Abba, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, we thank you so much for this opportunity to share
our hearts, our lives with each other, to learn more about what you have for us.
And we just want to thank you that you care about the big things in our lives, the little
things, that your power is able to free us from long-held beliefs and identity issues.
You are just incredible.
You are amazing.
And we love you.
We love you so much.
And we thank you that you love us with an everlasting love.
And I pray, Jesus, that as we move forward in this meeting today, you will have more
for us, that you will touch us deeply in those areas of our lives that need healing, that
need freedom, that need just a different way of looking at things.
So yeah, we invite you to do what only you can do.
Thank you, Jesus.
Thank you, Holy Spirit.
Thank you, Abba, Father.
Whoa.
Beautiful.
Hey, we're going to do two little activations here.
Dawn and Vicki, how are you doing?
I'm doing good.
That's great.
That's great to hear.
Right.
Hey, we're going to do two activations before we kick into the Q&A.
So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to spend one minute praying in the Holy
Ghost together.
Okay.
So if that's something that you do all the time, awesome, you'll be a pro.
If it's something you don't do all the time, then it's something we can grow in.
But right now, let's just start praying in the Spirit.
We'll take a minute and we'll pray in the Holy Spirit together, and then we'll do our
next thing.
And then we're going to go live into the Q&A.
So on your marks, get set, let's pray.
Well, we've gone over time, we've got two minutes, but let's keep on going, let's pray for five minutes in the Holy Spirit, and that'll be beautiful.
So let's just keep praying.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen.
I don't know if you can hear me, but I'm going to sing a little bit of a hymn for you.
I'm going to sing a little bit of a hymn for you.
The next thing we're going to do is I want you to choose three things in your world right now that you're grateful for.
And I just want you to share what you're most grateful for.
Basically, if you're watching this in Zoom and on Facebook, share it in the Facebook comments.
Or you can drop it in here in the Zoom comments.
But better if you do it in the Facebook comments because then other people will get to see it as well later on.
If you drop it in the Zoom comments, then it just disappears and no one ever sees it again.
So I want you to think about this as well as writing it down.
I want you to be actually really engaging and delighting in God at the same time are the three things you're most grateful for in your world right now.
I'm going to jump in the Facebook group as well. Tina, good to see you.
Here we go.
Darren, Sukarni, good to have you guys with us. Beautiful.
Beautiful to have everyone jumping in here. So we're just doing our three things that we're most grateful for in our world right now.
So my top three gratitudes, I'll share it with you while I'm doing it.
We had Alia's birthday yesterday.
So we got to celebrate Alia, which was awesome.
Four years old and what an absolute delight she is.
It's just overwhelming just being able to celebrate her.
And then the next thing for me will be the friends and family that gathered around us.
Just amazing.
So many friends and family, just amazing to be able to have such amazing, amazing people.
And then the third thing will be a new season of where we're living.
That we've come here and God's given us just a pop-up community of awesome people and basically a house church just instantly out of nowhere with phenomenal people.
worship session tonight with that crew it's like oh yeah so that's my top three.
Anyone else want to jump on board with three things? Cleo great to have you jumping in here
wonderful welcome to the online school of sonship.
Thanks. A pleasure, a pleasure. Anyone else want to jump in and see the
top three things you're grateful for?
Sorry Benji, I'm still trying to find out where to share it. I can't
find the Facebook live but I can tell you now I'm very grateful for my husband, I'm very grateful
for my. Yeah if you were going to do the comments it's late you can do it now or later but it's
in online school of sonship we're live in the online school of sonship right now as well as
yes but no worries on that but yeah just go ahead and share oh yes my husband she's really it's he's
been such a stable and yeah wonderful man my children and that they love god all of them
and yeah just the privilege of being able to sing beautiful that's amazing wow
very very cool um so we're gonna transition to the Q&A now oh what I I want to start with
a little bit of time praying in the spirit a little bit of time being grateful uh to highlight
and really emphasize for us that while we're doing a Q&A right now this Q&A is attached to
something much deeper and bigger which is the renewing of our minds and the renewing of our
minds is not going to happen by answering just by just answering questions because the renewing
of our minds has to happen you know we've got a conscious subconscious and unconscious level
of our mind and our belief system is fused into the very very depths of our being and most of
our beliefs we can't access just in regular conversation regular just chatting it needs
something deeper to actually engage on that level of depth where our core beliefs are really
really ingrained and I guess one of the ways that I've been talking about this is it's a little bit
like if you were weeding a garden and the garden was really the ground was really dry you try to
pull those weeds out but you might break the top off but the roots are still in there so they're
just growing back whereas if the ground is nice and soft and the soil is nice and wet you pull
the weeds and you know the whole thing just pops up easily but it's like that for us for our minds
you know like if we're if we've got a mind that isn't watered by the presence of god watered by
gratitude watered by worship watered by your praying in the spirit watered by the word of god
then the soil will be really hard ground so you can go through and have a Q&A in a time like this
and teaching and all those types of things and it won't impact you it won't get that that
develop that's the freedom that you're wanting to get from the very core of your being so
um just always want to be highlighting to us this dynamic of okay we want to um we want to water the
soil water the soil water the soil and then the revelation will be able to be more effective it's
like jesus told the parable of the sower it was more about this it was more about the soil
the right soil than the seed the seed's always going to be effective
there's no problem with the seed um you just need to make sure that you're good ground
good soil because the seed of the kingdom of god will always blow up so that's it let's jump into
the Q&A and our focus is the illusion of separation and our aim is to put to death
anything that endorses separation or distance in you is there anything in you that believes that
you're not one with god every moment of every day is there anything in you that believes that you're
not a seamless participant in the divine dance um if there is let's get to the root of it let's get
to why you believe that and let's put some of that to death cheers
now you'll need to unmute uh hiking
yeah i have a question that i still keep being hung up on and it has to do with god's wrath
and you know like when i look at the old testament like there's stories in there where
Like the earth opened up and they were swallowed up, like, you know, the Israelites.
There were instances where God told, you know, the Israelites to go and slaughter men, women
and children from a tribe.
I think of Ananias and Sapphira, you know, all these...
So Ananias and Sapphira, it's important as well to recognize that's New Testament.
Ananias and Sapphira, that's New Testament.
Herod being struck down by an angel and being eaten by worms, that's New Testament.
St. Patrick and many, many, many of the outpourings and revivals where you see the glory of God
really descending when people tried to mess with that glory or try and kill someone like
St. Patrick.
St. Patrick has a testimony where the ground swallowed up, like the ground opened up and
swallowed the people who were trying to come and kill him.
They just fell into the ground, never to be seen again.
It's crazy stuff.
So let me touch base first on the slaughtering of men, women and children.
Because when you're exploring this, when you're exploring the image of God, the first point
that you have to have secure, the first point that you have to have nailed down and locked
in place is that Jesus is the answer to the question.
Okay, so when you're exploring your theology around the image of God, you have to understand
that Jesus is the high ground and you have to camp, you have to make your residence,
you have to make your home in the theological high ground of Christ.
Okay, so Jesus is the exact revelation of the Father.
There's nothing about the Father that's not seen in Jesus.
Every aspect of who the Father is, is fully revealed in Christ.
You know, John 14, 6, after Jesus has just washed the disciples feet in John, sorry,
yeah, in John 13, John 14, they say, hey, you know, you know, Jesus is on the way of
the truth and the life.
And then Thomas says, well, you know, just one thing, though, but could you tell us what
God's like?
This is, you know, after three and a half years, could you just tell us what the Father's
like?
Because they're still wrestling with this.
And he's like, come on, Tim, come on, Tim, I've just told you for three years, three
and a half years, I've just told you that the whole time, the whole way through, I just
have answered the same question that Heike just asked.
I am God.
There's nothing about God, there's nothing about the Father that isn't fully revealed
in Christ.
So every aspect of the nature of the Father is fully revealed in Christ.
Not just little, you don't have glimpses of the Father.
So John 14, 6, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
He says, let's, I'll read that for you now.
I'll read John 14, 6 for you now.
I'm just pulling this up for you in the old Bible.
I'll tell you what, I'll read it out of my paperback, it's more fun.
John 14, 6.
Jesus says, I will read from verse 5.
Thomas said to him, Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?
Jesus answered, I am the way, the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you really know me, knew me, you will, if you really know me, you will know my Father
as well.
From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
Okay, so like everything that you, Jesus is saying, everything that is to be known about
the nature of God is seen in me.
There's nothing, so you've got a full revelation of God.
There's nothing missing about the nature of God in Christ.
You don't, you don't have, you know, once you understand who Christ is, you don't think,
you know, if you fully understand who Christ is, at the end of that, you don't have any
more questions about who God is.
So then verse 8, sorry, it's Philip.
So Philip said, Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.
Now, remember, this is just straight off the bat that Jesus has just washed the disciples
feet, okay?
Remember, he stripped down naked, you know, just with a towel around and went and washed
all their feet.
So their feet are still probably glistening from the fact that he's just gotten down and
washed all of their feet.
And while their feet are still...
still wet, Philip says, Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us, because
they still had this dynamic going on where they hadn't connected, fully connected that
Jesus is the full revelation of the Father.
And then Jesus goes on, don't you know me, Philip, even after I've been among you such
a long time?
Everyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
How can you say, show us the Father?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
The words I say to you, I do not speak on my own authority, rather it is the Father
living in me.
It is the Father living in me.
This is a big deal.
It is the Father living in me who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me, or at least
believe on the evidence of the works themselves, or at least believe on the evidence of the
miracles themselves, that the miracles were testifying that Jesus is God.
So what he's saying is, you know, it's like right off the bat, they're washing their feet.
He's saying, you know, that wasn't me washing the feet.
That was the Father who steps down off the throne, gets his hands dirty.
He's the Father who will get down and wash your feet.
So this is the place that we have to camp in first.
If you want to explore the nature of God, you have to first camp in Christ.
You have to secure yourself and anchor yourself and found yourself in Christ and found yourself
in the reality that you're not going to find any new information about God outside of Christ.
And you're definitely not going to find any accurate information about God outside of
Christ.
You can't find any more information about the nature of God outside of Christ.
So think about it like this, think about the Old Testament as the question, what is God
like? And all humanity has this question, what is God like?
And the exclusive, exhaustive answer and definition of what is God like is Christ.
And from that point, once you're embedded in that point, you then have to explore the
other things from that high ground.
OK, you have what you have to make sure is that that God isn't on trial when you're
exploring, you know, because people explore that dynamic of, OK, so, you know,
God commanded Israelites to kill all the people in Canaan, men, women and child, pretty
ruthless, like full on, hardcore, ruthless brutality.
But what you want to make sure you're not doing is you're going to make sure you're not
putting God on trial here, because the moment you put God on trial, you open yourself up
to get the wrong answer.
OK, so you're opening yourself up to get an answer that isn't Christ.
Any time you open yourself up to get an answer that isn't Christ, you'll get the wrong
answer. So it's like if you're if you if you're doing it like with an accusing type of
spirit or like I'm putting God on trial right now because I'm not convinced that Jesus was
telling the truth, you will you will come to a false conclusion.
Because you're already setting yourself up to be deceived by answering the wrong question.
Because the moment you answer that question, it's a question of doubt and a question of
doubt will never get you the answer that will actually be helpful.
So first, embed yourself, anchor yourself, found yourself, ground yourself in the full
persuasion conviction that Christ is the full revelation of God.
You have to start there.
All right, because you're going to open yourself up for the wrong answer.
And you might come to the conclusion that God hates people.
So now if you're going to look at times when God committed genocide.
Yeah, God committed genocide twice in the Bible.
Two big acts of genocide by God in the Bible that you cannot get away from.
blatant genocide in the Bible and God commanded genocide. That's pretty hardcore. Okay, so
so also, so we're going to explore this, the image of God, we're going to explore Ananias and Sapphira,
we're going to explore Roth, but we're going to explore it from the context that Christ is
the full revelation of God and we're not going to find any other information and we're not looking,
listen, what we're not looking for is we're not looking for a separate revelation of God
outside of Christ. That's not what you're looking for, okay? If you start looking for
a separate revelation of God outside Christ, you will come to the wrong conclusion.
So that can never be the mindset that you start asking those questions from, okay? So
you can, what you want to do is you want to change it around and you want to say,
you want to be like, okay, God, help me understand this, help me understand this, rather than
accusing God, saying, see God, you're a genocidal maniac, right? You start, you put God on trial
and you have an accusing spirit and, you know, an unbelief in your heart there and this mindset
that Jesus isn't the full revelation of God, you're going to come to a false answer. But if
you start asking God, hey, I'd really love to understand what was going on. Why did you,
like, why are you endorsing genocide? You don't have to defend God, you don't have to pretend
he wasn't endorsing genocide, he was endorsing genocide. So you just want to understand why
is it that God would endorse genocide? What's going on that God, that what's going on in the
context that God would endorse genocide? Because that's a big deal and you want to understand that.
Because otherwise, if you, you know, like, if you don't explore this correctly, then, yeah,
you could just have that in your image of God, that God's a genocidal maniac and it's going to
be really difficult to have intimacy with a genocidal maniac, right? And this will be your
own, it'll be your own image of God that's actually creating the separation, creating
the distance because you don't want intimacy with a God who's a freak show.
So, Ananias and Sapphira, St. Patrick, there's so many times in the New Testament and so many
testimonies and outpourings and revivals where the presence of God is turning up
in massive ways and people completely disrespect the glory of God and they die on the spot.
My dad pastoring for decades and decades, and while he was pastoring, he dealt with so many
people who were just like full-on rebels, you know, they were total orphans and they were just
living in constant rebellion and he had, you know, he had at least 10 people who God said to him,
he had at least 10 people who God said to him, this person is going to die,
like this person is living in so much rebellion that they're going to die.
And he buried them all, 100% of them, every single one, every single time God said that,
that person died. And so, there should be a level of reverence and fear of God, you know.
So, what can we see from Jesus about the nature of God? We can see that Jesus took time to make a
whip, right? He took time to make a whip and then he got busy with that whip and he put it to work.
So, is God and is Christ all fluffy with no judgment? Is God all fluffy with no consequences
for wickedness and rebellion and evil? No, even Jesus prophesied, Jesus prophesied the
destruction of Jerusalem and that destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in, I think, was it 80,
it's just slipping my mind, give me one second, it's like 80, 60, 73 or something.
So, Matthew 24, I think it is that Jesus prophesies, Matthew 24, Matthew 25, Jesus prophesies
the destruction of Jerusalem and then, yeah, 80, 70, sorry, 80, 70, Rome destroys Jerusalem.
And they killed about a million people with swords, not, you know, that's like the same
number of people that died from nuclear bombs, but Rome went in there and killed them all with
swords. They crucified Jews till there was nothing left to nail them up on.
So, Rome, you know, Rome was just complete bloodshed. That was something that Jesus
prophesied, not necessarily, not necessarily that Jesus was prophesying.
signed that to make it happen, he was just saying here's what you're about to walk into,
you know, here's the rebellion, here's the fruits of your wickedness about what you're about to walk
into. So we shouldn't assume that Christ is soft on rebellion, we shouldn't assume that Christ is
like, okay guys, there's no like, you can be wicked, you can live in rebellion and there'll
be no consequences. So are you guys, you guys are freezing, am I freezing?
No. No, I'm not freezing, okay, that's cool.
I'm just double checking because some of you guys look like to be frozen. So
yeah, there's Jesus, he makes a whip, he does all these different, you know, different things,
but is he, what's he revealing? So he's revealing that there is a dynamic to God
that is really serious, right? He is revealing that, you know, there is a dynamic to the wrath
of God, but here's what we need to understand about the wrath of God is, and I've covered this
in previous sessions, but the wrath of God is not separate from the love of God. Does that make
sense? The wrath of God, when people, you know, in orphanology, in an orphan mindset, the wrath of
God is always described or articulated as something separate from the love of God, right? Okay, wrath
is different, like, as opposed to, when you understand it and through a lens of sonship,
the wrath of God is an expression of the love of God, and yes, there will be justice,
but some of you won't have heard this session, but I've covered this multiple times before,
but the Greek word for wrath, the most commonly used Greek word for wrath is the word orge,
o-r-g-e, which is where we get the word orgasm from. Okay, so that's a bit dynamic, so you want
to be a little bit, like, it's a little bit interesting there when you think of the wrath
of God, it's actually the orge of God, which is also translated as orgasm, and it doesn't mean
hatred, it means intense longing and desire to the point of shaking. Okay, so it means an intense
desire, an intense emotion to the point of shaking, so you're reaching out to desire something, so
the wrath of God is always an intense expression of the love of God. So, I often use this picture
to describe it, there's a story of a Ron Leaming Jr. and Ron Leaming Sr., and in 2008, they went
to Wyoming, and they were bow hunters, and they were hunting elk out there, and then out of
nowhere, a full-sized adult male grizzly jumps out at them, out of the bush, out of nowhere, and just
starts taking after them, chasing them, and Ron Jr., he starts sprinting, and Ron Sr., he quickly fires
an arrow at the bear as it runs past, and just runs past him, chasing his son, and then this bear,
like, it starts tearing up his son, his son kind of fights, fights it away, kicks it, runs and
jumps, and then the son gets caught in the fork of a tree, like, stuck like this, and with this big grizzly
bear, like, absolutely tearing the son up, you know, and Ron Sr. does something absolutely ridiculous,
which captures a beautiful and almost perfect expression of what the wrath of God looks like,
okay? So, remember, the wrath of God is never separate from the love of God, but always an
expression of the love of God, and Ron Sr., he just loses his mind, right? His love causes him
to lose his mind, in a sense, he goes at it just with a bow, just with a bow, he goes and starts
attacking this bear, he is fighting the bear, he can't see his son, his son's just being torn to pieces by
this bear, the bear could have turned around and just cut him in half, but Ron's love, which you
could say is wrath right now, he goes into full wrath mode, full rage mode, extreme intense desire
overtakes him, and he does something just crazy, and he lays his life on the line, he just starts
fighting that bear, hand-to-hand combat, fighting a full male grizzly bear, then this weird thing
happens, the bear stops attacking his son, walks away about a hundred yards, and stumbles and falls
over dead, and what he didn't realize is that that one arrow that he shot quickly as the bear was
running after his son, went right into the bear's heart.
So that right there is a great picture of the wrath of God for you, if you're struggling
with the wrath of God.
The wrath of God is always an expression of the love of God and its desire is always to
protect, to save, to redeem.
There is justice with the wrath of God, but it's always redemptive with orphan mindsets
of the wrath of God or judgment.
It's always about punishing.
God's not about punishing justice, right?
The focus of God's justice is not punishment, it's always redemption.
It's a really big thing to focus on that his focus is always redemption, but you do have
to at the same time understand that there is a serious nature when it comes to the glory
of God.
If you've been exposed to the glory of God and in places where there is extreme glory,
there is reverence that's required of a person.
And if a person will disrespect the glory of God in the context of a place where there
is...
You don't see it very often at all where a person will die in church when things are
just regular, when there's no glory.
I tell you, when the glory starts getting really, really intense, historically, people
start dying.
And here's when they start dying.
People start dying when they refuse to break agreement with their own rebellion.
Rebellion is...
When you're living in rebellion, you have to understand that you've got a covenant with
death.
God didn't choose that covenant with death, you did.
That's why Deuteronomy says, choose life.
You could choose death and curses, but God's always saying, choose life, choose life, choose
life.
Why?
Because the wages of sin is death.
The wages of sin is death.
It literally...
If you've got a covenant, if you're going to live in rebellion, one Samuel says that
your rebellion is the sin of witchcraft.
You have a covenant with death if you're walking in rebellion.
If you're not walking with Christ, if you're walking with Christ intentionally, you have
a covenant with life.
If you're not walking with Christ, you have a covenant with death at your own choosing.
Whether you've chosen it by ignorance, whether you just don't realize it or not, whether
your agreement and your alignment and your allegiance is with Satan by accident or not,
you only have a covenant with life if you're in agreement and in alignment with Christ.
When you're in agreement with Christ, you have a covenant with life and life in abundance.
Now, the worst thing, right?
The worst thing you can do is know Christ, know the glory.
The most dangerous place you could ever be is to know Christ, to know the glory, and
to still live in intentional rebellion and wickedness.
That is a place where you have a really, really strong covenant with death.
And so what happens with people like Ananias and Sapphira is it's more about...
I would suggest it's more like this.
Ananias and Sapphira had a covenant with death all along.
They were walking in really dangerous ground, and God gave them grace after grace after
grace after grace after grace, and then he finally removed his grace, and they got the
consequence of the covenant that they were already walking in, which was death.
So, yes, there should be extreme reverence around the glory of God.
And if you're in a context of an outpouring of revival, if you're in a context where
the glory of God is just being poured out, then you want to be really, really careful
not to mess with that.
So in Indonesia, one story in Indonesia is that there was a guy there.
When the outpourings were happening in Indonesia, massive revival broke out in Indonesia.
It's still one of the top five revival nations in the world.
Indonesia is the biggest Islamic nation in the world, and it's in the top five revival
nations in the world, and they don't publish their religious statistics anymore because
they're so embarrassed because of the move of God and how many people are becoming Christians.
Top level jihad extremists.
My friend, my spiritual mom, Nancy, has led a number of the high level jihad extremists
to Jesus.
We've gone on to lead tens of thousands of extreme jihadists from Indonesia to Jesus.
So there they are.
But in the beginning, when this glory was really breaking out in Indonesia, there was
a story of a guy who was coming to one of the churches where it was first really breaking
out.
The glory is amazing.
They're having the Shekinah glory of God turn out.
When it started, they thought the church was on fire because the Shekinah Glory of God came on it and the whole village came out trying to put the fire out on the church and then they realized it wasn't real fire.
They were getting buckets in it because it's a batch roof. They think, oh no, the whole village is going to burn down. We're in major trouble.
But it was just a Shekinah Glory of the fire of God burning on that church. And so people start giving their lives to the Lord.
God starts moving and there's this one guy who's an alcoholic and he's hiding it, right?
So he's being a good Christian, being a good church guy, but he's hiding this dark side and he's hiding this alcohol and all of that.
And then all these people start getting words for him saying, hey man, God's asking you to give that up right now. You're hiding it. You're living a lie.
And he's like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. And so things started getting really specific.
So God started giving people exact words of knowledge of exactly where his alcohol stashes were.
Like, this is where it is. This is when you drink. This is what you've been doing. Right.
Because the glory of God is so intense that everything's getting exposed. And he was just flat out denying it. Right.
He wouldn't break ties with his rebellion or his covenant with Bec. He's like, no, no, no, it's not true. It's not true. It's not true.
Didn't matter what God did or how God did it. In the end, someone got a word that said, listen, God's giving you 24 hours to repent from this.
And if you don't in 24 hours, you're going to die.
And to the dot, the guy just denied it the whole time. And the countdown ended and the guy died on the spot.
So it does. So what's that? Is that God being brutal, attacking? It's not.
It's God definitely drawing a line. God will draw a line in the sand. And you don't get to decide that.
And I don't get to decide that. But there are some times where God will be like, grace, grace, grace.
I'll give you grace for that. And there are some times where a particular person will cross a line and God will say, no, I'm done.
I'm done with that. And that's what you have with Herod. And that's what you have with Ananias and Sapphira.
New Testament examples of people falling dead and God being the one that's done it.
You know, Herod, God sent an angel and struck Herod down.
So there is a dynamic here where we should carry a really serious reverence for God.
It is ridiculous and a terrifying place to be, to be living with a covenant with death.
That's crazy talk. That doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that?
Why would you live with a covenant with death and think you're not in trouble?
You are in trouble. You're the one that's initiated a covenant with death.
That's a fearful place to live.
Why would you bother with that when you could be living with a covenant with life abundant?
You could be flooded with the divine life and glory and ecstasy and bliss.
Rather, you have this crazy mindset that just keeps aligning with darkness.
OK, so that's Ananias and Sapphira. Now let's look at, is God a genocidal maniac?
Well, the first thing is, if you ask that question like that, you'll probably come to the conclusion, yes, he is.
Because you never want to ask a question out of unbelief.
You want to come to Christ, the high ground, and explore from there.
So you come to Christ, the high ground, fully persuaded that Christ is the full revelation of God in every way.
And then you ask, you don't ask out of unbelief, you don't ask out of skepticism.
Because when you ask out of unbelief and you ask out of skepticism, that's when you're going to get the wrong answer.
And that could mess you up for your whole life.
And it's messed plenty of people up for their whole life.
You want to ask, OK, God, how do I understand this?
Can you show me, Jesus, how to understand Genesis 6, the flood?
How do I understand the flood?
When I know your love, how do I understand the flood?
When I know your love, how do I understand the fact that you commanded Joshua and the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites, men, women, and children?
What is going on there?
Why was God endorsing genocide?
Because 100% he was.
And it's really, you don't need to protect God as well, OK?
You don't need to protect God.
He doesn't need you to defend him.
He's well capable of defending himself.
God hasn't had an issue where he's stepped outside of his own value system and now he's feeling insecure about what's written in the Bible.
Oh, man, I really hope people don't read that.
Oh, I just hope that people stop reading the Old Testament because they might get the wrong idea.
That's something amazing about how secure God is, is he will leave people, he doesn't care.
Like, he cares, but in the sense that he's not insecure about the fact that people have got the wrong idea about him.
You know, people have had the wrong idea about who God is in the church for over 1500 years.
pulpit. And it hasn't, you know, and God hasn't gotten insecure
about it. So let's look at Genesis six. We'll grab our
Bible. So this one come back with me. Come back in time
thousands of years. Genocide in the Bible, that would be a good
sermon, a genocide in the Bible, or make it a juicier title. Why
God endorses genocide in the Bible? All right, so let's look
at Genesis chapter six, and we'll go to verse one. When
human beings began to increase in number on the earth, and
daughters were born to them, the sons of God, so that the daughters
of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they
chose. Now, that there, sons of God, let's just pull this up.
Let me screen share with you. This is just so you can see,
this is what I do when I'm going to research something a little
bit deeper. So I just read it in the NIV, right? Get a screen
share here. I just read that in the NIV. Now let's go a bit
deeper. Genesis six, and we're going to go to Bible Hub, just
so that we can look at a whole bunch of different translations
all at the same time. We'll make it specific, Genesis six, verse
two. And we're going to check Genesis six, verse two out in
Bible Hub. The sons of God, that's what we want to look at,
as sons of God. What's going on here? Who are these sons of God?
So NIV says the sons of God, NLT says sons of God, ESV says sons
of God, sons of God, sons of God. Okay, everyone's saying
sons of God. Who are these sons of God referring to? Okay, now
here's an interesting thing. God's Word translation, oh,
sorry. Good News translation picks up on something different
here. Now this is just interesting. Some of the heavenly
beings saw that these young women were beautiful. Okay, so
that's just like, oh, that's interesting. Why did they
translate it as some heavenly beings? Additional
translations. So we're just exploring this now. Okay,
looking at the different translations, pretty much
everyone's saying, sons of God, sons of God, sons of God,
there's just one that says heavenly beings so far. On
international standard, they also translate as some divine
beings. Okay, right, that's interesting. So the next thing
that we're going to do is we're going to go to Blue Letter
Bible. Okay, so Blue Letter Bible. So this is what we're
going to do. And we're going to look at it in the Hebrew. So
we're going to go Isaiah. So we're just going to go Genesis
6. I'm just showing you how I do Bible study and how I do
research on things if I want to go deeper. Genesis 6 and then
just type in BLB for Blue Letter Bible. See Blue Letter Bible,
it's going to come up. There's also different translations you
can look at. It's the King James. It doesn't matter what
English translation you look at because we're just going for the
Hebrew anyway. Try and go a little bit deeper. Okay, so
there's Genesis 6. I'm going to click on that. The sons of God.
So here we go. Let's click this. Ben, that's the Hebrew word
Ben, that's me. Ben means son, Elohim. But let's just click on
this phrase and see if there's anything deeper there. Just a
minute. Right. Okay. We're not picking up on too much there.
Not picking up on too much extra there. We obviously know that
there's a little bit more that there's a translation that's
accurate. That could be sons of God or divine beings. Okay, so
that's just something interesting there that we can
read. We won't go too deep on that right now. We'll stop the
screen share just to let you know. Okay, so there's something
going on here. There's sons of God or some divine beings or some
divine beings called the sons of God. Let's look at that. It's
important. So it's going more into the context to try and
understand that. So these sons of God saw that the daughters of
humans were beautiful. So it's interesting there is rather the
daughters of humans. So you're seeing that this is actually
you're not, it's not talking about humans. Okay. That's a
really important thing to realize here is that there's not
talking about humans. They saw that the daughters of humans
were beautiful, and they married any of them that they chose.
Okay, right. Then the Lord said, My spirit will not contend with
humans forever.
they are immortal, their days will be 120 years.
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days
and also afterward.
Okay, so that's interesting.
What is a Nephilim?
The Nephilim were, huh?
What's a Nephilim?
Weren't they fallen angels?
No, a Nephilim was not a fallen angel.
James.
Yes, they were giants, but what was going on?
Where did the Nephilim come from?
What were the Nephilim?
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Okay, let's just go around real quick.
Is someone going to say something there?
A mixed breed.
A mixed breed, who said that?
Chrisma.
Oh, Chrisma, yes, hang on, there you are.
They were a mixed breed.
Let's keep reading, good stuff.
So this mixed breed, a mixed breed of what?
They were a mixed breed of a divine being
and the daughters of humans.
So this is a hybrid of some sort.
We can explore this, but it's not a hybrid.
It's some sort of hybrid between a spiritual being
and a human being that's produced some type
of spiritual human hybrid.
And the result is that the earth turns to a level
of extreme wickedness that has never been seen before.
And it comes to such a degree of wickedness
that God can't tolerate it anymore.
So that's what we're looking at.
And so this is a hybrid of a divine being
and so it says that the Nephilim were on the earth
in those days and also afterward.
That's important, in those days and also afterward.
When the sons of God went to the daughters of humans
and had children by them, they were the heroes of old,
men of renown.
That's like your Goliaths.
So what he had in those days before the flood
is he had lots and lots of people like Goliaths, giants.
Now, if you actually, it's really interesting
if you want to study giants, even like skeletons of giants,
giant history, there is so many giant skeletons
all around the world, giant civilizations.
There are a huge number of giant civilizations
archeologically that you can just see, it's everywhere.
They're just all over the world, giant skeletons.
It's not like mainstream publicized,
it always gets kind of hidden in the background,
but it's everywhere if you look into it.
So this is really interesting, okay?
So we've got a hybrid race here
that is turning the whole earth to extreme wickedness.
This is crazy.
So the Lord saw how great the wickedness
of the human race had become on the earth
and that every inclination of the thoughts
of the human heart was only evil all the time.
Welcome, Jill, good to have you with us.
And I see Lottie and Janine, beautiful people in Christmas.
Welcome everyone that's jumping in partway.
Now, if you're jumping in partway,
we're into something very juicy
and you might want to catch some of the replay
to get some context, but it's great to have you with us.
You might just have to hold on for the ride.
So the Lord saw how great the wickedness
of the human race had become on the earth
and that every inclination of the thoughts
of the human heart was only evil all the time.
That's pretty intense, nasty context.
And you can imagine that there's a lot of oppression,
a lot of injustice, extreme levels of abuse,
you can imagine what that society looks like.
You can imagine what families look like.
You can imagine what it's like to be a victim
in that context, it's going to be a nasty place.
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings
on the earth and his heart was deeply troubled.
So the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth
the human race I have created and with them,
the animals, the birds, the creatures
and the creatures that move along the ground
for I regret that I have made them,
but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Now, I'm just gonna look up one more thing for you,
so give me a second.
Okay, so verse nine,
the Lord said, I will wipe from the face of the earth
The NIB just said Noah was a righteous man. I'm going to share my screen with you again.
Let's do another little screen share here. Let's go a little bit deeper on this. Okay,
so we're going to do Bible Hub again on Genesis 6-9.
And just look at a bunch of different translations and see what a bunch of translations say.
So I've got a Bible Hub for that. Boom, there we go. Bible Hub, Genesis 6-9. We're going to have
lots of translations pop up here. NIB, Noah was a righteous man. Righteous man, blameless. See,
it says blameless among the people of his time. The only blameless person. And then ESV says
blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. King James said and perfect in his generations.
Berean said blameless in his generations. Perfect in his generations. A righteous man,
blameless in his generation. Blameless in his generation. But see, this is actually not talking,
this, what it's really talking about, it was actually perfect in his genealogy.
That's what it's actually, that's, I won't go into it too much deeper now,
but what it's actually talking about, it's talking about Noah's bloodline.
That Noah was from a pure bloodline. Because what we're talking about here and what we're
exploring in Genesis 6 is, sorry, just to give a little bit of context to Jill and other people
who are just jumping on partway through the conversation, we're talking about right now
our image of God and we're talking about whether or not we can take, we've basically talked about,
we have to secure that our image of God is first rooted in Christ and we ground our image of God
in Christ and then we can go from that place of knowing that Christ is the full revelation of the
Father, he's the full revelation of God. And when we're in that place and we're not questioning,
we're not questioning the things that we read in the Old Testament where we get our
revelation of God from, we're not asking, is God a genocidal maniac? When the Bible talks about
God endorsing genocide, we secure our image of God in Christ and from that theological high ground
that Christ is God, we then explore for understanding the difficult, challenging
passages and some of the crazy things. So we're looking at Genesis 6 now, a place where God
is endorsing genocide and it's not just one, it's not just like a race of like, okay, I want to get
rid of Spanish people, it was like, I actually want to get rid of the human race. This is a
pretty extreme level of genocide that God's endorsing and he wants to wipe out the human
race but why? So exploring the context of that and the context of that is that if you want to
really understand this, a good place to read is the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch gives a lot
more context on this, which is, there were a group of 200 watcher angels, they were called watcher
angels, that were left on the earth to protect humanity, right? This is what the Sons of God
was talking about, or divine beings as it's called, a group of watcher angels, about 200
watcher angels that were on the earth to protect humanity. They were there to be, you know, to be
stewards, to look out for humanity, okay? And what did they do? Instead of looking out for humanity,
it says, they saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful and they married any of them they chose.
So they created a, and for those watcher angels, they, when they did that, they stepped into darkness.
So those watcher angels, yes, they became fallen angels. They weren't fallen angels, they were
angels that were there designated to be protecting humanity. They turned and they decided they wanted
to breed with these guys and depending on who you talk to, there's different things about what
they're jealous of, you know? Some people will say that the thing that they're really jealous of,
of the humans, is not their beauty, but they actually wanted their inheritance.
Because they can see the inheritance of humanity as the actual Sons of God was greater than the
inheritance of, you know, that they were lined up for. You could explore that. These things that
we're exploring now, a little bit of reading between the lines and on, and you can do your
own research on them. I'm just saying, here's what I've learned in the process of digging deeper on
this, is that there's more to it than that's just written right there. You just do your
own processing on this. I've done lots of processing on this. You can take it.
like it there's some key points that we can see here that are just black and white in the bible
there's a divine being of some sort which i'm saying with the watcher angels you could find
another label for them the bible says they're a divine being they're called sons of god there but
they're definitely not a human being a different type of being they bred with humans for some
reason you can explore whatever reason or motivation they had for that and the result
was Nephilim and the result of Nephilim in the earth so the Nephilim we have to understand and
be very very clear that a Nephilim is a hybrid of a dark spiritual entity and a human being
so i i don't know the genetics of that but all we can tell from this is that it is possible
for a spiritual dark entity to produce offspring through a human and that offspring will be called
a Nephilim which is a human it's not really a demon it's a it's a fallen i would just call it
a fallen angel in the sense i think someone might have said it a fallen angel they are a fallen
angel they were watcher angels they were there and that that part of it like i said that's in
the book of enoch you can do your own exploring of it um of what how you want to perceive that you
can do your own research on it but then these Nephilim they were men of great renown so they
were like the liars so they had exceptional powers and they were exceptionally wicked
and they were so wicked that the entire human race turned to extreme depravity
and it said it got to the point of such extreme depravity that it got down to the
point where noah was the only man in respect who was pure in his genetics
so noah was the only guy left who wasn't corrupted by the Nephilim seed that exploded so this hasn't
happened over 10 days you know this has happened over a process of decades it could have even been
centuries unfolding here this is a long time that this has happened we don't have exact timelines
here but we can understand this is a long time it's changed the entire culture of all humanity
on the earth gets to the point where noah is the only guy left whose bloodlines aren't contaminated
by by this Nephilim hybrid and god like yoink i'm gonna save you out of this noah
but it's really critical to notice as well that it says uh the Nephilim were on the earth in those
days and also afterward so you can do your own exploring of how but the reality is is that they
were not wiped out by the flood the purpose of the flood was to get rid of the Nephilim
which was a human demon hybrid were human and fallen angel hybrid that had taken over the
planet and created on the planet extreme anarchy and chaos and at that point god saved one guy
whose genetics weren't corrupted and said you know what i right now i endorse genocide
and i'm going to wipe out the human race and he did somehow you can do your own research on that
the evidence is that they survived because the anarchy right the anarchy which is the giants
the anarchy were the descendants of the Nephilim and so where did the anarchy live
where were the anarchy so the anarchy were the descendants of the Nephilim
where did they all live they all lived in Canaan
right so where did god send his people he brought them out of
Egypt and where did he send them he sent them again as an army to wipe out the Nephilim
men women and children why he was wiping out a bloodline on the earth that had he didn't want
to get to the state that it got again where it got to in genesis 6 so why is god endorsing
genocide is it because god is a is god a genocidal maniac or was something crazy going
on here where you had human demon hybrids who were turning the earth into a place of extreme
corruption and chaos and the answer is yes you know goliath wasn't the only giant around there
were plenty of giants around there it said that you know david uh he killed goliath but he raised
up you know most people noticed david rising up raised up a whole army of giant slayers they
hunted giants
That's what they would do, they hunted giants and he had,
Goliath himself had four brothers that were giants and David's men killed them all.
They killed the four brothers of Goliath and that's why some people say David picked up five stones,
one for Goliath and one for each of his brothers, because there was five brothers.
You know, Goliath had four brothers and they were all giants and eventually David's men killed them all.
You can go through and read the accounts, all of those giants got killed.
So what you have is you had in Canaan a bloodline that, and that's why,
so I think that's kind of covered it now,
but that was a big question that you asked Heike about, you know,
how do we understand the wrath of God?
Is God a genocidal maniac?
No, he's not a genocidal maniac, but you've got to ask yourself,
how would you deal with a, you know, a fallen angel human hybrid that was only bent on wickedness,
that was going to plunge the earth into levels of anarchy and chaos that were just unimaginable.
Annihilate them.
Listen, that's the two times that you see God endorsing genocide,
and it's only ever in the context of the Nephilim that he was like, no, we've got to deal with this.
And there's some really interesting books out now as well,
if you wanted to look up interesting dynamics on the Nephilim as well.
So that would probably be for another day, because, hey, Patty, see you later.
So, yeah, you can explore that topic more.
There are some, there are a couple of good books out on that.
There is one called The Nephilim Agenda, if you want to explore that further.
The Nephilim Agenda by Randy Domaine.
OK, so Randy Domaine is a minister from America.
He was a pastor for a long, long time and he's had a lot of deliverance.
So he's worked with a lot of people in terms of deliverance issues, freedom issues.
And I won't go too much deeper on that just to let you know.
Very interesting conversation there around Randy Domaine's book, The Nephilim Agenda.
Yeah, so that's a bit of a sidetrack, but it's a really important one because for a lot of people,
those moments, they can never shake their image of God off of him being a genocidal maniac.
They can never leave behind this concept that God is anything other than just a ruthless, bloodletting God.
And it's really hard to read those chapters where God endorses sending in the army to wipe out men, women and children.
Just very, very difficult to understand that.
And why isn't God sending in the army now to wipe out men, women and children?
Has God's nature changed?
Did Jesus change God's nature or do we not quite have the same scenarios right now?
I would suggest that the nature of God never changed.
That the fall corrupted humanity and not God.
And that the cross was there to redeem humanity and not God.
That God's wrath didn't need to be satisfied.
And you want to follow the teachings that we've been doing on this about God's ability to forgive.
If you believe that God is fully seen in Christ, then if you believe what Jesus said about himself,
that it was the Father in him doing his work, then you see that Jesus effortlessly forgave people before the cross.
He just walked around forgiving sins like it was nothing.
We'll take one more question. That was a big question.
We spent over an hour on that question.
I'll tack on to it this, and this is for another day as well.
But probably the next one that people don't talk about, but it impacts our image of God more than we realize.
And often subconsciously and unconsciously and not necessarily consciously.
biggest one probably, the biggest thing that influences people's image of God, I don't know,
I would say it's not the biggest, but it's one of the biggest, is our interpretation of hell.
You know, what do you understand hell to be? And people get really scared about talking about
hell, and not many people talk about hell, but hell is something that we have to have
some conversations about. Yeah, that was another question I had.
Well, who here, who here that's listening, whether you're watching on Facebook or not,
who here thinks that our image of hell might,
who thinks that our image of God, you know, our understanding of hell might influence
what we think God's nature is like? Who's wrestled with it? Who's wrestled with it in
their own thinking of like, how does God and hell fit together? How does this work?
You know, who's ever, who's ever, who's ever had more than one perspective of hell presented to
you? You know, so, you know, like, if you would, if you were to explore like the Catholic,
you know, understanding of hell, is the Catholics have different, different types of hell, you know,
like they have purgatory as well, which is, that's just a time and a season of purification,
that go through that purgatory process. Then you have, then you have some of the, you know,
like the reformed views on hell, where God is actually the one that pre-designed people before
they were born. He, he pre-designed for people that he was going to send them to hell, and that
all the torments and the tortures that they suffer there, they're not being, you know, like God is
the one that is inflicting the torture, and not only is God the one inflicting the torture, God
takes pleasure in inflicting unending, unspeakable torture, just throughout eternity, that that's
what pleases God. Can you see how, you know, like your understanding of hell might really
shape your image of what you think God's like? So it's a, it's a big deal, right? If you think God
created people before time, and his whole purpose was to send them to hell,
and bearing in mind that, you know, if you were looking at, at hell through that reform, like
Calvinistic lens, they believe that if God, if you were a reproduct, reprobate, right? So if you
were a reprobate, that means that before time began, God created you for the purpose of sending
you to hell, and that you would never have any chance of even knowing him, of even repenting,
because he pre-designed you to send you to hell, that's why he created you, and that he would be
the one that was initiating the torture, and that that unending, unspeakable torture would bring him
delight through eternity. Can you imagine how that would mess people's image of God up? Like,
how could you think that that God is anything other than a demon? To me, that's the most sadistic,
evil, corrupt image of God that you could imagine, but those images of hell, and those images of God
have been ingrained in church thinking for centuries, and that kind of concept of eternal
torment, you know, just unspeaking, unending, eternal torment, where you're being tortured forever,
that has, you know, just, it's had different degrees of intensity, or insanity,
or, you know, around it, and so, you know, we've got to ask ourselves, you know, like,
are we taking, you know, what if some of those images of God, or perspectives around hell,
aren't correct, and what if we've taken our image of God off an image of hell that isn't accurate?
I would just flat out say that
you know the the concept of God pre-designing people to go to hell forever and him being the
instigator of their torment and suffering I would flat out say that is that is so destructive and
so evil and so wrong um but people don't want to talk about hell because of their fear of
universalism right so universalism we're kind of going sidetracked off from where I wanted to go
but it's actually all really interconnected and really relevant conversation um universalism
during the great awakening so during the great awakening in the 1800s with uh who was our main
man there um Charles Finney so during that time the camp revivals uh it was a massive time of
awakening for America in America and one of the groups that emerged during that great awakening
was not a Christian group it kind of started as a Christian group but it became not a Christian
group it was called Unitarianism okay so Unitarianism developed ultimately to Unitarian
Universalism and it's not a Christian doctrine but it kind of had some Christian origins and
originally and it kind of fled up in that time where there's a lot of God
move of God happening um but Unitarian Universalism is a it's not a Christian
movement right it's not Christian but people kind of associate it with Christian because of its roots
but it's not a Christian anything right it's a Christless salvation so Unitarian Universalism
is a Christless salvation where you can believe in Buddha or you can believe in penguins or you
can believe in whatever you like and all roads lead to heaven and there's no Christ involved in
that and that's not that's never been a Christian belief it's never been in the spectrum of Christian
belief um and so but people get terrified to talk about hell because all of a sudden they think that
you're talking about a Christless salvation and so they it's a difficult conversation
but it's also a really significant and important conversation to have just to siphon through all
the different images we have of hell and go are some of these accurate or are some of these slightly
off um but most of the time people don't go there and don't touch it because of the fear of being
labeled a Unitarian or a Universalist um which a Universalist like there's there within the
Christian spectrum of doctrine I'm not saying that you I'm saying Unitarian Universalism is
not in the it's not Christian right there's nothing in there that's that's biblical it's
not Christian at all um but within the Christian spectrum um of history and theology
there has been um you know there's been lots of dynamic and lots of different images and
for the last 2000 years of church history and theology there's been a lot of conversation
around hell around salvation so I'll just I'll leave it at that for now but I'll say
we're just trying to like kind of put it up there that it's an important
topic to explore sometime because for a lot of people I'm not saying for everyone but for a lot
of people they take more revelation of who God is from what you believe about hell than what you
believe about Christ so for some people that's where they get their understanding of God they
go so do you believe that he's going to send me to hell and if you say yeah God created you to
send you to hell that's right there is where they're going to take their understanding of
the nature of God so just so and then for a lot of Christians as well their image of hell is what
defines their understanding of the nature of God so it is an area that needs to be explored we
can't explore it today but um we can explore that more going forward just some of the questions
around that so I hope that's helpful just for now any thoughts on that any just any kind of
chatter around this no I really appreciate it Benji
oh welcome you're welcome really appreciate it
I Benji may I ask something I mean I don't believe it but a friend of mine has taken that passage in
Romans about the object for wrath
or something like that. I can't remember exactly where it is, but some were created as objects for
Roth. Yeah, so I would like you to, at any stage, I don't know if it's now a good time, but just to
go maybe deeper into that, because I've tried to do that on my own.
Well, first of all, if she's done a deep study on, just first of all, if she's done a deep study on
that, and we already talked about this in the session, but the Greek word meaning Roth is
the Greek word orgae, which is where we get the word orgasm. All right, so first of all,
you have to question her if she knows what that word even means that she's studying.
You know, I guarantee you that she hasn't actually even gone deep enough to realize
that the word she's studying does not mean God's hatred. They're not objects of God's hatred,
right? And even if you look at this in John 3, you know, for God to love the world
that he gave his only son, then it goes on and says, you know, those that did not receive him,
his Roth remained on them. You know, that's how John 3 finishes up, his Roth remained on them.
But what does this Roth mean? Right? It's the Greek word is orgae. It does not mean hatred.
How wrong would it be to translate the word orgasm as hatred?
Does that sound like it's kind of supposed to mean hatred?
Right? It's not. It means intense emotion, intense desire to the point of, it's like
intense desire, like where one is reaching out and desiring something with so much intensity
that they're shaking. Desiring something to the point of shaking is what the word Roth means.
So this is why I was highlighting and emphasizing before that you can't separate
Roth from love. Roth is not something different from love. Roth is an expression of love.
It always is, always has been. God's Roth is always an expression of his love.
And when we have already answered the question that Jesus is the full expression of God,
if that question is settled and we explore our questions from the theological high ground
that Jesus is the exact revelation of the father, then we can explore those questions
without accusing God, without putting God on trial, without doubting God. Because when we
explore, like your friend, I don't know your friend, but if she's exploring that,
I'm studying the objects of Roth. Have you? Cool. That's cool. But have you studied the objects of
Roth in the context of putting God on trial and assuming that you're going to find a revelation
of God that you're not going to find in Christ? She's going to come to the wrong conclusion.
Doesn't matter how much research she does. She's already set herself up for failure.
She's actually gone the opposite direction. She's accusing us of hyper-grace.
She's accusing you of hyper-grace. Yeah. But the reason she's accusing you of hyper-grace
is because of her conclusion of the revelation of God. The only reason she will accuse you
of hyper-grace is because her image of God refuses to allow her to acknowledge,
or to shift from the point where she thinks that God's desire for justice demands him to punish,
and his justice is about punishing rather than redeeming.
It's all of this whole thing flows out of her image of God. Her image of a God of Roth,
that's where it all flows from. Her whole mindset will all be around
propitiation. Her theology will be baptized in propitiation. She won't even know about
or understand or have any context for expiation. She won't even know that propitiation, that Jesus
wasn't a propitiatory sacrifice. She won't even know that propitiation is not a New Testament
concept. She has welded an Old Testament concept of propitiation with a New Testament sacrifice
of expiation and come to the wrong conclusion. The reason she's come to the wrong conclusion
is because she's explored her theology. All of her theology has come from putting God on trial.
She's not started her theological exploration.
from the high point where Christ is the full revelation of God, and I'm not going to find
anything else out about God that I don't find in Christ.
All right.
So she hasn't started from the theological high ground of Christ is the father.
It wasn't just Jesus on the cross, it was the father on the cross.
Jesus said, it's the father in me doing his work.
I am the father of one.
Going up to the cross, Jesus prophesied that God wasn't going to leave him.
So what I'm saying is, she'll only be accusing you of hyper-grace because of her image of
God, and because her image of God is something that she has discovered outside of Christ.
She won't say that, but I'm saying that because I've spent so much time with so many people
who believe the exact same thing.
Now, another thing that anytime anyone accuses you of hyper-grace, they don't understand
grace because the Paul himself described grace as hyper-grace.
So biblical grace only has one form, and that is hyper-grace.
So Michael Brown, who wrote the book Hyper-grace, did his own intelligence a disservice by calling
the book hyper-grace.
He should have called it something else, because the biblical term for grace is hyper-grace,
and that's coined by Paul in the Bible.
So Michael Brown, who wrote the book Hyper-grace, he should have labeled it something else.
He should have called it, like if he was trying to attack that perspective, he should not
have called it hyper-grace, because that's what Paul called grace.
He should have called it perverted grace or something.
If he wanted to say that someone had corrupted grace, he should have called it corrupted
grace or perverted grace, not hyper-grace, because there's only one type of biblical
grace, and that's hyper-grace.
So if someone's accusing you of hyper-grace, first of all, if someone accuses you of hyper-grace,
the first thing you should say is, yes, I believe in hyper-grace because that's the
only type of grace in the Bible.
So first of all, yes, you should always agree with that accusation, because that's the only
type of biblical grace there is.
You won't find in the Bible, you won't find any watered-down grace, that sort of thing.
There is some validity to the concept that Michael Brown is highlighting in his book
Hyper-grace, which is that some people, which is what Paul was talking about in Romans 6-7-8,
people using grace as justification to sin.
There's validity in that, in saying, okay, there's a problem when people say that because
you're under grace, you can do whatever you like and you can be a sinner.
If people use grace as justification for dysfunction, that's a problem.
Yeah, totally agree.
If people are using grace as a justification for living in dysfunction, that is a problem.
No problem with that.
My problem is, if you call grace anything less than hyper-grace, because grace doesn't
have a watered-down version in the Bible, and grace doesn't have a watered-down version
in our lives, you only have an extreme hyper-grace version of grace.
So I have a problem with the title, hyper-grace, being a problem.
I'm like, someone accuses you of hyper-grace, align with that, agree with that, because
that's the biblical version of grace.
Now, what she's probably referring to in hyper-grace is actually where we are going
with this whole question of where we're trying to get to with this Q&A.
What she's referring to as hyper-grace is that she refuses to come into agreement,
and this is Michael Brown's perspective as well.
Michael Brown's perspective, who wrote that book, is Arminianism, right?
So Arminianism is that, basically, your identity, your sonship, was not from before the foundation
of the world.
So you see, this is where I'm coming from, is I will not budge on this, is that we were
made in the image of God in the beginning, and that never changed.
But for Michael Brown, and those who are a part of Arminianism...
they believe that once you believe you're a son is when you become a son, okay?
The problem with that is that
you end up living like I did for my whole life because I used to believe that, right?
You end up living
under performance-based everything. Everything becomes performance-based.
With that mindset, the truth isn't true before you believe it. The truth becomes,
like, your identity only becomes true once you believe it. Does that make sense?
In Arminianism, you're a dirty rotten sinner until you start following Jesus and then you,
all of a sudden, your identity changes as you're not a dirty rotten sinner anymore.
Now you're a son of God and now God's your father, but before he wasn't your father
and before you weren't a son. I'll bring it all back to Acts 17 where Paul made this statement.
He's preaching the gospel. Acts 17, 27, 28, he says,
in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, we are all his
offspring. This is Paul preaching the gospel. If you've been following me, you've heard me say this
an unlimited amount of times because it's the big point of difference between what I'm saying
versus what most of us grew up in. The big point of difference of what I'm saying is Paul never
preached the gospel as an opportunity for you to change your identity. He always preached your
identity as a present reality. Let me try and create some contrast here. Arminianism,
which is where Michael Brown is, where most of the church in the West is,
it says that the premise of the gospel is that you're a sinner and you're distant from God
and you need to repent and get born again so you can become a son of God
and so you can get close to God. That's what most of us grew up with. That's not what Paul
preached. Not even close. It's the exact opposite of what Paul preached. Paul preached to the people
in Acts 17 and they were Greeks and the Arapagos. They were people who were famous for all sorts of
ridiculous sexual perversion. The Greeks were having sex with animals. They were pedophiles.
They celebrated pedophilia. They were blood sacrificing demon worshipping sinners who we
would say are as far from God as you could imagine. When Paul speaks to them, there's no
mention of separation. There's no mention of them being sinners. He calls them right from the outset.
His whole declaration all the way is always a declaration of present reality. He's saying this
is who you are. You are God's children. He's your papa and you are one with him and you always have
been. He's saying this is who you truly are. This is who you always have been. This is who you always
will be and this is the gospel. This is the truth about you and then what happened is some people
believed the truth. They had an awakening of truth. They're like wow. They believed and the truth became
powerful in their lives and set them free from darkness and their lives were radically transformed.
So Paul understood that the truth was only powerful in someone's life if they believed it.
So this is him. So in our point of today was about the illusion of separation.
So Paul spoke to these people who were as far from God as you could imagine
and he said to them in him we live and move and have our being
and have our being as a present reality right there in that moment in your darkness.
What he's saying is your darkness is an illusion. Your separation is an illusion.
Your separation is illusion. Illusion is not reality. Reality is oneness with God
and for those who believe guess what they stepped into the fruition of that.
Those who didn't believe they stayed in their darkness.
Now if you believe in separation it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you believe that you are one with God, that you are seamlessly one with the trinity, if you believe
that, well then you are one with God.
what will happen is the truth will set you free from the illusion of separation. The truth will
set you free from the darkness of separation. Because separation is a lie. Separation is an
illusion. Now I would lay down my life for that. What was that?
Did someone ask me a question or was that just a random
no no one's asking a question there.
Okay all right so so that's yeah that's what Michael Brown would lay his life down for is that
separation is real and I say no it's an illusion and the truth will wake you up from that illusion
and so people who align with hyper grace they want to make you believe that your separation
is a real thing you really are distant and disconnected and far from God and it's the
exact opposite of what Paul preached which is in him you live and move and have your being.
So the the point of what I want to get to really about this session what this session is about
and it'll be an ongoing session an ongoing conversation ongoing question it's going to
be an ongoing thing for us is that the whole point of it is about the fact that separation
is an illusion. You couldn't get right now you're as one with God as you can be.
The thing that can change is how much agreement you place with that reality.
If you're only 20 percent in agreement with that reality you'll only have 20 percent experience of
that reality. If you're at 100 percent agreement with that reality you'll have 100 percent experience
of that reality. So remember we've got conscious subconscious unconscious beliefs
and the renewed mind changes things from a conscious subconscious unconscious level.
So if we renew our minds the only thing that's in between you and living in a 24-7 experience of
oneness with God and seamless union with God the only thing in between you and that is a renewed mind.
So a renewed mind a renewed mind has no concept of separation.
All a renewed mind knows is oneness.
To a renewed mind seamless union with the seamless union with the trinity is reality and there's no
exceptions. And here's how that benefits you is because I bet some days you wake up and you don't
feel one with God. But if you've got room in your theology and your beliefs that can endorse the
fact that you could be far from God then the gap widens right. So if you wake up in the morning you
feel I'm not very far I don't feel kind of far from God today I feel disconnected from God today.
If your mindset endorses separation then what can happen is you can just start feeling like
you're drifting away. But if you have no room no concept or no agreement with separation
you wake up in the morning feeling separated and actually you laugh because you're like well what
an illusion that's a lie and then you just remind you just remind yourself of your agreement with
oneness. And to be honest what actually happens is when you really have renewed your mind
what happens is you almost never even have the feeling of separation.
So in my past I used to feel separation all the time. Now I'm forgetting what it feels like to feel
separated. And the only thing that was that's changed is a higher degree of the renewed mind.
But more renewed mind like the more you renew your mind it changes your entire state of being.
It changes your entire state of being. So what I'm much more likely to experience is instead of
waking up and feeling distant from God is rolling over in the middle of the night and just having a
fleeting glimpse of consciousness and being over like just being consciously aware of
oneness even just for like just wake up for a second ah oneness basically.
It becomes a perpetual state of being that is effortless. There's no effort.
required once, because the hard work is in renewing your mind,
put to death the lie of separation, go deep into your
conscious, subconscious, unconscious mindset, put to
death all those lies that endorse separation, put all that
to death, wrestle with your image of hell, wrestle with your
image of God, wrestle with the hard scriptures, wrestle with
your own experiences of feeling separated, wrestle with your own
experiences of feeling inadequate, wrestle with your
friend who's done a study on the rock of God and thinks they're
amazing, wrestle, wrestle with a book with a dumb title called
Hypergrace, wrestle, wrestle, wrestle, and then come to the
conclusion where your mind has been renewed. And you can't be
shaken from the reality that you are seamlessly one with God. And
that is that's what defines reality. Oneness defines
reality and everything else is an illusion. Come to that place
where your mind is that renewed. And then guess what? All the
hard work is done. And the fruit is effortless union. Because the
hard work is in renewing our minds. And once the mind is
renewed, there's no more battle. Because that's the battle zone,
right? You wrestle with it, you put to death the illusion of
separation, and then guess what you experience after that? No
more illusion. You're now defined by oneness.
Well, any other questions, guys? I'm just going to wrap up for
today. Comments, wrap up thoughts, any feedback?
I think kind of what you're saying is, is abiding in Christ,
like always having him on your mind, always, always knowing he's
there, like all the time, that that kind of the abiding is the
same as what your mind is renewed to know he's always with
you.
Yeah. And not just that he's always with you, but there's no
distance. The fullness of who he is. Yeah. So that's what
abiding looks like, right? Abiding looks like a constant
participation in the divine life. So when you're abiding,
what are you? You're connected to the divine and all the light
of the divine is flowing through you. So the fullness of the
divine light, that's an unending resource of divine ecstasy and
bliss and unspeakable glory, is the light that is constantly
flowing into you effortlessly. He's not just with you, he
defines you. He's not just near you. There's no separation, you
are one. Yeah, so absolutely, that's what abiding is. Abiding
is enjoying on a moment by moment basis, a perpetual basis,
the fullness of the richness of the divine light, baptizing your
entire body, soul and spirit on a moment by moment basis, in
the most exquisite levels of love and joy and glory and
ecstasy that you could ever imagine. It's good luck. It's a
good life. Yeah, so abiding right on, that's exactly what it
is. Any other thoughts there team? We're gonna wrap it up in
a minute. Be cool just to hear some thoughts and feedback. It's
been a big session. We've gone all over the world.
Hello, Benji? Yes, thank you so much. This was such a deep and
profound and enlightening session that you did. I'm not
afraid to look at it and really delve into the deep things that
are not being talked about. It's refreshing. It's so
refreshing. There's nothing scary. There's no fear in the
word. There's no fear in God. There's only the fear of the
Lord who leads us further into the Lord. I just so appreciate
this session that you did. Oh, I love it. I'm full. I'm
overflowing. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Welcome. Was there something that for you was like, Oh, that
was a real cool takeaway?
Um, yes, absolutely. It was. Well, we already know.
about the grace, but the people in our circles are not, um, I'm trying to be very loving.
They're not really in support of our, of your view, let's put it this way.
My view is your, you know, what we believe is what you believe, because the Lord has
revealed that through very deep, intense relationship and study and, you know, just kind of like
the words to say to somebody in love, that's what I took away.
It's not that you're arguing with a person, it's that you're like having a real conversation
and say, Hey, well, do we really, if we're going to talk about it, let's actually talk
about it.
Let's not fight about it.
Let's, you know, and then the words that you use, that's kind of my takeaway of, you know,
engaging another person that doesn't for whatever reason, you know, their view of the Lord is
it your view of, of the Lord because of their circumstances or their trauma or their, you
know, their own experience with church, it's really, you know, God equals what they experienced
in church.
And that's a, not a good, that's unhealthy, you know, to base your whole view and perspective
of God on your experience with church.
So I just, that's my takeaway.
I really appreciate, you know, the, the language that you used, you know, from a person that
really, you know, I don't want to offend.
So a lot of times I don't say anything and then people think I agree with them and I
really don't agree with you, but I don't want to offend you.
So you know, so I, I really appreciate that part.
It was so good.
Just the grace part, you know, the hell part I haven't, you really didn't go into a whole
lot of detail on that.
So I don't have really anything, although I'm very open to this person we listened to,
we called it, put it on your later on file, you know, anything you don't understand, put
it in your later on file.
And so I have so many things in my later on file and I just know we're going to cover
it.
And so I'm very excited and looking forward to where we're going and the direction that
we're in.
Cool.
Who would like to do a study on the Christian spectrum of belief around hell over the last
2000 years?
Should we explore that?
Should we cover that into origins of the gospel and where that came from and what the church
has taught about hell and what the church has taught about salvation?
Yeah?
Okay.
Well, we'll cover that, but get ready.
I'm even going to have to tell you about a man who cut off his own balls to preach the
gospel.
That'll be interesting, isn't it?
Hey, there was a, there was one of the church fathers cut off his own testicles in order
to be enabled to preach the gospel.
That's a price to pay.
So we'll have to, we'll have to find out who that guy was and why he was so passionate
about the gospel that he'd do that.
Okay.
Well, we'll put that into this 12 week masterclass as well.
We'll cover that.
Hey, Dawn, I know you're just there in the background.
Just the thing that I would say to you about that is something we've talked about before
is the, you know, Jesus gave us a lot to think about in the parable of the sower, you know,
because the parable of the sower was more about the quality of the soil than the seed,
right?
Yeah.
And we need to think about that ourselves as well.
We need to be really thinking about the quality of our own soil because the seed is the seed
of the divine life and the divine life, you know, like we might think we're good soil,
but the evidence of whether or not we're good soil is, are we living in seamless union with
the Trinity and are we a perpetual overflow of the divine life?
So I think sometimes we think we're better soil than we are.
And the reason we sometimes think we're better soil than we are is because we don't realise
how good the promise is, right?
So we're walking in 2% of the promise thinking we're doing amazing, but really we're like
the rocky ground because we haven't realised that actually we're not living in 98% of the
promise because we didn't realise it was so good.
And that's why so much of this process over the next 12 weeks is about us looking after
our own soil.
you know us us preparing the soil of our own hearts to receive what we've never been able
to receive before, to renew what we've never been able to renew before, to go deeper than
we've ever been able to go before and so with our you know with the people around us
they can be different types of soil so throwing our seeds at them can sometimes be
you know we've got to be strategic with where we plant that seed sometimes so
anyway well bless you thanks Dawn, anyone else have a just to wrap up feedback last comments
to say see you later kind of I just sorry I just want to say I've such a positive experience of
church I've negative experiences as well but I have I just want to throw it out there
there are churches that teach us love and they may not have everything right but they
they understand the art of God absolutely I've been a pastor for over a decade and I love it
love church it's amazing yo Kerry are you waving goodbye he's wanting to say something
or you're giving a high five you're on mute so I don't know what you're saying
do you want to unmute Kerry
yeah no you muted you unmuted but you muted again
I'm unmuted now yeah well I said today was just so awesome because I had questions and
you've answered every one of them but the thing that has really impressed me with you and I say
it to people you never come back with a criticism with any you only come back with love and you only
come back to build people up in love and it's just so awesome to have someone in your life
who does that and then we can then produce that as well awesome thank you appreciate that
thank you very much
cool cool Vicky how are you doing I'm doing good anything you wanted to share just as we wrap up
uh no just taking it in very cool good very very good sleep
sleep all right well um we're going to do our next session on Tuesday
uh we'd normally do it tomorrow on a Monday but we did a session today so we'll just we'll do it
on Tuesday and go Tuesday Friday this week um which will be good and um if anyone hasn't got
it on their radar yet we've got the uh raising royalty talent awards happening so we're giving
away 20 000 us dollars to the person who wins the talent quest so you know anyone who's talented you
should keep them in the loop let them know about that go to raisingroyalty.com to jump on board
with that and then we're going to be doing next weekend a three-day royal challenge so starting
this time next week we're going to do a three-day royal challenge we're going to be looking at royal
identity royal vision and royal economics so anyone who wants to be a part of that as well
that'll be happening next weekend i'll let that bless you and see you all soon love you bye bye
hi thank you