pathways that are the foundational pathways that are going to
like these are going to set the tone and set the atmosphere for your whole marriage so the first
one is the spiritual side of things if you're not you know secure in your identity there's no way
you can be a powerful person right so if you're not secure in your identity you cannot have a
healthy functional relationship it's going to be dysfunctional your capacity to have healthy
relationships is determined by uh your ability to walk in your identity so the spiritual pathway the
first one that actually dictates our ability to receive and express love so that's the first
pathway our ability to receive and to express love and you know like if we can't be receiving
expressing love from god then we kind of like our tanks will run dry really quickly i was just
talking to someone this week um you know a friend of ours just want to talk about how like her
relationship a little bit it's not just about how she feels like her her her partner is her anchor
oh i just think about a different one to you you were talking to that friend
all right well um well she was just saying that you know like
she doesn't know jesus but for her in her world if there's a relationship problem her whole world
is completely shaken to the core because her relationship is her source so if there's a
relationship issue she's like i'm completely i'm not functional because that's my source
so all her love all her stability all her security is gone the moment that there's a relationship
challenge so that's why the spiritual pathway is the found first foundational pathway after
the spiritual pathway it's the emotional pathway um so the emotional pathway it determines um now
let me it's evading my brain for a second here yeah grab the book the emotional pathway
determines our ability to express like to um it determines our capacity to express love
right so if your emotions aren't in check if someone's got a really short fuse that they're
always breaking you know like uh if they're always flipping out we we're talking about in the book
it's called amygdala hijacks but if you're always having emotional meltdowns or breakdowns
you're not a safe person right you can't express love so we'll go deeper in that but the emotional
pathway determines your ability to actually express love um your ability to communicate
love effectively right determines how effective you are at communicating love so um the third
pathway is the intellectual pathway and that determines your ability to so you've got the
spiritual pathway that determines your ability to receive and express love the emotional pathway
that determines how effective you are at communicating love and then the intellectual
pathway that determines your ability to effectively communicate love to your spouse specifically in
the way that they want to be loved and then so that's the foundational three and then you've got
we call the fourth one an essential pathway which we call the forgotten pathway because
the five love languages books it talks about you know um quality time acts of service gifts words
and touch. And even though they kind of allude to it, that it's not necessarily always sexual,
most people don't think about that. And so they think there's, you know, there's five love
languages. So if it's touch, then that's probably, you know, then they want to be having a lot of
sex, like they're a touch person. So yeah, they want to snuggle and things like that, but they
want like, really a touch person is a sex person, right? So that, so most people kind of like,
weld that in their mind. So we call it the forgotten pathway, the sensual pathway,
which is non-sexual touch. And so that's, sorry, that's the fourth pathway. And then the last
three pathways, we call them make it or break it pathways. So the make it or break it pathways are
first of all financial. And these, these pathways, they really start showing up what's in your
foundations. You know, so whatever's in your foundations, they start really showing up here.
So the make it or break it pathways, the first one is financial. And so that has a huge bearing
on how you live. It determines whether or not money is your servant or the master in your
marriage. So that's the financial pathway, determines whether the money is the servant
or the master in your marriage. It's not just about how much money you have. It's actually
about your relationship to money, you know, like is, you know, are you a slave to money in the way
that you think about money? Is money got a higher value to you than obedience to God? Because if
you, if money's higher in your value system than obedience to God is, then money can control you,
money will become your master in that way. But then money will also control you,
secular money will also control you as if you have none, right? It dictates your time, it dictates,
you know, what you can do, what you can't do, what you can eat, if you can go out, if you can't go
out, if you can hire a babysitter or not. So that's the financial pathway, determines whether
or not money is the master or the servant in your marriage. The sixth pathway is the leadership
pathway, which is who's making the decisions, who's wearing the pants. Where do you live?
Yeah, where do you live? Who's making those decisions about where you live?
Alana, I joke about that, who wears the pants one, because I'm a big,
I'm just, I think sex is great, I was like, wait, wait, let's not fight about who's wearing the
pants, let's just not wear pants. To me, that's a better idea. But the leadership pathway,
that's all about the decision-making process, like how are you communicating, you know, do you have a
codependent relationship, do you have a power struggle relationship, or do you have a powerful
people relationship? So we're going to break all those things down going forward in the journey,
and then there's the final one, which is, yes, the sexual pathway. Yes, so that determines
how sex is stewarded in your marriage, you know, is sex safe, or is sex weaponized,
you know, is someone using sex for manipulation, are they using it for control, are they using it
for punishment, or is, you know, is it mutual, is it fun, is it painful, is it a health issue,
all of those dynamics. So those are the seven sacred pathways. And a lot of the breakdown
relationships, often people, it'll come under those last three, that's where a lot of tension
for people comes in, and reasons why relationships break down and fail.
Yeah, those are recognized as the top three reasons why relationships fail,
the financial pathway, the leadership pathway, the sexual pathway, but actually the deeper issue,
which people don't often identify as the reason they're having problems there, is the foundational
pathways, which is the spiritual, the emotional, and the intellectual. But people aren't very
conscious of those pathways, they're not very, people aren't very conscious of the spiritual
side of their lives, they aren't conscious of the fact that they've got an identity crisis
that's causing chaos in all parts of their life, they aren't often conscious of the fact that
it's their emotions and their triggering and their reactions that's actually shutting down
their ability to communicate the love that they have in their heart for that person. So
if we jump into our story,
what would you say, Babe, was one of the most classical painful moments for us?
You wanting sex and me not wanting it.
There you go, very good. How many times have we had a conversation about
me trying to initiate sex and you not being interested, apart from last night?
Way too many, I couldn't even count. It was often.
Oh, because probably, I mean, we've been married over 11 years.
So if you take, let me get my calculator out.
So if you go to 11 times 365, that's 4015.
So that's your conversations.
That's how many, that at bare minimum is how many times I've thought about having sex with you.
At bare minimum, at bare minimum.
That's that's about how many times I would have thought about, you know, sharing that conversation.
Yeah. You know, it's probably a lot.
If I was to be really gracious, I might say hundreds of times we had the conversation.
But it was years of that conversation.
We haven't had that conversation for years now, which is really cool.
But here's kind of how a classic, how I would classically go.
Alana comes to bed, which I mean, would want to go to bed after, like, right.
So I try to, I'm unconsciously thinking of the fact that Alana needs an earlier night for it to be a better chance.
Right. So I'm like, hey, let's go to bed.
And she's like, oh, maybe we'll just watch another episode of this.
And I'm like, oh, I'll just start getting ready for bed.
And like, so I'm in bed, lying in bed, waiting for her to get there.
And she's marking a round something product.
I'm like, oh, my gosh, what does she have to do?
It's like, let's go.
And so she gets to bed conveniently.
It's late now.
So I know that she's already, you know.
But also, he probably didn't realize that I could tell during the day if he was going to ask me that question at night.
And I think a lot of it was subconscious on his part.
But it might be in the way that he had to be in the day or that he tried to kiss me or that he took the rubbish out.
Like, I could tell exactly his formula throughout the day, if I do this equals this.
So I would spend the whole day knowing we were going to have that conversation.
That's why I didn't want to go to bed.
So he probably thought he was being a genius.
OK, so here we go.
Oh, yeah.
So here's our conversation.
Our conversation would go like this.
You finally get to bed or whatever.
I'd initiate and she wouldn't be interested.
And then we'd have like a casual negotiation.
Like, oh, yeah. Like, are you sure?
Like, could I talk you into that?
And then my sexual appeal was like.
They do fast.
Well, like, tragic.
I would not feel very like I felt like I had no ability to seduce my wife at all.
I was like, man, I am bad at this.
Like, I am bad at this.
So anyway, we kind of get through that kind of stage of the negotiation.
And it'll be kind of clear to me that she just really wasn't interested in anything at all.
And you try one more time.
Well, you got to try one more time.
And then I'd be like, OK, total fail.
And then that's the moment then that I would start sulking.
So so I'd be like, well,
I'm offended that you're not interested in me.
I'm obviously the sexiest man in the room.
And and you just know you're not interested.
So I'd be like, I'm kind of offended by that.
And then I get emotional and I'd be like, and so here's the thing about the emotional
pathway of how the emotional pathway dictates your.
Effectiveness at communicating love is your emotional,
the emotional pathway dictates the effectiveness of your ability
to communicate love because it's your emotions that start setting the atmosphere.
And the moment that you're you create an unsafe atmosphere.
There's not going to be any vulnerability.
Right, vulnerability runs away from an unsafe atmosphere.
So the moment you create an unsafe atmosphere with your emotions, which,
you know, it doesn't have to be much to create an unsafe atmosphere,
just a little like tone of voice or a little switch in your attitude.
And it's just like.
You know, like.
We're off to get across to the B&O.
So I create this unsafe atmosphere,
which if you imagine snails, right?
You feel like they fully extend their antennae out when they're like
having a great day.
They're out there in the sun like, yeah, everything's great.
It's a sunny day and they're feeling good.
They're like kind of like snail charting down the road and they ride up
and they feel totally safe.
It's awesome.
It's like, oh, look at that snail.
It's so heavy.
And then someone stands on the pavement or whatever.
But or it's a fright, right?
And it just the first thing that happens is it's antennae retract.
And then after it's antennae.
If it's really scared, it goes right inside its shell.
So it's completely, it's just sucked right inside there.
And that's a great picture for what vulnerability's like.
Like the moment something's unsafe,
first our antennae go back,
and then if it really, we confirm it's not safe,
then we suck up right inside our shell.
And so that's one of the things
that the emotional pathway is doing,
is dictating the safety in an atmosphere,
which then determines the level of vulnerability
that people can express in that atmosphere,
how safe they're feeling, all of those things.
So I created this unsafe atmosphere right away.
And I was often like, all day, I felt unsafe.
So it wasn't just in that one moment,
it was all the time that I felt unsafe in our own bedroom
or in our own house
because of the whole atmosphere around it.
So then I would, I'd stop for a little bit,
and then we'd have our most dreaded conversation after that.
And then after a while of our most dreaded conversation,
going through the exact conversation,
the exact dead-end conversation that got nowhere,
said the same things,
it was almost like you could script it.
Lana basically didn't even want to communicate
because she was like, you're gonna say this,
I'm gonna say this.
And then that, like that silence was the worst for me.
I'm like, I'm dying here and you've got nothing to say!
And she's just like, aw, just trying to ride it out.
I'm like, I'm in so much pain and you can't even talk to me!
I was like, ah!
And so that would kind of be like the end.
That would pretty much be the end.
Kat, good to see you.
And then we'd go to bed, like go to sleep,
way later than we planned to,
both kind of emotionally drained out.
Kat, good to see you.
We're both at that point, we're going to sleep,
we're both emotionally drained out,
we're way tired than we needed to be,
way later than we planned on going to bed,
going to sleep and not feeling very connected.
And then the next day,
waking up with a sink atmosphere the next day as well.
So that to me, I was like,
this is the problem in our marriage right here.
This is it.
This is the problem.
You're not happy to have sex every time I want to have sex.
And that's the problem.
You're the problem.
Yeah, you're the problem, right?
So that's what I was like,
this is obviously the problem right here, is Alana.
And like I said, this went on for years.
It wasn't just once or twice that I got shut down.
You know, like in the worst of it,
we would go months without having sex.
I know one guy who was a student for us,
he lived in a sexless marriage for,
I think over 30 years before it ended.
He was like, obviously if he was married for 30 years,
he's kind of an older guy.
So that marriage ended, I don't know all the details,
but if you don't have sex for 30 years in your marriage,
it's probably a sign that it's not that healthy.
And then after that marriage ended,
he got remarried and he came to one of our training schools
as an older couple in their 60s.
And we always do sex talks at those training schools
and that mainly because it's young people,
but they were so happy to be sharing about how the,
now in their 60s, they both had the best sex lives
that they ever had.
And so they were like, oh, oh, oh.
But this guy, 30 years in a sexless marriage.
Actually, in some studies that I looked at,
it's someone who did a survey of a whole bunch of people.
Their statistics came back that 10 to 15% of people
had not had sex with their spouse
in the last six months to a year.
So that was interesting statistics, right?
10 to 15% of people hadn't been having sex
with their spouse in the last six months to a year.
Cat is like mortified.
That's a good mortified face.
He's like, what, what?
So, yeah, so there was actually a space there
where it probably went longer than six months
where we would have been one of those statistics
at one period there.
It was like, oh my gosh.
And I was just going nuts.
But my conclusion was, Alana's the issue,
not taking into consideration the bigger picture
of why she didn't feel like sex
and what the context was
and what had created that world of chaos.
So, because I wasn't aware
of the seven sacred pathways to intimacy, right?
So I'm just thinking, right, we should be having sex
and you're the problem.
my blindness and my narcissism really was the issue
is I was not taking into consideration.
I was just like tunnel vision on the fact
that when I'm asking for sex, she's saying,
no, that's the problem.
But I wasn't, it's like, I wasn't aware of the fact,
I wasn't consciously aware of the fact
of the environment that I created in our marriage, right?
Where I wasn't consciously taking into consideration
the fact that Alana was totally burnt out.
She was spiritually burnt out.
And a lot of these years were our little kid years.
So she's got little kids, babies,
postnatal depression as well.
We would have totally say she had postnatal depression.
Ezra was our first child,
was a really, really difficult baby.
Lots of sleepless nights, lots of just intensive,
like, oh, breastfeeding was terrible.
He had an issue and breastfeeding was really hard.
And I wanted to play with Alana's boobies.
And so that was not, you know,
like it just creates extra issues.
You know, like if your nipples are bleeding there,
you know, from breastfeeding,
then you're not necessarily being as super sexy
about anyone else playing with your bleeding nipples.
So there's the spiritual side of things,
where Alana's totally spiritually down.
So there was pressure on us in that side of our marriage.
And I wasn't taking that into consideration.
I wasn't taking the postnatal depression.
We weren't even consciously, at the time,
we were in survival mode.
So we weren't really even analyzing ourselves very well.
We were like, oh, we're gonna get through this.
Like, yeah, like, come on.
I think that's a big part of it for me.
The first five years of our marriage,
I was in survival mode.
I can't take anyone else into consideration
when I'm trying to get myself through the day.
And I don't think either of us really understood that
at the time.
Oh, I didn't, definitely didn't.
And I didn't either.
That I was actually just trying to get myself
through the day, let alone deal with Benji.
And then when you've got kids on top of that,
and you're trying to get them to survive the day as well,
there's just so much extra pressure there.
Yeah, so we had pressure on the spiritual side of things.
We had pressure on the emotional side of things,
because I'm creating unsafe atmospheres all the time.
Because I'm like, come on, woman, what's wrong with you?
And then we've got the intellectual side of things, right?
Which is your ability to effectively communicate
and effectively love and express.
This was one area where we-
We had great communication most of the time.
Not all the time, I think.
We had good communication,
and we had a good level of knowing each other,
even in the midst of our chaos.
But I still wasn't very effective
in actually loving her specifically,
because I was so blind to all the other areas.
We had communication going really well,
but because of my blindness to everything else,
it's actually really minimized my ability to love her.
So you're like,
if you've got the intellectual side of things
down really well,
then you know exactly what your spouse wants,
when they want it, and how they like it, right?
That's when you can tell
that you've really mastered the intellectual pathways.
You know what your spouse needs, what they want,
what their dreams are, what their desires are.
That's when you can tell that you really know.
And also, right?
And also that you're meeting those needs.
If you've mastered the intellectual pathway as a couple,
then it's not just a theoretical knowledge
of what each other wants, when they want it,
how they like it,
but there's this mutual place where you should come together
and each person is getting what they want,
when they want it, and how they like it.
And I think a big part of it for me, too,
is I didn't know what I wanted.
I didn't know what I needed.
And in hindsight, I was actually just so burnt out.
I needed time, was a big part of it.
I needed time to just kind of sit and sleep
and just like the real basics.
Yeah.
Yeah, and then the next pathway is the essential pathway.
And because we were so versed in the five love languages,
as we kind of missed the boat a little bit
on the five love languages,
because one of the five love languages is touch.
And so in my mind, I've used all touch for sex.
Like to me, the goal, like if you start touching me,
like the goal should be sex, right?
Like that's where you want to get to.
Like all touch should have a happy ending.
You know, in my mind, I was like, yeah, hey,
but not so for Rolanda.
And because I always thought that all touch should end,
you know, should have a happy ending.
She was like, well, no touch is really that safe right now.
Like we couldn't sit on the couch and me hold his hand
because he thought that it would be all on
and then we would be back in that conversation.
Or, you know, like he's sitting at the dining table
and I put my hand on his shoulder.
You know, like that type of-
Oh, I know what that means.
Exactly.
So that meant that I avoided touch at all costs, because for me, any touch, he wanted
sexual touch, and so therefore no touch was safe, when I actually just wanted to hold
his hand for that to be it.
So she's stoked with sensual touch, she was happy with the sensual side of things, which
is massages, to her that was safe touch, the sensual side of things was safe touch, it
was nice touch, but because I had no understanding that sensual touch was even a thing, I was
just like, oh, she's trying to start something, I don't know where this is going.
So she starts with drawing touch, and then I'm like, you didn't touch me!
And it starts sulking, and creating unsafe atmospheres, and so she starts to just touch
me a little bit more, and I was like, yes, she's really into me!
And she was like, that's not what I'm saying!
So she'd stop touching me again, and we'd just have that cycle going around in the sensual
touch, and it wasn't, and we'll talk more about this in the next session of how we started
to patch things, start to figure things out, when we started to realise that sensual and
sexual touch were two different pathways, when actually my brain started to realise,
oh, there's another thing going on here with that lady.
So that's why we call sensual touch the forgotten pathway.
So the first three pathways, spiritual, emotional, intellectual, we call them the foundational
pathways, because that's going to set the whole atmosphere, that's going to set the
whole tone, that's going to set everything up in your marriage.
And the cool thing about that for people is that a lot of that work can be done before
people are married, you can do so much work there before people are married.
But then the fourth pathway is the sensual pathway, where it's non-sexual touch.
So it's massages, or what, you know.
Holding hands, snuggling on the couch.
Yeah.
Hugging.
Hugging, kissing, anything that's not sexual.
The cool thing about that is we're starting to, not starting to, we're really getting
it.
So something hot and saucy, really saucy, that's really awesome for my sex life, is
giving Alana a massage.
Her preference, I'm like, babe, what do you want?
Because, you know, when we're serving each other in marriage, it's best when both people
get what they want, when they want it, and how they like it.
So, you know, give Alana, I'm like, what do you want?
She's like, oh, a full body massage would be great.
So get the oils out, she gets a full body massage, and then the real sexy thing is going
straight to sleep after it without initiating anything.
For Alana, that's a great night.
Like, she just loves that.
Like, that's a great night for her.
She's like, yes, that's awesome.
And for me, that's great in terms of delayed gratification.
Like, I reap really well from that.
It requires a lot of self-discipline, really, sometimes after giving your wife a full body
massage, and then, you know, just calmly going to sleep after that.
Requires a good bit of self-discipline.
But it's delayed gratification that works really, really well for me later on.
Because then she has nights when it's all about me, and she's all about, you know, like,
making sure that I'm getting everything that I want.
So that's the essential touch.
That's the forgotten pathway.
And then the next three are the make it or break it.
So finances is the first one.
So when we first started our marriage, I was working.
Yeah, Alana was working part-time for a bit.
But then we were also involved in ministry, and missions, and running conferences all
around the place.
So that didn't really work for her to have a job.
Because we were always, like, taking off.
We're running a camp here.
We're running a mission trip here.
We're running an event here.
And so she was always trying to have, like, time off.
So I was like, look, this doesn't work.
So we were like, well, we've got to chase the calling.
So we definitely prioritized the calling over finances.
So we were kind of in this place where, to me, my mindset was, you know,
like, ministry is a calling, not a career.
Like, this is all about radical faith, radical obedience, whatever it takes.
God will provide.
We'll just say yes.
And I love that attitude.
But there's a dynamic of finances where you can live in the provision,
the realm of provision or the realm of promise.
In the realm of provision, you'll have just what you need.
But the realm of promise is a place of abundance.
But we were years and years and years away from even, like,
being able to consistently put food on the table without stress.
So we had next to no income.
We lived really, really tight.
But we just didn't have income.
I still don't know how the back slipped.
We had a handful of supporters.
And then we had a credit card to try and bridge the gap,
which was every week and no idea of how we're going to pay the credit card.
And then we'd just have.
up a miracle sooner or later where God would pay off the credit card and we'd start the cycle
all over again. So financially, it was real pressure. And so if your money is a wonderful
servant but a terrible master, and like we said before, there's two ways that money can rule over
you. One is that money has a higher value to you than obedience to God. So in that sense, it didn't.
In terms of money being an idol, money was never an idol. That wasn't an issue that we had to deal
with. We didn't have to worry about that. But then the other area that money rules after you is you
just don't have any. If you don't have money, then money is your master because it dictates
what you can do, what you can't do, where you can go, where you eat, all of those things. Even if
you've got great faith, faith and money are all that wastes attention. I was like, God,
I want to start using my faith for bigger things than groceries. So that was another massive area
of pressure for us just being broke. Having said that, we saw crazy amounts of breakthrough. We
still stewarded hundreds of thousands of dollars for the kingdom, like mission projects going over
here, like people getting blessed all over here, but just us having nothing. Our personal finances
and our ministry finances were two very different. We just didn't have, we personally didn't have
money. We weren't taking stuff out. We were stewarding, we were helping other people,
projects also, but we're in this place of like, hell, God, you've got to break through so we can
make sure we've got food for our kids or whatever. So then the next one that's financial,
the next pathway is, where are we at, babe? Financial, no, no, we haven't, we're doing the,
oh yeah, no, no, it's directional, it's the leadership pathway. So the leadership pathway,
how are you making your decisions? So we were good. We shared that decision-making
role really well. It's just that one of the decisions that we made was about where we lived,
and that was Te Anau. And while Te Anau was a beautiful place, and I felt like I was called
there from the time I was 17, it was everything I wanted to do was just to be there, I wanted to die
there, I wanted to leave there. Alana, six months into our marriage was like, I miss my family.
I don't want to be here. I've got nothing here for me. This is your dream. Where do I fit in this?
So I was the closest, I didn't cry very often. Alana does all the crying for us, I did the
sulking. Yeah, she does the crying, I do the sulking. But it was pretty much the closest
to like crying I was at, like just kind of a real breaking point early on in our marriage,
because I was like, I'll give up my dream of everything that I've thought about and obsessed
about since I was 17 years old. I'm happy to lay that down so that we can make things
good for you and safe for you. Because I always said to her, you're the priority.
God can get anyone to lead a revival, God can get anyone to lead a church, but only I can be a husband
to my wife, and only I can be a father to my kids. And I actually feel like for us that was,
like looking back, that was quite a pivotal moment for him to say to me,
actually, if you say go, we'll go. And I mean, I said to him, I would never do that, because I
believe you're called here and I want God to speak. But him giving me that power was actually
quite helpful to me at that time. So Alana waited 10 years for God to speak
on leaving there, on leaving Te Anau. And it was hard for her the whole, like every day,
it was hard. And we had babies and she had no family. All of that was really, really difficult.
So the sixth pathway is the leadership pathway. So we had good decision-making ones,
like leadership pathway, it determines if you have a codependent relationship,
if you have a power struggle relationship, or if you have a powerful people relationship. So
we made some of our decisions really well together, but then other parts of our place,
in terms of like leadership and decision makings, we were power struggle and other parts,
we were kind of codependent, you know, in terms of like me being pouty and salty and not being a
powerful person trying to manipulate her into sex with a bad attitude. That's like codependent
behavior. You know, that's where someone's being the victim, playing the victim card. We didn't
really power struggle, like we didn't really fight, like in terms of fighting, arguments,
shelter, we've never shouted at each other. That's not really how we roll. We've never,
like I only punched her once, but that was in my sleep. And I was dreaming, I was dreaming that I
had all these rats in my pocket and then all these rats escaped out of my pocket. And I was trying to
catch these rats in my sleep. I was like, Oh my gosh, it's all these rats. And one of them in my
ran over over the top of me to the other side and I tried to grab it and I woke up as I like
reached over and grabbed this rat and like what I actually did was just
punched Alana really hard and I was like oh so I just pretended I was asleep
it's the only time you've been revived. It hasn't been a power struggle for us
but there was codependency there rather than powerful people. Yeah and while we had these
few areas that were so painful and so challenging the other areas of our life were amazing we had
so much fun and um just like life was great in other areas and but we had skeletons in the closet
right you know they could just go and I feel like this dark cloud would descend on us uh or on me
I feel like a dark cloud would descend on me my whole mind would get swallowed up with chaos
thinking and I'm like whoa and I would have to work insanely hard on the spiritual side to really
not be losing control to like you know to maintain stability so that for me was a real strength for
me is the spiritual side of things because I was like sweet well I'm going to have three hours of
the glory today and then I'll be able to sort my mind out but often you know my three hours in the
glory is just like sorting myself out um and so that was a big strength to our marriage is that
my coping mechanism wasn't porn we've never had porn in our marriage it wasn't other woman it
wasn't um eating although Ilana makes a lot of I had to ask her to stop making muffins
because it was you know there's too many side effects and front effects um so to reduce the
muffin quotas for a bit there you know like it wasn't it wasn't drugs alcohol anything like that
my my coping mechanism has always been prayer so I would go out and if I was you know if I
needed to do a little bit more soaking it'll be soaked out in prayer usually so we kind of reset
it and come by the time I've had three hours in the presence I was always going to be in a really
awesome headspace and you're like kind of come back wow let's go again so that side of things
was a real strength for our marriage I think actually me that Benji carried us through because
if it was um you know two people like me or Benji didn't have a great coping mechanism I actually
think we would have imploded and so for sure like Benji carried us through a lot of those years
so I thought I was way more awesome than I really was so that's why I thought I was so perfect and
I thought man this chick needs so I was like I'm gonna help her out and pray for her because she's
a mess I think you just think you've made me so one um and then the last pathway is the sexual
pathway which is where we were having our major meltdowns but I'd jump in bed wait for her to
turn up and I'm like man when she gets there she's going to be so unrecognizable wild um but that
never happened well maybe maybe you know we had three babies so maybe maybe not but um
that's where all our pressure was coming from was that sexual conversation um but what I wasn't
realizing is that I was you know like our whole marriage was chaos and that's what I was blind to
I was I only thought we had problems you know in terms of Lana doesn't want to have sex as much as
I want to have sex I thought that's what our problem was and so I was like that's easy she
just needs to sort her attitude out and let's just have sex you know we're having our conversation
was like you know like we could have had sex and you know be sleeping happily right now but
instead you're crying and I'm sulking and no one got so we've kind of created this marriage where
no one got what they wanted and no one got what they needed uh love major love deficit in our
marriage it was obviously like it's kind of funny because Lana's right we had so much love for each
other and so much fun when I had three hours in the world I would come back on fire and you know
have a great attitude and then you know sooner or later the skeletons would come out of the closet
and then we'd pick our pieces up again and go again and it'll be like the process and the
rigmarole of like the deviant conversations is going over and over again but um made it really
really challenging so it did get to that point eventually when I was just so desperate like
there's so much pain that he booked me a counsellor for my birthday it was it was
Dave Riddell and he was down for a bible school and he only had a couple of nights when he could
do stuff and he only had one night where he could fit us in and it happened to be Alana's birthday
so we had a two-hour session with Dave Riddell for Alana's birthday and she cried through most of it
um and his and I was stoked with his advice because he nailed her but he didn't actually
he usually nails everyone but he didn't nail me as a narcissist um but he nailed her and said you
guys need to just start scheduling sex nights um and sensual nights he nailed that he's like
you're going to separate sensual and sexual and you need to take care of her needs Benji
because you just take care of your needs
and you get over yourselves.
And I was like, yes, this sounds awesome.
And so we created an agreement,
like, yeah, we're going to do this.
But then we just lied to each other
and broke all of our promises and never actually kept it.
And it was at the end of that,
after going through all these promises,
I'm like, yes, it's a sex night.
And she's like, I'm not coming to bed for ages.
I was like, ah!
And so, so we created more chaos there.
And then so I would, you know,
and then I'd like give her a massage or whatever,
and then try to initiate sex.
And she'd be like, hey, you're not supposed to do that.
Not sex night.
I'm like, when are you supposed to have sex on a sex night?
And we're like, eh!
And so it was chaos.
So I think that's kind of probably
where we're going to leave today, isn't a mess,
because next week we're going to like start
like unpacking how things started getting like tidied up.
You know, like what actually started to happen
that we were able to start figuring things out.
But really what I, what the issue was really
in our marriage was like the simple fix happened
for our marriage when I got to the point of extreme pain
and extreme desperation for solutions
that I managed to open up my eyes to the possibility
that I might be contributing something
towards the issues in our marriage.
And that little kind of crack in the blindness
started to open up to a space where I was able
to start taking extreme ownership for my mess
and where I was sulking.
And we'll close with this, but once we started,
I started taking extreme ownership from my mess
and stopped blaming Alana, what we found is
that our marriage completely transformed
and she didn't have to do much and I had to do all the work.
Right, she didn't really have to change anything
that she was doing very much.
As soon as I started taking ownership of myself
and my issues and my sulking and my bad atmosphere,
as soon as I started taking extreme ownership for that,
all the pressure started coming off all around
our life everywhere else.
And it started to give me the space
to move out of survival mode.
Yeah, and then what do you know,
little by little, everything changed.
And we'll talk more about that next week,
like how things changed.
But that's it for now.
We might even start off with a Q&A.
We'll, yeah, hopefully next week we'll do a Q&A.
If not, the week after, we'll just dictate it to,
I will dedicate it to Q&A the next session otherwise.
So I hope that's been fun for you guys.
If you do have any questions,
feel free to drop them in the comments,
put them on Facebook so we can kind of like
start creating a database of questions.
But that's it for now.
And Niamh, did I say it right?
Niamh?
Niamh, Niamh.
How about you pray to wrap it up for us again,
because we love your prayers.
You just like that Irish accent, don't you?
So much, so much.
Father God, we thank you for this couple,
for what you've brought them through.
We thank you for the little nuggets
that they are going to be revealing in the next few weeks.
I bless you, Lord, for the honesty,
because in that space of truth and vulnerability,
the miracles can begin to happen.
And I thank you that in their being honest,
they opened the door for others to be honest
with themselves and with each other
and above all with you, Lord.
And so I thank you for that time.
I thank you for their testimony,
for the journey they've been on.
And I just pray that you take the obvious and multiply it,
just as you multiplied the loaves and fishes,
that you multiply it to become a door opener for others.
And I pray that in Jesus' name, amen.
Amen.
Thanks, guys.
Love you all heaps, bless you.
And same time next week, Friday, 10 a.m. New Zealand time,
we'll be here.
So see you later, bye-bye.