It's sort of indefinite at the moment,
but we're thinking maybe another month.
That's rough.
Craziness.
I don't think we know how good we've had it.
I'll just say a little hello and welcome to everyone.
And I'll just make sure that it's working in the tech,
but feel free to keep chatting there.
Oh, yes, it's working.
And even has the right name on it.
We use some streaming software,
Sebastian and I,
and sometimes it says that it's Sebastian going live,
and it's kind of funny.
I was live yesterday as Sebastian.
How are you guys doing?
Good.
Good?
What's happening?
Just recovering from my workout here, Alana, eh?
Yeah, so Alana,
yeah, that's why we're a little bit late today,
so that Alana could get a gym session.
And so what do you do at the gym, Kat?
I do a less meal class.
It's a step class.
Sweet.
How's yours been going?
Yeah, good.
We're doing boxing.
Ooh.
Great prep for this conversation.
Yeah, I need my skills.
Yes, I've been doing some boxing as well,
so we'll be a fair fight.
I feel like, especially as a girl,
you never get the opportunity
to hit something as hard as you can.
Oh, yes.
And I know I never have,
and so it's quite a good feeling
to just hit something as hard as you can.
Right, interesting.
Yeah.
Cool, fam.
Well, hey, why don't we get,
Raymond, why don't you pray for us as we jump in?
So it's gonna be a fun session.
This one, we are chatting about
the sensual and the sexual pathways,
so that'll be a bit of fun.
So, Raymond, why don't you pray for us,
and then we'll jump into it.
Oh, thank you, Father God,
for this wonderful time to just come and,
yeah, just spend this time with Benji and Alana,
and Lord, we really thank you
that you designed relationships for
not just our pleasure, but your pleasure,
and for those people around us, too, Lord,
that we can be loved in a more powerful way.
And Lord, we just really thank you
that you have a plan for each of us,
and that we are not just knitted
to our partner, but to all believers around us.
And so we really thank you for that.
Lord, we thank you for this time
just to open our hearts and our ears,
and help us be a little bit vulnerable
if that's what we need to be.
And, yeah, Holy Spirit, just work in us in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Very cool.
Well, thanks for that, Raymond.
This is gonna be dynamic.
Dave, how are you doing?
Good to have you jumping in.
Hey.
Hello, Luke.
Good stuff.
Good to see you.
So I was just trying to think
where we should start on this one.
So this session is gonna be a bunch of fun.
It is the,
I was just, I actually just pulled up the wrong document.
I was gonna,
here we go.
Oh yeah, I've got it.
I'm just gonna just start actually with some quotes,
because we're doing the sensual and the sexual pathways,
but I thought it'd be interesting
just to do a little bit of some sex stats to start with,
because there's some interesting sex stats.
Has anyone checked out that chapter in the book?
Has anyone seen that?
The sex chapter?
Oh, you haven't.
Okay, well, let me share some interesting sex statistics
sex-tistics with you.
I'm just scrolling through finding that point,
but we're gonna talk about female orgasms for a moment,
give you some statistics on that,
and then also give you some statistics on porn,
which are a little bit interesting.
And then we'll just see what happens from there.
We'll talk a little bit about the five love languages,
and we'll just get a bit chatty, really.
So, first set of statistics.
Oh, that's right.
It's right at the end.
I was thinking we were right there, but it's not.
it the fun thing is if you're reading this book it's the last chapter right so um if you want to
just skip straight to the real juicy bit then you can just go right to the last to the end yeah skip
right to the last last chapter um so oh and that chapter's kind of fun it starts off with our
honeymoon i'll give you one little line from the book um about our honeymoon uh i'll read this
from the honeymoon and then it might you might decide oh i might read that chapter um so it
says we both married as virgins i'm the only guy that alana has ever kissed the most physical i'd
ever been with was kissing a few girls neither of us had a porn issue when it came to masturbation
as an 18 year old i felt like i was addicted then one day god challenged me to stop i had
nothing against the idea i just didn't think it was possible my immediate reaction was actually
god that's out of my hands but that wasn't entirely true god responded by releasing a
grace on my life that set me free that very day just like that it wasn't an issue for me anymore
that didn't mean i had no sex drive i did but by the grace of god i had more self-control than sex
drive uh we'll leave it oh hang on when it came to our honeymoon we were complete sex rookies
we had kept our boundaries all the way i hadn't been touching or looking alana's bum vagina or
breast and she hadn't been touching or looking at my bum or penis everything was about to be
a surprise i'm not usually very good at keeping surprises from alana even the day that we got
engaged she said to her friends i'll show you my ring when i get back i don't even know how she
knew i had the ring because i thought i was being so sneaky she wasn't even that surprised
when a helicopter landed picked us up and dropped us at the top of a mountain where i proposed
but i did manage to surprise her with our honeymoon remember we didn't have much money
but we had a lot of faith i had booked two weeks at a five-star hotel on the gold coast in australia
i had no money for it but god said do it then after i'd done it someone said they wanted to
pay for our honeymoon accommodation yay jesus right after we got married and left the reception
while we were driving to the hotel for our first night together the atmosphere in the car was
tangible with an amazing sense of holiness that had us both in awe it is one of the most precious
memories we share preparing for marriage and actually having a sex life felt so naughty and
fun and exciting wow we read some christian books on preparing for sex with diagrams and explicit
directions that did nothing for help us to calm down before the wedding one book even gave explicit
instructions on how ladies could do sex stretches to prepare for the big event now honeymoon was
fantastic we stayed in luxury we went on great adventures we had a blast and had sex for the
very first time lots of sex we were very happy and then uh basically after that it goes downhill
in the chapter but uh um there's a big heading here that says no sex for ages um and beneath that
the subtitle is something beneath that is during the most chaotic season in our marriage we would
go months on end without sex um i'm still racing through to get you guys to these sex statistics
oh one of the big things on there is seven common sex issues in marriage so one is affairs
um one is porn here we go who's ready for some sexistics we're gonna start with porn yep
now i see um jules connecting here this is probably the first thing she's going
to hear is me talking about porn i'm not sure if she's joined alive before
um so i'll just wait for her to get on here so we can say hello before she just hears us
ranting about crazy stuff so um very good you guys feeling okay
okay yeah feeling good jules welcome
i see you just joining in how you doing
oh that's good can you hear us okay jules
yeah great well i just wanted to say a little hello and a welcome where are you joining in from
today uk the uk fantastic whereabouts in the uk uh northampton northampton lovely well jules i
wanted to say a little hello because um we're in we're talking about uh so this is the seven
sacred pathways to intimacy training and this session we are jumping in on the central pathway
and the sexual pathway so we're just
we were at, we were just joining in, I wanted to pause and just say hello because you're just
joining in as we're talking on some statistics around porn, and I didn't want you just to join
in and us not to say hello, and then the first thing you hear is me just talking about porn,
but we're just going to look at some porn statistics in the States and how they've been
impacting marriages, and then we've got a whole lot of other really, really significant,
interesting, lots of science, and yeah, it's really going to be a really intriguing session,
so let's go with some porn statistics, let's try and get you guys involved,
see if you can guess this, okay, so let's try and get you, okay, so I'll give you a
couple of stats and then I'll get you to try and guess something, so 57% of pastors in America said
that porn addictions were the single most damaging issue in their church, how interesting is that?
57% of pastors in America said that porn was the single most damaging issue in their church,
that's, that's massive, right, that's huge, that's, wow, and then 69% of pastors stated that
porn has had a negative impact on their church, so a tiny 7% of pastors said that their church
provides any type of support to people struggling with porn, interesting, eh? 57% of churches say
it's their most damaging issue, but only 7% actually do anything about it, like, should we talk
about it? Nah, let's not talk about it, even though 69% of churches say it's damaging their church in
some way, only 7% of churches actually address the topic in a significant way, pretty crazy, right?
So that leaves at least 50% of churches where porn is their biggest issue in their church,
and yet they aren't doing anything about it at all. Now here's a little bit of shocking
behind the scenes info of why that might be the case, 68% of men who attend church regularly
admit to observing pornography on a consistent basis, 76% of Christian young adults between the
ages of 18 to 24 said that they search for and watch porn on a consistent basis, how crazy is
that? 76% of 18 to 24 year olds are happy to admit that they search that out on a regular
basis. So here's what, okay, so I want you to try and guess this now, what percentage of pastors
admitted that they used porn regularly? Have a try and have a guess on what percentage.
Nev, welcome, you've come in right at the juicy bit, sorry, Pat? Let's try and have a guess on what percentage.
Nev, welcome, you've come in right at the juicy bit.
82%.
How many? 82.
82, he has my guess.
Wow, that's a lot of porn. Okay, so that's a guess there, one guess is 82%.
Anyone else got a guess on what percentage of pastors were admitting to regular usage of porn?
50.
50 from Kat, 50 from Raywin, anyone else got a guess there?
Okay, well, you guys both got it actually, it said just over 50% of pastors admitted to observing
porn on a regular basis, which is interesting, right, because that's probably why 50% of
churches where porn is their biggest issue aren't doing anything about it, it's because the pastor
hasn't sorted it out in his own life, so let's not talk about it. Oh, crazy, right? That's crazy.
Now, this survey as well, it's done by the Barna Group and also by Covenant Eyes,
so if you check out the book, you can actually see, you know, it's got the link to their website,
so you can go and check out more details there if you want to. 55% of married men and 25%
of married women admitted to watching porn on at least a monthly basis.
That's pretty dynamic, eh? At least, you know, that's crazy, because sometimes people think
this is just a guy's thing, but 25% of married women getting into porn on a monthly basis,
pretty significant number. 47% of American families acknowledge that porn is a consistent
problem in their household. 56% of American divorces record one spouse as having an
obsessive interest in porn sites.
56% of American divorces. That's huge, right? 56% of American divorces record one spouse
as having an obsessive interest in porn sites. That is massive.
So that's the interesting stats, right? Like crazy, actually really like tragic.
Now let's give you some other stats on orgasms, female orgasms.
We'll talk a moment about male orgasms as well, but
oh, here we go. So there's a whole section on health issues that reduce or eliminate
sex in a marriage. So painful sex and health issues is the topic in this part of the chapter.
So let's jump into this. Painful sex. Basically, it says there that a bunch of people had painful
sex, but it shouldn't be. Problems with orgasm. Let's check this out. So during sex, 95% of men
orgasm. So that's like 95% of men orgasm on sex on average. And have a guess at the average
number of women who orgasm during vaginal sex alone. Have a guess of what's the percentage
of women who they have sex and they have an orgasm. What would you guess be? Percentages?
30. 30? Anyone else have a guess on that?
Come on, team. Don't be shy, Raewyn. Your mother wasn't.
Yeah, so I'll go with the 50, just the 49%. So I'll go with that this time. 49%? Okay.
Sorry, technically challenged. No idea, actually. That's why it's called a guess.
Oh, I don't know. Between 40 and 50. Yeah, something like that.
Okay. Nev, got a guess for us? Jules, do you want to get on the action? Everyone's welcome.
30. Pardon? 30%.
About 30%. Okay. Anyone else wants to, that's fine. You've also got the chat,
if you want to drop anything there. Let's check our Facebook world as well.
And just in case there's anyone dropping things there. No, no one's guessing on Facebook
right now. It's going to be like 10% or something.
Okay. How much?
Is it going to be like 2%? It's 25%. 25% of women
come to an orgasm through vaginal sex. And 10% to 15% of women never reach orgasm at all.
So that's the stats they were saying. And all those in between only reach orgasm if stimulated
by fingers, tongues, or other sex equipment. Interesting. A little interesting. I almost
thought about whether we should put something in here about Christian sex toys, because I was
hanging out with a Christian counselor, and she was making all sorts of jokes about sex toys.
And I looked up Christian sex toys, and there are so many websites dedicated to Christian
sex toys. There is a stack. So if you're looking, you're not going to have any trouble
at all finding Christian websites with sex toys. There's masses of them. I was just like,
oh, wow, there's a lot of... That's interesting. So yeah, there you go. There's some stats. 10%
to 15% of women never reach orgasm at all. 25% get there through sex. And all those in between.
So what does that leave? That would leave... I'm just working on my math skills here. That would
be 60% to 65% of women will only get there if they are actually receiving more than just vaginal sex.
They'll need fingers, tongues, or other equipment involved in the process.
Erectile dysfunction. Here's a little bit of... We'll put this onto the guys for a little bit.
Erectile dysfunction increases with age. The Journal of Sexual Medicine published it
that 26% of men under the age of 40 have issues with erectile dysfunction.
Yeah and that number is increased for those who are engaged in porn.
Premature ejaculation. The International Journal of Impotence reports that up to 30% of men
worldwide suffer from premature ejaculation. So that's a lot eh? Those are some high,
those are some really interesting statistics I thought when actually just looking into
topic of just the physical side of things and the health challenges around sex and
that. So any thoughts on that from you guys? We'll just open it up here for a moment. Thoughts,
responses? I just wanted to pop in that in terms of the porn, we never really,
like in terms of exposure, had anything with the family or anything. And when we went back
to New Zealand from living overseas for eight years and my oldest daughter was 14, her biggest
issue was that all her friends, both boys and girls, were addicted to porn. And it was just
like, well you can imagine what it's like for a girl that's never been exposed to anything like
that and on a daily basis that was what the conversations were about. That's what they were
looking at on their phones. The girls particularly were all into these, I don't know, not just
pornographic but violent novels. And it just, yeah, it just blew our minds that it's, you know,
that this is all starting at a really young age. And you can see from the statistics it actually
sets them up for failure in the long run, which is heartbreaking when the majority of them are
doing it from such a young age. Yeah, I mean it doesn't help that almost every teenager has one
of these in their pockets. They can get internet wherever they go, like we didn't have access to
that when we were teenagers. So yeah, it's definitely a real challenge for today's generation.
I remember when I was a teenager, you know, you go to the, you know, Video Easy, you go to the video
shop, right, and there's always that R18 booth kind of inside there. It's kind of a little bit dark and
mysterious and they've got all their nasty-ass porn movies in there. It was like, oh, this kind of,
you know, when we did watch porn a couple of times, not that it wasn't really a big thing for me
growing up, but a couple of times one of my mates, you know, like stole his dad's dodgy porn videos
and we watched a bit of porn. It was like, it wasn't really that appealing for me. I'd rather
like watch an action anyway, but just the access compared to now is, you know, and it was
actually difficult to access porn. It wasn't just like, oh yeah, just grab it anytime, but now
porn is everywhere. And there's soft porn everywhere too. I mean, you pick up a magazine
or there's an ad on TV and there's someone in their underwear, you know, massive larger-than-life
billboards, jockey billboards and things like that, like that's really desensitizing us to
what should be kept private. Yeah, I think in the beginning when bikinis were coming out,
I think the way that they started to do that was they had to pay prostitutes to wear bikinis.
To change the cultural norm. And I think they were even like, what?
That's kind of funny concept day. Now, whereas like, now like all, you know, everyone's going to
get their bikini on. I've even like, I just once actually saw this photo of me in one of my
friends' photo albums. It was me wearing a top, a pink bikini top. I was like, what? Because I couldn't
remember the photo being taken. Then I had to like really jog my memory. I actually were at the
beach one time and I just chucked one of my friends' bikini tops. I was like, yeah. But
just there's a lot of desensitization around the culture. Like in the last, what, you know,
50 years, things are going crazy on that whole area of sex, sexuality. Anyone got any stories?
What are you seeing? What's like really in your face at the moment in that whole area of sex, sexuality?
For me, it's not the issue of sex. It is the symptom rather than the cause.
There's certainly, obviously the spiritual climate has,
there have been many doors opened to all of that,
which is self-perpetuating
and everything that you're saying there.
But actually, deeper than that again,
there is a huge lack of real relationship,
a lack of understanding how to have intimacy,
a vulnerability, real genuine connection that is satisfying.
And when we haven't got real genuine connection
of all types that isn't satisfying,
then we look for the quick fix,
which obviously sex is an instant quick fix
and a sense of satisfaction and a sense of achievement
or a sense of belonging,
depending on whether you're male or female,
which side you're coming from or whatever.
But sex and it being out of control is certainly an issue,
but feeding it and underlying it
is the lack of real connection, real emotional,
just intimacy at every level.
And one of the things that drew me to Raising Royalty
was that you guys could go there
because if Christians can model that,
rather than, oh, everything's perfect
and we're all smiling and smile of denial,
as they say and all of that,
that if we can actually model true connection
and true togetherness and oneness
and yeah, here I am with all my flaws
and you're gonna be there
and you're not just gonna say a nice prayer and shut me up
and let's be real.
And if you have that kind of real living alive relationship,
you're less drawn to the quick fix
and to the instant satisfaction,
which is just like comfort eating really.
And of course it's addictive
and it keeps going on around and around
and you don't ever get what you really need.
So yeah, the sex is a huge issue,
but this other stuff is-
Yeah.
Yeah, lack of value for each other and ourselves.
Yeah.
I think that's actually interesting.
So here's a, I wasn't planning on going here
and today we'll probably cut this off just after 1130
and then we'll do a couple of parts.
We'll do a couple of parts to this one, probably.
But I think that, you know, like here's a story.
A friend of mine, he was away speaking somewhere
on a ministry trip and he came out of the hotel room
and then the lady who was doing the cleaning
came and said, or it was one of the hotel staff was like,
hey, do you want to go back in your room and have sex?
And he just burst out laughing at her.
Not like, not to be rude, but he was just like,
the offer was so tragic in his eyes, you know,
compared to, he was just like, you know,
you don't know who I've got, you know,
waiting for me at home.
You know, why would I throw that away
for like this really tragic offer
that you're giving me right now?
He just burst out laughing.
He's like, man, this is hilarious.
There's no way that I'm going to take up that type of offer
when my amazing wife is at home waiting for me.
But I think that what that highlights to me is,
like in contrast, when we're in Thailand
doing ministry in the red light areas,
there's all these guys with wedding rings
walking around with, you know,
16, 15, 14 year old Thai girls and younger,
you know, like when we're over there,
the crazy thing over there is that, you know,
we do a bunch of stuff in the pedophile areas
where people are going there and they're getting babies
and kids and it's just, it's horrendous.
But, you know, and so many of them as well, married people.
So you're like, oh, what's the difference here?
Like, and it's exactly what you're saying, Niamh,
you know, it's actually the actual connection.
It's actually the firm relationship that's already there
because if there's a healthy relationship,
then like, then, you know,
when someone makes an offer like that, it bounces off.
Whereas when someone's in an unhealthy relationship,
they're already looking.
You know, they're already looking for another,
oh, I wonder, like, I wonder where I can get this need met.
It's like, hmm, just kind of like,
they've already got that opening.
And here's what I was going to say,
like, that I wasn't going to bring it into,
but it's the whole dynamic of what's the real root cause
as opposed to treating symptoms.
Because so much of our mindsets in terms of even Christians,
the psychology that we have is to treat symptoms
as opposed to root causes.
And it goes all the way back to Genesis
where you see in Genesis, you see Adam and Eve, right?
They turn their back on God in one conversation with Satan.
But if you look at that in the context
of a healthy relationship with my friend
who had a really.
relationship already, like his wife, him and his wife, their relationship is strong, someone comes
along, makes him an offer, it just bounces off, he laughs. So if Adam and Eve actually had a really
good relationship with their father right then in that moment and Satan came along and made them an
offer, they would have just laughed, right? But the issue actually goes deeper. So if you look in
Genesis 3, you see how orphans respond when Satan makes them an offer, which is they say yes and
they take the bait and they go and do something ridiculous, whereas if you look in Matthew 3
in the temptation of Jesus, Matthew 4, he shows in Matthew 4 what it looks like when a son gets
tempted and how a son responds, and a son responds like every single time Satan got a beat down
and a son walks in victory in every context. So see the issue with the church is they say that
the issue was the fall, but the fall was a symptom of a pre-existing issue, otherwise you wouldn't
have had the fall. But it's just, it's evidence of this whole mindset, which is what you're
highlighting, is that everyone's going around trying to treat symptoms and no one's talking
about the root cause, which is the root cause for Adam and Eve is the same root cause for us,
which is the fact that they didn't know their father and they didn't know their identity
in the very beginning, and that's what led to the fall. If they had been firm in their revelation
of the father and firm in their identity, then they would have looked like Jesus, because Jesus
gave the example of what it looks like to be firm in your revelation of the father, what it looks
like to be firm in your identity, and that's where no one's going, you know, and because the church
neglects to teach identity and neglects to teach sonship, they haven't dealt with the core
psychology and the core identity issues, and so when we come to marriage and we're trying to deal
with our issues in marriage or we're trying to deal with over 50% of pastors, why are over 50%
of pastors jerking off the porn? It's because they haven't dealt with their identity stuff,
you know, they're still stuck in all this orphanology and it doesn't work to treat those
things in the secret places, so like our porn addictions, so yeah, it's a really interesting
thought that you brought up, Nev, any thoughts to follow that?
Benji, preach it, just preach it, it's just so good, what you're saying is just so good,
it's just, I'm trying hard not to whoop here, really, honestly, I am, it's just so good.
Not to what?
Whoop, you know, woohoo!
Oh, you feel free, you're allowed to whoop, you're allowed to whoop,
you can whoop as much as you like, whooping's really good.
And what struck me is, I don't know if you've read Blake Healy, Blake Healy, he's Bethel, not
I've heard of him but I haven't read his book.
It's interesting to read his book because he has, you know, like he's a seer but he literally sees
demons and angels in the same way that you and I see people, and so he just has this
extraordinary gift and had to do a huge journey around how to handle it before, in any case.
So it's very graphic what he says because it's just visual, you know, but he really made,
in one of his books, not the original one I think, he wrote a book called Indestructible,
and he talks about, again, seeing demons coming, attacking girls on their way to Sunday school
type of thing, and he just sees them in that bubble where they're in a place of health,
where they know their identity in effect, and this thing comes at them and he's going,
and it just, it's bounced off, it can't get near them, because they are just secure in who they
are. They're children of the king and they're going off to their, you know, children's ministry,
and nothing can get near them, and he just, he's making the same point you're making,
but in the visual, if you like, and it's just so good. So preach it, brother.
Thanks, and actually, I mean, the whole dynamic of the book, The Seven Sacred Pathways to Intimacy,
all starts with identity. So we've, you know, the last several sessions we looked at that,
you know, the foundational pathways, which was identity, emotions, and intellectual intimacy. So
sensual and sexual. I just read to you guys a little bit about, you know, from the start of
the sexual chapter there, which is the last chapter. His favorite chapter. Oh yeah. But
I read to you about our honeymoon. Our honeymoon was awesome. We had sex for the first time,
and then we had lots of sex following that, which was lots of fun, and then we got home.
And it was, it became absolutely tragic.
So, and I mean, it wasn't great.
And then I kind of like, we started, you know, if you've been tracking with it, you know, we've had this conversation so many times between Lana and I about, I'll initiate, she won't be interested, I'll trigger, that'll cause her to trigger, then I'll trigger back, and we're just going to get stuck in this nasty cycle, right?
So, in the worst of that, it was months that we went without having sex.
So, I'm not sure exactly, but I think the longest stint was probably, I don't know, seven or so months or something without sex, which was like, pretty annoying.
Probably when I was pregnant.
You were pregnant.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember those things reasonably well.
It's just always me.
But I'm like, babe, did you realize it's been a week since we've had sex?
And she'd be like, no, I had no idea.
We just had it, didn't we?
And I'm like, no, no, it's been 11 and a half days.
Did you not realize?
And six hours and 43 minutes and 10 seconds.
Yeah.
And Lana's like, well, I thought we just had sex.
And I'm like, well, no, actually.
So, one of the interesting things, right?
So, we're going to talk about the sensual and the sexual.
We won't cover heaps more today.
We'll do a little bit, and then we'll jump back into it next week.
But we read the, well, you know, you guys all are familiar, right, with the five love languages?
So, the sensual pathway, we call that the forgotten pathway, because in the five love languages book,
even though they highlight the fact that there's a difference between, you know,
like that sensuality is a big part of the love language,
I think that for a lot of people, especially like myself,
read the five love languages and just assume physical touch is like you want a happy ending.
To me, that's where all good physical touch should have a happy ending.
Whereas if you're a sensual minded person, like just a cuddle.
I just want to hold your hand. I just want to cuddle you.
I just want to sit next to you on the couch.
Or I might just want to like walk past you.
Oh, that's great.
And then he's like, oh.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm sure that's supposed to have a happy ending.
You know, you're going somewhere with this, right?
So, we really, well, for myself, anyway, I hadn't made the distinction between the sensual and the sexual that there is.
And for me, it's because I just love both, right?
I'm like, yes, this is fantastic.
Like I'll suck up, I'll have all the sensual and then I'll have all the sexual and I'll be absolutely stoked.
I'm like, yes, that's all great.
But in the process of our chaos and me triggering and punishing Alana and all of those things.
And then even after we got counseling and they said, okay, schedule six nights.
This will be really good.
We did that and we scheduled six nights.
We scheduled sensual nights, but then we lied to each other.
We broke our promises and we didn't keep it.
And then we both punished each other some more.
And it was like, ah, this is a mess.
So, ended up creating this really, like for Alana, the dynamic of sex became an unsafe place.
Well, the dynamic of touch.
Yeah, touch.
Because his equation is touch equals sex.
And so, I avoided touch at all costs.
Yeah.
Which was a bit of a fail for me.
Means he got no touch.
And then I would moan and I'd like whine.
I'd get my victim on.
I'm like, you never touched me.
Yeah, because I don't want to have sex.
But then I'd moan a little bit more and then she would touch me.
And I'd be like, yes, she wants to have sex.
But she was just being sensual.
And so, we spent way too many years.
Figuring that all out.
But I think one of the things that people often don't realize is that there's a sensual.
The sensual pathway is its own pathway.
And the sexual pathway is its own pathway.
And every person has their own level of preference in that.
And it's funny as well because I've got some friends, you know, female friends.
And they're like, well, our marriage is like the same as yours.
Except that the chick is the, is the sex freak.
And the husband just likes the sensual.
You know, so it's, it's, it's.
There's a different dynamic in every relationship.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying is like,
everyone's going to have their own place where they sit in the spectrum of
what do you like?
It's all going to be different for each couple.
It's not like the guys are like this and girls are like this.
It's not like everyone's in their own space.
So any, any thoughts on that, guys?
Anyone want to chat something out?
Anyone got a story?
story. Good to see you guys from Whangarei there. You guys are muted, I can't hear you.
G'day. What you said was the sensual field of human experiences is its own pathway and the sexual thing is its own pathway.
Well, I kind of think that's a bit sort of, I'm blanking my thinking. I think that they are related together. I think you can't have one without the other. You can't have good sex without an understanding of sensuality.
Well, it will help. They are two different pathways. So for example, I can give Alana a massage without humping her leg.
Oh, now I get it.
They do overlap.
Oh, yes. Put it in those terms I understand now.
Yeah, see that made it clear, didn't it?
You're very open about it, aren't you? Wow, I love that honesty. Right on.
So yeah, the sensual pathway is, that's all the things like holding hands, cuddling, snuggling, massage. Yeah, so those things are great, but they're not sexual, you know.
They can lead to sexual.
They can, totally. So Alana's preference, right, is that she would, if it's, because we will do different times when it's, you know, like she's going to look after me and I'm going to look after her. We just, it's about finding out what each other, you know, we talked about this last week in the intellectual.
It's finding out exactly, you know, you get to be that world expert on what your partner wants, likes, you know, what they want, when they want it and how they like it.
You get to be the person who understands that more than anyone. And so we just try and say, hey, what do you want? When do you want it? How do you like it the most? And so for Alana, the classic is a full body oil massage and that's her happy place.
And because like our sex life is way better than it's ever been. I'd say it's pretty good. Yes. And he's getting what he needs and I'm getting what I need, but I don't need sex.
To be honest, like I could take it or leave it even now, even though it's good on my ass. So for me, having that sensual pathway is important because it's respecting the fact that I need more than just the sexual touch, if that makes sense.
To me, the sensual touch is more important for me.
Yeah, totally. So it's just that's the whole dynamic of knowing that mastering the intellectual pathway is you become really curious. And then there's another really cool part as well, which is probably more to do with like communication, right, which is being really good negotiators.
So you've got to be curious, right? And you've got to be vulnerable. But you've also got to be really, really good negotiators and really generous negotiators. So if you're not a really generous negotiator, things can get tricky. And this is one of the things that's changed up for us is we just got more generous with each other.
You can live in a love deficit, or you can live in a love overflow. And that's really going to depend on how generous you are in your negotiations.
And that for us has been an upward spiral. Whereas previously, we were a downward spiral. So I feel like that generosity is kind of built and built and built to the point where it's completely mutual, we can anticipate the other person sort of what they need, and that kind of thing. And that's an upward spiral that just keeps going up.
So, yeah, I think like, we through those two pathways, we've learned to respect each other, and that and what each of us needs out of it.
Yeah. So anyone else, some thoughts here from you guys on sensual sexual pathways, anyone had trouble with this, or it's been perfect for everyone. No one's ever had any, any issues. Everyone's had the best orgasms of their life. They've never had any issues with porn. Everything's just been perfect. If that's you, then we definitely want to hear your secrets.
Otherwise, someone check out some stories of how things are in your world or.
I just think it's just, I mean, I just can't. My, my husband's just amazing, because he's just really linked. I mean, it's been a little bit like this, you know, you kind of learn and you grow and you learn. It's just amazing in there.
Yeah.
You know, I went through a stage of postnatal depression and really, I just wanted to cuddle
most of the day, and all I was after, you know, and he really, it was hard for him,
but like you said, he was really generous, generous, I can't say it, with, you know,
giving me all the love and support I needed at that moment without, you know, it was hard
on him because there were periods of time, you know, months sometimes where I just, you
know, I just didn't have the energy, I felt totally sacked of all emotion in a lot of
ways.
So, yeah, so I think that generosity is really key, and it's been by specifics, when Chris
is really busy, he's very, you know, like if he's very, there's a lot on at school,
I have to, you know, I have to allow him to be in that place, he's very linear, you know,
he finds it kind of almost feel like sometimes his husband on the holidays and teacher at
school time, but we understand that about each other, and it's just been able to communicate
with each other, like you're saying, about what our needs are, and we get, we've got
better and better at it as time's gone on.
Yeah, I think that's a really valid point that there is an even flow and sometimes it
requires one person to be given 95 or even 100% and the other person just receiving.
And I think like for us, there were times in the past, especially post baby, where I
actually needed to be given 100% and that didn't happen, which led to like some of our
darkest days, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Yeah, like when one person's totally at rock bottom, but the other person, like me, I was
like, punishing me for being at rock bottom.
Yeah, like, you know, and so you just get that law of diminishing returns, everything
just starts spiraling down.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And it's just, I mean, it gets messy, but it's actually the messy times that actually
often prompt you.
I think you've talked about it, Benji, haven't you, you know, like you get to the rock bottom
where you've got to actually do something about this because it's harming us, you know,
and it's that, yeah, it's that communication, which is really great.
And I've always been, you know, Chris always talks about, you know, like I am a love and
touch person.
I think we watched something just before, or you know, we did lots of very similar story
to you guys.
So in so many ways, read lots of books, had no experience before we entered into marriage
and, yeah, it was just, it's just that understanding of each other has been so good.
There was something else I was going to say there, but it's gone now, it might come back
to me.
Yeah, no worries.
I just see a question here coming from Jules.
Jules said, what do you think about people with Asperger's who are intelligent, but come
share themselves and be intimate?
Surely it starts with intimate, vulnerable conversations before anything else.
So a bit of a dead end.
So anyone, thoughts on, thoughts on that from everyone?
I can comment on that one because I know quite a few people who are very, very mild touch
of autism.
Not at the stage where they might get a full diagnosis, but there's just a little bit of
that there.
And I just, in my experience, we're engaging with people and it's like, if you picture
a comb on the top, it's a functional bit is all grand.
And then the next bit is deeper emotional connection that Jules is talking about there,
but there's a bit deeper again, where there's an intimacy of connection that people who
have a slight touch of autism, I can't speak for people who have a lot of it, can connect
at a very profound level, almost below the level of emotional processing.
But it can cause huge problems, because there's that middle bit where the meeting isn't happening,
and it really takes huge commitment to actually bridge that gap, because one person will want
the communication to be verbal, and the person with the autism, even if it's slight, can
do tremendous emotional connection at a very visceral level, but they can't do the verbal
bit and the emotional processing bit.
So yeah, it's a tough one.
It's a really tough one.
Yeah.
I think...
Yeah.
Someone's going to jump in there.
Did you guys have something to add?
Yes.
I have ASD.
They used to call it Aspergers, but I've had a really difficult time in my life just forming
ordinary social relationships and communicating socially with people to begin with.
I was diagnosed late in my life, I was in my 50s, and so I look back at all the maladjustments,
and I see, okay, God made me in a special way.
So I have to work within that, and there's no other path for me to find fulfillment in
relationship, but to look at the way my brain is wired and look at how I tend to respond
to life on a daily basis, and I think that's the key.
But you're also good at learning things, right?
Yes.
That's cool.
Yeah.
I'm happy with that.
What do you do as a trade?
I have been unemployed, but I have worked in a hospital, I've been to university, I've
got a degree.
At the moment, I've been doing some farm work and garden work for friends.
Let's talk about your degree for a second.
Was that hard work, getting a degree?
The actual subject matter wasn't hard for me.
It was the social environment and the anxiety of getting assignments in on time, all that
kind of thing.
Performance anxiety, exam anxiety, all that kind of thing.
Yeah.
I guess what I'm just trying to highlight there is, there are some principles that if
we don't put them in place, like what we're talking about in the Seven Sacred Pathways,
if we don't put those principles in place, then we're always going to have friction in
relationships.
Either a friction in our relationship or complete devastation of a relationship.
That's if we don't implement the principles that God's put in place for how to have great
relationships.
You can't neglect the principles and expect to have a great relationship.
The thing as well is that a lot of people neglect the principles just because they don't
understand them, or they don't even know that they're there.
Even if you've got a level of Asperger's, you can still learn principles that will completely
change the game.
Now, it might be a little bit harder, but what I'm saying is, it's not as hard as being
unaware of the principles.
Okay.
So, that's why Hosea says, my people perish for lack of knowledge.
So, you've got one level, which is you don't understand the principles of the Seven Sacred
Pathways.
If you don't understand those, then you are set up not just for friction, but potential
destruction in your relationship, because you're not even aware of the principles that
create intimacy in a relationship.
So that's one level, is just not being aware of it.
And I think that a lot of people actually in that place, I would say that most people
aren't taught, where do you go?
Even churches don't teach things like the Seven Sacred Pathways.
You can get in church, we got some good communication stuff by Danny Silk.
We got the five love languages.
Interesting CDs.
We got some interesting CDs that told you how to stretch your vagina before your honeymoon.
We saw a few interesting...
And then our upbringings of like, don't have sex.
Yeah.
That was Alana's.
Alana's, they were in the Dutch Reformed Church, basically saying sex is evil, which we touched
on it last time.
And then we went all the way back to Augustine and Jerome, way back over 1,500 years ago.
So that's why I would suggest...
so many people in churches are like just set up to fail in a sense because the foundations aren't
there. But it's not just church, it's everywhere. If you look at, I've got a handful of people who
aren't Christians who hear that I've written this book and they're like, oh man, I really want to
read that book because no one's telling them the seven sacred pathways to intimacy either. So one
level is not even knowing they exist. And then the next level is trying to learn something.
And I love this quote from Dave Rebell that is, if something's worth doing well,
it's worth doing badly while I get better at it.
I can relate to that, Benji. I can really relate to that, yes.
And so I think that for Jules as well, it might like, and this applied to us too,
when we didn't know the seven sacred pathways, it was chaos. When we started to understand them,
it went from chaos to messy. And we did things really badly. But then as we started to get
better, we were doing things badly, but we were getting better at it while we were doing them
badly. And we just kept on doing them badly for quite a while. Let's just keep on doing this.
It's not working, but let's just keep on doing it badly. But what we were doing is actually
getting better at it. So we were doing things really badly, but we were slightly improving
how we were doing them in the process. And I think that's where, not just, I mean, I think
that's not just in the Spurges issue. I think that's like for everyone, but I would just chuck
that out there for the people who find that, okay, I'm really, really difficult at this.
I'm really struggling. I'll say that most people really struggle in relationships. And I know that
Asperger's is going to chuck some extra challenges out there in the process. But I think, you know,
we've got that chaos space where we don't know what we're doing wrong. We've got that messy
space where we're doing things really badly, but it takes just this, you know, it can be a long
time in that messy place. It was for us just doing it badly while we were trying to get better at it.
I think it was a few weeks ago, we were talking about learning about how our partner communicates
and how best to communicate with them. And that's obviously a process. And I do think with something
like Asperger's or whatever, there's probably actually something that you can learn as a partner
to help them unlock and that kind of thing. So it could be that both of you need to learn some skills
there. It's always, it's always both. Yeah, always both. It's always both. So, yeah, that
could be something you could look into too, as ways to actually connect emotionally with someone
who struggles to do that for themselves. Yeah, because there's another friend of mine that
actually pointed out that she really finds it hard. She just needs someone other to talk to
because she's got a husband that's got Asperger's as well. Asperger's person as well. And, okay, we'll
connect and might be able to communicate with other and just pray and help one another out.
Because we both have a, and it's quite a hard case because both our husbands names Anthony. It's like,
and they're both got Asperger's. So, but yeah, it's about, yeah, it's been sympathetic to one
another and these, yeah, and learning ways and encouraging one another so that we, you know,
can be safe within our relationships. So, yeah. Yeah, and so much of the time it actually,
it actually comes back to what do you want, which again is where the book starts. Like,
you've got to choose your heart, right? Like being married to someone with Asperger's
is going to be hard, but, you know, it's just going to be hard to be married to anyone.
You know, it's not, not just Asperger's, it's just hard to be married to anyone, but it's also
hard to be divorced to anyone. You know, like, it's hard to be single. It's hard to be divorced.
It's hard to be engaged. It's hard to do dating. It's hard to be married. It's hard to be separated.
It's all hard. And so we don't really have a place where we get the option of not hard.
You just don't get a break. Yeah, like life, life doesn't present, and especially in relationships,
life doesn't present you with a, you know, it's not like, you know, monopoly where you get a get
out of jail free card, you land on chance and you get a get out of free, you know, get out of jail
free card. Life doesn't offer you that option, especially in relationships. It's like, it just
offers you the card, which just says, choose your heart. So do you want the heart of being divorced,
or do you want the heart of working on your marriage? And I think for all of us, regardless
of where each individual is at, is you've got that hard to choose.
And I think that a good quote that really helped me so much
in our struggle days was something
one of Alana's uncles said, I think,
which is, you choose your love.
What's that, auntie?
Yeah, auntie, you choose your love
and then you love your choice.
I love, I really, really love that quote.
You choose your love and then you love your choice.
That really helped my psychology in the process
of when things were really difficult.
It's like, oh, this really sucks.
And you're not enjoying being married to each other,
but then you've actually got this value
that you choose your love and then you love your choice.
And then you keep asking yourself,
what does love look like?
So yeah, you're asking yourself,
what does love look like in this process?
So that would be a question I would chuck out there
to you guys, you know, when you're finding it hard,
is to ask yourself, what does love look like?
Louisa, great to have you jumping in here.
Can you hear us okay?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Great stuff, very cool.
You're jumping in just right at the tail end of this session.
We're gonna be wrapping it up in a few minutes, but-
That's fine, I'll watch the replay.
Yeah, very cool, but it is awesome to have you jumping on.
So thanks for being with us.
So I think, yeah, that's probably,
that was a really, really helpful mindset for me
in the process of you choose your love
and love your choice going through,
you know, whatever you're going through.
But did anyone else have anything
they wanted to share, any stories,
anything else they wanted to chuck out there?
Yes, Kat, come on.
So first of all, I think, yes, we do have things,
but both sides have to choose that.
That's one thing that I'm a bit,
sometimes that's the tricky part,
that one person's willing and the other one
has just decided to let it go or give up or I don't know.
So it's, yeah, but yeah, life's hard, man.
We do hard things.
Yeah, that's us, that's the anthem of raising royalty.
We do hard things.
We've definitely learned that a lot in a ministry context
is that you can't work harder
than the other person is willing to work.
That equation doesn't work.
Yeah.
And that's the same with marriage,
is you can't work harder
than the other person is willing to work.
That's a really important dynamic too,
because that's, you know,
we'll look at the leadership pathway soon as well,
but you've got three types of relationships
that you're gonna end up having,
which is a power struggle relationship
where you've got two powerful people
and no one's willing to budge
and you both fight for what you want.
Or you've got a codependent relationship
where one person goes passive aggressive
and just becomes a yes man and just is like,
yes, yes, yes, says yes all the time,
but actually hates them every time they say yes,
they're actually saying, I hate you.
And, you know, they take it away and they resent it.
And then you've got two powerful people
where you have healthy boundaries
and you work things out together
and it might be messy, but you do it,
you do it without one person, you know,
trying to manipulate or control,
because, you know, like a power struggle relationship
is two people trying to manipulate
and control each other through force.
A codependent relationship is still, you know,
a passive aggressive person
is still trying to manipulate and control,
they're just using techniques that don't work out very well
and then they end up just getting angry and sulky.
And then you've got the other person
that kind of like dominating them totally
and kind of making all the decisions for them.
We've got that powerful people relationship,
which is what we want to all build towards
getting to that place of being powerful people.
So maybe as we wrap this up,
maybe one kind of last question, conversation,
how would you see the dynamic of power struggle,
codependent and powerful people?
How would you see that playing out in your sex life?
Yeah, not great.
Not great?
So what would it be?
Because I would say as well,
those are three marker points, right?
There are three marker points along a spectrum
and on a longer journey,
and you don't like live specifically in one of them,
you live somewhere and both of you
might be a little bit passive aggressive
and both of you might be a little bit
domineering in different areas.
So it's not just one, you know,
like it's not just like a straight line.
It's not clear cut.
You could have moments and spaces
where you really both are powerful people,
but in other areas, it could be a mess.
Can I say something?
Yeah, please do.
I guess it's come sort of back to just trying to think,
it's very right that you said we're sort of floating.
in on that spectrum somewhat and it's probably depends on the mood and the day we had and the
kids and I don't know what but I guess that's where it's about learning the other person well
and reading the other person well and then and give and take I guess really isn't it to to just
know I guess with Alana's story of knowing that you know her strengths or weakness of what she
goes for when what she needs kind of thing and and learning that process is just takes time
it's nothing that happens overnight man and I guess so beside me are 20 years married this year
and yeah man I mean we were very much like that we got into our night driving way after
wedding is like oh my gosh how are we gonna do this it was 5 a.m 5 a.m it was crazy we're like
well totally tired madness in Germany and so that was wild but it was called the same time
and freaky I don't know it was the whole combination but it was worth it really to
to do like that and another thing for beginning of this conversation we I think it's important
regarding the issue with porn what you shared is a real just keeping each other really accountable
and also talking to the kids really well about it I think there's too much hush hush even in this
culture in New Zealand it's really strange but I'm from a liberal country Germany's very liberal
it's very much everything sort out in the open and even normal nakedness is everyone goes in
change room it gets changed no worries there's no big deal covering anything up while I find it
in New Zealand is quite subdued or it's very like oh don't look at me oh it's like weird and so it's
nearly something that just to keep it real natural as well I find not so everything is in hidden you
know everything is in hiding so that's sometimes a problem as well and have the right to look at
phones even you know one another is a married couple of computers so just be really open about
it too yeah um that's um hang on just replying to jewels and the comments as well um
okay so um
thanks for thanks for sharing that with anything else like cat I um I just feel like it'd be cool
just to hear a little bit more of your story is there anything else you'd be keen to share on like
how things are going or like we're at um I think we are so just trying to think well I feel our
marriage is quite healthy when it comes to sexuality um we never had a stint of no sex
I don't think but then I can't put the real thing on it why why it was pretty Simon is very generous
I think he's he's when he gets the vibe I'm not really into it he's oh well sweet let's go sleep
and then other times when when I think oh yeah he's like it's he's very more accommodating I think
yeah then what I might be in some way I show probably quite quick enough sleeping it's like
okay and um and so probably also after probably having babies there was probably some sort of
but I get that and I totally understand I think both of us understood that sort of issue to that
but um I really wish to see more couples being really open about having an issue like I definitely
sort of working in church setting and you know there's the typical once a year decent shocking
sermon that people come up yes I have an issue and that is like one conversation and then wait
another year maybe some other person comes up with that issue and I think having worked in YWAM
for many years where we have a lordship day and just about 100% confess issues with porn
or some sexual you know not not pure or not you know under submission to the lord or whatever
it's to me it's like not surprised I don't know it's it's it's really sad but finding a good way
of communicating it well and putting it on the open to make a difference and to like Cy Rogers
was awesome he was actually really good in that area so good so I think he was such a trailblazer
and yeah and it's true here's one thing which I thought was very good he said the church doesn't
even know where they stand they can't communicate it it's a problem really so if you can't so people
go somewhere else and then might not get get God's point of view on it or his his freedom in it
really yeah isn't it I could back to Benji what you said about you know um powerful people
communication is huge, really, isn't it?
And I have to communicate with myself first
to know what I want, which takes time,
as Alana has said, you have to sit with it
or find out what you want.
It's not always instant, you know?
And then to be brave and communicate that.
And as, you know, I love Benji, you saying the phrase,
good, give good information.
That was great, yeah.
That's huge, that whole dynamic.
So we'll come back to all of those.
I feel like there's lots of threads there
which we'll come back to,
but probably I wanted to bring this one up.
How's porn being for people in marriage?
Like, has it been an issue?
Is an issue, not an issue?
Where's that been?
We've seen that, you know, over 50% of pastors
in the States, when we looked at the stats,
have been, you know, regularly consuming porn.
Is that impacting other people's relationships here?
What's the porn journey been like?
And I'm sure it shared some of ours earlier,
but how about, what's happening for you guys?
It's been a challenging one.
I'll be completely transparent here with this.
Yeah.
It's a current struggle.
It's not a, like, deep in the dungeons of hardcore stuff.
It's not like that, but it is something,
and it's something that we communicate,
we've communicated about.
It is something that I speak with the Lord about.
And, you know, I'm not sure where my mindset is
as far as, it's like getting caught up
into a thought of, you know, why is this an issue?
Why is this still an issue?
And what's the reason that nothing is working?
Because I've tried a lot of stuff.
And yeah, so I just will be very transparent
and honest about it because it's still something
that's a struggle for us, for me, anyway.
Can I, have you listened to Sir Roger's
Sir Roger's Teachings Go Three-Part Teaching
that's called Keeping Clean in a Dirty World?
I haven't heard of it, no.
I'll write it down.
Usually, I, okay, so I don't struggle with porn,
but I don't know if anyone's heard,
back in the 90s, there was a song
by a bachelorette girl called Buses and Trains.
And there's a line in it, it said,
hey, mom, why don't you warn me?
Because about boys is something that I should have known.
They're like chocolate cake, like cigarettes.
I know they're bad for me,
but I just can't leave them alone.
I was like, I listened to this, I was like,
yeah, that's my, yeah, alcohol and boys, man,
like could not leave her alone back in my early days.
And I really, really struggled, really, really struggled.
And I asked the Lord, I said, Lord, you have to get me,
you have to set me free from this
because I can't.
And I was at a friend of mine's house
and I was looking at them through some of the stuff.
And I came across this teaching by Simon Rogers
and it's called Keeping Clean.
Now he talks about his struggle
with breaking these thoughts
that just kept on pounding his head.
And you know, we've all had them,
whether it be sexuality,
whether it be something else,
we've all had thoughts that keep on pounding our heads.
And you try to push it away and come straight back at ya.
Keep the push away, come straight back at ya.
And so what he taught was to admit and submit.
And so he said, it was really powerful.
He said, instead of trying to push these thoughts away,
the Bible says, take your thoughts captive
and bring them under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
And so he said, well, what does that mean?
How do you do that?
And it's like, okay, first of all, you admit it,
take hold of it.
And instead of trying to push it out of the way,
bring it before the Lord.
He said, Lord, look at what I'm thinking.
Yeah, help.
I want this, but I want you more, help me.
And he said, he'd done that every single time
those thoughts came into his mind.
And he said, but because when you bring it,
when you admit it before the Lord,
I mean, he knows it's here anyway.
Straight away, you're not,
it's his Lordship that brings the power
because you're bringing it.
under his lordship and you're not doing it in your own strength anymore and there's no shame
because you've admitted it so you're not fighting it in your own strength anymore and he said at
first that was a struggle but then after doing that time and time again he said eventually it
was like squatting flies and so that was the three-part series teaching that i listened to
um and it really it helped me um deal with thoughts that in my head that shouldn't be there
so yeah i'd recommend that to you
rogers keeping clean
yes why rogers he's a real genius um his background is homosexuality but he's a married
man now with kids and he still speaks with the gay accent um he's hilarious it's funny and he's
a genius so yeah he's passed away do you know that has he died no way last year oh well sorry
not bear of good news here but it's really interesting
i didn't know someone else has to go pick up this mantle what was that cat someone else has to go
pick up that mantle yeah run with it yeah um another thing that i think that um actually in
the book oh i'll have we'll have to cover this um in one of the next ones coming up but in the book
i give my top three tips on masturbation which is always an interesting it's always interesting
when you you know the past this is right guys um i'm thinking about doing this message for a youth
group that's asking me to speak um i think it'd be pretty funny to to do a message on
my top three tips for masturbation but one of the good headline yeah i know right it's all about a
good headline good title um one of the dynamics like my first thing that i would say about
masturbation is just avoid it so the and it's not even because i think masturbation is a bad thing
right it's the same as when my kids choose a bad attitude or a good attitude like it's easier for
them usually to choose a bad attitude you know they can kind of just default to that but it's
harder for them to choose a good attitude sometimes for us as well you know like majority of time
it's you gotta it's it's that but it's a mental part of the game as well so there's the spiritual
dynamics there's the mental dynamics and i think that with you know um choices little choices every
time we make a little choice it starts actually building the neurological pathways in our brain
so if you've got you know if you've struggled with porn a bunch in the past then you've got
neurological pathways that it's a rut it's like a superhighway it's going to just run you straight
down that that road so you kind of the moment you kind of step into that space and shoof you know
like the same with any type of habit or if we've got a type of reflex or anything where it's like
oh we've kind of created this rut in our brain where it's going to be a superhighway you put me
in that environment i'll react like this um oh yeah cool thanks for dropping that um so um
um one of the things that's why you know with raising royalty that's why one of our anthems
anthems is we do hard things because it's the just what we do on the daily right it's what we do on
the daily that rebuilds new pathways so like a cool well i'm going to build it i'm going to build
a new pathway and i'm going to so um and that's by making those hard choices consistently as well so
it's like it's a whole bunch of things going there in terms of getting free um from things
but i think we'll kind of wrap it up there for today it's been a good little chat um we're just
scratching the surface really i feel like this conversation can go in so many different directions
as well so i think we'll just i do want to just kind of like see if anyone had anything else they
wanted to drop in there before we close it up and i wanted to try to just um get back to jules
as well so jules says my husband doesn't see our marriage isn't connected emotionally so i think
you're saying jules that you and then she says we just live together as companions i have a lonely
marriage so grateful for jesus so that's that's a crazy hard place who's who's felt lonely in
their marriage before yeah yeah me both i'm there yeah so um live together as companions
a lonely marriage grateful for jesus who's there
but a husband that doesn't see that the marriage isn't emotionally connected.
That's a kind of a crazy thing as well there.
It's like, if the light within you is darkness, then how great is that darkness?
So basically what Jesus was saying when he said that,
is that if you can't tell you've got a problem, you've got a massive problem.
If you can tell you've got a problem, it's not that bad,
but it's when you can't tell that you've got a problem,
that it's a really, really big problem.
And that's where we were for so long.
So I couldn't tell that I was the issue.
Yeah, so I think that for Jules,
I think that's really a challenging place to be.
Kriker, what can you say there,
other than the fact that that's where we were for so long?
Yeah, and at that point, it could have gone either way.
If Benji had never come to the realizations he did,
we wouldn't be married now.
Can I ask, it's like you were saying before,
like in a marriage, you can't work harder than the other person.
But I guess, you know, we serve a God of hope and prayer is powerful.
But I guess, you know, it is that time of question,
actually, you know, how far is too far?
How long is too long?
And I think that's only...
We need to know whether the breakthrough is coming or not.
Yeah, that's a good question for Dave Riddell.
And there were times where I suppose that one was working harder than the other,
that we were both willing to work.
I think that's what I'm saying about that,
is you both have to be willing to work to make it work.
If you've got one party in a marriage that is not willing to work,
the other person can't carry the marriage by themselves,
at least not for too long.
Well, what they can do is they can do the normal Christian dysfunctional marriage,
dysfunctional marriage, right?
That's what you can do, right?
When you've got two people, one person who's willing to hold on
and the other person who's not willing to budge,
then you can create the normal Christian dysfunctional marriage,
which is all sorts of mess.
Another one's thriving.
And there's like the whole blueprint of what marriage is supposed to look like,
has been lost.
Yeah, I guess the battle that I've had back and forth in my head so many times is,
okay, dysfunctional marriage, not good.
We've got two kids aged three and seven,
so the damage of a broken marriage on the kids, also not good.
It's like, you kind of feel like you're screwed if you're dead,
if you're screwed if you don't.
Yeah, I think that what we're actually experiencing in a lot of our marriages is,
and a big part of it is actually like the cultural context that we live in.
Even just the Christian, if you look at like Christian history,
of where we are in terms of the mindsets in the church that condition us
to accept the blueprint or whatever that we have.
I'm not trying to give anyone a free pass here and say,
oh, yeah, it's not your fault.
All I'm trying to highlight is there's some big things at play here
in terms of cultural infrastructure mindsets
around what marriage is supposed to look like.
And that's one of the things that I'm really trying to address in the book,
is that one of the things I'm really trying to address in the book
is that the blueprint for marriage
between what is accepted as a normal Christian marriage
versus what God intended for a normal marriage to look like,
they're so different.
Because the normal marriage that God is trying to look like
is where there's two powerful people.
So good luck trying to find that for a start with, right?
Two powerful people who are both completely devoted
to satisfying the other person's wants, needs, dreams, and desires.
And they're devoted to giving the other person
what they want, when they want, and how they like it.
And it's totally mutual.
And in that place, they're both completely devoted
to becoming the world X.
expert on how to satisfy the wants, needs, desires, hopes, dreams of each other.
So this is like, and in that, you know, like if there's challenges, then they communicate
like powerful people.
If they have missed, they use healthy boundaries to bring themselves back to intimacy.
But there's like this beautiful dynamic in the relationship that actually becomes the
greatest picture of what heaven on earth actually looks like, where it's actually one
of the greatest expressions of mirroring the divine dance that the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Spirit experience.
And we capture that.
And then we actually, we mirror it in our marriage relationship.
And I think this is what God wants.
And it's so, because it's mirrored after the fellowship of the Trinity, it's radically
extravagant love.
It's so outrageous.
It's so limitless.
It's so laid down.
It's so selfless.
And it's just so overwhelming delight, but it's also so reciprocal.
It's not like there's no tension in it.
It's a dance.
It's beautiful.
It's like, wow, so harmonious and glorious, and it leaves both people completely overwhelmed
and undone and exhilarated and just like, wow, this is wild.
So I'm like, that's one of the things that I'm trying to get back to is because so many
people are just disappointed in their marriages.
You know, you've got so many pastors that are disappointed.
I have put my book out, it's just come out, and the first thing that I'm getting is pastors
in tears saying, it's our marriage.
And then so what we have is just like this culture of disappointment and dysfunction
in marriage, where occasionally you get someone who's doing really well, but everyone's kind
of too shy to figure out and talk about what's actually working or everyone appears they're
doing well.
Oh, yeah.
And then the people who look like you're doing well, and I've got a great sex life, but they're
actually divorced now, because there was other things going on that you didn't know about.
So I guess that's one of the things I'm really trying to address and highlight is actually
that type of marriage isn't just possible.
That's what marriage will look like as a norm when there's a sonship reformation taking
place in the earth right now.
And when marriage, like when the identity shift takes place in the church, which shifts
from orphan to son, then we're going to start seeing marriages like this, like redefine normal.
Yeah.
I've got just a little press report based on last week's Friday.
When you guys, what was the question?
Was like, I wish something, something.
I don't know.
It was that kind of statement.
And I thought, and I knew I had mentioned it.
I'd like Simon to be more proactive with organizing a date.
Anyway.
So after a day or so, I was like, okay, I actually got to tell him that because that's not right
for me just to say that to you guys and not actually tell him that.
Yes.
Good information.
Yes.
He fully took her on board and we're off to Auckland next week.
Woohoo.
Oh, come on.
That's a small day.
You're organizing.
It's just like, oh, okay.
I'll do that.
No worries.
So it's like, uh, easy answer, potentially, but I haven't obviously really communicated
it.
And just a little press report, things, there's fruit here, people.
That's great.
And he will experience the full weight of your gratitude.
And when you're in Auckland, it'll be awesome.
Yeah.
Good.
Um, so I just wanted to really, um, uh, validate, I guess what Jules is sharing in the comments
as well.
So, yeah, yeah.
But I just wanted to, I just really want to validate, um, you there Jules, we see you,
we hear you and our love goes out to you.
I know that that is a challenging space, um, where you're in, um, but lots and lots of
love to you, uh, yeah, in this process.
So let's just, let's kind of keep journeying together.
Um, we'll be seeing you guys again next week, which will be fun.
Thanks for the time.
I was gonna, I try, I was gonna try really hard to keep it to an hour, but an hour just
evaporates.
So it's been an hour and a half.
We just have such good conversation.
It's quite cool.
I think that we don't talk about it and I think people want to talk about it.
And I know whenever I talk to my friends, we actually all have the same issues.
No one talks about it, whether it's marriage or something else.
And it's nice to know that you're not on an island.
Yeah.
So we might not have, um, we might not have brought heaps of specific.
answers or resolutions I think today to people we've kind of just kind of
bounced around but I hope it's been interesting we might we'll see we'll
probably still do something yeah Janice how you doing we didn't hear
from you but it's wonderful to have you with us yes thank you I had a have fun
really late because I wanted I have a couple of real quick things I wanted to
share number one is about the both people being able to you know surrender
and do as you as you're saying I was only married for five years and that's
the dynamic that I was facing I was doing all the work I was doing all the
you know surrendering and praying and everything and when I was faced with
that when it came time to get the divorce and everything and there was all
like you said all of that Christian ease guilt and everything getting divorced as
a Christian and and I the war every time I prayed the Holy Spirit just kept
saying to me I will never leave you or forsake you whatever you decide I am
with you and that was just what helped me and carried me through because for
the sake of my children and for my own sake the divorce was the healthier
choice definitely for us and and that same went along for a friend of mine was
kind of the opposite she dug her heels in and said I'm a Christian I'm not
getting a divorce if he wants to get the divorce then fine and it was like 12 15
years before he finally did it and then she was too old to have children and she
was like he was just so bitter and purposely doing that so now I can I'm
too old to have children and I can never have children and everything it was just
like this like really deep bitterness and woundedness it's so sad to see just
because of the religious spirit that oh you're a Christian you can't get a
divorce not that I'm propagating get a divorce to everybody I'm not saying that
but you know just what agreeing with what Benji is saying and how sad it is
in the church that that element is there and it you know we need to see
that that change but I was wondering too if I'm at the end if when everybody gets
off and stuff if you could just pray for my friend Kathy I just found out tonight
that's why I didn't get on in times that the doctors say she has a week to live
the most if that and just you know we're trying to really believe for a miracle
we've been praying for her for two weeks it came out like so suddenly
cancer and kidney failure and everything so if everybody can say a prayer for her
tonight I'd appreciate that too thanks thanks very much and then the question
everyone's wondering this whole time Janice is how how are things going with
you and porn porn oh no I've never I've had troubles with lust and with other
things but I didn't have porn no I never I never really got into that but I got
into fantasizing just in my mind but not looking at porn okay so you didn't you
didn't watch things but you just had things happening in your mind yeah and
for a while for a long time there for a season when I was younger I didn't
really need porn because I was with men so I was really a bad girl so yeah I was
yeah you know I was just like not trying to find it but it was finding me they
were coming after me so yeah thank God to be delivered yeah cool thanks for
sharing and Dave can we get you to pray for us to wrap wrap it up for today and
look forward to next week absolutely um oh my father we just love you we thank you we
just really praise you for your oh just for the way you bring us together to
talk about such touchy subjects but to know that you are here present with us
to bring us together to work safe where we can find in our togetherness our
safety that you have for us always and we just thank you that you've been here
powerfully today for us to get breakthrough for whatever might be going on we know you're
there always we know you're here with us and we feel your love we thank you we love you we
praise you in Jesus name amen amen thank you so much
Ben one can I just say one last thing like I come at it from the other angle because my ex-husband
was into porn oh yes
So that was one of the big, yeah, that was one of the big
issues in our marriage. And for my opinion, from being like on
the opposite side of the fence with the pornography, that's to
me, that was like a slap in the face, like you're not, it was
really bad on my identity. Because you're not good enough.
I need all these other women in these magazines to satisfy me,
you're not enough. You know, and so that's the flip side of the
pornography from the other part, the other part spouse.
Wow, thanks for sharing that.
Can I can I interview you for a moment now that you brought that
up just as we were closing?
Yeah, sure.
Um, so how often was your ex involved in porn?
Um, I have no idea totally, because I just was finding
magazines hidden in closets and hidden here and there and
catching him in the act a few times, you know, over the course
of five years that we were together, but apparently his mom
told me that he had a problem before we got married. And we
were so young when we got married. They thought, Oh, once
he gets married, he'll be fine. Everything will be fine. But
they kept it a secret. And, you know, it was just totally
devastating for the both of us, actually, especially for me.
Yeah. So you don't know how much he was how involved he was,
was it?
Yeah, well, back then, I mean, it was in the 80s. So there
wasn't as much with the internet. It was all magazines.
Yeah. And then ultimately, he did cheat on me. So physically,
you know, physically a few times. So just a few times. Yeah.
How many times did he have a fears?
Well, it was kind of like one night stand kind of things. It
was a couple of times that I found out concretely, but I
suspect there were more. And it was always in his mind. You
could always tell because he was always, you know, so friendly
with these young teenage girls all the time.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Good stuff. Good stuff, fam. Well, thank you everyone for
being vulnerable. Thank you everyone for being real. I know
we've just kind of opened some cans and opened some
conversations and not necessarily brought resolution
or dealt with anything specifically. But I hope that
it's valuable just in the process and the context and just
in the atmosphere of being able to chat openly about stuff. And
you know, I think that, you know, we could spend a long
time for each of the different things that have come up. But I
think we'll probably just, you know, not necessarily try and
fix every everything. But create just create that space of
vulnerability where we can check things through and we'll
just trust God that he'll do what he wants to do. And then
every now and then we'll kind of do like what we've done. And
some of the other sessions, we've done a bit of a Dr. Phil
moment where we've kind of highlighted someone and gone on
that journey and talk through some stuff. But thanks for
everything today. Love you guys so much. And for those who are
in the School of Social Media Marketing, we are going to be
starting the Daily Hard Things Challenge in there as well,
which is really fun. If you're in the just if you're not in the
School of Social Media Marketing, today is day 52 of
the Daily Hard Things Challenge. And that's something that I want
to really encourage everyone with. I think that is of
everything that I've ever done, discipleship ways, revival ways,
miracles, the Daily Hard Things Challenge, I think is producing
and going to produce more fruit than anything else. So I want to
really encourage everyone to jump on board with that. And if
you haven't seen it yet, the session that kind of kickstarts
that off is in the Open Heaven Masterclass Guide, go to the one
that says the Foundations for Exponential Growth. You will
love being a part of the Daily Hard Things Challenge. So if you
aren't already, then I want to encourage you to jump on board
with that with us. And if you've got stuff that you like, oh,
man, and I want to grow in this area of my life, then the Daily
Hard Things is definitely, you know, that's the space to be if
you want to be growing. So awesome, man. Bless you. And
we'll catch you soon.
Thanks, everybody.
Thank you.